Away tickets , fan banned for swap

[Lord Duckhunter]

I thought this may make an interesting discussion .

 

A Man Utd season ticket holder has been banned for applying for tickets for 12 months . The article states that he was ill so didn't attend the Hull game . What I found interesting was the bit that stated " somebody else went but was refused entry" . This poses two questions to me ; How was he caught and does this mean a clampdown is imminent . Obviously the " he was ill" bit gives the story it's emotional hook , but they're obviously looking at people bypassing the buying criteria .

 

My Scouse mate reckons there is a lot of unrest up there regarding people passing tickets on, with a select band of season ticket holders basically becoming touts . I would imagine all the big clubs suffer from this , so maybe the complaints are adding up and the clubs are looking to close this loophole . Since Arnham our club have tightened up on European tickets , will domestic games go the same way?

 

What are people's thoughts?

 

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/1926216/manchester-united-season-ticket-holder-of-over-30-years-has-been-banned-from-away-games-for-a-year-after-he-didnt-tell-the-club-he-was-ill/

[Mr Biscuits]

Guy I used to work with buys two Arsenal season tickets every year. One he uses and the other he sells each game so that he can afford to buy tickets next year. It's the only way he can afford to watch the team he loves.

 

This is what happens when prices rise beyond the means of most football fans.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I wouldn't buy season tickets if I could not lend them to people when we cannot go - I have been once this season. I would also suggest that sometimes companies buy them and let people in the office borrow them.

[The Cat]

Saints have suspended people's accounts for flouting the rules, for example buying kids tickets for adults.

 

People are always lending their season tickets or selling them on a game by game basis when they can't go. I would suggest the club aren't bothered by this unless someone causes trouble in the ground.

[Kenilworthy]

The main point of the story seems to be that they didn't like him not using his ticket. You might understand if he was in the habit of doing it regularly but once is ridiculous. Would they ban someone who missed the game because their car broke down?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Guy I used to work with buys two Arsenal season tickets every year. One he uses and the other he sells each game so that he can afford to buy tickets next year. It's the only way he can afford to watch the team he loves.

 

This is what happens when prices rise beyond the means of most football fans.

 

I know someone who does that but with 13 season tickets. Costs him just under £20k a year!

[Fan The Flames]

Guy I used to work with buys two Arsenal season tickets every year. One he uses and the other he sells each game so that he can afford to buy tickets next year. It's the only way he can afford to watch the team he loves.

 

This is what happens when prices rise beyond the means of most football fans.

 

 

If rising ticket prices are the problem then isn't your friend part of the problem. To make money he would have to sell the tickets at a high rate, if he doesn't it wouldn't really help him cover the costs of watching the club 'that he loves'.

[Sour Mash]

The main point of the story seems to be that they didn't like him not using his ticket. You might understand if he was in the habit of doing it regularly but once is ridiculous. Would they ban someone who missed the game because their car broke down?

The point of the story is that it is an away game to Hull; If you think its become pretty common place for Saints away support to be made up of a large number of people that have got tickets through others season tickets, can you imagine Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal?

 

I think both United and Liverpool have started to implement some sort of checks at away turnstiles which might be how this bloke got caught out, not sure.

[Turkish]

Guy I used to work with buys two Arsenal season tickets every year. One he uses and the other he sells each game so that he can afford to buy tickets next year. It's the only way he can afford to watch the team he loves.

 

This is what happens when prices rise beyond the means of most football fans.

 

What a strange thing to do. Why doesn't he buy one season ticket and save the money he spends buying the other one he sells for next years season ticket?

[VectisSaint]

The main point of the story seems to be that they didn't like him not using his ticket. You might understand if he was in the habit of doing it regularly but once is ridiculous. Would they ban someone who missed the game because their car broke down?

 

Thats what the Scum wants you to understand, but the main point is buried at the end of the piece, he gave his ticket to someone else, and for whatever reason that person was not allowed in. The Scum doesn't add any details about why, perhaps he was someone already barred, who knows. Arguably if he had not giben the ticket away nothing would have happened. Umited also seem to have a decent policy that you can cancel your ticket in such circumstances, of course this is due to there being huge demand for away tickets so they know they can resell.

[proevosaints]

A guy at work is a United ST holder as is his family.

 

According to him a large number of supporters have been buying away tickets for years so are top of the queue for eligibility but sell 90% of them on (not necessarily for profit) but so they are always guaranteed tickets for big away games or away games local to them. (His family are one of the ones doing it so he is well aware of it).

 

Since moving south he no longer attends home games or many aways but his father still uses his ST for others and to purchase every away game.

 

What this has done is created a group that essentially have stopped everyone else getting tickets. Obviously that's not a problem for saints apart from the odd game but for a club like United it's clearly a problem.

 

For around the last 6 months they've been carrying out spot checks and telling these fans that instead of tickets posted they must collect in person with ID. If someone genuinely can't go they must ring/email the club before the game.

 

Obviously this is now flushing out a vast majority of their away support and allowing other supporters to earn their right to go.

 

For me no issue with this - if you're genuinely attending the game then no issue collecting and taking ID. If you're not going why should someone get a ticket just because they know you - much rather it goes to the next in line who deserve it.

[sandwichsaint]

Surely we've seen the ultimate failure of the 'golden ticket' with the San Siro business? I'm sure The9 can come along and add the numbers but the basic scenario is that we draw arguably our biggest game since the Cardiff cup final, with what in the first instance looked like being a much too small allocation.

 

The club set a reasonably high bar for the first round(s) of sales, eg and I don't know the numbers, but for example something like STs plus eg 15 aways and announced there were eg 2000 supporters eligible to purchase in that window, in reality only a quarter or a third(?) of those tickets were sold.

 

While clearly not 'everybody' can make it to Milan on a Thursday evening you would have to think that of our bestest hard core 15-aways-a-season type of supporters that most would move heaven and earth to be there. In actual fact a third bought their own ticket, a third couldn't go, and a third of those tickets are used on rotation by a number of different users and the actual ticket holder didn't take up their own ticket.

 

All very speculative and you can add your own numbers anywhere you like but that's how I think it pans out. Not offering any solutions or judgements, this is the situation as it is and I'm not sure how it can be improved. That Arsenal business sounds absolutely nauseating - buy two tickets, sell the seat next to you at an inflated price either to a regular fan who can't access tickets at face value, or rip off a tourist or a generic plastic PL fan (and then sit by them for the whole game!). I think a little bit more of football has just died right there.

[Professor]

I'm somewhat surprised at the readiness to believe the story in The Sun without any evidence. There could be other explanations as to why another person turned up with Mr Clarke's ticket but whether those were checked out, we do not know. The club has pointed out that he had the rules in front of him and an easy option to let them know he wanted a refund. He hasn't been accused of dishonesty but as a principle it must be right for organisations, including football clubs, to work against the unauthorised resale of tickets.

Ticket prices are set at what the market will bear and if people don't like that, they shouldn't buy, which in time might bring prices down. To condone cheating might seem OK to some until they are the person cheated on. We should reject dishonesty and do all we can to identify it when it happens.

[SO16_Saint]

I know someone who does that but with 13 season tickets. Costs him just under £20k a year!

 

Question is, how much does he make out of it??

[Kingsland Red]

Arsenal gave away season tickets for the Emirates to anyone buying a flat in the Highbury residential development.

A couple of guys I work with are diehard Spuds with season tickets for 'The Lane'. They give their Emirates season tickets away for various to attend games.

 

On another point, I am sure there are away fans from most clubs sitting in seats using season tickets around us in the Kingsland Centre.

[ericb]

I think there's a two fold thing at play here. Quite often people "sharing" their number are doing it on a game by game basis. I know i've shared mine on the occasions that the person who i normally go with can't make it. But normally in those cases it goes to another friend that goes fairly regularly anyway (home and away as much as they can).

 

The ones that really, really get my goat are the lot who buy the away tickets in the first release then IMMEDIATELY sell them on social media accounts. There's a few of these that are very obvious and you'll see them tout their tickets out almost straight away after they've come on sale.

 

Personally i'd like to see Saints as a club monitor accounts like the Saints tickets one on twitter, and if they see someone doing it regularly (since let's be honest there's always a time when people need to get rid of tickets for one reason or another) and ban them for a few seasons from buying away tickets.

[The9]

I thought this may make an interesting discussion .

 

A Man Utd season ticket holder has been banned for applying for tickets for 12 months . The article states that he was ill so didn't attend the Hull game . What I found interesting was the bit that stated " somebody else went but was refused entry" . This poses two questions to me ; How was he caught and does this mean a clampdown is imminent . Obviously the " he was ill" bit gives the story it's emotional hook , but they're obviously looking at people bypassing the buying criteria .

 

My Scouse mate reckons there is a lot of unrest up there regarding people passing tickets on, with a select band of season ticket holders basically becoming touts . I would imagine all the big clubs suffer from this , so maybe the complaints are adding up and the clubs are looking to close this loophole . Since Arnham our club have tightened up on European tickets , will domestic games go the same way?

 

What are people's thoughts?

 

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/1926216/manchester-united-season-ticket-holder-of-over-30-years-has-been-banned-from-away-games-for-a-year-after-he-didnt-tell-the-club-he-was-ill/

 

Unlike Saints, where you can just buy priority with ST or Membership purchase, some other clubs have lengthy waiting lists and very restrictive criteria for tickets - which makes the whole "buy it and let someone else use it" a very enticing prospect. Liverpool had some properly mental requirements for someone to get a ticket to see their reserves away to Exeter in the Cup last season - you had to have been to something like all of their previous 6 League Cup away games dating back about 5 years and there was no benefit to having gone to league, european or other cup aways!

 

I'm guessing the usual issue here was someone gobbing off about it in social media in a way that attracted the attention of the club*. The tickets are very clearly marked as non-transferable, and if the club can basically get away with reselling a home ticket at a higher price than the ST holder paid, they probably will. With away tickets having a fixed face value it's going to be more about stopping people circumventing the priority rules for other matches (and stopping touting).

 

It's not financially beneficial for Saints to clamp down on it because they know we don't have the far greater waiting list of some of the more popular clubs.

*have since read the thread and spot checks would also cover it.

Edited 7 October, 2016 by The9

[The9]

I think there's a two fold thing at play here. Quite often people "sharing" their number are doing it on a game by game basis. I know i've shared mine on the occasions that the person who i normally go with can't make it. But normally in those cases it goes to another friend that goes fairly regularly anyway (home and away as much as they can).

 

The ones that really, really get my goat are the lot who buy the away tickets in the first release then IMMEDIATELY sell them on social media accounts. There's a few of these that are very obvious and you'll see them tout their tickets out almost straight away after they've come on sale.

 

Personally i'd like to see Saints as a club monitor accounts like the Saints tickets one on twitter, and if they see someone doing it regularly (since let's be honest there's always a time when people need to get rid of tickets for one reason or another) and ban them for a few seasons from buying away tickets.

 

Interesting, I didn't know there was a SaintsTicket thing on twitter doing this. Tbh with the number of times we don't quite sell out I'd think there's a serious risk of not even covering the cost of the ST, but I guess there's a market for people who don't have a purchase history and can't be bothered to get themselves on the system.

[oldsarum]

Interesting, I didn't know there was a SaintsTicket thing on twitter doing this. Tbh with the number of times we don't quite sell out I'd think there's a serious risk of not even covering the cost of the ST, but I guess there's a market for people who don't have a purchase history and can't be bothered to get themselves on the system.

 

it is not necessarily a twitter thing. already several posters doing this for Man City Away on this board, it is obvious as tickets only went on sale this week that those concerned never intended to attend the game and always planned to pass tickets on

 

It is a bit different when you see people in days before the game trying to do the same, the majority of those have genuine unforeseen reason for them not be able to attend

[Lord Duckhunter]

The point of the story is that it is an away game to Hull; If you think its become pretty common place for Saints away support to be made up of a large number of people that have got tickets through others season tickets, can you imagine Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal?

 

I think both United and Liverpool have started to implement some sort of checks at away turnstiles which might be how this bloke got caught out, not sure.

 

This is the point I was trying to discuss but maybe didn't word it too well .

 

Do people think there should be checks made and action taken against people lending their ST numbers to others . As I said I know from my mate in Liverpool the only way to buy an away ticket is to go via one of the S/T" touts" rather than the club

[Rut]

April 2017. Saints are mid-table. Man City need to win to clinch the title. It's easy to say 'I'd never sell my ticket' but some Man City fan has 300 quid cash waving by the turnstile for your ticket. The pub round the corner has the game on TV....

 

I can well see a lot of Man Utd & Liverpool fans accepting similar deals to this every week. They've earned the right to away tickets through years of loyalty (fair play) but now are all a bit sick of it and nowadays there's umpteen people from around the country/world who are willing to pay silly money for a much sought after away ticket. The internet means they haven't physically got to tout the tickets at the game. Easy money. The more that do it - the more the core away support gets diluted. The worse it is for the diehards. The more likely the diehards will cave in and take the cash...

 

In a few years time a Liverpool v Man Utd game will be full of people who've paid 2 grand a ticket and are all sitting politely waiting for the atmosphere to start. It won't. It was sold - to you!

[stevegrant]

Interesting, I didn't know there was a SaintsTicket thing on twitter doing this.

I saw someone on there on Monday, within about 3 hours of the Man City tickets going on sale, trying to sell his three tickets. The bloke clearly had no intention of going, but wanted to get the credit for attending anyway.

[The9]

In a few years time a Liverpool v Man Utd game will be full of people who've paid 2 grand a ticket and are all sitting politely waiting for the atmosphere to start. It won't. It was sold - to you!

 

There's been no atmosphere at Anfield outside their two compulsory singing of YNWA for at least 10 years.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I saw someone on there on Monday, within about 3 hours of the Man City tickets going on sale, trying to sell his three tickets. The bloke clearly had no intention of going, but wanted to get the credit for attending anyway.

 

I'd be interested in your opinion on this.

 

Personally it'll prob cost me a Boscombe ticket this year . Last season I did 10 aways , so was ok . This season I've cut back and will only have 4 by the time of that game . If all tickets go to people with 5 that's fair enough , but a ****ed off to be missing out if that's not the case. Can't really see what the club can do , which is why the Utd fan getting caught interested me .

[Saint in Paradise]

Next year I might make a trip back to the UK from NZ and a season ticket holder I know

has said his partner will lend me their season ticket as they won't mind missing one home match

for me. No money for the ticket will change hands as it will be a treat for what we did for them

when they visited us in NZ and we took them places here. What happens then if Saints do a spot

check ? Will I be refused entry and will he then have problems in the future ?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Next year I might make a trip back to the UK from NZ and a season ticket holder I know

has said his partner will lend me their season ticket as they won't mind missing one home match

for me. No money for the ticket will change hands as it will be a treat for what we did for them

when they visited us in NZ and we took them places here. What happens then if Saints do a spot

check ? Will I be refused entry and will he then have problems in the future ?

 

Can't see it being a problem at all, they won't even check . It's away tickets & people manipulating the criteria that's the issue. I've even called the club about my youngest son (15 at the time ) , who is a S/T holder letting his older brother ( who is 27 ) use it. The club were fine with it , provided we paid the difference in price , so they didn't care too much .

Edited 7 October, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[chocco boxo]

Just hope Saints wont be doing any spot checks on us at The San Siro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, what with 7,000 + tickets and passports being cross referenced by The Italian Secret Service, it could take a while for us to get in?

[hutch]

Can't see it being a problem at all, they won't even check . It's away tickets & people manipulating the criteria that's the issue. I've even called the club about my youngest son (15 at the time ) , who is a S/T holder letting his older brother ( who is 27 ) use it. The club were fine with it , provided we paid the difference in price , so they didn't care too much .

Whilst it MIGHT not be a problem, you should be aware of the risk...

 

1.33 Seasoncards are issued for your sole use and you shall not resell, assign or (save as set out in clause 1.34.below) transfer or lend the Seasoncard or the benefit of it to any other person without the prior written consent of the Club. The reference to reselling the Seasoncard includes reference to offering to sell a Seasoncard, exposing a Seasoncard for sale, making a Seasoncard available for sale by another and advertising that a Seasoncard is available for purchase. For the avoidance of doubt (and by way of example only) a Seasoncard may not be offered as a prize in any promotion or competition nor transferred, lent or sold to any third party as part of a hospitality or travel package, given to a third party who agrees to buy another good or service, or used for any other commercial purpose, save as expressly authorised by the Barclays Premier League or the Club.

 

1.34 You may only resell or transfer the Seasoncard to a guest with the express written consent of the Club given at the Club’s absolute discretion. No such resale or transfer will be permitted except where the same takes place in respect of an individual Match and in consideration of no payment or benefit in excess of the face value of a ticket to that Match and such transfer does not take place during the course of any business or for the purpose of facilitating any third party’s business. Such resale or transfer to any guest is hereby provided subject to the Terms and Conditions of Entry which will (save for any rights to transfer under this clause) apply to that guest as if he/she was the original purchaser of the Seasoncard (and you must inform the guest of this).

 

So if the club did decide to clamp down, you could be kicked out, and your friend's partner could lose their season ticket without any refund, and neither of you would have any grounds to complain.

[Golden Balls]

The company I work for buy multiple season tickets for Saints, Bournemouth and Skates. They use them as incentives. There's no actual name on the tickets though.

[Saint-Fred]

Whilst it MIGHT not be a problem, you should be aware of the risk...

 

 

 

So if the club did decide to clamp down, you could be kicked out, and your friend's partner could lose their season ticket without any refund, and neither of you would have any grounds to complain.

 

 

How would they ever know? Having installed an auto ticket system so entry can be gained without the need for a person manning the entry point, does anyone really think they will ever put a person back on the gate to check ID against the ticket name? A quick security check for the randomly chosen is one thing but to check every ticket holders ID?

Not only would it be impractical, but it would mean long long queues to get in.

 

I am sure in the OP story he was not caught because of an ID check at the gate, probably caught selling it on social media or something.

Actually just looked at the article the letter says he was banned for not collecting the ticket.... Did he send someone else to collect it, who had to show ID and was refused then?

Edited 8 October, 2016 by Saint-Fred

[SaintBobby]

Guy I used to work with buys two Arsenal season tickets every year. One he uses and the other he sells each game so that he can afford to buy tickets next year. It's the only way he can afford to watch the team he loves.

 

This is what happens when prices rise beyond the means of most football fans.

 

Isn't the dilemma that, in some ways, ticket prices are actually too low?

 

Sounds a bizarre thing to say, I know. But if clubs wish to reward loyalty or longevity of support (and three cheers for that), you're bound to get a situation where a select group can access tickets for, say, £30 a pop, but there's a load of less loyal fans willing to pay £100+ to get into a certain match. At some point, loyal fans are going to be tempted to trouser the £70+ difference rather than attend themselves. This means long-serving fans get rewarded with cash, rather than access, which isn't the intention at all.

 

It's getting mental at Real Madrid. You can recoup most of the cost of the entire season ticket just for selling it on for the home game against Barcelona.

 

God knows what the solution is unless you go down the grim route of ID cards/fingerprint access at the gate etc.

[Bananaman]

Guy I used to work with buys two Arsenal season tickets every year. One he uses and the other he sells each game so that he can afford to buy tickets next year. It's the only way he can afford to watch the team he loves.

 

This is what happens when prices rise beyond the means of most football fans.

 

This, absolutely this. Can't blame people for bending the 'rules' in trying to find ways to make a bit of money or watch their favourite team.. when players make tens-of-thousands a week. This is a symptom.

[Lord Duckhunter]

This, absolutely this. Can't blame people for bending the 'rules' in trying to find ways to make a bit of money or watch their favourite team.. when players make tens-of-thousands a week. This is a symptom.

 

No it's not at our club , maybe bigger ones .It's about people buying tickets for games they are not attending to boost their buying history . I suspect most people selling them on do so for face value .

 

It looks to me like clubs are starting to look at this . It's telling than our Arnham game hasn't appeared in any selling criteria & this story confirms Man Utd are doing something to curb the practise . As I said previously Liverpool are receiving lots of complaints that a select few just buy for every game & then sell them on . They're not pricing out other fans , just not giving them the oppurtunity to build up a sales history .

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

It's getting mental at Real Madrid. You can recoup most of the cost of the entire season ticket just for selling it on for the home game against Barcelona.

 

.

 

I met ex pats in a bar in Malaga that have S/T's to their games . They sell the Barca match one year & the Madrid one the following season and this pays for the S/T in each season . One year they miss Barca the next Madrid , but they get in for free for every other game

[View From The Top]

I've a friend who is a Wolves ST holder who also has 4 MUFC STs and has had them for well over 20 years. He has them for business reasons, he runs a pub, and they go for face value on a match by match basis to Utd fans who drink in the pub but cannot afford or commit to STs themselves. Occasionally they're used for a jolly boys, usually for a big European night or something like Utd/City Utd/Dippers.

 

He gets away tickets for the midland/northern away games and other games on request. Again, the lads who go would never stand a chance of getting their hands on them.

 

Brings business into his pub and makes a lot of people happy.

[ChudSaint]

http://indo.ie/ulPs304Xi6c

[Lord Duckhunter]

Article in tomorrow's paper that states Manchester Utd are making supporters pick up their tickets for Leicester away on the day , and they have to show ID.Says it's common for European games but not been done for premiership matches before . I reckon it could become a regular thing within a year or 2. When one club does something the others tend to follow .

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DuncanRG]

Unless rulemaking bodies take a stance I can't see this coming round to us any time soon. Touting is gonna be a much bigger problem for Man Utd and the like, with bigger fanbases and tourists milling about.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Unless rulemaking bodies take a stance I can't see this coming round to us any time soon. Touting is gonna be a much bigger problem for Man Utd and the like, with bigger fanbases and tourists milling about.

 

They may do it for local games , say Boscombe , Brighton & maybe some London games. I guess it's how much of a fuss the supporters who miss out make. There's no doubt in my mind that the Arnham game changed the way the club distributed tickets in Europe and led to the Milan nonsense. If it does become the "norm" with the larger clubs I can see some of our games going the same way

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[southamptonfc]

Was speaking to Man U season ticket holder a couple of months ago. Apparently 10-15% of Man U season tickets are 'owned' by people over 100 years old. They have been passed down the family rather than losing good seats.

[JRM]

They may do it for local games , say Boscombe , Brighton & maybe some London games. I guess it's how much of a fuss the supporters who miss out make. There's no doubt in my mind that the Arnham game changed the way the club distributed tickets in Europe and led to the Milan nonsense. If it does become the "norm" with the larger clubs I can see some of our games going the same way

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

yeah but the difference with us is there isn't an army of people desperate for tickets, virtually every away game has gone on general sale this season, would be a costly and pointless task for Saints to start doing this , although nothing would surprise me with the way the club is run.

Arsenal at least acknowledge that some people share season tickets or companies own them so for European away games where they have to collect they allow the purchaser to name the person who will be collecting, at least they acknowledge that not every fan can afford a season ticket on their own.

[rallyboy]

I think it would be fair for any club to ask why a supporter is buying 15 season tickets, or checking the ID of someone who is 110 years old.

United have such demand that there must be some odd things going on.

I'm not sure we need to worry too much yet - what with our 45,000 seater stadium just around the corner.

[benjii]

I thought this may make an interesting discussion .

 

A Man Utd season ticket holder has been banned for applying for tickets for 12 months . The article states that he was ill so didn't attend the Hull game . What I found interesting was the bit that stated " somebody else went but was refused entry" . This poses two questions to me ; How was he caught and does this mean a clampdown is imminent . Obviously the " he was ill" bit gives the story it's emotional hook , but they're obviously looking at people bypassing the buying criteria .

 

My Scouse mate reckons there is a lot of unrest up there regarding people passing tickets on, with a select band of season ticket holders basically becoming touts . I would imagine all the big clubs suffer from this , so maybe the complaints are adding up and the clubs are looking to close this loophole . Since Arnham our club have tightened up on European tickets , will domestic games go the same way?

 

What are people's thoughts?

 

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/1926216/manchester-united-season-ticket-holder-of-over-30-years-has-been-banned-from-away-games-for-a-year-after-he-didnt-tell-the-club-he-was-ill/

 

Yes, this has been the way with big clubs for years.

 

I had two Man U-supporting mates in Soton who held season tickets at Old Trafford for years but, over a season, would do maybe half a dozen home games and some European aways. The rest of the time their tickets were passed round a group of fans for use.