Puel

[derry]

Three games ago we were in a massive mess, losses to WHU and Swansea, only one league win in about eight and heading to Sunderland only six points above the relegation spots, the manager had to do something different. Three at the back, 4-4-2, something original or go back to the 4-2-3-1 the players were successful in for the best part of three seasons, albeit with only one reliable defensive midfielder in Romeu. Davis is not the answer there but neither is anyone else but JWP has helped by being a compromise attacker assisting the defensive two. The team clicked, the ball was at last delivered into the box, Gabbiadini filled his boots, four goals, followed by a very good display at Wembley and another four goals yesterday.

 

Credit to the manager after nearly forty games hitting on the formation we had been playing for the majority of the last three seasons. May be we can get a winning run in with the new found confidence. I don't think Puel is a bad manager but he was misguided trying to fundamentally change the way the team played, players that he had never managed, in a league and country he had never managed, with players that had finished sixth the previous season, comfortable with the way they were playing after a magnificent last three months.

Edited 5 March, 2017 by derry

[Heisenberg]

Some also said that Puels style of play was irrelevant and that if we were winning nobody would complain. "We would moan regardless if we lost"

 

I think the EFL final DEFEAT showed that was total BS. Play attacking and attractive football "The Southampton way" and we are happy - win, lose or draw.

[Dark Munster]

Three games ago we were in a massive mess, losses to WHU and Swansea, only one league win in about eight and heading to Sunderland only six points above the relegation spots, the manager had to do something different. Three at the back, 4-4-2, something original or go back to the 4-2-3-1 the players were successful in for the best part of three seasons, albeit with only one reliable defensive midfielder in Romeu. Davis is not the answer there but neither is anyone else but JWP has helped by being a compromise attacker assisting the defensive two. The team clicked, the ball was at last delivered into the box, Gabbiadini filled his boots, four goals, followed by a very good display at Wembley and another four goals yesterday.

 

Credit to the manager after nearly forty games hitting on the formation we had been playing for the majority of the last three seasons. May be we can get a winning run in with the new found confidence. I don't think Puel is a bad manager but he was misguided trying to fundamentally change the way the team played, players that he had never managed, in a league and country he had never managed, with players that had finished sixth the previous season, comfortable with the way they were playing after a magnificent last three months.

The only misguided person was Les Reed for not getting in a clinical striker last summer. And a CB during the latest window.

[Dark Munster]

I do accept that the introduction of Gabbiadini has been the icing on the cake for the 4231 system.

The introduction of Gabbiadini is the cake itself.

[Cartman]

Three games ago we were in a massive mess, losses to WHU and Swansea, only one league win in about eight and heading to Sunderland only six points above the relegation spots, the manager had to do something different. Three at the back, 4-4-2, something original or go back to the 4-2-3-1 the players were successful in for the best part of three seasons, albeit with only one reliable defensive midfielder in Romeu. Davis is not the answer there but neither is anyone else but JWP has helped by being a compromise attacker assisting the defensive two. The team clicked, the ball was at last delivered into the box, Gabbiadini filled his boots, four goals, followed by a very good display at Wembley and another four goals yesterday.

 

Credit to the manager after nearly forty games hitting on the formation we had been playing for the majority of the last three seasons. May be we can get a winning run in with the new found confidence. I don't think Puel is a bad manager but he was misguided trying to fundamentally change the way the team played, players that he had never managed, in a league and country he had never managed, with players that had finished sixth the previous season, comfortable with the way they were playing after a magnificent last three months.

 

Gabbiadini and Redmond who weren't here last season, Davis playing in a much deeper role than before and Tadic playing up front instead of wide on the left.

So we are now scoring more because we are playing 4-4-2 which is what our players are used to even though only Ward-Prowse and Romeu can be said to be playing in roles that they have often played for us in previous seasons?

Here I was thinking it was because we finally have a bloody good striker.

And doesn't Les Reed's concept for the way we should play involve the first team and all the academy age groups playing 4-3-3? So if our players can only function in a 4-4-2, why did we sign them instead of others who are more suitable to a 4-3-3. Unless of course it is all nonsense and certain fans just channel their inner Mike Bassett and want 4-4-f**king-2 because that is how they think football should be played.

[Lord Duckhunter]

All this pony about Koeman playing 4-2-3-1 , he changed systems plenty of times . We must have played 3 at the back half a dozen times. We played Long & Pelle as a two on occasions & also played 4-4-2 & 4-3-3. The only bloke who was consistent with his formation was Poch, whereby the Football Manager generation on here complained about " no plan B"

 

 

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[mrfahaji]

We have been crossing the ball plenty all season, in fact many people complained that we were crossing too much, except now we have a striker that a) gets on the end of them and b) makes good enough runs to give the crosser an idea where to put the ball.

[Sheaf Saint]

All this pony about Koeman playing 4-2-3-1 , he changed systems plenty of times . We must have played 3 at the back half a dozen times. We played Long & Pelle as a two on occasions & also played 4-4-2 & 4-3-3. The only bloke who was consistent with his formation was Poch, whereby the Football Manager generation on here complained about " no plan B"

 

 

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And who can forget that disastrous 3-4-3 he started us with at Bournemouth!

[Avenue_Saint]

I personally dont think its a critism of Puel to say he's changed things - the opposite in fact. His way (the diamond) didnt work in the EPL and some questioned if he knew any other way. He does and he's changed things.

 

Performances have improved and players seem happier... Its win/win.

 

Playing Redmond on the left (not CF, new Henry blabla) also shows that Puel isnt as stubborn as some say and he has also ditched the rotation policy - perhaps he just now knows his best 11? reduced fixtures? bit of both perhaps?

 

Either way the hows and whys are irrelevant. He needed to change things and he has... Kudos to him and long may the improved attacking football continue and we start looking upwards not down.

 

Im still convinced we can catch Everton, we have easier fixtures than them and only 11 points behind (WITH a game in hand) COYR

 

Good post.

[doddisalegend]

Some also said that Puels style of play was irrelevant and that if we were winning nobody would complain. "We would moan regardless if we lost"

 

I think the EFL final DEFEAT showed that was total BS. Play attacking and attractive football "The Southampton way" and we are happy - win, lose or draw.

 

 

So you were happy we lost a cup final.....

[Professor]

As people have probably seen, JWP is reported on the OS as saying that the 'system is suiting us' and that the change of system is coming to fruition. Is this the change of system fans were told about at he beginning off the season, or other changes in the system that might have happened more recently? Is Redmond still being used as striker, a role that didn't seem to produce many goals, or is he now being used as a winger again, from where he's just scored his first two goals for a long time. I accept that the position a particular player is in may not be change of system but just a change o personnel with the system staying the same but is it that the 'system' is coming good or that team selection is more stable and that some of the players are performing better. No question that Gabbiadini is performing better in the striker role than the players who were there before him but I don't think anyone would claim that the current CB pairing is better than it was before Christmas.

It seems to me that we lost far too many games after Christmas against teams we should have beaten to claim there has been a turn around because of the manager's system. Two wins against bottom of the table sides and a win by the odd goal in 7 against a mid-table side is still sparse evidence. It could be that we have just gained another Lambert and that other players are performing better. If we win or draw against Tottenham, I will feel differently, and to be fair, even if we lose at Tottenham, if that were to down to defensive failures it might still be possible to see that we are playing better, as we did at Wembley despite the result.

For me, I'm still unsure about Puel as manager, much as I like what I see of his character, and at present I would rate both of our previous managers above him.

[saintwbu]

Are we still boring?

[Heisenberg]

Academy boys are now getting less n less playing time.

 

Sims and Reed have vanished and McQueen hasnt started a league game since Everton away.

 

Even Höjbjerg is now very limited and out of the squad fully at weekend.

 

Perhaps Koeman was right about the quality?

[FriendlySaint]

Concerning comments over the "system". We arguably never played a diamond. It was arguably always a 433 with the front three narrow. Even when Tadic was supposedly playing at the tip of the diamond, he was pushed up so high he was effectively a false nine in a 433 with a narrow front three. The "front 2" were split and defending the flanks…because that's literally where they were playing. Austin was defending against their full back as he was playing out wide for example. If we forget the arguable diamond with Tadic at the tip (which only happened for a few games) then for ages we played a 433 with a narrow front three. Redmond in the middle confused many, as he's not a striker. It wasn't a diamond, it really was 433 with Austin out wide (out wide being narrow, as he was playing like an inside forward/poacher and not like a proper winger at all). So we played 433 with an anchor midfielder (Romeu), 2 central midfielders without much license to get forward. It meant the front three has to work their socks off and we had one less attacking threat. Puel also persisted with Redmond central for far too long. Right now we have reverted to the 4231 which is much better. We've got Redmond where he should be (on the wing). Tadic is where he should be (really don't rate Tadic on the right wing, only rate him central or left wing). Ward-Prowse is in the position in my view that suits him most (right wing/right midfielder). The striker is getting more service and a proper one (not Redmond).

The shape of the team is better. We have more legs for attacking.

 

I can understand a manager trying to play his own formation, tactics, methods IF the players at his disposal are capable of playing the system better than a basic system like 4231. Puel overcomplicated massively at the start of the season. The players were used to playing 4231 and more suited to it. Right now he needs to stick with 4231 and put his foot down with Forster and Stephens.

 

Also I watched a Steve Waugh career overview on Sky SPorts earlier. First series as a captain of Australia he was 2-1 down away from home against the West Indies. He made the decision to drop Warne and then won the final match comfortably 2-2. A leader needs to be ruthless. Puel needs to be ruthless and drop Forster (who has been hopeless). He needs to be ruthless with Stepehens and accept that right now he's not good enough. Stephens has potential if he bulks up, gets stronger, bigger, bigger leap on him and more aggression. Until then an international class defender in Caceres should be playing instead. He needs to be ruthless, and honest with himself, that 4231 is the best option going forward and stick with it. A proper leader puts his team, and winning, before his own pride. It was a mistake not playing 4231 from the start. But he's put that right. Now he needs to get his side spot on or we will keep leaking goals.

Edited 6 March, 2017 by FriendlySaint

[Faz]

Academy boys are now getting less n less playing time.

 

Sims and Reed have vanished and McQueen hasnt started a league game since Everton away.

 

Even Höjbjerg is now very limited and out of the squad fully at weekend.

 

Perhaps Koeman was right about the quality?

 

Nice try

[Saint-Fred]

Academy boys are now getting less n less playing time.

 

Sims and Reed have vanished and McQueen hasnt started a league game since Everton away.

 

Even Höjbjerg is now very limited and out of the squad fully at weekend.

 

Perhaps Koeman was right about the quality?

 

Stephens is getting game time as is Prowse?

Obviously with less rotation the pull on the rest of the squad is less. So players outside the first 13/14 will be getting less game time whether they are academy or not.

Personally I think its important they get time but it's not helpful if, for example, McQueen is played alongside a back 4 consisting of only one first choice player. That can't be good for their development?

I am sure they will get time but hopefully as one change in the team not a group of changes, therefore it won't be that regular.

[Heisenberg]

Stephens is getting game time as is Prowse?

Obviously with less rotation the pull on the rest of the squad is less. So players outside the first 13/14 will be getting less game time whether they are academy or not.

Personally I think its important they get time but it's not helpful if, for example, McQueen is played alongside a back 4 consisting of only one first choice player. That can't be good for their development?

I am sure they will get time but hopefully as one change in the team not a group of changes, therefore it won't be that regular.

 

Hope youre right mate.

 

Sims omission has surprised me - burst onto the scenes vs Everton in November, signed a new contract and been given just 70 minutes across 6 games since.

[CB Fry]

Academy boys are now getting less n less playing time.

 

Sims and Reed have vanished and McQueen hasnt started a league game since Everton away.

 

Even Höjbjerg is now very limited and out of the squad fully at weekend.

 

Perhaps Koeman was right about the quality?

Hats off, that is superb stuff.

 

9/10.

[trousers]

Textbook

[Toadhall Saint]

Hope youre right mate.

 

Sims omission has surprised me - burst onto the scenes vs Everton in November, signed a new contract and been given just 70 minutes across 6 games since.

 

Any chance of you being omitted from here?

[Saint-Fred]

Hope youre right mate.

 

Sims omission has surprised me - burst onto the scenes vs Everton in November, signed a new contract and been given just 70 minutes across 6 games since.

 

On current form, who would you leave out for him though?

[simo]

Academy boys are now getting less n less playing time.

 

Sims and Reed have vanished and McQueen hasnt started a league game since Everton away.

 

Even Höjbjerg is now very limited and out of the squad fully at weekend.

 

Perhaps Koeman was right about the quality?

 

Swings and roundabouts!

[angelman]

On current form, who would you leave out for him though?

 

No one really. The only first team member that could be replaced, apart from Stephens is Forster

[Saint-Fred]

No one really. The only first team member that could be replaced, apart from Stephens is Forster

 

He's a bit short to go in goal..but then again being tall isn't helping Fraser at present!

[sotonjoe]

Some people seem to have forgotten that when Puel arrived we changed from a 4231 that had been tried and trusted to a diamond which I think was his favoured system in France. You can claim what you want and I think CP stated that the reason for the diamond was because he felt it took less out of the players during a time when we had a fixture pile up. Personally I don't agree with him and think we should have stuck to 4231 because it is a system proven to work for us. I think our overall results this season would have been better had we not introduced the diamond. Just my opinion and appreciate that many will disagree and that's what having debates on these forums is all about. I do accept that the introduction of Gabbiadini has been the icing on the cake for the 4231 system.

 

Interesting points.

 

please could you post your footballing cv, so I know how seriously to take your point of view?

[Dark Munster]

Concerning comments over the "system". We arguably never played a diamond. It was arguably always a 433 with the front three narrow. Even when Tadic was supposedly playing at the tip of the diamond, he was pushed up so high he was effectively a false nine in a 433 with a narrow front three. The "front 2" were split and defending the flanks…because that's literally where they were playing. Austin was defending against their full back as he was playing out wide for example. If we forget the arguable diamond with Tadic at the tip (which only happened for a few games) then for ages we played a 433 with a narrow front three. Redmond in the middle confused many, as he's not a striker. It wasn't a diamond, it really was 433 with Austin out wide (out wide being narrow, as he was playing like an inside forward/poacher and not like a proper winger at all). So we played 433 with an anchor midfielder (Romeu), 2 central midfielders without much license to get forward. It meant the front three has to work their socks off and we had one less attacking threat. Puel also persisted with Redmond central for far too long. Right now we have reverted to the 4231 which is much better. We've got Redmond where he should be (on the wing). Tadic is where he should be (really don't rate Tadic on the right wing, only rate him central or left wing). Ward-Prowse is in the position in my view that suits him most (right wing/right midfielder). The striker is getting more service and a proper one (not Redmond).

The shape of the team is better. We have more legs for attacking.

 

I can understand a manager trying to play his own formation, tactics, methods IF the players at his disposal are capable of playing the system better than a basic system like 4231. Puel overcomplicated massively at the start of the season. The players were used to playing 4231 and more suited to it. Right now he needs to stick with 4231 and put his foot down with Forster and Stephens.

 

Also I watched a Steve Waugh career overview on Sky SPorts earlier. First series as a captain of Australia he was 2-1 down away from home against the West Indies. He made the decision to drop Warne and then won the final match comfortably 2-2. A leader needs to be ruthless. Puel needs to be ruthless and drop Forster (who has been hopeless). He needs to be ruthless with Stepehens and accept that right now he's not good enough. Stephens has potential if he bulks up, gets stronger, bigger, bigger leap on him and more aggression. Until then an international class defender in Caceres should be playing instead. He needs to be ruthless, and honest with himself, that 4231 is the best option going forward and stick with it. A proper leader puts his team, and winning, before his own pride. It was a mistake not playing 4231 from the start. But he's put that right. Now he needs to get his side spot on or we will keep leaking goals.

Or more simply, we're playing better now that Les finally brought in a striker who can finish. And we'll stop leaking goals once our new CB settles in (and hopefully VVD gets fit).

 

It's Occam's razor, innit?