The Secret Footballer claims saints academy is critisised inside football

[Turkish]

Reading the new book and he claims saints academy is the subject of a lot of criticism inside football for interesting reasons.

 

The back ground is that there is an unspoken theory in the premier league that black players are not trusted with roles that require intelligence and discipline such as a 'tempo' midfielder. He says that if you look at the evidence to support the theory then it tends to back it up. Of the players who are the tempo/passing players in the premier league they are almost without exception white, Carrick, Fabregas, Cazorla, Coutinho, Ramsey, eriksen etc and the black players are used for their pace and power down the wings. In fact even if you look at the likes of Paul Pogba at his best for Juventus wss when he had Pirlo alongside him.

 

What he says saints are being critisised for is that we know what players the likes of man united, Arsenal etc want to buy so we deliberately produce or sign ball playing white midfielders or quick and/or powerful black players as we know we can sell them on as it fits the racial typecast that runs through the premier league right now.

 

So what do we make of this? Are saints stereotyping in their recruitment? Are we not signing white wingers or black midfield play makers due to some underlying racial prejudice that white players provide the intelligence and the blacks the pace or power? You've got to say on the evidence of the players that have been signed and come through the academy of late then he might have a point.

 

Before anyone suggests this is my view or a racist post I've repeated what is in the book The Secret Footballer Access all areas.

[ScepticalStan]

Reading the new book and he claims saints academy is the subject of a lot of criticism inside football for interesting reasons.

 

The back ground is that there is an unspoken theory in the premier league that black players are not trusted with roles that require intelligence and discipline such as a 'tempo' midfielder. He says that if you look at the evidence to support the theory then it tends to back it up. Of the players who are the tempo/passing players in the premier league they are almost without exception white, Carrick, Fabregas, Cazorla, Coutinho, Ramsey, eriksen etc and the black players are used for their pace and power down the wings. In fact even if you look at the likes of Paul Pogba at his best for Juventus wss when he had Pirlo alongside him.

 

What he says saints are being critisised for is that we know what players the likes of man united, Arsenal etc want to buy so we deliberately produce or sign ball playing white midfielders or quick and/or powerful black players as we know we can sell them on as it fits the racial typecast that runs through the premier league right now.

 

So what do we make of this? Are saints stereotyping in their recruitment? Are we not signing white wingers or black midfield play makers due to some underlying racial prejudice that white players provide the intelligence and the blacks the pace or power? You've got to say on the evidence of the players that have been signed and come through the academy of late then he might have a point.

 

Before anyone suggests this is my view or a racist post I've repeated what is in the book The Secret Footballer Access all areas.

 

Could you post the extract of that please?

 

Didn't Laurent Blanc or Franc LeBoeuf (or someone like that - definitely French) get in hot water for saying that African players didn't have 'footballing intelligence' or something along those lines?

 

Incidentally, 'footballing intelligence' has always struck me as a bit of a bull**** term. It's essentially having good technique and spacial-awareness which enables you to have a good touch and spot when and where there's a player is in space - there's no 'intellectual' quality in being an 'intelligent midfielder' there.

 

Case in point - Paul Scholes.

[Turkish]

Could you post the extract of that please?

 

Didn't Laurent Blanc or Franc LeBoeuf (or someone like that - definitely French) get in hot water for saying that African players didn't have 'footballing intelligence' or something along those lines?

 

Incidentally, 'footballing intelligence' has always struck me as a bit of a bull**** term. It's essentially having good technique and spacial-awareness which enables you to have a good touch and spot when and where there's a player is in space - there's no 'intellectual' quality in being an 'intelligent midfielder' there.

 

Case in point - Paul Scholes.

 

It's too long to do so it written across 9 pages 142-151 if anyone wants to read them. The opening paragraph where he goes into it says

 

"there is a lot of critisism right of of the southanpton academy for going after players who are predominately young, white centre midfield players who can control a game"

[Lallana's Left Peg]

It's a weird method for him to find a way to call football racist.

 

And, for what it is worth, Saints Academy regularly miss out on good prospects to top London clubs and as a consequence we focus on those who are smaller and less physical (but have other attributes that are appealing) for development. So to then be criticised for developing them because the bigger clubs took the more physically impressive players (many of which who are black) is ridiculous. And if you look at the black players we have developed...many of them were small as well.

[stevegrant]

"there is a lot of critisism right of of the southanpton academy for going after players who are predominately young, white centre midfield players who can control a game"

Clearly there's a context to that comment across 9 pages of a book, but in isolation it sounds like a very strange criticism, that it's bad for a club to want to sign central midfielders who can control a game.

[Saint-Fred]

It's too long to do so it written across 9 pages 142-151 if anyone wants to read them. The opening paragraph where he goes into it says

 

"there is a lot of critisism right of of the southanpton academy for going after players who are predominately young, white centre midfield players who can control a game"

 

How many players who meet that description have we actually sold to one of the big clubs?

[shurlock]

Still can't shift prowsey -and he's got a double-barrelled surname ffs.

[Cheeky Monkey]

Spot on

[Saint Without a Halo]

What a load of tosh we sign players who we believe have a chance of making it

Even then we are mistaken in Eight or Nine out of every ten signed

 

We would be stupid to turn down a player we feel has a chance of making it because he doesn't fit a so called stereo type

We are known for focusing more on technique and skills rather than the physical size a lot of other clubs go for so far we have been more successful in having a better percentage of those who make it to actually say we are taking the also rains others don't want is clearly not true our selection criteria may be a little different but it works

 

Parents and agents are bringing their kids to us because we have a better pathway into the main teams a fact proven by the sheer numbers of successful players we bring through

 

However at any club those who make it at any level in the four top divisions are a minority and never more than around 10 to 15 percent at best of those signed

Edited 8 September, 2016 by Saint Without a Halo

[Fabrice29]

As Steve Grant says 9 pages of context is needed before anyone can make a true judgement on the comments. However the phrase "going after" suggests we are deciding at the ages of 8/9 when the club brings these players into the club that we are able to not just spot a technically gifted player, but being able to judge their game and what role they play in a team. At such a young age that seems pretty ridiculous to me.

[Bobbyboy]

How many players who meet that description have we actually sold to one of the big clubs?

Right. The impression I have is that we tend to do attacking left-backs and inside forwards from the academy. If it comes to BUYING players to sell later, they're presumably thinking Morgan or Vic, who both came to us in totally different circumstances anyway. I'm just struggling to see how this fits with who we have "developed" over the last say 8-10 years.

[angelman]

It's faintly ridiculous to criticise Saints if the big boys have the race based policy.

[Chris27687]

Would be amazed if this is true, sounds more like a journalist with a 'this is the way it is' style rant.

[ChrisPY]

If the thread title was 'Dave Kitson claims saints academy is criticised inside football' would anyone be taking it seriously?

[Patrick Bateman]

'There is a lot of criticism'

 

Where? Who? When?

 

If there were genuinely an underlying issue here, we'd have heard about it far more readily than all the media and player fawning over how good the Saints academy structure is!?

[positivepete]

So are we being racist against white kids because we think they don't have pace and power? Or are we just finding players who have certain attributes to play in certain positions, and it just happens that players who have certain attributes also often have the same background,

[Saint IQ]

Do you remember those really fast athletic fellas we had at left back from our academy bombing down the wings in the recent decade? They were both black weren't they, like our apparent policy....Oh wait.

 

That promising winger Josh Sims, and previous youth prospect Lloyd Isgrove who played on the wing, they were both your typical black winger speed merchant weren't they?

 

Evidence suggests what the secret footballer is writing there is either bs, an unsubstantiated dig from a former s**** or highly exaggerated to make the book a bit more interesting

[david in sweden]

True ...many of the Academy successes started with the club at a very young age - and yes quite a lot of them happen to be white....Lallana, Shaw, JWP, Targett, etc....

...except of course Theo Walcott and Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain....or shouldn't we mention them because it might negate the author's ridiculous " apartheid " theory?

 

I can't recall who said this quote......think it may have been Rupert Lowe....

" ....that we (Saints) don't necessarily look for young players with a lot of skills....but those who are intelligent, have athleticism ....and we can teach the rest."

As for the current situation, a majority of the U23's happen to be " white " ..BUT a not-inconsiderable number of the U18 squad players - aren't British .. nor are they "white".

 

Certainly we seek players who have specific talents and many " non-white " footballers are much faster than an average white player - hence their use as wingers/strikers.

On the other hand, in international athletics ...I can't recall the last " white " athlete who gave Usain Bolt a run for his money either......

 

I don't think we "avoid " buying certain types of players because of their cultural background /ethnicity, but we can only buy those .....that we can afford to buy...

 

if we were " filthy rich " ....and with a huge transfer budget.....then maybe we'd have bid for Pogba instead.

Edited 8 September, 2016 by david in sweden

[Chalkboy]

Would this be the same "Secret Footballer" who stated in 2015, Morgan Schneiderlin to Arsenal was a done deal?

 

Think the bloke is talking b*llocks. If a kid has talent and the club feel he's right for the academy I can't believe the colour of his skin would make the slightest difference to the position he plays. Can just imagine Les Reed saying " Woah, he's f*ckin dynamite but he's black therefore Arsenal won't buy him."

 

Codswallop.

[Patrick Bateman]

Would this be the same "Secret Footballer" who stated in 2015, Morgan Schneiderlin to Arsenal was a done deal?

 

Think the bloke is talking b*llocks. If a kid has talent and the club feel he's right for the academy I can't believe the colour of his skin would make the slightest difference to the position he plays. Can just imagine Les Reed saying " Woah, he's f*ckin dynamite but he's black therefore Arsenal won't buy him."

 

Codswallop.

 

I enjoyed his first book, by his second book I started to think he was massively up his own backside; he's obviously got worse.

 

Probably as he's got older as a player and more bitter about the youngsters coming through.

[The9]

Do you remember those really fast athletic fellas we had at left back from our academy bombing down the wings in the recent decade? They were both black weren't they, like our apparent policy....Oh wait.

 

That promising winger Josh Sims, and previous youth prospect Lloyd Isgrove who played on the wing, they were both your typical black winger speed merchant weren't they?

 

Evidence suggests what the secret footballer is writing there is either bs, an unsubstantiated dig from a former s**** or highly exaggerated to make the book a bit more interesting

 

Crab Lungs thinks we've got some kind of aryan dwarf policy going on, or something like that anyway.

[cellone]

Crab Lungs thinks we've got some kind of aryan dwarf policy going on, or something like that anyway.

I feel for Bertrand.

[Lighthouse]

It could well be that different races have different mental attributes which make them better suited to different roles. I can't believe for a second though that we would pick and chose academy players based on race. I'm sure if we found a pale, white ginger kid who could play like Romario, the club wouldn't be saying he was the wrong colour.

[Spoonman]

If the thread title was 'Dave Kitson claims saints academy is criticised inside football' would anyone be taking it seriously?

This. Smell of fish off Kitson.

[ENSKIED]

Would this be the same "Secret Footballer" who stated in 2015, Morgan Schneiderlin to Arsenal was a done deal?

 

Think the bloke is talking b*llocks. If a kid has talent and the club feel he's right for the academy I can't believe the colour of his skin would make the slightest difference to the position he plays. Can just imagine Les Reed saying " Woah, he's f*ckin dynamite but he's black therefore Arsenal won't buy him."

 

Codswallop.

 

Yeah it undoubtedly is, since it would be Liverpool.

[Turkish]

Clearly there's a context to that comment across 9 pages of a book, but in isolation it sounds like a very strange criticism, that it's bad for a club to want to sign central midfielders who can control a game.

 

I've tried to condense the context into a few paragraphs above. In short as I say there is a feeling in football that black players aren't trusted to play the intelligent roles on the pitch, they play the roles of pace and/or power it's white players that provide the intelligence. He gives a list of names of players that play these roles as evidence. It appears we are getting critisised for our development maximising on racial stereotypes inside the game.

 

Is there anything wrong with this? Personally I don't think so. Look at the Olympic 100 metre final, most of them were black, no one is shouting racism then. It's the same in other industries you'd be quite happy to use an Asian accountant but you won't find many doing work on your house, no one shouts racism there either. Horses for courses. Just because a certain type of player is suited to a particular role it doesn't mean it's racist is what seems to be the implication.

 

By the way I love it that rather than discussing the issue we get the usual angry "he's a w*kner" reponse because it's something they don't like or people like the charismatic and interesting AdrianSFC having a go at me for simply outlining the point he is making for sensible debate which is afterall what everyone claims they want. Maybe we should go back to talking about saints players cars. :rollseyes:

[Batman]

unless you say how wonderful SFC are at everything they do. This is what you get, Turkish

and this is not even your own opinion

[ghq]

Whether or not the "author" is wrong with his theory I don't know that we can dismiss or endorse it out of hand. Maybe this could be the exception that proves the rule or undermines it a bit, but Ya Ya Toure was not a winger and happened to be, (when he could be bothered),one of the best midfielders I've ever seen.

 

Of course that's just an opinion, much the same as most have opinions without much in the way to back up aforesaid opinions.

[CB Fry]

Is it still Dave Kitson then? Surely he's not going to be enough of an insider anymore and they've moved on to someone else.

 

I always thought TSF was a "composite" person anyway with inputs from more than one source to make it impossible to know for sure/legally who the "I had this manager once..." definitely was.

[way down south]

it can't be racist or stereotypical to suggest facts tho, although not all, most black pro footballers tend to be athletic and powerful, most asians are the opposite. the intelligence part isn't a given for anyone IMO, white, black or Asian. lots of non football intelligent footballers out there who compensate with athleticism, work rate, and pace no matter their race.

[CB Fry]

Anyone looked at the Team GB Cycling, Rowing, Hockey, Equestrian etc teams recently. Basically it's like Hitler won the war.

[whelk]

Anyone looked at the Team GB Cycling, Rowing, Hockey, Equestrian etc teams recently. Basically it's like Hitler won the war.

 

And the 100m relay teams seems like they concentrate on pace and power.

[Plastic]

I don't think the stereotypes based on race are valid. Turkish's comments around 'not seeing many Asian builders' relate to more subtle cultural issues, and the aspirations or goals of a particular subset of the immigrant community, rather than 'Asians not being very good at it', presume there are plenty of Chinese builders in China, and they have demonstrated some pretty impressive building skills over the centuries.

That said, if there is a market for a particular type of player, and our business model is to service that need, then I'm quite happy for the club to run with that. Football is a meritocracy, if we had a yaya toure clone on our books, I doubt we would force him to play on the wing.

[angelman]

The criticism would only hold validity if Southampton was the sole supplier of players to the bigger clubs. We of course are not, not by a very very very (ad nauseam) long shot.

 

But anyway, looking at our current 1st XI and the criticism that the high tempo passing players are white, I wonder which pigeon hole Boufal would fit into? He has been brought in to be the creative force in midfield - maybe that is the exception that proves the "rule". Oh but then there is 2015/16 Player of the Year, one Riyad Mahrez who was LCFC dynamo. So maybe it is whites and Arabs that can do it, but not blacks (not sure what colour Yaya Touré is!)

[Secret Site Agent]

I would just like to point out that we are lucky to have that speedy Black winger, Shane Long.

 

Personally, I think it is a load of Tosh and he should have prefaced it with the sentence, 'in my opinion' but I will download the book and read it on holiday to get the full context. It doesn't make good business sense though. Why restrict yourself to a certain type of 'product' when you can off all products, i.e. Motor companies don't restrict themselves to the most popular colour and add on package, as there is alway a market you can sell to.

 

We have a successful, well run acadamy and I can't see them having restrictions or being that stupid to introduce a colour bar to positions. After reading his last book, I suspect he took it as a chance to include Saints for 9 pages, as we don't feature very often in his tomes.

[The9]

Is it still Dave Kitson then? Surely he's not going to be enough of an insider anymore and they've moved on to someone else.

 

I always thought TSF was a "composite" person anyway with inputs from more than one source to make it impossible to know for sure/legally who the "I had this manager once..." definitely was.

 

Pretty sure it was Kitson when he was playing, right up to his spell at Oxford the season before last, no idea what's happened since then, I've only read the first two books as he was starting to annoy me by being seemingly more and more out of touch and sensationalist as he slid out of relevance.

[The9]

unless you say how wonderful SFC are at everything they do. This is what you get, Turkish

and this is not even your own opinion

 

You're weird. This is a thread of people saying "it sounds pretty bloody unlikely" backed up by various reasons it's pretty bloody unlikely.

[ScepticalStan]

Thing is. there may be a bit of truth in the sense that there aren't many black 'tempo' midfielders at all, simply because, from an early age (literally 11 or 12 or so), the main strength of most good black players tends to be their pace and strength - so they get put up front or on the wing, or into an 'enforcer' role in centre-mid or centre-back.

 

Yaya Toure is a great centre-midfielder who can certainly pass well with both feet, but he's just too strong and athletic for that not to be have been wasted throughout his career by restricting him to a 'quarterback role'.

 

Similarly, I'm sure Pirlo and Cazorla wouldn't turn down the chance to be as fast as Usain Bolt and have a Hulk-like physique, but as they don't, they only really have one position they can be good at.

[Graffito]

Now we know why we're not producing any ginger strikers.

[Pat from Poole]

I have read three-quarters of the book, and am not convinced that the author is Dave Kitson.

 

I was looking for clues and thought it might be Kevin Phillips, but he slags off Sunderland quite a bit, so I guess that ruled that out.

 

The guy is a bit of an agent, does Dave Kitson do that now?

 

And BTW, the guy is generally pretty complimentary about Saints in the book. He hates Chelsea, and in particular John Terry.

[Charlie Wayman]

Nobody mentioned Bale yet, seems an odd omission. Is it 'cos he's Welsh?

[SO16_Saint]

I also find it shocking that the IAAF haven't looked into the fact that 99% of long distance and marathon winners are black.

 

Something should be done about it. Won't somebody think of the children FFS

[SonicBoom]

I don't know if this is valid but aren't we restricted in our academy recruitment by location? I thought we could only recruit within a certain geographical area. I assume other clubs have similar restrictions.

Therefore (in general terms) a team like Spurs will see far more black kids playing football in their local areas than Saints would. Harringay for example has a large black community.

If a club is in an area with more black communities, then they are going to see and recruit more black kids than a team like Saints who have less black communities locally. No?

[The9]

I don't know if this is valid but aren't we restricted in our academy recruitment by location? I thought we could only recruit within a certain geographical area. I assume other clubs have similar restrictions.

Therefore (in general terms) a team like Spurs will see far more black kids playing football in their local areas than Saints would. Harringay for example has a large black community.

If a club is in an area with more black communities, then they are going to see and recruit more black kids than a team like Saints who have less black communities locally. No?

 

Used to be, the Elite Player Performance stuff deregulated that a fair bit.

 

Weirdly a couple of friends of mine in South Wales have had kids in Cardiff, Newport, West Brom and Leicester academies. God knows what the regulations are there... Leicester is JUST within 2 hours' drive (at 3am) though, which I think was one of the old criteria.

[SonicBoom]

Oh Ok. I still think there's rules though. My friend lives in Totton and his lad was at the Chelsea academy for a few years. I thought the player had to live within an hour of the ground or something but then the bigger clubs began to entice kids by offering flats etc near the training ground to the parents to get around it.

 

The point still stands though. Your scouts will recruit kids that reflect the areas they live in surely.

[The9]

Oh Ok. I still think there's rules though. My friend lives in Totton and his lad was at the Chelsea academy for a few years. I thought the player had to live within an hour of the ground or something but then the bigger clubs began to entice kids by offering flats etc near the training ground to the parents to get around it.

 

The point still stands though. Your scouts will recruit kids that reflect the areas they live in surely.

 

I'm not sure we should be giving this too much thought anyway tbh. Saints will pick up the players they can get with the intention of making them as good as they can, I don't think there's any more to it other than that there is an obvious difference in the likelihood of finding certain races in mid-Wales compared to north London and as you say, it reflects the area - just that the area is wider than just the immediate vicinity of Southampton.

 

I'm sure MLG will be along to provide some detail soon... I'm actually hopeful it might be useful this time.

[corky morris]

So lets get this clear.

People at other football clubs, probably academies criticise Saints by suggesting we are racially profiling.................

One of the most, if not most successful academy in the PL & Champ is being criticised by people who don't achieve what we do.

Sounds like academy directors are being asked why they don't deliver what we do & are looking an excuse.

I have experience of academies. I have come to the conclusion that they are all looking for Messi. Youngest was at Man Utd. All they want each year is one player to get close to the first team or be good enough to get sold on or be a Rashford. As an FYI, Rashford signed for Man Utd at 17/18 I think. Very few of the players Man Utd sign at 6, 7 or 8 are defenders. Its all about the ball & how they master it. Defenders are recruited after age 11 or switched from other positions.

Stoke is different. We filled a form in with the history of height, illness & injuries when middle lad was 11.

I think its actually quite naïve to think that things like this actually don't go on. It may even be subliminal.

As for the author, he wants to write something to stimulate the purchase of his book...........................simple....................its worked, we are talking about it.

[corky morris]

Used to be, the Elite Player Performance stuff deregulated that a fair bit.

 

Weirdly a couple of friends of mine in South Wales have had kids in Cardiff, Newport, West Brom and Leicester academies. God knows what the regulations are there... Leicester is JUST within 2 hours' drive (at 3am) though, which I think was one of the old criteria.

 

Yep, we live in Shropshire. Telford just lost players to QPR.

[adrian lord]

I don't think the stereotypes based on race are valid. Turkish's comments around 'not seeing many Asian builders' relate to more subtle cultural issues, and the aspirations or goals of a particular subset of the immigrant community, rather than 'Asians not being very good at it', presume there are plenty of Chinese builders in China, and they have demonstrated some pretty impressive building skills over the centuries.

That said, if there is a market for a particular type of player, and our business model is to service that need, then I'm quite happy for the club to run with that. Football is a meritocracy, if we had a yaya toure clone on our books, I doubt we would force him to play on the wing.

 

 

quite - and Dubai is being built by Asian builders on slave wages in dreadful conditions for their Arab masters.

 

Crock of sh1yte that Saints academy is racist, or criticised.

 

Classic case of making up a controversial book-selling idea and reverse-justifying it.

[The9]

All you're doing is putting yourself at the opposite end of the spectrum to MLG. I don't see anyone else so blind they'd praise everything the club does.

 

Doesn't mean you have to believe any old stuff about them does it.

 

I don't think I've ever see MLG state an opinion on anything. He just responds to points with logical critique without any indication whether he believes it or not.