The Secret Footballer claims saints academy is critisised inside football

[Polaroid Saint]

I don't think the stereotypes based on race are valid. Turkish's comments around 'not seeing many Asian builders' relate to more subtle cultural issues, and the aspirations or goals of a particular subset of the immigrant community, rather than 'Asians not being very good at it', presume there are plenty of Chinese builders in China, and they have demonstrated some pretty impressive building skills over the centuries.

That said, if there is a market for a particular type of player, and our business model is to service that need, then I'm quite happy for the club to run with that. Football is a meritocracy, if we had a yaya toure clone on our books, I doubt we would force him to play on the wing.

 

Well put.

 

"Race" doesn't exist. Cultural stereotypes however do.

 

Skin pigmentation has nothing to do with athleticiam. Nothing at all.

[The9]

Well put.

 

"Race" doesn't exist. Cultural stereotypes however do.

 

Skin pigmentation has nothing to do with athleticiam. Nothing at all.

 

Skin pigmentation doesn't, but geographical evolution over millions of years in response to the local environment does. Obviously prior to very recent population migration due to long distance travel, skin colour was also heavily dependent on where someone originated.

 

Nowadays sporting success has got more to do with lifestyle in developed countries and access to facilities in underdeveloped ones, but there's a reason most world-class sprinters are of west african ethnic origin and many distance runners are east african. There are other factors in play with many cricketers coming from certain areas of the commonwealth, of course.

[Plastic]

One point to add - I remember a biologist friend of mine telling me that people of sub-Saharan decent are biologically predisposed to have stiffer Achilles tendons, whereas people of Northern European decent apparently have more flexible ones, or vice versa.

Anyway, he said having an Achilles tendon of one type or the other meant that you either had an advantage in running or swimming, hence the race disproportion in these sports. May be boll0cks, but sounded interesting.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Skin pigmentation doesn't, but geographical evolution over millions of years in response to the local environment does. Obviously prior to very recent population migration due to long distance travel, skin colour was also heavily dependent on where someone originated.

 

Nowadays sporting success has got more to do with lifestyle in developed countries and access to facilities in underdeveloped ones, but there's a reason most world-class sprinters are of west african ethnic origin and many distance runners are east african.

 

...and why they don't make good swimmers.

 

There's nothing racist about this policy, if it is even used. It is purchasing players that fit into a system based on their physical attributes. Let's use the NFL as an example. You hardly get any outside threat WR's who are white because they aren't tall enough/quick enough/strong enough. However, you do tend to get them in the middle of the field as they tend to have more ability to get open in tight spaces.

[The9]

...and why they don't make good swimmers.

 

There's nothing racist about this policy, if it is even used. It is purchasing players that fit into a system based on their physical attributes. Let's use the NFL as an example. You hardly get any outside threat WR's who are white because they aren't tall enough/quick enough/strong enough. However, you do tend to get them in the middle of the field as they tend to have more ability to get open in tight spaces.

 

Something to do with bone density and twitch fibres, last time I paid any attention to it (though I'm wary this could be the phrenology of the 21st century).

 

I'm still pretty sure Saints aren't targeting particular skin colours as opposed to physical and mental footballing capability, and all within the limitations of the recruitment geographical limitations. Developing "homegrown" players has significant competitive and financial benefits of course.

[ericb]

This thread is veering scarily close to the Nazi ideal of Eugenics right now, personally i thought our support was better than that but some of the institutional racist dross that's appeared here is frankly shocking. And the fact that it's not the normal trolls and **** takers spouting it is even more worrying.

 

A lot of these comments come from people who clearly think they're being logical and "scientific" about the whole thing, despite posting absolute P.T Barnum style gumf and bullsh*t

[Plastic]

This thread is veering scarily close to the Nazi ideal of Eugenics right now, personally i thought our support was better than that but some of the institutional racist dross that's appeared here is frankly shocking. And the fact that it's not the normal trolls and **** takers spouting it is even more worrying.

 

A lot of these comments come from people who clearly think they're being logical and "scientific" about the whole thing, despite posting absolute P.T Barnum style gumf and bullsh*t

 

This feels like an overreaction, I haven't seen anything on this thread that is worrying. Misinformed at best surely?

Who's comments are shocking?

[Colinjb]

This thread is veering scarily close to the Nazi ideal of Eugenics right now, personally i thought our support was better than that but some of the institutional racist dross that's appeared here is frankly shocking. And the fact that it's not the normal trolls and **** takers spouting it is even more worrying.

 

A lot of these comments come from people who clearly think they're being logical and "scientific" about the whole thing, despite posting absolute P.T Barnum style gumf and bullsh*t

 

Would you care to counter the trains of thought you disagree with?

 

I'm playing devil's advocate here, and I understand why you are worried, but without a logical counterpoint it's difficult to undermine the train of thought.

[ScepticalStan]

This thread is veering scarily close to the Nazi ideal of Eugenics right now, personally i thought our support was better than that but some of the institutional racist dross that's appeared here is frankly shocking. And the fact that it's not the normal trolls and **** takers spouting it is even more worrying.

 

But this is the thing; you seem averse to the idea not because there's counter-evidence to suggest that it isn't true, but because it would be unpleasant if it *is* true

[The9]

Comical overreaction, no-one on the entire thread has suggested either that Saints are picking players based on race, that there's any benefit to doing so, or that they should be doing so. Even Turkish was only paraphasing the Secret Footballer comments.

 

A couple of comments pointing out that almost all world class sprinters are black are entirely factual, the other comments have been "I know someone who said..." or guarded comments that people of different geographical origin clearly have different propensity to particular physical attributes.

[Polaroid Saint]

This feels like an overreaction, I haven't seen anything on this thread that is worrying. Misinformed at best surely?

Who's comments are shocking?

 

Precisely, misinformed is all.

 

It is worth trying to inform ourselves and each other. We need to keep reminding ourselves that the word "Race" is naive and simplistic short-hand, and is basically just an excuse to group of people based on their skin colour. Which then opens up all sorts of issues and preconceptions (and, at worst, prejudices).

 

Conflating 'race' (i.e. skin colour) with geographic, historical or cultural influence on genetic make-up and/or ability is very common, and understandable, but ultimately pretty unhelpful.

 

Of course, this is not the place (nor do I have the time) to delve into all the varying historical, cultural, economic and geographic influences that can, and do, affect both individual's genetic make-up and their physical abilities, but as other have alluded to, those things have much more baring on sporting prowess than skin colour. If we continue to use skin colour as 'short hand' then other, much more damaging, preconceptions will continue to hold sway.

[Cheeky Monkey]

Swimming is racist too...

[Secret Site Agent]

I don't think the stereotypes based on race are valid. Turkish's comments around 'not seeing many Asian builders'

 

Just to steady the boat, I have come across LOADS of Asians in the construction industry. Best concrete finishers ever.

[Mystic Force]

So I think that the OP actually has two parts of which we have only really discussed one aspect. First the non talked about one.

 

Our academy is regard as a source of profit, not players. In that we are trying to make players other teams want. Not that we wish to make players we want. Maybe we want them too, but know we can't keep these players? And Saints are falling foul of part two to get there.

 

The second already reviewed part is coming. Ok I want to take this back to first principles. Certain attributes are favorable for certain position, such as height for central defenders, strength for a hold up player, ability to do tricks for a creative player etc. Physical characteristics are a product of genes, with some influence from environmental factors, ie malnourished children tend to be less tall than their genes would make them given better access to food. Genes vary across people, but some genes are found clustered in certain places that give people certain physical characteristics.

 

This next bit is where the problem starts. We get a short hand. That is if we have X then they will have property A, B and C. That doesn't seem so bad. But we are at this point looking at say 10 year olds who haven't matured we are guessing they are more likely to have A,B and C when they are older because they are X. Well ok, life is about making guesses it makes sense even if I feel it is wrong. But next we say if you are X you NEVER are going to have Q. Only Y can have Q, we are only going to train Ys to be Q, and here is the different part because X is not smart enough, not because they do not have the right physical attribute but we guess they are not smart because you are X. To do this is a disservice to the players that come through. How about X/Y how do we build them how much X makes them only X?

 

To go back to an earlier example, in the thread. Once apon a time black players were thought unable to be quaterbacks because of the intelligence factor.

 

At a certain point players will specialize, its natural and necessary, and it makes sense that those who are most suited to a role, train in that role. The problem comes when we substitute short hand for insight. Now I bet that some of this will go on subconsciously, we as people should strive to overcome that. When it becomes more overt we have a problem. If saints are doing this deliberately because they believe that is where the market is, would be disgraceful. So I hope that is not the case. Often criticism comes from jealous people, hopefully that is all it is. But if founded I would be very disappointed, because it would mean that our academy is not based on the principles they espoused.

 

Subsidiary point.

 

Sometimes Turkish makes good points and brings up intresting debates, sadly Turkish also likes to irritate people, and unfortunately the good stuff gets lost in the shuffle because of peoples prejudice, so instead of unpicking an intresting topic, we have some ancillary stuff going on.

 

More of this stuff please Turkish. Thank you for starting this thread. I think it is an important and intresting thing to examine.

[angelman]

Pathetic to see Godwin's Law playing out!!

[Crab Lungs]

Crab Lungs thinks we've got some kind of aryan dwarf policy going on, or something like that anyway.

 

Nope you're right. I think I spotted about 14 of them in a pre season once. Very unnerving.

[Nordic Saint]

Just to steady the boat, I have come across LOADS of Asians in the construction industry. Best concrete finishers ever.

 

You don't see them out so much because they work so quickly and finish the buildings much faster than we do. I always think it would be great if we could get a bunch of workers over here from the Far East to sort out our road and rail maintenace work. In fact that's what the Victorians and Americans used to do and what the Arabs do now to get their skyscrapers built.

[Ohio Saint]

One point to add - I remember a biologist friend of mine telling me that people of sub-Saharan decent are biologically predisposed to have stiffer Achilles tendons, whereas people of Northern European decent apparently have more flexible ones, or vice versa.

Anyway, he said having an Achilles tendon of one type or the other meant that you either had an advantage in running or swimming, hence the race disproportion in these sports. May be boll0cks, but sounded interesting.

 

This sounds feasible, so I'll run with it......albeit a fair bit slower than someone with a stiffer tendon.

[aintforever]

What a load of ********.

[Ohio Saint]

What a load of ********.

 

Bovinist

[Plastic]

This sounds feasible, so I'll run with it......albeit a fair bit slower than someone with a stiffer tendon.

 

Looks like it may be due to length & elasticity actually. Still dubious I guess...

 

http://sportsscientists.com/2013/01/the-kenyan-advantage-is-it-calf-elasticity/

[Ohio Saint]

Looks like it may be due to length & elasticity actually. Still dubious I guess...

 

http://sportsscientists.com/2013/01/the-kenyan-advantage-is-it-calf-elasticity/

 

 

whatever it is, it seems certain to me that there are physiological differences between races that help determine what sports might better fit the attributes of various people. For anyone to deny that possibilty based simply on the grounds that it sounds a bit racist is just being obtuse. Science is science, racism is racism, and I blame Darwin for everything.

[Jonnyboy]

Mainly just want to congratulate Turkish on finishing a book.

 

Where's the evidence of that?

[whelk]

This thread is veering scarily close to the Nazi ideal of Eugenics right now, personally i thought our support was better than that but some of the institutional racist dross that's appeared here is frankly shocking. And the fact that it's not the normal trolls and **** takers spouting it is even more worrying.

 

A lot of these comments come from people who clearly think they're being logical and "scientific" about the whole thing, despite posting absolute P.T Barnum style gumf and bullsh*t

 

Blimey a little sensitive for this place.

 

What has particularly upset you flower?

[david in sweden]

Swimming is racist too...

 

as well as field sports .....like discus and hammer-throwing ......and of the course, the equestrian sports.

[adrian lord]

100m 200m sprinting racist -when was the last time a white or Asian won anything?

[Secret Site Agent]

One point to add - I remember a biologist friend of mine telling me that people of sub-Saharan decent are biologically predisposed to have stiffer Achilles tendons, whereas people of Northern European decent apparently have more flexible ones, or vice versa.

Anyway, he said having an Achilles tendon of one type or the other meant that you either had an advantage in running or swimming, hence the race disproportion in these sports. May be boll0cks, but sounded interesting.

 

And, aparently, the reason why Native Americans are excellent as steel erectors is that, genetically,they have no fear of height. Right down to their Genome they don't suffer from verigo or Rhygores. And they are really excellent steel erectors as well, better eye than a cheap B&Q spirit level.

[tajjuk]

Just a thought but maybe the less natural athletes develop their footballing brain more because they have to, as they don't have the pace to recover positions or burst past people, or the strength to bully people.

 

Thus they have to rely on positioning, vision, quick feet etc. more to compete.

 

Whereas the natural athletes who are fast and strong can rely on those attributes more, thus don't develop the other attributes as much because they achieve their success through their athleticism.

 

Look at how say a Mane beats a man, it's a lot of pace and power with some dribbling ability, whereas someone like Messi it's more focused on close dribbling and acceleration.

 

Also haven't they done a study that basically shows the slave trade killed off the weak and the small, and that is why a lot of black people particularly from the Caribbean and the US are such good athletes, because their ancestors had to be strong and big to survive being slaves.

 

Football teams of recent years have been very focused on big athletic players and a there are a lot of stories of very talented players being discarded just for being too small, whereas I think Saints give younger players more time to develop. Wasn't Bale a late bloomer physically?

[Saint Without a Halo]

quite - and Dubai is being built by Asian builders on slave wages in dreadful conditions for their Arab masters.

 

Crock of sh1yte that Saints academy is racist, or criticised.

 

Classic case of making up a controversial book-selling idea and reverse-justifying it.

 

I agree that the academy is not racist as per my posts earlier, however in your defence of the academy you have carried out a similar misinformed slander on Dubai.

 

As a resident in Dubai I can confirm that whilst it is far from perfect It at least employes many migrants, who come here willingly to escape poverty at home and gives them and their families back home a better life not all of them are construction workers.

 

The conditions and labour rights of construction workers have improved tremendously in the last twenty years and continue to do so and while a lot can still be done in this area their conditions are far better than those they experience in their home countries which is why they continue to seek work here

 

Dubai also now allow and encourages immigrants to live here and set up there own companies operating in many sectors such as hospitality IT service sectors industry aviation health etc with residence rights giving them infrastructure and access to funding not available to them at home.

Many of dubais original migrants from the Indian subcontinent twenty years ago still live here and a significant number of them now form a comfortable middle class with a number also very affluent forming businesses and employing others back home.

 

I suggest Dubai has a much better migrant policy and attitude to new migrants than many European countries now do

Also most of the buildings and properties being built in Dubai are now owned by Asians and Europeans not by Arab masters

 

Dubai has absorbed 500% more migrants than its original people and they live pretty well together, it is far from perfect but it does have a lot of lessons on tolerance of other cultures and new migrants that many Europeans and Americans can learn from especially based on recent events in Europe and the States.

 

I think in a perverse sort of way you have proved the point that our academy is far from racist by demonstrating unintentionally how misinformation can be used to shed the wrong light on circumstances.

Edited 14 September, 2016 by Saint Without a Halo

[adrian lord]

^ good post, thanks for the insights

[Fan The Flames]

Just to steady the boat, I have come across LOADS of Asians in the construction industry. Best concrete finishers ever.

 

Walked on to a site a few years back and the whole team of concrete finishers were Sikhs, it was quiet an unusual sight for me as normally the sites I have worked on are very white. I see loads of their vans driving up from Gravesend in the mornings. This is the point, if you find it difficult to break into one job market then you have to set up a parallel market and Asian firms have now sprung up. It maybe shouldn't be this way but barriers and the desire to work with people you identify with makes this happen.

[Saint Without a Halo]

whatever it is, it seems certain to me that there are physiological differences between races that help determine what sports might better fit the attributes of various people. For anyone to deny that possibilty based simply on the grounds that it sounds a bit racist is just being obtuse. Science is science, racism is racism, and I blame Darwin for everything.

 

Spot on!

it is the result of millions of years of Darwinian survival of the fittest.All animal species including humans adapt to their environments developing different strengths and weaknesses. Tropical fish will not survive long in the North Sea and vice versa

 

It is very clear East Africans and others living at height have developed better use of sparse oxygen giving them stamina and as a result they are generally better long distance runners

 

West Fridays and carrabeans of west African origin are generally more powerful muscular runners hence the 100 and 200 m etc this is scientific fact not fascism!

[Saint-Fred]

Spot on!

it is the result of millions of years of Darwinian survival of the fittest.All animal species including humans adapt to their environments developing different strengths and weaknesses. Tropical fish will not survive long in the North Sea and vice versa

 

It is very clear East Africans and others living at height have developed better use of sparse oxygen giving them stamina and as a result they are generally better long distance runners

 

West Fridays and carrabeans of west African origin are generally more powerful muscular runners hence the 100 and 200 m etc this is scientific fact not fascism!

 

If that is true why are there millions of people of all races that are rubbish at the stuff their race is supposed to be good at? Within every race there is a full range of differing abilities at everything. Wether there is a greater likelihood of an individual of a certain race being better at something than an individual of another race has never been proven to my knowledge.

 

However the fact is I know there are people of every race who are better at any given sport than a lot of individuals from the race who is supposed to be better at that sport!

 

To stereotype a whole race of people as good at one thing or poor at another is surely exactly what being racist is?

 

So back to the point in hand..to sensationalise something like this into perceived racism is just ridiculous... I am sure Saints couldn't care what race the person is as long as they are good enough and to suggest,for example, that they only go to watch people of a certain race for certain positions is just bizarre!

[sotonist]

If that is true why are there millions of people of all races that are rubbish at the stuff their race is supposed to be good at? Within every race there is a full range of differing abilities at everything. Wether there is a greater likelihood of an individual of a certain race being better at something than an individual of another race has never been proven to my knowledge.

the rest of the human gene pool let the west indians have sprinting and the african americans have basketball in lieu of reparations.