Puel

[derry]

U23s played the standard 4-2-3-1 at Charlton. So that means the club bring in a manager that brings in a new system that not all the players brought in for the old system suit and furthermore the academy and development sides won't play. Any players that come through the academy when they get into the first team squad will have to adapt to a completely different system.

 

I thought the whole idea was to bring in managers that conformed to the club thinking so that there wouldn't have to be a rethink on the players needed and there would be continuity all the way through the club.

 

I don't buy this assertion from Puel that to be able to play two games a week we have to play a diamond midfield and keep the ball when patently the full backs aren't good enough, the midfielders can't keep the ball and none of our strikers have a clue how to adapt. Most of our possession statistics come about knocking the ball around between the goalkeeper and the centre backs. If the first three games are anything to go by we aren't doing much saving of legs far from it. Few of the other teams that play in Europe if any play a diamond to save legs, they rotate their players. The problem is we are set up to play one competition whilst the better teams pretty much have two teams within their squads.

 

We are going to have to make a success of this diamond pretty damn quick otherwise we are going to be out of the cups and struggling in the league. Then we won't need to save legs. How did we let ourselves get in this mess having identified continuity as the club plan?

[vectraman]

U23s played the standard 4-2-3-1 at Charlton. So that means the club bring in a manager that brings in a new system that not all the players brought in for the old system suit and furthermore the academy and development sides won't play. Any players that come through the academy when they get into the first team squad will have to adapt to a completely different system.

 

I thought the whole idea was to bring in managers that conformed to the club thinking so that there wouldn't have to be a rethink on the players needed and there would be continuity all the way through the club.

 

I don't buy this assertion from Puel that to be able to play two games a week we have to play a diamond midfield and keep the ball when patently the full backs aren't good enough, the midfielders can't keep the ball and none of our strikers have a clue how to adapt. Most of our possession statistics come about knocking the ball around between the goalkeeper and the centre backs. If the first three games are anything to go by we aren't doing much saving of legs far from it. Few of the other teams that play in Europe if any play a diamond to save legs, they rotate their players. The problem is we are set up to play one competition whilst the better teams pretty much have two teams within their squads.

 

We are going to have to make a success of this diamond pretty damn quick otherwise we are going to be out of the cups and struggling in the league. Then we won't need to save legs. How did we let ourselves get in this mess having identified continuity as the club plan?

 

I totally agree with your observations regarding playing the ball out short constantly from the 'keeper. It, when it worked was incredibly boring watching it go across the back four and back to the keeper, sometimes via a midfielder, who then played it backwards.

My thought whilst watching us methodically plodding it across the pitch was this - what happens against a high pressing side who don't give you any time on the ball?

What is the plan B going to look like then? Can't go long as the players are too small to win & keep the ball upfront. What then Claude?

I think half decent teams will very quickly cotton on to our one dimensional system, and stop us playing keep ball. Several times against Sunderland Fraser played short balls out and we did not look at all comfortable dealing with it. Clearly it's the new system they are being instructed to play, but currently it looks so limited and limiting!

Thoughts?

[angelman]

The problem with this conversation is that too many people presume that Puel can play in one way and one way only, with no variation or adaption.

[Giordano]

I totally agree with your observations regarding playing the ball out short constantly from the 'keeper. It, when it worked was incredibly boring watching it go across the back four and back to the keeper, sometimes via a midfielder, who then played it backwards.

My thought whilst watching us methodically plodding it across the pitch was this - what happens against a high pressing side who don't give you any time on the ball?

What is the plan B going to look like then? Can't go long as the players are too small to win & keep the ball upfront. What then Claude?

I think half decent teams will very quickly cotton on to our one dimensional system, and stop us playing keep ball. Several times against Sunderland Fraser played short balls out and we did not look at all comfortable dealing with it. Clearly it's the new system they are being instructed to play, but currently it looks so limited and limiting!

Thoughts?

 

We already had that problem in previous years and as you + Derry both suggest, we previously had a target man as an "out" ball if it all got a bit too hairy with the more advanced high pressing teams. This time around we do not have that "out" because Austin does not have the height or holding/playmaking ability of Pelle being more (imo) of a finisher than anything else.

 

A consequence is that against some teams we will look a little bit like we are passing for passing's sake initially ~ until our guys get up to confidence with it ~ and that can seem disappointing especially against so called weaker teams like Watford and Sunderland. Puel does want us to integrate more vertical/aggressive passes and fewer lateral/passive passes but its one step at a time. We do very much look like we are learning on the job and i suppose we are impatient for the guys to "get it" quickly and start showing the reason its a good formation to have up your sleeve. It will take time. If we keep on drawing at home losing away then that time will start to run out though but we are a long way off that yet. Xmas time is a fair test of the system not a few early games. We know the players are good enough to be top half but can they do it with a new style of play that makes us harder to play against in theory and is easier on the legs now we are in multiple games per week mode most of the season? Lets see. The "legs" argument in theory should start to show benefit after winter for example.

 

I'm open to the new playing system, indeed id say its obligatory for us to have several ways of playing not just one which can be countered...and it needs to be learned then mastered and that takes time but, like some, i respect the boss but admit I'd prefer a bit more charisma, less generic meaningless non-interviews to the point of being a waste of time watching them and even a smile now and again from him. I appreciate that's (probably) part of the grand plan and Puel's personality suits it to a tee - to take away from the cult of manager and focus on the club ~ but all the same Look at the energy Conte or a Klopp brings to his teams for instance and the instant rapport that they have with fans ~ that's the added value those managers bring and i guess its also in part what gives them the big salaries...but it MUST lift the club and the players if the boss gets a bit enthusiastic occasionally rather than appear distant, french-sophisticated and rather bored of it all...

[Verbal Kint]

The problem with this conversation is that too many people presume that Puel can play in one way and one way only, with no variation or adaption.

 

We're all waiting for the variation

[SonicBoom]

Good points although I don't know why we simply accept as some sort of perceived wisdom that "it takes time".

Does it? Really?

The players already know how to pass, trap the ball and move into space. So with a new system they simply need to follow instructions. It's really not rocket science. Was it Shankly that said football is a simple game complicated by idiots.

Not only that, we must have been working on this since Puel arrived and we've played quite a few games now.

I'm not saying it happens overnight but let's not just assume that the penny will drop at some mythical point in the future. It's just a change in the players position on the pitch. We are not asking them to perform brain surgery wearing boxing gloves.

[derry]

Maybe the problem for the players is that Premier sides with their pace and power are finding the diamond easy to contain. Conversely the players are finding it makes it more difficult for them to penetrate and being pressed in possession isn't fun. Cedric's crossing has been awful reminiscent of Lloyd James on a bad day. and Targett isn't a natural attacker but is putting in a shift. Two key cogs that don't work for the diamond with the goals against coming behind the full backs in various ways..

[hughieslastminutegoal]

Good points although I don't know why we simply accept as some sort of perceived wisdom that "it takes time".

Does it? Really?

The players already know how to pass, trap the ball and move into space. So with a new system they simply need to follow instructions. It's really not rocket science. Was it Shankly that said football is a simple game complicated by idiots.

Not only that, we must have been working on this since Puel arrived and we've played quite a few games now.

I'm not saying it happens overnight but let's not just assume that the penny will drop at some mythical point in the future. It's just a change in the players position on the pitch. We are not asking them to perform brain surgery wearing boxing gloves.

 

I guess it is even worse when you get a simple game further simplified by idiots, not that I'd suggest any of our back seat managers can be classified as such.

 

But if you send in your simple instructions (back of a fag packet will suffice) I'm sure they will be gratefully received.

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Oh the irony...

 

I love your predictions as they are mostly wrong....

 

Predictions??? I had a tenner on Koeman not lasting the season at 50-1. £10 is hardly going to break the bank & could have been a nice little earner. He went, just not soon enough for me to get a reward from it. Had the club told him to get his coat as soon as the Everton talk started I'd have been paid out. Hey ho. That's life...

Edited 31 August, 2016 by Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd

[S-Clarke]

Predictions??? I had a tenner on Koeman not lasting the season at 50-1. £10 is hardly going to break the bank & could have been a nice little earner. He went, just not soon enough for me to get a reward from it. Had the club told him to get his coat as soon as the Everton talk started I'd have been paid out. Hey ho. That's life...

 

The fact you associate bad news with getting yourself a reward/a nice little earner says it all.

[FriendlySaint]

We already had that problem in previous years and as you + Derry both suggest, we previously had a target man as an "out" ball if it all got a bit too hairy with the more advanced high pressing teams. This time around we do not have that "out" because Austin does not have the height or holding/playmaking ability of Pelle being more (imo) of a finisher than anything else.

 

A consequence is that against some teams we will look a little bit like we are passing for passing's sake initially ~ until our guys get up to confidence with it ~ and that can seem disappointing especially against so called weaker teams like Watford and Sunderland. Puel does want us to integrate more vertical/aggressive passes and fewer lateral/passive passes but its one step at a time. We do very much look like we are learning on the job and i suppose we are impatient for the guys to "get it" quickly and start showing the reason its a good formation to have up your sleeve. It will take time. If we keep on drawing at home losing away then that time will start to run out though but we are a long way off that yet. Xmas time is a fair test of the system not a few early games. We know the players are good enough to be top half but can they do it with a new style of play that makes us harder to play against in theory and is easier on the legs now we are in multiple games per week mode most of the season? Lets see. The "legs" argument in theory should start to show benefit after winter for example.

 

I'm open to the new playing system, indeed id say its obligatory for us to have several ways of playing not just one which can be countered...and it needs to be learned then mastered and that takes time but, like some, i respect the boss but admit I'd prefer a bit more charisma, less generic meaningless non-interviews to the point of being a waste of time watching them and even a smile now and again from him. I appreciate that's (probably) part of the grand plan and Puel's personality suits it to a tee - to take away from the cult of manager and focus on the club ~ but all the same Look at the energy Conte or a Klopp brings to his teams for instance and the instant rapport that they have with fans ~ that's the added value those managers bring and i guess its also in part what gives them the big salaries...but it MUST lift the club and the players if the boss gets a bit enthusiastic occasionally rather than appear distant, french-sophisticated and rather bored of it all...

 

You don't need a target man to play out from the back. I suggest you look at the teams that are a lot better than us that play possession game like Barca, Bayern. I will point out though that Austin is 6'2 and decent in the air anyway (although not as good in the air as Pelle). A huge problem is obviously the diamond system. 442 diamond isn't as suited to possession football as formations like 433, 4231, 4141.. Another problem is that our midfield in particularly is very weak in possession. They can't beat a man and they are scared to pass the ball forward to feet (I will point out though that at times they aren't given enough options). Romeu in particular looks out of his depth this season as the anchor man at the base of the diamond. He's weak, gets shrugged off the ball too easily, barely ever passes the ball forward, can't dribble out of trouble. Romeu would be much better suited to playing as one of the wide central mids and Hojbjerg could do a much better job as the anchor midfielder. If Puel is adamant he will play 442 diamond then I hope he realises Hojbjerg should play at the base instead of Romeu. And I'd have Ward-Prowse and Davis playing as the wide CM's if I simply had to play 442 diamond.

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

The fact you associate bad news with getting yourself a reward/a nice little earner says it all.

 

The fact that you're a **** will never go away!

[SaintRobbie]

Puel seems to have failed to attract many players. Is there a reason?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Maggie May]

I have a feeling it won't be long until there's a Paul Sturrock-style mutiny within the camp. If after five games there's still no win, the board has to be asking questions.

[Katalinic]

Puel seems to have failed to attract many players. Is there a reason?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The interested players read your posts on here and decided they didn't want to play for a team who have such a massive **** as a supporter.

[Wade Garrett]

I have a feeling it won't be long until there's a Paul Sturrock-style mutiny within the camp. If after five games there's still no win, the board has to be asking questions.

 

Reckon you could be right. Very destructive for the club.

[Badger]

Puel seems to have failed to attract many players. Is there a reason?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Probably as much to do with the "wad" Les Reed waves in front of them as it is with Puel's charisma.

[James]

I have a feeling it won't be long until there's a Paul Sturrock-style mutiny within the camp. If after five games there's still no win, the board has to be asking questions.

 

This is my biggest fear. Would destroy our season if it happened. Hopefully we have all been reading too much into it.

[The9]

I have a feeling it won't be long until there's a Paul Sturrock-style mutiny within the camp. If after five games there's still no win, the board has to be asking questions.

 

Seeing as the next game is Arsenal away I'm fairly sure there won't be any major issue if we don't win that one. Assuming you're not counting Charlton as a first team fixture (though we didn't win, Puel had nothing to do with it as far as I'm aware), the 5th game will be home to Sparta Prague and the 6th home to Swansea. Losing the next 3 would be a problem, but even with that much depends how it happens.

[The9]

You don't need a target man to play out from the back. I suggest you look at the teams that are a lot better than us that play possession game like Barca, Bayern. I will point out though that Austin is 6'2 and decent in the air anyway (although not as good in the air as Pelle). A huge problem is obviously the diamond system. 442 diamond isn't as suited to possession football as formations like 433, 4231, 4141.. Another problem is that our midfield in particularly is very weak in possession. They can't beat a man and they are scared to pass the ball forward to feet (I will point out though that at times they aren't given enough options). Romeu in particular looks out of his depth this season as the anchor man at the base of the diamond. He's weak, gets shrugged off the ball too easily, barely ever passes the ball forward, can't dribble out of trouble. Romeu would be much better suited to playing as one of the wide central mids and Hojbjerg could do a much better job as the anchor midfielder. If Puel is adamant he will play 442 diamond then I hope he realises Hojbjerg should play at the base instead of Romeu. And I'd have Ward-Prowse and Davis playing as the wide CM's if I simply had to play 442 diamond.

 

You don't, but you do need an aerial threat to make defences think they need to defend against an aerial threat. A single-faceted attack of players trying to pass and create a through ball is easy to stop with an established defence.

 

Boufal's skill and quickness should help with creating space, and direct running pulls defenders out of position, but it's still easier to stop a single-faceted team than one which can also hurt you with a high ball to someone who can score from it. Charlie Austin may be 6ft 2 but he's not an aerial threat you'd aim a high ball at in the main, as he mostly makes runs to get the ball into his feet.

 

Despite Rodriguez being slightly shorter, he's lean and has played as that kind of target man before at Burnley so gives the impression of being an aerial threat and also moves to the far post to attack crosses with his head, which is movement onto defenders' blind side where they don't know if the ball is coming in low or high.

 

Rodriguez has the ability to shoot from range, to finish closer in, to run at players, to win headers and to hold the ball up from clearances - we need someone with all those skills to complement the option of playing the ball early and wide to countering strikers, or passing forever and putting in low crosses in front of an organised defence.

 

I'd also add that your opinion of Romeu "getting shrugged off the ball too easily" seems to have been formed from him losing out on two challenges where he was off-balance or stretching for the ball in early matches - or a couple of times pre-season where he didn't get a call and was robbed, all of which are understandable when your attacking colleagues are new people or in new positions (as opposed to just failing to execute as intended).

Edited 31 August, 2016 by The9

[The9]

This is my biggest fear. Would destroy our season if it happened. Hopefully we have all been reading too much into it.

 

Not all of us. Just weird "wanting to fail" types.

[shurlock]

He may have limitations but the idea that Charlie Austin isn't an aerial threat is more bizarro thinking. He's good in the air. Indeed Eddie Howe believes Austin's as good as anyone he's worked with aerially.

Edited 1 September, 2016 by shurlock

[Maggie May]

Seeing as the next game is Arsenal away I'm fairly sure there won't be any major issue if we don't win that one. Assuming you're not counting Charlton as a first team fixture (though we didn't win, Puel had nothing to do with it as far as I'm aware), the 5th game will be home to Sparta Prague and the 6th home to Swansea. Losing the next 3 would be a problem, but even with that much depends how it happens.

 

Losing to Arsenal is a problem. It has been a fixture where you'd look to get something from. We've completely regressed. No wins against Sunderland or Watford is dire. Even in the Man U game we looked world's apart.

 

I said it at his appointment, Puel will be a disaster. How can anyone be positive based on the performances so far? It'll only get worse.

[cellone]

Losing to Arsenal is a problem. It has been a fixture where you'd look to get something from. We've completely regressed. No wins against Sunderland or Watford is dire. Even in the Man U game we looked world's apart.

 

I said it at his appointment, Puel will be a disaster. How can anyone be positive based on the performances so far? It'll only get worse.

Define disaster.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

The interested players read your posts on here and decided they didn't want to play for a team who have such a massive **** as a supporter.

 

[baggytrousers]

Reckon you could be right. Very destructive for the club.

 

Very imaginary for this forum more like.

[saint-matt]

Losing to Arsenal is a problem. It has been a fixture where you'd look to get something from. We've completely regressed. No wins against Sunderland or Watford is dire. Even in the Man U game we looked world's apart.

 

I said it at his appointment, Puel will be a disaster. How can anyone be positive based on the performances so far? It'll only get worse.

 

It's not a make or break game but I agree with the attitude in the approach to these types of games. We beat all the big teams once last season and should be going there confident of bringing back all three points. I don't know if its psychological with the slow start but suddenly Arsenal away feels a daunting prospect, and in terms of the team progressing it really shouldn't. But we will see...

 

Play well and bring back all three points then Puel is a hero and diamonds are forever... (perhaps wishful thinking)

[saint-matt]

It's not a make or break game but I don't like that the attitude in the approach to these types of games has become so defeatist. We beat all the big teams once last season and should be going there confident of bringing back all three points. I don't know if its psychological with the slow start but suddenly Arsenal away feels a daunting prospect, and in terms of the team progressing, it really shouldn't. But we will see...

 

Play well and bring back all three points then Puel is a hero and diamonds are forever... (perhaps wishful thinking)

 

edit. typed quick as at work.

[Sour Mash]

Losing to Arsenal is a problem. It has been a fixture where you'd look to get something from. We've completely regressed. No wins against Sunderland or Watford is dire. Even in the Man U game we looked world's apart.

 

I said it at his appointment, Puel will be a disaster. How can anyone be positive based on the performances so far? It'll only get worse.

Mental.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Losing to Arsenal is a problem. It has been a fixture where you'd look to get something from. We've completely regressed. No wins against Sunderland or Watford is dire. Even in the Man U game we looked world's apart.

 

I said it at his appointment, Puel will be a disaster. How can anyone be positive based on the performances so far? It'll only get worse.

 

THREE GAMES...THREE......

[Block34]

Not being a technical football chappie, so looking for an explanation here ..... are those of you saying that our players can't 'do' the diamond thing that Puel has introduced intimating its because they're basically one trick ponies??

 

Surely any footballer worth his salt can play any style or tactical nuance (given practice) and indeed change it at will as circumstances require or don't our players do that?

 

So you're really saying our players are shît?

 

After all, it's the players who do the ball-kicking thing.....

[New Forest Steve]

I have a feeling it won't be long until there's a Paul Sturrock-style mutiny within the camp. If after five games there's still no win, the board has to be asking questions.

 

Mental.

[Maggie May]

THREE GAMES...THREE......

 

Three horrendous games. Come back to me when you're crying.

[S-Clarke]

Maggie May is a skate, not sure why people keep falling for it.

[trousers]

Maggie May is a skate, not sure why people keep falling for it.

Nah... Can't be... The mods would clamp down swiftly on any Pompey WUMs in here.... Oh...

 

More chomps on this page than a caterpillar farm

[Dangermouth]

Not being a technical football chappie, so looking for an explanation here ..... are those of you saying that our players can't 'do' the diamond thing that Puel has introduced intimating its because they're basically one trick ponies??

 

Surely any footballer worth his salt can play any style or tactical nuance (given practice) and indeed change it at will as circumstances require or don't our players do that?

 

So you're really saying our players are shît?

 

After all, it's the players who do the ball-kicking thing.....

 

 

 

This was mentioned by someone elsewhere. Basically they're trained in loads of systems so it shouldn't be a problem when they get used to it. Davis, for example however, does seem to struggle more than say VVD but the midfield needs very physical players and he (and especially JWP/Clasie) might not be up to the demands of it. That said, he put in shift under Pochettino, so ... .

[Batman]

Not being a technical football chappie, so looking for an explanation here ..... are those of you saying that our players can't 'do' the diamond thing that Puel has introduced intimating its because they're basically one trick ponies??

 

Surely any footballer worth his salt can play any style or tactical nuance (given practice) and indeed change it at will as circumstances require or don't our players do that?

 

So you're really saying our players are shît?

 

After all, it's the players who do the ball-kicking thing.....

 

it is more about the right players to maximise the formation.

Boufel appears to be a huge step in that direction

[melmacian_saint]

The real shame if things don't hit the ground running post international break is that we will probably waste our Europa campaign just to try to scrape a few wins, which will set a rather depressing dynamic for the whole year

[aintforever]

it is more about the right players to maximise the formation.

Boufel appears to be a huge step in that direction

 

Surely that goes against the whole "Southampton way" idea though?

 

Puel brings in players to suit his formation, if it all goes **** he gets fired then the next manager will have to change personel to suit his system ect ect.

[Badger]

Surely that goes against the whole "Southampton way" idea though?

 

Puel brings in players to suit his formation, if it all goes **** he gets fired then the next manager will have to change personel to suit his system ect ect.

 

It does seem a bit of a compromise on the club philosophy that Les Reed has publicly spouted about in the past, as does the signing of players to suit the managers own national preferences (Dutch or experience of their league for RK, and now going Francophile for Puel).

[danjosaint]

Surely that goes against the whole "Southampton way" idea though?

 

Puel brings in players to suit his formation, if it all goes **** he gets fired then the next manager will have to change personel to suit his system ect ect.

 

But by all accounts Puel hasn't bought players in , Sir Les bought in redmond, Boufal has allegedly been brewing for many many months and similar to Hojberg who was well on our radar before CP

[way down south]

I don't think boufal is a puel signing as has been said above, if we have hundreds of players on our watch list and the new manager knows a few players on the list I suppose the get moved up the list so we're likely to sign them. but who the F really knows it might all be bull*cks, and we just sign whoever the manager says we should a la mourinho Woodward.

[trousers]

I don't think boufal is a puel signing as has been said above, if we have hundreds of players on our watch list and the new manager knows a few players on the list I suppose the get moved up the list so we're likely to sign them.

 

Indeed, and at no expense spared, here's a handy Venn diagram...

 

[Strangely Brown]

Indeed, and at no expense spared, here's a handy Venn diagram...

 

 

Good drawing of Fratton Park on the right and a great commercial idea turning it into a money making idea too

[adrian lord]

I'm excited by the prospect of that "next manager".

[Badger]

I'm excited by the prospect of that "next manager".

 

Perhaps thats a reference to Kelvin and Fonte. If so, the diagram loses a mark as its no longer factually correct if KD is no longer a player and should not be in the Player Pool still.

 

Or could it be suggestions made by the next manager ahead of his actual appointment?. Discuss.

[Maggie May]

Worried about how the players are fairing under Puel judging by these photos: http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/article/2016-17/20160901-gallery-training-southampton-3286796.aspx

[Saint_Ash]

Worried about how the players are fairing under Puel judging by these photos: http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/article/2016-17/20160901-gallery-training-southampton-3286796.aspx

You're a funny person pompey girl.

[mrfahaji]

This is my biggest fear. Would destroy our season if it happened. Hopefully we have all been reading too much into it.

 

We haven't, the players aren't happy with the system and don't understand why we are persisting with it. Don't think they like Puel too much and one or two have already had a bit of a dust up.

 

Swansea home is pretty important, if we don't win that will be winless from Watford, Sunderland & Swansea home matches. Players don't really care about the club, they care about their working environment. They know that if they don't perform ultimately it will be Puel's head on the block. My main concern is that the players lose interest but the club are too stubborn to get a different manager in, then we really are in trouble. A win might help lift the mood and general commitment in the camp.

[New Forest Steve]

We haven't, the players aren't happy with the system and don't understand why we are persisting with it. Don't think they like Puel too much and one or two have already had a bit of a dust up.

 

Swansea home is pretty important, if we don't win that will be winless from Watford, Sunderland & Swansea home matches. Players don't really care about the club, they care about their working environment. They know that if they don't perform ultimately it will be Puel's head on the block. My main concern is that the players lose interest but the club are too stubborn to get a different manager in, then we really are in trouble. A win might help lift the mood and general commitment in the camp.

 

Mr Fahaji ... you are an idiot