Diamond formation explained

[Dr. Kucho]

All I seem to read on here is how the diamond formation doesnt seem to work with the players we have. Sadly I dont get to see many Saints games due to living abroad. So could someone explain the new formation and what the tactic seems to be? I understand how we line up and that we try to keep the ball and play it forward. However what is expected from the players when we attack (who does what to set up the goal) and what would be the best diamond formation line up if we had kept all the players since we got promoted?

[Saint_lambden]

All I seem to read on here is how the diamond formation doesnt seem to work with the players we have. Sadly I dont get to see many Saints games due to living abroad. So could someone explain the new formation and what the tactic seems to be? I understand how we line up and that we try to keep the ball and play it forward. However what is expected from the players when we attack (who does what to set up the goal) and what would be the best diamond formation line up if we had kept all the players since we got promoted?

 

I'll let someone else explain how it works but the bit in bold, IMO....

 

-------------------Forster---------------------

 

--Clyne-----VVD-----Alderweireld--Bertrand

 

-----------------Wanyama-----------------

-----Hojbjerg---------------Morgan------

 

------Mane-----------------Lallana------

----------------Lambert-----------------

 

That's a top 4 team

[The9]

I keep trying to resist the temptation to say Gaston would have been ideal for the #10 position, but tbh I don't think we've had anyone suited to that role since we've been back in the Premier League - no-one is a creative attacking passer with the ability to shoot or beat players - Tadic is definitely far better out wide, Mane was a poor passer, Lambert actually strikes me as the closest thing to a creator in the hole, but he wasn't going past anyone with the ball. Lallana probably couldn't even reach the goal with a shot from that position though he had the other qualities...

[Convict Colony]

This was my fav article I read on the diamond formation, very interesting and not too long and was where I got Fekir from Lyon from the other day.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2432605-breaking-down-footballs-in-vogue-formation-the-midfield-diamond

[Mowgli]

This was my fav article I read on the diamond formation, very interesting and not too long and was where I got Fekir from Lyon from the other day.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2432605-breaking-down-footballs-in-vogue-formation-the-midfield-diamond

 

That's a really good article and illustrates why Saints are taking a while to master it. The fluidity should reassure the sceptics and whilst it is useful tactic to deploy, we know that teams often have to enable a plan B if required. We do have the players to make this work though.

[Dr. Kucho]

This was my fav article I read on the diamond formation, very interesting and not too long and was where I got Fekir from Lyon from the other day.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2432605-breaking-down-footballs-in-vogue-formation-the-midfield-diamond

 

Thanks for the article. It states that in the French league they have started changing from 4-2-3-1 to the diamond formation and that other leagues could follow. Could it be that the club expect the PL to shift to the diamond formation and want to be the first to master it? Have to say I prefer the 4-2-3-1 formation as it allows to play more attacking players and protects the defence.

[syd_barrett_saint]

I like the idea of a diamond, but we really need a better number 10 to be able to implement it. Tadic doesn't yet seem entirely comfortable there, compared to his preferred position on the left. Or, if we do persist with Tadic, we at least need another player who can compete with him for that position. Ideally someone with a little more pace and power to his game, in addition to creativity. Mane would have been perfect!

[Mowgli]

I thought I read somewhere that Tadic pretty much had a free role at the top of the diamond. You see him all over the place.

[glengarryleads]

One thing i feel hasn’t been said much is that just because we are training heavily and featuring the 4-4-2 diamond, does not mean we will play it exclusively from here on out; it seems wise that when a team implements a new formation it goes through a period of immersion / intense training. God knows that’s what Football Manager thinks — but it does make sense. Anyhow, It does seem to me like Puel may want a roster that can switch between our formation of last season and a diamond shape, depending on game needs.

 

Then there’s the matter of weekly roster management needs, given our Europa league slate. If we have some personnel who don’t click in a 4-3-3, having a very distinct formation as an alternative seems like a good long-term plan, to rotate players and keep them fresh.

 

My two cents. Sorry to drag FM into it.

[kwsaint]

England won the world cup in 1966 playing the diamond system - can't be all bad

[Snopper]

One thing i feel hasn’t been said much is that just because we are training heavily and featuring the 4-4-2 diamond, does not mean we will play it exclusively from here on out; it seems wise that when a team implements a new formation it goes through a period of immersion / intense training. God knows that’s what Football Manager thinks — but it does make sense. Anyhow, It does seem to me like Puel may want a roster that can switch between our formation of last season and a diamond shape, depending on game needs.

 

Then there’s the matter of weekly roster management needs, given our Europa league slate. If we have some personnel who don’t click in a 4-3-3, having a very distinct formation as an alternative seems like a good long-term plan, to rotate players and keep them fresh.

 

My two cents. Sorry to drag FM into it.

 

Agreed. We need a little time and a little patience.

[Pengi]

Can we have wingers in the Diamond? I just don't care for the pass for pass sake - Liverpool had over 80% possession and still lost. Alex Ferguson once said of Arsenal - 'you can play a game of chess for hours and still lose'. Redmond looked better when he ventured out to the wing against Watford

[Leo_ARG]

I'm also bringing up Football Manager, sorry. Last year I used the 5-3-2 of Koeman but with one of the midfielders as no 10, as an advanced playmaker.

So I got Tadic playing there because I always saw him as a playmaker. And I got Fekir as the deep lying forward, with Long/JRod/Mane as the poacher. Fekir is an excellent fit for the diamond because he can pass, dribble past players and finish. So you make a good point.

 

I still don't get the idea of Tadic being purely a winger. Tadic game isn't really suited for the wings, he is perfect for the center of the pitch. He lacks the speed to play wide, and it's a complete waste of talent not playing him centrally were he can control the pace of the game and be the brain of the team, given his vision and intelligence. Also, he has the best killer ball of the squad. If you put him on the wings you don't take advantage of his strenghts.

What does worry me a bit is that he can't put a 90 minute effort without getting tired and losing effectiveness late in the match.

[SuperSAINT]

Can we have wingers in the Diamond? I just don't care for the pass for pass sake - Liverpool had over 80% possession and still lost. Alex Ferguson once said of Arsenal - 'you can play a game of chess for hours and still lose'. Redmond looked better when he ventured out to the wing against Watford

 

The nearest you get to wingers are the strikers, when they split out wide.

[Turkish]

I'm also bringing up Football Manager, sorry. Last year I used the 5-3-2 of Koeman but with one of the midfielders as no 10, as an advanced playmaker.

So I got Tadic playing there because I always saw him as a playmaker. And I got Fekir as the deep lying forward, with Long/JRod/Mane as the poacher. Fekir is an excellent fit for the diamond because he can pass, dribble past players and finish. So you make a good point.

 

I still don't get the idea of Tadic being purely a winger. Tadic game isn't really suited for the wings, he is perfect for the center of the pitch. He lacks the speed to play wide, and it's a complete waste of talent not playing him centrally were he can control the pace of the game and be the brain of the team, given his vision and intelligence. Also, he has the best killer ball of the squad. If you put him on the wings you don't take advantage of his strenghts.

What does worry me a bit is that he can't put a 90 minute effort without getting tired and losing effectiveness late in the match.

 

It's not real pal.

[SuperSAINT]

It's not real pal.

 

I'm jumping on the band-wagon too. When I was a kid, I always played as Argentina on International Superstar Soccer : Deluxe

They played 4-4-2 diamond. What did I learn from it? You need a sh*t hot No.10.

 

He wasn't real, but I loved Redonda. AWESOME player

[Lets B Avenue]

It's not real pal.

 

You say that, but when I was a kid, I used the very same system in Subbuteo and was pretty much unbeatable. It did help that if I was losing, I could open the door and let a very large Ginger Tom loose on the pitch.

 

Just a suggestion, Claude.

[Leo_ARG]

It's not real pal.

 

It's not real, it's simulation... pal.

[Convict Colony]

You say that, but when I was a kid, I used the very same system in Subbuteo and was pretty much unbeatable. It did help that if I was losing, I could open the door and let a very large Ginger Tom loose on the pitch.

 

Just a suggestion, Claude.

 

hahahahhahaha

[whelk]

You say that, but when I was a kid, I used the very same system in Subbuteo and was pretty much unbeatable. It did help that if I was losing, I could open the door and let a very large Ginger Tom loose on the pitch.

 

Just a suggestion, Claude.

 

Lol

[The9]

I'm also bringing up Football Manager, sorry. Last year I used the 5-3-2 of Koeman but with one of the midfielders as no 10, as an advanced playmaker.

So I got Tadic playing there because I always saw him as a playmaker. And I got Fekir as the deep lying forward, with Long/JRod/Mane as the poacher. Fekir is an excellent fit for the diamond because he can pass, dribble past players and finish. So you make a good point.

 

I still don't get the idea of Tadic being purely a winger. Tadic game isn't really suited for the wings, he is perfect for the center of the pitch. He lacks the speed to play wide, and it's a complete waste of talent not playing him centrally were he can control the pace of the game and be the brain of the team, given his vision and intelligence. Also, he has the best killer ball of the squad. If you put him on the wings you don't take advantage of his strenghts.

What does worry me a bit is that he can't put a 90 minute effort without getting tired and losing effectiveness late in the match.

 

Tadić has always been at his most effective for Saints in big games, out wide, crossing the ball. He rarely slides a pass which opens a defence but he can put in a killer cross for a player with Pellè's qualities. I don't see much benefit from trying to shoehorn him into the middle. Then again with the current bunch of shortarses anything in the air is a waste of time too.

[tajjuk]

That bleacher report article is a good read, helps the understanding a bit and I can see why Hojberg was signed, he's basically our Paul Pogba for Juve.

 

And I can also see why Redmond is being used as striker, because of the movement issue, might take a while for Austin to get used to that sort of system.

 

Plus we have good full backs in Bertrand and Cedric, with able deputies in Targett and Pied/Martina, probably won't find much better fullback strength outside the top 3/4 teams.

 

So it does kind of make sense, but then you look at players like Tadic, JWP, Austin, Jay Rod, Davis and you don't really see a role for them in that formation.

 

I kind of feel looking at that formation that we lack the other 'shuttler', though Clasie has potential for that as he has a lot of energy and work rate, plus is decent enough on the ball.

 

You also worry about Romeu being the anchor, is he good enough to play that lone role and what are our options if he's injured/suspended?

 

From that I can kind of see why we are still getting linked with central midfielders, because really we lack another 'shuttler' and lack at the very least cover in the anchor role.

 

If the rumours are true and we are getting two attackers in being potentially Bouffal and Stanciu, you can see Bouffal potentially being up front in that formation rivaling Redmond and Stanciu in the No 10, with Tadic.

 

So

 

-----------------------Forster/McKarthy--------------------------

 

Cedric/Pied---Fonte/Yoshida---VVD/Gardos---Bertrand/Targett

 

----------------------------Romeu/?-------------------------------

 

----------------Clasie/JWP-------Hojberg/Davis------------------

 

--------------------------Stanciu/Tadic----------------------------

 

-------------Boufal/Redmond---Long/Austin---------------------

 

 

(BTW Imagine that midfield with Wanyama anchoring, then Hojberg and Morgan in front going box to box)

 

 

So like I said the 'anchor' and 'shuttler' roles as that article calls them worry me, and that is presuming we get the needed no.10 and striker quality.

[FriendlySaint]

I'll let someone else explain how it works but the bit in bold, IMO....

 

-------------------Forster---------------------

 

--Clyne-----VVD-----Alderweireld--Bertrand

 

-----------------Wanyama-----------------

-----Hojbjerg---------------Morgan------

 

------Mane-----------------Lallana------

----------------Lambert-----------------

 

That's a top 4 team

 

That's not a diamond.. That's 4-3-3...

 

If you wanted to play a diamond with those players then Mane would be upfront next to Lambert with Lallana behind them on the top of the diamond...

[Wade Garrett]

I'm also bringing up Football Manager, sorry. Last year I used the 5-3-2 of Koeman but with one of the midfielders as no 10, as an advanced playmaker.

So I got Tadic playing there because I always saw him as a playmaker. And I got Fekir as the deep lying forward, with Long/JRod/Mane as the poacher. Fekir is an excellent fit for the diamond because he can pass, dribble past players and finish. So you make a good point.

 

I still don't get the idea of Tadic being purely a winger. Tadic game isn't really suited for the wings, he is perfect for the center of the pitch. He lacks the speed to play wide, and it's a complete waste of talent not playing him centrally were he can control the pace of the game and be the brain of the team, given his vision and intelligence. Also, he has the best killer ball of the squad. If you put him on the wings you don't take advantage of his strenghts.

What does worry me a bit is that he can't put a 90 minute effort without getting tired and losing effectiveness late in the match.

 

F*cking rotate.

 

Really?

[Lets B Avenue]

Tadić has always been at his most effective for Saints in big games, out wide, crossing the ball. He rarely slides a pass which opens a defence but he can put in a killer cross for a player with Pellè's qualities. I don't see much benefit from trying to shoehorn him into the middle. Then again with the current bunch of shortarses anything in the air is a waste of time too.

 

I only have to think back to the Man City home game in May.

[Saint_clark]

Tadić has always been at his most effective for Saints in big games, out wide, crossing the ball. He rarely slides a pass which opens a defence but he can put in a killer cross for a player with Pellè's qualities. I don't see much benefit from trying to shoehorn him into the middle. Then again with the current bunch of shortarses anything in the air is a waste of time too.

 

He put Long through on goal V United from a central position.

[david in sweden]

well that's the Diamond discussion sorted. Tell me how good are you at explaining the offside rule to a woman?

[West End Saint]

That bleacher report article is a good read, helps the understanding a bit and I can see why Hojberg was signed, he's basically our Paul Pogba for Juve.

 

And I can also see why Redmond is being used as striker, because of the movement issue, might take a while for Austin to get used to that sort of system.

 

Plus we have good full backs in Bertrand and Cedric, with able deputies in Targett and Pied/Martina, probably won't find much better fullback strength outside the top 3/4 teams.

 

So it does kind of make sense, but then you look at players like Tadic, JWP, Austin, Jay Rod, Davis and you don't really see a role for them in that formation.

 

I kind of feel looking at that formation that we lack the other 'shuttler', though Clasie has potential for that as he has a lot of energy and work rate, plus is decent enough on the ball.

 

You also worry about Romeu being the anchor, is he good enough to play that lone role and what are our options if he's injured/suspended?

 

From that I can kind of see why we are still getting linked with central midfielders, because really we lack another 'shuttler' and lack at the very least cover in the anchor role.

 

If the rumours are true and we are getting two attackers in being potentially Bouffal and Stanciu, you can see Bouffal potentially being up front in that formation rivaling Redmond and Stanciu in the No 10, with Tadic.

 

So

 

-----------------------Forster/McKarthy--------------------------

 

Cedric/Pied---Fonte/Yoshida---VVD/Gardos---Bertrand/Targett

 

----------------------------Romeu/?-------------------------------

 

----------------Clasie/JWP-------Hojberg/Davis------------------

 

--------------------------Stanciu/Tadic----------------------------

 

-------------Boufal/Redmond---Long/Austin---------------------

 

 

(BTW Imagine that midfield with Wanyama anchoring, then Hojberg and Morgan in front going box to box)

 

 

So like I said the 'anchor' and 'shuttler' roles as that article calls them worry me, and that is presuming we get the needed no.10 and striker quality.

 

Decent post but what is worrying me is will we score enough goals playing this way & as you point out massive job for Romeu with no cover

what is baffling me is why we have changed to this system when the variations on the previous system have worked so well

[hypochondriac]

Can we have it explained to the players please? Just woeful.

[Shance]

We haven't got the midfield for this formation. I think it will look much better when Bertrand returns as the fullbacks really need to be wing backs and Targett gets exposed too much. We looked fine down Cedric's side but were taken apart down the other. We also need a DM who can dominate like Wanyama or one that can recover the ball quickly like Morgan. Austin will be fine. He made some excellent runs today but our midfield were to busy ****ing about with the ball to play it when he wanted it, so he was caught offside all the time. I still think we need to change to a 4231. This would look great imo;

 

Austin

Tadic Boufal Redmond

Hojbjerg Romeu

Bertrand VVD Fonte Cedric

Forster

 

That team playing last seasons formation would be very very good imo.

 

Can someone mail this to Puel please? Thanks.

 

Edit: Also, the reason our forwards have zero room to move is because Targett wasn't getting forward enough so he wasn't pulling the defence wide. Cedric looks a real talent in this formation, but not Targett imo.

Edited 27 August, 2016 by Shance

[striker]

After careful consideration, I think the Diamond formation sucks.

[badgerx16]

Do we have yet another manager without a plan B ?

[FriendlySaint]

We haven't got the midfield for this formation. I think it will look much better when Bertrand returns as the fullbacks really need to be wing backs and Targett gets exposed too much. We looked fine down Cedric's side but were taken apart down the other. We also need a DM who can dominate like Wanyama or one that can recover the ball quickly like Morgan. Austin will be fine. He made some excellent runs today but our midfield were to busy ****ing about with the ball to play it when he wanted it, so he was caught offside all the time. I still think we need to change to a 4231. This would look great imo;

 

Austin

Tadic Boufal Redmond

Hojbjerg Romeu

Bertrand VVD Fonte Cedric

Forster

 

That team playing last seasons formation would be very very good imo.

 

Can someone mail this to Puel please? Thanks.

 

Edit: Also, the reason our forwards have zero room to move is because Targett wasn't getting forward enough so he wasn't pulling the defence wide. Cedric looks a real talent in this formation, but not Targett imo.

 

442 diamond is garbage. 4231 would be a success with the players we have. We will go down playing 442 diamond. Having the strikers chasing back to defend against the opposition full backs is pathetic. We have to revert to 4231 immediately

[Wade Garrett]

I'll explain the diamond.

 

A piece of **** to play against.

[saintant]

Diamond system explained in three simple, easy to understand words, 'IT DOESN'T WORK'

[Crab Lungs]

Diamond system explained in three simple, easy to understand words, 'IT DOESN'T WORK'

 

But but but.... the heatmap says it does.

[saintant]

Heat-maps do not score goals or win you points or affect your league position. If you're going to change your system at least change it to something that work. Madness by those making the decisions.

[OttawaSaint]

The players are a bit thick. It's quite simple. The forward defensers need to rotate the ball top wise to the shuttle. Then it's just a matter of the switch play to the pivot. Easy as pie.

[Whitey Grandad]

The players are a bit thick. It's quite simple. The forward defensers need to rotate the ball top wise to the shuttle. Then it's just a matter of the switch play to the pivot. Easy as pie.

 

That might work in soccerball but this is the Premier League doncha know.