Saints 1 Sunderland 1 Match Reaction

[Saint_Ash]

Don't pretend you went to the game

 

[Supersubpuckett]

Boring game and rubbish performance. We offer no genuine threat up front firstly because of the system which is too slow, allows the oppo to get back and doesn't get the quick players down the wings (yet again there were countless times we could have broken away but nobody was in position)..and secondly Redmond is no striker and he's also a bit of a pussy when it comes to challenges. We also seem to be vulnerable to a break through the middle, which i ironic as thats where all our players seem to be.

 

The decision not to keep Koeman looks like it might be a bad one.

 

Having said that we were garbage in the first few games of last season too......

[Suhari]

Three options;

- find a way to play the formation Puel wants

- bring in a player(s) who will fit the system

- abandon the system

 

Whatever option they go for, and they are all possible, do it sooner rather than later.

 

What were your recommendations after the Europa exit last season?

[shurlock]

Chant of the day in the Itchen North... One Ronald Koeman.

 

I didn't join in, but understood the sentiment.

 

 

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Didnt hear that one. Where do you sit pal?

[spyinthesky]

A lot of negatives today – obviously 2 points dropped is the biggest setback in another ineffectual display where we spluttered at times, shone occasionally and finished strongly with a late point-saving goal….. a la Watford. The game had little to be enthusiastic about.

 

It was worrying to hear loud boos when Tadic was substituted, it was obvious the crowd were venting their frustration towards Puel. I can understand why, this disliked diamond formation is universally unpopular, but for the manager to get booed that audibly in only his third game, is not conducive to a smooth managerial transition. Actually I thought Puel got the decision right, we looked a better side after Long replaced Tadic. The Serbian had had a poor game with everything he tried not coming off. I am not his greatest fan but I do recognise on form he is very influential for us, but today he didn’t click and when your most creative player is not on song it is likely the team will struggle.

 

I didn’t hear it myself, but I gather in a post-match interview on Solent, van Dijk gave a negative interview which basically translated as the players do not like this diamond formation. In the old days what players thought counted for bugger all, but these days things are different and reading between the lines I am sensing there is a Paul Sturrock situation developing, which is a cause for concern. Many at the game today have commented on poor body language from the players and I feel we are entering dangerous territory already in the field of player/manager relations. How long will it be before there is a deputation to Ralph/Les I wonder? Player power rules these days.

 

For me today there were too many square pegs for round holes, especially upfront where Redmond and Austin, despite their hard work, were simply ineffectual. Austin made umpteen runs which no one in midfield spotted until it was too late and he was consequently offside. Very frustrating for him and the fans. I am not sure about Redmond, I would prefer Long or JayRod to be honest at the moment. Long must be mightily peeved that Redmond has been given the nod ahead of him.

 

But it is early days and if we appointed Puel knowing he favours the diamond system we have to grin and bear it and give him time – a precious commodity in the Premier League. When it comes to Saints I am a glass half empty fan, but I honestly think we have too many good players to go down - or even be threatened by relegation, and by all accounts, there is/are players coming in (albeit injured and off to Africa in January). But even if we bought the best forward in Europe tomorrow, I don’t think our problems would be solved overnight. This system is going to take a while to bed in, the trouble is time waits for no team in this league and the Europa Cup is not going to wait for us to find our feet either.

 

To end on some positives.

 

Although he is the whipping boy for many, I am a fan of Targett, I thought he had an excellent game today, making crucial tackles early on and in the second half getting forward with menace while still managing to fulfil his full-back duties. Bertand will replace him but it is important to recognise he has never let us down. It was also wonderful to see JayRod back on the scoresheet. Are we really going to let him out on loan? Surely he has got to be worth hanging onto, I would certainly rather see him in the line-up than some Italian prima donna like Zaza.

 

So all in all not a great day, especially with the Skates nicking a win at Exeter. Claude Puel will have a lot to ponder on over the break and Les will have to keep his nerve. Arsenal away is not a happy hunting ground and things may get significantly worse before they get better. We are gonna have to man up I think.

 

Finally what a poor ref Mason is – didn’t look a pen to me and his yellow cards were inconsistent. But he was not the reason we failed to get our first win.

 

Just my musings, sorry if it has been too long.

 

Duncan

 

Have to agree with you re Targett

 

In a team performance of mediocracy I thought Targett was one of the better performers.

 

I like the look of Hojberg but contributed towards the goal, losing possession (for the second time in quick succession, a fact he was man enough to acknowledge)

 

Disappointed with Charlie Austin's performance today and hopefully Jay R's goal will cause a rethink on his loan move.

 

Fortunately the goal was the result of the keeper's mistake (after playing well otherwise) but at least JR had a shot.

 

Too early to comment on Puel at the moment but it is a waste of time him being interviewed.

 

It is impossible to understand what he has to say.

 

I just hope his (and Eric Black's) appointments don't turn out to be the same as the 'Villa' effect predicted by an earlier poster.

[SaintRobbie]

Van Dijk's reaction says all you need to know

 

Seem's players are struggling to adapt to Puel's style of play

 

Must be as frustrating for them trying to play it as it is for us watching it, when I was watching the game today i noticed Van Dijk looked a bit out of sorts even with Jose Fonte his CB partner at the back he was constantly covering for Fonte's and others mistakes as slow tempo possession football replaced the more direct fast and pressing football of the 3 previous seasons, the most frustrating thing is Claude Puel and Eric Black seem totally oblivious to the fact we can only play one formation (His) without any plan B, this might of worked in the French league but the Premier League is a different kettle of fish as i'm sure is is discovering, hope he and the players can turn it round and discover a winning formula but in this league time is not a manager's friend if you don't get results

 

Yep. Clearly not happy with Puel's style of play.

 

 

 

 

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[Suhari]

Saints have taken good players and made them very good over the last 3 years.

 

This time feels different. We've taken good players and are making them poor.

 

Puel needs to start accepting responsibility for the on pitch fiasco. Les Reed for the off pitch fiasco.

 

I want to hear some honesty from Puel and our Boardroom.

 

We won't.

 

 

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How will we recognise honesty?

Edited 27 August, 2016 by Suhari

[SaintRobbie]

Boring game and rubbish performance. We offer no genuine threat up front firstly because of the system which is too slow, allows the oppo to get back and doesn't get the quick players down the wings (yet again there were countless times we could have broken away but nobody was in position)..and secondly Redmond is no striker and he's also a bit of a pussy when it comes to challenges. We also seem to be vulnerable to a break through the middle, which i ironic as thats where all our players seem to be.

 

The decision not to keep Koeman looks like it might be a bad one.

 

Having said that we were garbage in the first few games of last season too......

 

Yep - good post.

 

 

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[hypochondriac]

For me the simple question is of we were playing the same as last season would we have more points now? I'm afraid the answer for me is undoubtedly yes.

[Greenridge]

What were your recommendations after the Europa exit last season?

 

What on earth are you talking about?

[shurlock]

Thought Hojbjerg showed his inexperience and immaturity today. Didn't have a bad game for large chunks; but seemed to lose his head after that c**t Mason gave a few dodgy decisions against hime. Started trying too much and was guilty of giving away th ball that led to the pen. Had been warned just a few mins earlier when Watmore dispossessed him in a very dangerous position and Sunderland should have capitalised.

 

Will be a v.good player but there will quite a few growing pains along the way.

[alpine_saint]

This. I thought we had a blueprint, that's what we've all been told so if we did, I'd imagine that'll have to be ripped up if all age groups are now playing this way.

 

Interestingly, the results of the U23 and the U18 especially have improved....

[shurlock]

For me the simple question is of we were playing the same as last season would we have more points now? I'm afraid the answer for me is undoubtedly yes.

 

Its a pretty much meaningless question as the quality isn't the same as last season. You're basically comparing apples and pears.

[Crab Lungs]

There are no words.

 

Case in point, Seth Johnson

[aintforever]

 

The decision not to keep Koeman looks like it might be a bad one.

 

If it was the club's decision, that is a bit of an understatement.

[Give it to Ron]

Yep. Clearly not happy with Puel's style of play.

 

 

 

 

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That is my biggest concern the players don't look happy at all and several times today argued Fonte and VVD had words on a few occasions.

Can those with better knowledge tell me which players this formation suits because all I see is 10 lost sheep. Do you think we are getting the best out of players we have?

Given we were atrocious for 20 minutes at end of first half wouldn't you have changed formation at all.?

 

 

 

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[adrian lord]

Well, VVD's interview was not filtered through media training or PR guff, was it! Very honest. Labours the point several times that they have to adapt to a new system the manager is requiring them to play, and hints at the question why, given they finished 6th and on record points only 3 months ago. But the key thing is VVD does not seem the least bit enthusiastic about the prospect of the new system and formation. He would have looked more enthusiastic if he'd been asked to clean up some cat sick. My fear is that the droning Puel is not inspiring the group to convert to his methods nor imparting any enthusiasm or relish for the challenge in them.

Edited 27 August, 2016 by adrian lord

[david in sweden]

Nothing wrong with the formation, manager or board. Simple lack of intelligence, invention and movement upfront is all that cost us. Started well, Austin on his toes but by the time he was rightly dragged off he was just static. Things were a lot better when Jay Rod came on and Redmond dropped into the whole. Those two and Long playing quick passes with movement trying to break lines sparked us again. Tadic quiet but Austin and Fonte especially were really really poor. The rest of the team is more than OK. Dominated the game. The formation is more than fine. A decent right back wouldn't go a miss and Bertrand back will help but the formation relies on fluid movement upfront with clever play. Austin and Tadic didn't provide that today. Jay Rod and Redmond did.

 

Think this formation really suits Rodriguez so I'm hoping we keep him. Playing wide, cutting inside looking for one two's and having a strike from range is exactly what this formation needs and it's exactly what Rodriguez brings. Austin can do one though. I sit next to a guy who seems to love him but I have yet to see him offer anything to us. Obviously he has his talents and he showcased them for QPR of course but he's been here since January and I dont know what he's done to deserve to be starting games.

 

another good, well thought out analysis, but you must be careful Fabrice....this sort of sensible post really does upset our bedwetters and the potential wrist-slitters.

 

A poor start to the season (once again) and Armageddon is coming in two weeks time .... some people on here need to get a grip. Still 35 games to go.

[Give it to Ron]

another good, well thought out analysis, but you must be careful Fabrice....this sort of sensible post really does upset our bedwetters and the potential wrist-slitters.

 

A poor start to the season (once again) and Armageddon is coming in two weeks time .... some people on here need to get a grip. Still 35 games to go.

 

Had you been there today an watched the players closely you may not be so happy clappy.

Yes it's early days, yes the club deserve credit for past but there are serious flaws with this formation with the players playing it today.

To try and shoe horn into a formation they just can't play and look lost against a shocking Sunderland and worryingly outplayed for 20 minutes before half time rings alarm bells.

Ignore VVD if you like but if you watched him recently you would see this.

 

 

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[doddisalegend]

For me the simple question is of we were playing the same as last season would we have more points now? I'm afraid the answer for me is undoubtedly yes.

 

err except at this time last season after 3 games we didn't have more points playing the way we played last season, were lower in the table, and had conceded more goals.....

[John Boy Saint]

First 20 mins, great - after that, trash. No penetration in the final third and a really really poor effort in midfield as the game went on, we never had control over it. Sunderland didn't threaten a great deal, but there was always a risk that just one moment could go their way if we kept playing as casual and slow as we were - and it did. Jose was way too tight to someone like Defoe, that's exactly how he plays CB's and I'd have hoped Jose would have known all about that.

 

It was all too little too late after that, a late rally - but you have to wonder why we couldn't pepper them like that over the course of the match. It was way too much side ways and backwards for the majority of that game, almost trying to create the perfect goal as opposed to playing the situation or conditions (very arsenal esque). The players seemed somewhat confused at times.

 

Also a note on Davis....I don't like the role he has, I don't think he's suited as this sort of midfielder, he needs to be in the attacking third running at defenses - not the last line of midfield trying to stop attacks/break up play, he's too small and weak for that.

 

It's still way too early to jump to any sort of conclusions and it just feels a little bit of a slow start more than anything, I don't see any glaring catastrophic problems - lots of rustiness and lack of match sharpness though.

 

Strange that under Pochettino and Koeman we were just the same final third: slow down - fanny around.

As a mate who no longer goes once said walking home post match "it's all a bit after you Claude in front of goal" (bit spooky).

Drives Mrs JBS (who I have to admit knows her onions when it comes to football and is far less emotional than me) up the wall.

 

As for all these Targett knockers lay off him, he's stood out on the wing in acres of space doing the Times crossword whilst twirling his thumbs, when he gets the ball it's behind him so he has to check his run, or its behind him and poor and he has been hung out to dry, as for that free kick it wasn't a million miles away from the top corner, if anyone there paying attention noticed Virgil had a word in his ear when they were having a meeting round the ball, wouldn't be surprised if he told him to have a crack.

 

Talking of Virgil, post match on Solent he was pretty blunt in saying the players need to get with the system.

[Fabrice29]

Don't really see how the formation is massively different to what we've played before. It asks for 3 fluid front players. Today especially it didn't have 3 fluid front players. Last season at times we were just as confused and static and we played 3 front players who were asked to be fluid. They are a little more central but ultimately the last couple of seasons we've asked our full backs to be our width anyway. The only thing this formation doesn't encourage is overlaps and one twos out wide with Pelle used to thrive on the resulting crosses. We had many times last season when people moaned on here about crosses being **** and dealing with us easily, now we've changed it up they're still moaning. You could also make a serious case for Sunderland, Watford and United defenders being set up to be able to deal with big target men just as easily as well. Further to this I think whilst one player wont completely solve the issue Bertrand is much better than Targett going forward. He offers more penetration, more variety and more pace. Cedric is just as guff in this formation as he was the last.

 

Yes it's different but not massively. It's 4 at the back with the full backs playing wide and pushing forward. It's a front 3 which needs to be fluid, intelligent, inventive and brave. It's a midfield 3 which has a protector and two box to box midfielders. Last year we played 4 at the back with the full backs playing wide and pushing forward. It had a protector in Wanyama and a box to box midfielder in Davis sometimes with either Romeu another protector or Ward Prowse a box to box midfielder and it's fair to say Hoijberg is good enough to do both roles. It was a front 3 which was fluid, intelligent, inventive and brave, just starting slightly more centrally this time round but they do have the license to move out wide.

 

I'm glad to see VVD is ****ed off. Yes we are asking them to play a different way, that's what happens when your manager walks out on you, you get someone else in and he might have the odd different idea, although as I've said I dont think it's hugely different, still relies on possession and intelligent play. Yes we had success last season but you cant stand still, you need to change things up at times otherwise people find you out. Also one major thing VVD did say in that interview...the formation is not an excuse.

[SaintRobbie]

err except at this time last season after 3 games we didn't have more points playing the way we played last season, were lower in the table, and had conceded more goals.....

 

And had Pelle, Mané and Wanyama... and Koeman.

 

Things then got better - and we all had faith and said it would get better.

 

This time we can all see Puel failing and we are x3 high quality players light.

 

 

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[Saint Billy]

another good, well thought out analysis, but you must be careful Fabrice....this sort of sensible post really does upset our bedwetters and the potential wrist-slitters.

 

A poor start to the season (once again) and Armageddon is coming in two weeks time .... some people on here need to get a grip. Still 35 games to go.

 

You do realise that last seasons poor start was with Koeman at the helm dont you?. Meaning that perhaps there was more faith in Koeman sorting the problem out than there is with Puel who is a somewhat unknown quantity and whom seems fixated on playing a system that is obviosly not working.

[Give it to Ron]

Don't really see how the formation is massively different to what we've played before. It asks for 3 fluid front players. Today especially it didn't have 3 fluid front players. Last season at times we were just as confused and static and we played 3 front players who were asked to be fluid. They are a little more central but ultimately the last couple of seasons we've asked our full backs to be our width anyway. The only thing this formation doesn't encourage is overlaps and one twos out wide with Pelle used to thrive on the resulting crosses. We had many times last season when people moaned on here about crosses being **** and dealing with us easily, now we've changed it up they're still moaning. You could also make a serious case for Sunderland, Watford and United defenders being set up to be able to deal with big target men just as easily as well. Further to this I think whilst one player wont completely solve the issue Bertrand is much better than Targett going forward. He offers more penetration, more variety and more pace. Cedric is just as guff in this formation as he was the last.

 

Yes it's different but not massively. It's 4 at the back with the full backs playing wide and pushing forward. It's a front 3 which needs to be fluid, intelligent, inventive and brave. It's a midfield 3 which has a protector and two box to box midfielders. Last year we played 4 at the back with the full backs playing wide and pushing forward. It had a protector in Wanyama and a box to box midfielder in Davis sometimes with either Romeu another protector or Ward Prowse a box to box midfielder and it's fair to say Hoijberg is good enough to do both roles. It was a front 3 which was fluid, intelligent, inventive and brave, just starting slightly more centrally this time round but they do have the license to move out wide.

 

I'm glad to see VVD is ****ed off. Yes we are asking them to play a different way, that's what happens when your manager walks out on you, you get someone else in and he might have the odd different idea, although as I've said I dont think it's hugely different, still relies on possession and intelligent play. Yes we had success last season but you cant stand still, you need to change things up at times otherwise people find you out. Also one major thing VVD did say in that interview...the formation is not an excuse.

 

Some good points Fabrice but do you think this suits the current players and is getting the best of what we have?

Redmond and Tadic look better wide - Redmond looked good too after Tadic went off.

Worth a look at Jayrod/Long in middle with Tadic left Redmond wide right? Romeu JP holding central I felt JP wasted a bit wide right diamond.

Possession is fine if you have it in opponents half not between defenders.

 

 

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[Sour Mash]

I haven't read the whole thread, and I agree it's a disappointing result, in a weird way our easy early home fixtures have counted against us, but I actually think we look good. Not a million miles off a top 6/7 team.

[James]

I'm not particularly concerned by the results or the number of points we've got, that's all irrelevant at this stage. That said, the way we are playing is a cause for concern.

 

I don't buy all the posters who are saying we lack talent, we don't. We've got a decent spine with Forster, VVD, Hojberg and Long. The formation is the problem, pure and simple. On a purely theoretical level I can understand why the diamond is an attractive formation for managers and was in favour of Hodgson trying it with England prior to the Euros. However, in practice, I don't really see any advantages to it. By playing two up top you sacrifice a midfielder and therefore some stability in the middle of the park but we seem to be weaker defensively and weaker going forward. There were times in the second half where we couldn't really get the ball off Sunderland and were completely overrun in midfield, slightly concerning against a team that really aren't great, although one that does seem to have developed a spine under Moyes.

 

I could see the diamond working well for a team like Liverpool where you have a transient front three that all have pace and strength (Coutinho, Mane and Firmino) but we just don't have the players for it. Tadic's best moment, for me, was when he beat a man on the left wing (like he used to) and whipped a decent cross over, playing in the centre he just isn't as effective. A few decent touches and through balls but he is, in my opinion, much better on the left.

 

Austin doesn't look right in this formation, he hasn't got the pace to close players down as the strikers are asked to do in this formation and frequently receives the ball much too deep and hasn't got the place, strength or dribbling ability to move forward with it effectively.

 

As others have said, Redmond isn't good enough as a striker at the moment but did look much better as a number 10 running forward from deep. The only striker who looks as if he might fit the system at the moment is Long, he must start every game from now on for me. I also think that JRod would be perfect for this system if he was fit. He looked decent in his cameo but I hope we don't change our decision on bringing someone better or more reliable in because he scored a scuffed shot that should have been saved. I applaud him for taking a shot on goal but, realistically, it should have been easily prevented. If he's fit and firing we must keep him, but we shouldn't change our decision on him for the sake of that goal.

 

My other concern is that we move the ball much too slowly and there's too much focus on keeping possession and almost 'overplaying'. By playing more and more short passes we only increased the number of opportunities for players to make individual errors and miscontrols. Even our best players, like Hojberg, miscontrolled and gave the ball away in midfield as a result of us playing so many passes and playing such a slow build up game. It seems counterintuitive to me to be implementing a system that's based on slow, possession football when last season we saw Leicester win the league by playing counter attacking football and having very little possession. I read that Claude had said we were focusing on a possession game to try and conserve energy when we have to contend with two games in a week. To me that's a lame reason, Spurs, for example, will have to play two games a week but you don't see Potch compromising his high press, all action style to save energy. I appreciate they've got a larger, higher quality squad but I think its a shame to compromise our weekly playing style just to manage our playing schedule.

 

It's clear the St Marys crowd are incredibly frustrated and edgy and, whilst I think it ridiculous, the booing of the Tadic substitution was worrying. The atmosphere around the club seems quite negative at the moment, many around me who are usually pretty upbeat are frustrated with our board's willingness to sell our best players and our sluggishness in the transfer market. The signing of Boufal seems imminent but I'm not sure he'll do much to turn the tide in the short term if he's injured. Once he comes back he will take a couple of weeks at least to get into it so it could be almost Christmas before he makes the impact we are hoping for. I hope I'm wrong but the pressure could really be on by December if we carry on playing like this.

 

As FF says, I do really hope that we don't have another Sturrock situation on our hands as the players do seem frustrated and to dislike the system. I've noticed a few arguments amongst the players in both the Man U and the Sunderland game so hope that doesn't come to a head. When our best player (VVD) comes out with quotes like he has after a game then the alarm bells do start sounding for me.

 

Puel needs time but he also needs to recognise when something isn't working and change it. I hope that he is prepared to revert to 4-3-2-1, at least in the interim, as I do think we are better suited to that system. We played the wrong system in the early games under RK last year and got murdered by Everton but we changed things and results did turn. Here's hoping CP can do the same.

 

There has, no doubt, been some overreaction on here but the fact is we finished 6th last year and had a chance to push on and make a real statement but that just hasn't materialised both in terms of the managerial appointment and our transfer activity and I think this underlying frustration amongst the wider fanbase is exacerbated by a slow start and a couple of pretty poor performance.

 

Shame that it's Arsenal away next as we'll do well to get any change out of them. Oh well, on to the next!

[Heisenberg]

but I actually think we look good. Not a million miles off a top 6/7 team.

 

LOL! Top 6/7 team in Scotland premiership maybe

[doddisalegend]

Some good points Fabrice but do you think this suits the current players and is getting the best of what we have?

Redmond and Tadic look better wide - Redmond looked good too after Tadic went off.

Worth a look at Jayrod/Long in middle with Tadic left Redmond wide right? Romeu JP holding central I felt JP wasted a bit wide right diamond.

Possession is fine if you have it in opponents half not between defenders.

 

 

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When he dropped into the middle behind the strikers rather than out wide is when he had his best spell of the game he actually started to look dangerous

[Give it to Ron]

I'm not particularly concerned by the results or the number of points we've got, that's all irrelevant at this stage. That said, the way we are playing is a cause for concern.

 

I don't buy all the posters who are saying we lack talent, we don't. We've got a decent spine with Forster, VVD, Hojberg and Long. The formation is the problem, pure and simple. On a purely theoretical level I can understand why the diamond is an attractive formation for managers and was in favour of Hodgson trying it with England prior to the Euros. However, in practice, I don't really see any advantages to it. By playing two up top you sacrifice a midfielder and therefore some stability in the middle of the park but we seem to be weaker defensively and weaker going forward. There were times in the second half where we couldn't really get the ball off Sunderland and were completely overrun in midfield, slightly concerning against a team that really aren't great, although one that does seem to have developed a spine under Moyes.

 

I could see the diamond working well for a team like Liverpool where you have a transient front three that all have pace and strength (Coutinho, Mane and Firmino) but we just don't have the players for it. Tadic's best moment, for me, was when he beat a man on the left wing (like he used to) and whipped a decent cross over, playing in the centre he just isn't as effective. A few decent touches and through balls but he is, in my opinion, much better on the left.

 

Austin doesn't look right in this formation, he hasn't got the pace to close players down as the strikers are asked to do in this formation and frequently receives the ball much too deep and hasn't got the place, strength or dribbling ability to move forward with it effectively.

 

As others have said, Redmond isn't good enough as a striker at the moment but did look much better as a number 10 running forward from deep. The only striker who looks as if he might fit the system at the moment is Long, he must start every game from now on for me. I also think that JRod would be perfect for this system if he was fit. He looked decent in his cameo but I hope we don't change our decision on bringing someone better or more reliable in because he scored a scuffed shot that should have been saved. I applaud him for taking a shot on goal but, realistically, it should have been easily prevented. If he's fit and firing we must keep him, but we shouldn't change our decision on him for the sake of that goal.

 

My other concern is that we move the ball much too slowly and there's too much focus on keeping possession and almost 'overplaying'. By playing more and more short passes we only increased the number of opportunities for players to make individual errors and miscontrols. Even our best players, like Hojberg, miscontrolled and gave the ball away in midfield as a result of us playing so many passes and playing such a slow build up game. It seems counterintuitive to me to be implementing a system that's based on slow, possession football when last season we saw Leicester win the league by playing counter attacking football and having very little possession. I read that Claude had said we were focusing on a possession game to try and conserve energy when we have to contend with two games in a week. To me that's a lame reason, Spurs, for example, will have to play two games a week but you don't see Potch compromising his high press, all action style to save energy. I appreciate they've got a larger, higher quality squad but I think its a shame to compromise our weekly playing style just to manage our playing schedule.

 

It's clear the St Marys crowd are incredibly frustrated and edgy and, whilst I think it ridiculous, the booing of the Tadic substitution was worrying. The atmosphere around the club seems quite negative at the moment, many around me who are usually pretty upbeat are frustrated with our board's willingness to sell our best players and our sluggishness in the transfer market. The signing of Boufal seems imminent but I'm not sure he'll do much to turn the tide in the short term if he's injured. Once he comes back he will take a couple of weeks at least to get into it so it could be almost Christmas before he makes the impact we are hoping for. I hope I'm wrong but the pressure could really be on by December if we carry on playing like this.

 

As FF says, I do really hope that we don't have another Sturrock situation on our hands as the players do seem frustrated and to dislike the system. I've noticed a few arguments amongst the players in both the Man U and the Sunderland game so hope that doesn't come to a head. When our best player (VVD) comes out with quotes like he has after a game then the alarm bells do start sounding for me.

 

Puel needs time but he also needs to recognise when something isn't working and change it. I hope that he is prepared to revert to 4-3-2-1, at least in the interim, as I do think we are better suited to that system. We played the wrong system in the early games under RK last year and got murdered by Everton but we changed things and results did turn. Here's hoping CP can do the same.

 

There has, no doubt, been some overreaction on here but the fact is we finished 6th last year and had a chance to push on and make a real statement but that just hasn't materialised both in terms of the managerial appointment and our transfer activity and I think this underlying frustration amongst the wider fanbase is exacerbated by a slow start and a couple of pretty poor performance.

 

Shame that it's Arsenal away next as we'll do well to get any change out of them. Oh well, on to the next!

 

Great post nail on head.

 

 

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[doddisalegend]

And had Pelle, Mané and Wanyama... and Koeman.

 

Things then got better - and we all had faith and said it would get better.

 

This time we can all see Puel failing and we are x3 high quality players light.

 

 

 

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of course you did

 

[Bailey]

I'm not particularly concerned by the results or the number of points we've got, that's all irrelevant at this stage. That said, the way we are playing is a cause for concern.

 

I don't buy all the posters who are saying we lack talent, we don't. We've got a decent spine with Forster, VVD, Hojberg and Long. The formation is the problem, pure and simple. On a purely theoretical level I can understand why the diamond is an attractive formation for managers and was in favour of Hodgson trying it with England prior to the Euros. However, in practice, I don't really see any advantages to it. By playing two up top you sacrifice a midfielder and therefore some stability in the middle of the park but we seem to be weaker defensively and weaker going forward. There were times in the second half where we couldn't really get the ball off Sunderland and were completely overrun in midfield, slightly concerning against a team that really aren't great, although one that does seem to have developed a spine under Moyes.

 

I could see the diamond working well for a team like Liverpool where you have a transient front three that all have pace and strength (Coutinho, Mane and Firmino) but we just don't have the players for it. Tadic's best moment, for me, was when he beat a man on the left wing (like he used to) and whipped a decent cross over, playing in the centre he just isn't as effective. A few decent touches and through balls but he is, in my opinion, much better on the left.

 

Austin doesn't look right in this formation, he hasn't got the pace to close players down as the strikers are asked to do in this formation and frequently receives the ball much too deep and hasn't got the place, strength or dribbling ability to move forward with it effectively.

 

As others have said, Redmond isn't good enough as a striker at the moment but did look much better as a number 10 running forward from deep. The only striker who looks as if he might fit the system at the moment is Long, he must start every game from now on for me. I also think that JRod would be perfect for this system if he was fit. He looked decent in his cameo but I hope we don't change our decision on bringing someone better or more reliable in because he scored a scuffed shot that should have been saved. I applaud him for taking a shot on goal but, realistically, it should have been easily prevented. If he's fit and firing we must keep him, but we shouldn't change our decision on him for the sake of that goal.

 

My other concern is that we move the ball much too slowly and there's too much focus on keeping possession and almost 'overplaying'. By playing more and more short passes we only increased the number of opportunities for players to make individual errors and miscontrols. Even our best players, like Hojberg, miscontrolled and gave the ball away in midfield as a result of us playing so many passes and playing such a slow build up game. It seems counterintuitive to me to be implementing a system that's based on slow, possession football when last season we saw Leicester win the league by playing counter attacking football and having very little possession. I read that Claude had said we were focusing on a possession game to try and conserve energy when we have to contend with two games in a week. To me that's a lame reason, Spurs, for example, will have to play two games a week but you don't see Potch compromising his high press, all action style to save energy. I appreciate they've got a larger, higher quality squad but I think its a shame to compromise our weekly playing style just to manage our playing schedule.

 

It's clear the St Marys crowd are incredibly frustrated and edgy and, whilst I think it ridiculous, the booing of the Tadic substitution was worrying. The atmosphere around the club seems quite negative at the moment, many around me who are usually pretty upbeat are frustrated with our board's willingness to sell our best players and our sluggishness in the transfer market. The signing of Boufal seems imminent but I'm not sure he'll do much to turn the tide in the short term if he's injured. Once he comes back he will take a couple of weeks at least to get into it so it could be almost Christmas before he makes the impact we are hoping for. I hope I'm wrong but the pressure could really be on by December if we carry on playing like this.

 

As FF says, I do really hope that we don't have another Sturrock situation on our hands as the players do seem frustrated and to dislike the system. I've noticed a few arguments amongst the players in both the Man U and the Sunderland game so hope that doesn't come to a head. When our best player (VVD) comes out with quotes like he has after a game then the alarm bells do start sounding for me.

 

Puel needs time but he also needs to recognise when something isn't working and change it. I hope that he is prepared to revert to 4-3-2-1, at least in the interim, as I do think we are better suited to that system. We played the wrong system in the early games under RK last year and got murdered by Everton but we changed things and results did turn. Here's hoping CP can do the same.

 

There has, no doubt, been some overreaction on here but the fact is we finished 6th last year and had a chance to push on and make a real statement but that just hasn't materialised both in terms of the managerial appointment and our transfer activity and I think this underlying frustration amongst the wider fanbase is exacerbated by a slow start and a couple of pretty poor performance.

 

Shame that it's Arsenal away next as we'll do well to get any change out of them. Oh well, on to the next!

 

Enjoyed reading that and sums up how a lot of fans are feeling IMO.

[shurlock]

I'm not particularly concerned by the results or the number of points we've got, that's all irrelevant at this stage. That said, the way we are playing is a cause for concern.

 

I don't buy all the posters who are saying we lack talent, we don't. We've got a decent spine with Forster, VVD, Hojberg and Long. The formation is the problem, pure and simple. On a purely theoretical level I can understand why the diamond is an attractive formation for managers and was in favour of Hodgson trying it with England prior to the Euros. However, in practice, I don't really see any advantages to it. By playing two up top you sacrifice a midfielder and therefore some stability in the middle of the park but we seem to be weaker defensively and weaker going forward. There were times in the second half where we couldn't really get the ball off Sunderland and were completely overrun in midfield, slightly concerning against a team that really aren't great, although one that does seem to have developed a spine under Moyes.

 

I could see the diamond working well for a team like Liverpool where you have a transient front three that all have pace and strength (Coutinho, Mane and Firmino) but we just don't have the players for it. Tadic's best moment, for me, was when he beat a man on the left wing (like he used to) and whipped a decent cross over, playing in the centre he just isn't as effective. A few decent touches and through balls but he is, in my opinion, much better on the left.

 

Austin doesn't look right in this formation, he hasn't got the pace to close players down as the strikers are asked to do in this formation and frequently receives the ball much too deep and hasn't got the place, strength or dribbling ability to move forward with it effectively.

 

As others have said, Redmond isn't good enough as a striker at the moment but did look much better as a number 10 running forward from deep. The only striker who looks as if he might fit the system at the moment is Long, he must start every game from now on for me. I also think that JRod would be perfect for this system if he was fit. He looked decent in his cameo but I hope we don't change our decision on bringing someone better or more reliable in because he scored a scuffed shot that should have been saved. I applaud him for taking a shot on goal but, realistically, it should have been easily prevented. If he's fit and firing we must keep him, but we shouldn't change our decision on him for the sake of that goal.

 

My other concern is that we move the ball much too slowly and there's too much focus on keeping possession and almost 'overplaying'. By playing more and more short passes we only increased the number of opportunities for players to make individual errors and miscontrols. Even our best players, like Hojberg, miscontrolled and gave the ball away in midfield as a result of us playing so many passes and playing such a slow build up game. It seems counterintuitive to me to be implementing a system that's based on slow, possession football when last season we saw Leicester win the league by playing counter attacking football and having very little possession. I read that Claude had said we were focusing on a possession game to try and conserve energy when we have to contend with two games in a week. To me that's a lame reason, Spurs, for example, will have to play two games a week but you don't see Potch compromising his high press, all action style to save energy. I appreciate they've got a larger, higher quality squad but I think its a shame to compromise our weekly playing style just to manage our playing schedule.

 

It's clear the St Marys crowd are incredibly frustrated and edgy and, whilst I think it ridiculous, the booing of the Tadic substitution was worrying. The atmosphere around the club seems quite negative at the moment, many around me who are usually pretty upbeat are frustrated with our board's willingness to sell our best players and our sluggishness in the transfer market. The signing of Boufal seems imminent but I'm not sure he'll do much to turn the tide in the short term if he's injured. Once he comes back he will take a couple of weeks at least to get into it so it could be almost Christmas before he makes the impact we are hoping for. I hope I'm wrong but the pressure could really be on by December if we carry on playing like this.

 

As FF says, I do really hope that we don't have another Sturrock situation on our hands as the players do seem frustrated and to dislike the system. I've noticed a few arguments amongst the players in both the Man U and the Sunderland game so hope that doesn't come to a head. When our best player (VVD) comes out with quotes like he has after a game then the alarm bells do start sounding for me.

 

Puel needs time but he also needs to recognise when something isn't working and change it. I hope that he is prepared to revert to 4-3-2-1, at least in the interim, as I do think we are better suited to that system. We played the wrong system in the early games under RK last year and got murdered by Everton but we changed things and results did turn. Here's hoping CP can do the same.

 

There has, no doubt, been some overreaction on here but the fact is we finished 6th last year and had a chance to push on and make a real statement but that just hasn't materialised both in terms of the managerial appointment and our transfer activity and I think this underlying frustration amongst the wider fanbase is exacerbated by a slow start and a couple of pretty poor performance.

 

Shame that it's Arsenal away next as we'll do well to get any change out of them. Oh well, on to the next!

 

Your understanding is a bit off. You realise the rationale for a diamond is that it makes teams stronger in the middle of the park. It gives us 3 CMs rather than 2 CMs - it's no coincidence that we've controlled possession and looked pretty compact.

[AR-10]

Just flicking through this thread, I'm pretty sure we didn't lose 5-0 today.

 

Good grief. 3 games in.

 

I thought it was ok today for 3 games in under a new manager and system.

[James]

Your understanding is a bit off. You realise the rationale for a diamond is that it makes teams stronger in the middle of the park. It gives us 3 CMs rather than 2 CMs - it's no coincidence that we've controlled possession and looked pretty compact.

 

Even if that is true, and I'm not sure it is, I don't think anyone can say we've looked compact. We look much more exposed in midfield in the three games this season than we did last year. Against Watford and Sunderland we, in my view, lost control of the midfield for long periods and against Man U Pogba basically had the freedom of Old Trafford. We've made an awful lot of last ditch and recovery challenges in these few games and I think it results from an over reliance on Romeu to provide defensive midfield cover.

[Give it to Ron]

Your understanding is a bit off. You realise the rationale for a diamond is that it makes teams stronger in the middle of the park. It gives us 3 CMs rather than 2 CMs - it's no coincidence that we've controlled possession and looked pretty compact.

 

Not today we didn't how many last ditch tackles did we have second half? If it makes us stronger in middle it certainly makes us weaker wide - several free crosses into dangerous areas not closed down.

Sunderland couldn't hit a cows arse ........highlighted by Borinis free kick and Kone? Header that he should have buried.

Stronger if there is not a massive gap between top and bottom of diamond - first half Davis was too narrow leaving Targett on his own.

Respect opinion but didn't think we were compact today .

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[way down south]

sh\t! there are some uncomfortable similarities b/n puel and van gaal from last few seasons. Both play boring football with no more than a goal in each game coming no sooner than the 80th minute, both are absolutely proud of their "65% possession 20 shots but 1 on target" stats, both shove players in some strange positions (ashley young as a striker), both are utterly oblivious as to what the fans OR the players want, both have no plan b, only thing remaining is will puel leave us in a considerably worse position than we should be?!

[stknowle]

Well that was dire. Formation just doesn't suit the players we have.

 

First fifteen minutes was decent with some cute build up play but no cutting edge. We really needed to score during that period of pressure.

 

Austin was terrible. Looks overweight and completely knackered after our bright opening spell. Offside about 5 times clearly because he doesn't trust himself to beat the defender one on one. Not sure why Puel took so long to haul him off.

 

Lack of width is worrying and needs rectifying. We also need a forward who can hold the ball up and stretch the defensive line with a bit of pace. Hopefully Boufal when fit can provide a bit of invention.

 

Pluses were Hojberg who looks a class above and the lack of queue for beers at half time.

 

Puel needs to learn quickly about this league as its been a poor start. Diamond needs to go.

 

 

 

 

Agree, not impressed with him at all today. Lumbered around and took on shots early presumably because of his lack of mobility.

[Dalek2003]

If we have 'another Sturrock' situation on our hands, can we do the right thing and bring back Hoddle next time ! LOL

[Pat from Poole]

Yeah completely embarrassing by a number of Dinlo's. That well helped.

 

I was in the Itchen North, and thought we got properly behind the team today.

[Pat from Poole]

It can't have been much of a chant cause I'm in the itchen north and never heard it so probably less a chant and more 5 ****ed guys thinking they were funny.

 

Agreed. I was in Block 01/02, and I never heard anybody singing "One Ronald Koeman".

[Guan 2.0]

Unfortunately I didn't get to even listen to the match today, But I heard the crowd were chanting for Booze at halftime? If Saintsweb users could pick any two posistions to strengthen, what would they be? And would you say that the manager is feeling the pressure from fans if he changes his stance from 'We are happy with what we have', to the more honest 'We are looking to bring a couple in' ?

[stknowle]

This. Give the bloke a chance. People are maybe pre-judging him because he doesn’t speak wonderful English yet, but he is one of the best and most flexible coaches there is.

 

The team is actually in a BETTER position than this time last year. Same number of points, but we have conceded fewer. Also last year we did not play Mourinho's Man U away as our second match (where we also dominated possession and chances created). Yes, some tinkering is needed, and we are lacking two attackers, but this will be sorted out.

 

Agree he should be given a chance, won't boo him, but my instincts and the football I've seen us play so far are telling me his appointment is a mistake. Totally hope I'm wrong.

[shurlock]

Even if that is true, and I'm not sure it is, I don't think anyone can say we've looked compact. We look much more exposed in midfield in the three games this season than we did last year. Against Watford and Sunderland we, in my view, lost control of the midfield for long periods and against Man U Pogba basically had the freedom of Old Trafford. We've made an awful lot of last ditch and recovery challenges in these few games and I think it results from an over reliance on Romeu to provide defensive midfield cover.

 

We're watching different games then. I can't really remember us being overrun -no more than is the norm in every topsy-turvy prem game. I certainly can't remember Forster making any saves of note. Today's goal came from an unforced mistake. I'm willing to wager we would be even more vulnerable if we went with the old formation and with Romeu Hojbjerg/Clasie as the two holding players which suggests the issue is one of personnel, not formation. The diamond arguably compensates for those weaknesses.

 

That's not to say there are not disadvantages - it makes teams narrow both defensively and offensively which requires athleticism to pull off (and we don't have too many athletes). But to say it sacrifices stability in the middle of the park betrays a basic lack of understanding.

Edited 27 August, 2016 by shurlock

[Pat from Poole]

I sit in Kingsland central and I heard it, twice it was sung in the first half. Most comical bit was some matey near me sayng it was cause koeman has gone to Newcastle.

 

Rubbish. The only song like that I heard in the first half was "There's only one Alan Shearer" to wind the Sun'lan lot up. Upset them a bit, I think.

[James]

Unfortunately I didn't get to even listen to the match today, But I heard the crowd were chanting for Booze at halftime? If Saintsweb users could pick any two posistions to strengthen, what would they be? And would you say that the manager is feeling the pressure from fans if he changes his stance from 'We are happy with what we have', to the more honest 'We are looking to bring a couple in' ?

 

We need another attacker (at least) and I think another defensive midfielder to take the heat of Romeu. But, mainly, we need a change of formation.

[Heisenberg]

sh\t! there are some uncomfortable similarities b/n puel and van gaal from last few seasons. Both play boring football with no more than a goal in each game coming no sooner than the 80th minute, both are absolutely proud of their "65% possession 20 shots but 1 on target" stats, both shove players in some strange positions (ashley young as a striker), both are utterly oblivious as to what the fans OR the players want, both have no plan b, only thing remaining is will puel leave us in a considerably worse position than we should be?!

 

Scary but true imho

[Give it to Ron]

Unfortunately I didn't get to even listen to the match today, But I heard the crowd were chanting for Booze at halftime? If Saintsweb users could pick any two posistions to strengthen, what would they be? And would you say that the manager is feeling the pressure from fans if he changes his stance from 'We are happy with what we have', to the more honest 'We are looking to bring a couple in' ?

 

We need a spine - Fonte cover - a goal scoring midfielder and a mobile Pelle clone as not one of our forwards can hold and link it well enough. Can we stick Rickie in a time machine he is what we need!

 

 

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[S-Clarke]

We're watching different games then. I can't really remember us being overrun -no more than is the norm in every topsy-turvy prem game. I certainly can't remember Forster making any saves of note. I'm willing to wager we would be even more vulnerable if we went with the old formation and with Romeu Hojbjerg/Clasie as the two holding players which suggests the issue is one of personnel, not formation. The diamond arguably compensates for those weaknesses.

 

That's not to say there are not disadvantages - it makes teams narrow both defensively and offensively which requires athleticism to pull off (and we don't have too many athletes). But to say it sacrifices stability in the middle of the park betrays a basic lack of understanding.

 

There were times I felt we had a lack of control, I wasn't as impressed with the ball retention through the middle as I have been in other games this year - we were pretty sloppy, and Romeu wasn't at the races again (for me).

 

But for this formation to truly work we need two attacking full backs who provide the width. Cedric does this to a certain extent on the right, but Targett is not providing any threat. Once we get Bertrand back, we'll have pace and threat down the left - we'll look a little more balanced I hope.

 

As i've said above, I don't see anything catastrophically wrong - just a little rustiness, start of season blues. We're not a bad side.

[James]

We're watching different games then. I can't really remember us being overrun -no more than is the norm in every topsy-turvy prem game. I certainly can't remember Forster making any saves of note. I'm willing to wager we would be even more vulnerable if we went with the old formation and with Romeu Hojbjerg/Clasie as the two holding players which suggests the issue is one of personnel, not formation. The diamond arguably compensates for those weaknesses.

 

That's not to say there are not disadvantages - it makes teams narrow both defensively and offensively which requires athleticism to pull off (and we don't have too many athletes). But to say it sacrifices stability in the middle of the park betrays a basic lack of understanding.

 

Well then we will have to agree to disagree. I only say what I see and I saw a stretch of 10 to 15 minutes where we really struggled to win the ball back from Sunderland and noticed a similar spell in the Watford game. I don't think I've misunderstood the formation to be honest but even if, theoretically, it doesn't sacrifice stability it has meant that we look less secure at the back (again, in my opinion). At the very least it looks to me that our players misunderstand how to implement the formation effectively.

 

As for Forster not making any saves, I don't deny that, but I did say that we made a number of last ditch tackles (implying that he wouldn't need to be called upon).