Saints Won, Watford 1.....Post match meltdown

[GarrettIvo]

I don't think he is, more like it appears to be either one of your characteristic strawman arguments or lack of understanding.

 

Not sure about that. I tend to agree with Batman on this one. Not sure how else you can read Professor's comment.

 

As for the incident, Long is some 30 metres from goal, and running to the corner. It's a reasonable red card and a definite free kick, but that's it.

[doddisalegend]

Just a typical Saints first game of the season. It's traditional near us for someone to say "It's going to be a long hard season" long before the end, and they did.

 

I saw a fact yesterday that Sturrock was the last saints manger to win the opening game of the season... which is pretty bad TBF

[doddisalegend]

what happens when teams (bit like yesterday) close off the space behind?

 

They did but there were opportunities to get in behind if we played the ball quicker. To many times yesterday players chose a poor safe ball giving Watford time to regain their shape when an early ball would have unlocked them.

[doddisalegend]

Shearer obviously didn't have to watch him for a full 90 minutes.

 

First half was poor ,although he was much improved in the second half, and give him credit for tracking back a few times.

 

You could level that criticism at most of the team yesterday.

[Batman]

They did but there were opportunities to get in behind if we played the ball quicker. To many times yesterday players chose a poor safe ball giving Watford time to regain their shape when an early ball would have unlocked them.

 

to do that we need to get their back line spread out more. with a more narrow set up, we allowed them to defend a fair bit on the width of their 18 yard line.

we shall see how it pans out

 

can only see united taking us apart next week. Do not think we have the players to make this formation a success for us

[shurlock]

what happens when teams (bit like yesterday) close off the space behind?

 

That's why you need to midfielders like Hojbjerg who can drive forward with the ball and exploit the space in front when sides drop off. Ideally we'd have another powerful box-to-box midfielder. Our midfielders are much of a sameness. It also puts more onus on the fullbacks to get involved.

[hutch]

I saw a fact yesterday that Sturrock was the last saints manger to win the opening game of the season... which is pretty bad TBF

 

Adkins (v. Leeds)?

[Batman]

didnt we beat WBA away a couple of years ago on day 1?

[Saint_Ash]

That's why you need to midfielders like Hojbjerg who can drive forward with the ball and exploit the space in front when sides drop off. Ideally we'd have another powerful box-to-box midfielder. Our midfielders are much of a sameness. It also puts more onus on the fullbacks to get involved.

Maybe that's what we're looking at transfer wise and not a striker as Puel has stated a few times now we're not after a striker.

[shurlock]

didnt we beat WBA away a couple of years ago on day 1?

 

yep 3 years ago - last min lambo pen. JWP and Chambers started that day. We were then pretty dog**** at home to sunderland.

Edited 14 August, 2016 by shurlock

[SaintBobby]

yep 3 years ago - last min lambo pen. JWP and Chambers started that day. We were then pretty dog**** at home to sunderland.

 

but that wasn't the then manager's first match, was it?

[doddisalegend]

didnt we beat WBA away a couple of years ago on day 1?

 

yep 3 years ago - last min lambo pen. JWP and Chambers started that day. We were then pretty dog**** at home to sunderland.

 

fair enough it was a stat on the BBC match thread

 

OptaJoe

 

2004 -The last Southampton manager to win their opening PL game in charge was Paul Sturrock back in March 2004 (2-0 vs Liverpool). Saint.

 

1:39 p.m. - 13 August 2016

[nta786]

Since promotion first home game:

 

Saints 0-2 Wigan (who got relegated that year)

Saints 1-1 Sunderland (where Giaccherini who is 5ft 3 i think scored a header against us)

Saints 0-0 WBA (awful game, worse than yesterday for me)

Saints 0-3 Everton

Saints 1-1 Watford

 

 

Point being, we are always shi*e first home game.

[Batman]

Since promotion first home game:

 

Saints 0-2 Wigan (who got relegated that year)

Saints 1-1 Sunderland (where Giaccherini who is 5ft 3 i think scored a header against us)

Saints 0-0 WBA (awful game, worse than yesterday for me)

Saints 0-3 Everton

Saints 1-1 Watford

 

 

Point being, we are always shi*e first home game.

 

you do realise we beat WBA?

you forgot the loss to Liverpool away

[nta786]

you do realise we beat WBA?

you forgot the loss to Liverpool away

 

Read my post again, said first home game

[Batman]

Read my post again, said first home game

 

fair enough.

[Dangermouth]

Not sure about that. I tend to agree with Batman on this one. Not sure how else you can read Professor's comment.

 

As for the incident, Long is some 30 metres from goal, and running to the corner. It's a reasonable red card and a definite free kick, but that's it.

 

I've gone back and looked at it. I would concur with Garrett.

[Nordic Saint]

We won't face easier opposition than that all season. Watford are understandably one of the relegation favourites and erratic keeping from Gomes gifted us a goal. But, when they waltzed through the centre of the defnece for the opening goal, I thought this looks very much like when van Dijk and Yoshida played together in our 6-1 home defeat to Liverpool in the League Cup. We were very fortunate that Watford lacked the self-belief of a top team like Liverpool to press home their advantage but sat back like the relegation strugglers they are and decided to hang on.

 

Our defence and the whole team badly missed the leadership of Fonte. If he had started, I doubt Watford would have scored. We also missed conventional central striker. Why Puel left it so late to bring Austin on only he knows. But, it suggests he doesn't know the players very well yet. When we face better teams who have players who will run at us more than Watford did, the lack of an imposing defensive midfielder like Wanyama to stop them overrrunning us is going to be even more obvious than it was yesterday.

 

The positives were that Hojbjerg made a very promising debut and looks like a classy player and Redmond although, especially in the fuirst half not really looking like a striker, also showed a lot of promise in the 2nd half and took his chance well. Pied is an unspectacular but steady replacement for Martina.

 

But, with Fonte, Wanyama, Mane and Pelle, we would have won that game at least 2-0.

 

That was a game against very easy opposition, who came here with no real belief that they could win an away game against a team which finished 6th last season. The Man United game will tell us a lot more.

[S-Clarke]

We won't face easier opposition than that all season. Watford are understandably one of the relegation favourites and erratic keeping from Gomes gifted us a goal. But, when they waltzed through the centre of the defnece for the opening goal, I thought this looks very much like when van Dijk and Yoshida played together in our 6-1 home defeat to Liverpool in the League Cup. We were very fortunate that Watford lacked the self-belief of a top team like Liverpool to press home their advantage but sat back like the relegation strugglers they are and decided to hang on.

 

Our defence and the whole team badly missed the leadership of Fonte. If he had started, I doubt Watford would have scored. We also missed conventional central striker. Why Puel left it so late to bring Austin on only he knows. But, it suggests he doesn't know the players very well yet. When we face better teams who have players who will run at us more than Watford did, the lack of an imposing defensive midfielder like Wanyama to stop them overrrunning us is going to be even more obvious than it was yesterday.

 

The positives were that Hojbjerg made a very promising debut and looks like a classy player and Redmond although, especially in the fuirst half not really looking like a striker, also showed a lot of promise in the 2nd half and took his chance well. Pied is an unspectacular but steady replacement for Martina.

 

But, with Fonte, Wanyama, Mane and Pelle, we would have won that game at least 2-0.

 

That was a game against very easy opposition, who came here with no real belief that they could win an away game against a team which finished 6th last season. The Man United game will tell us a lot more.

 

There isn't very easy opposition in this league, they are all well coached and organised.

 

and sorry to **** on your tripe brigade, but Yoshida didn't play in the 6-1 game. Before you sweep out crap, it's best to check you're right with the facts.

[Nordic Saint]

There isn't very easy opposition in this league, they are all well coached and organised.

 

and sorry to **** on your tripe brigade, but Yoshida didn't play in the 6-1 game. Before you sweep out crap, it's best to check you're right with the facts.

 

You're right it was van Dijk and Caulker in the Liverpool game. But, the key thing is in both games we missed Fonte. We cannot afford to sell him at any price.

[doddisalegend]

There isn't very easy opposition in this league, they are all well coached and organised.

 

and sorry to **** on your tripe brigade, but Yoshida didn't play in the 6-1 game. Before you sweep out crap, it's best to check you're right with the facts.

 

To many fans with delusions of grandeur these days. I mean the champions lost to Hull yesterday at team with a squad of 13 1st teamers and no permanent manager there is no such thing as an easy game in the PL which is why it's popular.

[Shandy_Top_89]

One of the worst halves i've seen Saints play since the Liebherr revival, quickly followed by a cracking second.

 

Pros;

Hojbjerg

Hojbjerg

Hojbjerg

Redmond looked fantastic in the second half and the goal was well taken, looked out-muscled in the first half but started to get into some really good positions and it paid off.

Pied was unexpectedly great when he came on (although 10 men probably helped).

We seemed to benefit from extra emphasis on fitness training, outlasting Watford imo, which caused the game to turn.

Tadic, VVD and Targett all looked strong.

Interplay on the disallowed goal was sublime, if we do more of that but stay onside I can see a few wonderful team goals this season.

 

Cons

What the hell was that first 45

Romeu struggled as the sole holding midfielder

Cedric..... wow

Yoshida traditional suicidal backpass (which was a shame as other than that I felt he had a solid game)

Felt Long had a weak match, but his pace did create the red card situation.

Standard of play through the entire second half was extremely strong.

 

PS Shout out to the delightful gent behind me chanting 'sacked in the morning' at Puel in roughly the 70th minute. Quality support.

[striker]

We won't face easier opposition than that all season. Watford are understandably one of the relegation favourites and erratic keeping from Gomes gifted us a goal. But, when they waltzed through the centre of the defnece for the opening goal, I thought this looks very much like when van Dijk and Yoshida played together in our 6-1 home defeat to Liverpool in the League Cup. We were very fortunate that Watford lacked the self-belief of a top team like Liverpool to press home their advantage but sat back like the relegation strugglers they are and decided to hang on.

 

Our defence and the whole team badly missed the leadership of Fonte. If he had started, I doubt Watford would have scored. We also missed conventional central striker. Why Puel left it so late to bring Austin on only he knows. But, it suggests he doesn't know the players very well yet. When we face better teams who have players who will run at us more than Watford did, the lack of an imposing defensive midfielder like Wanyama to stop them overrrunning us is going to be even more obvious than it was yesterday.

 

The positives were that Hojbjerg made a very promising debut and looks like a classy player and Redmond although, especially in the fuirst half not really looking like a striker, also showed a lot of promise in the 2nd half and took his chance well. Pied is an unspectacular but steady replacement for Martina.

 

But, with Fonte, Wanyama, Mane and Pelle, we would have won that game at least 2-0.

 

That was a game against very easy opposition, who came here with no real belief that they could win an away game against a team which finished 6th last season. The Man United game will tell us a lot more.

 

Agree the competition was easy and we were at home. If Puel keeps trying to "force fit" our squad into his beloved diamond then it may be a long season. Why he doesn't look at the squad and then tweak things to accommodate for its strengths and weaknesses I will never know. Until then however he will keep adding midfielders, who needs forwards anyway. By the way, if Pelle were still here I believe he would be sitting on the bench with Austin. Puel doesn't seem to rate the "in the box" striker who can actually score tough goals in traffic.

[doddisalegend]

One of the worst halves i've seen Saints play since the Liebherr revival, quickly followed by a cracking second.

 

Pros;

Hojbjerg

Hojbjerg

Hojbjerg

Redmond looked fantastic in the second half and the goal was well taken, looked out-muscled in the first half but started to get into some really good positions and it paid off.

Pied was unexpectedly great when he came on (although 10 men probably helped).

We seemed to benefit from extra emphasis on fitness training, outlasting Watford imo, which caused the game to turn.

Tadic, VVD and Targett all looked strong.

Interplay on the disallowed goal was sublime, if we do more of that but stay onside I can see a few wonderful team goals this season.

 

Cons

What the hell was that first 45

Romeu struggled as the sole holding midfielder

Cedric..... wow

Yoshida traditional suicidal backpass (which was a shame as other than that I felt he had a solid game)

Felt Long had a weak match, but his pace did create the red card situation.

Standard of play through the entire second half was extremely strong.

 

PS Shout out to the delightful gent behind me chanting 'sacked in the morning' at Puel in roughly the 70th minute. Quality support.

 

Generally I agree with your points but the red bit really?. I can think of several games last season alone were we were just as bad if not worse (second half Leicester at home, second half Bournemouth at home, whole game Bournemouth away, Midget-land (both legs), Liverpool in the cup, Spurs at home, Everton at home and Man U at home all come readily to mind)

[ART]

Suggest those with doubts of what Puel is trying to achieve with the diamond formation try go ogling the history of the diamond. It can be far more flexible that people are suggesting.

Interesting to see the teams and managers listed who have made the most of using the diamond. Ancelotti made Milan almost invincible with his variations of the diamond.

Can Puel succeed at Saints? I believe he can if he brings in the right players but only time will tell

[derry]

It's the same people over and over again.

 

There's nothing wrong with being critical and there is plenty to be critical about. But they're just fishing for a reaction.

 

I really couldn't give a ****e about reactions, as far as I'm concerned it's what I thought.

[verlaine1979]

Suggest those with doubts of what Puel is trying to achieve with the diamond formation try go ogling the history of the diamond. It can be far more flexible that people are suggesting.

Interesting to see the teams and managers listed who have made the most of using the diamond. Ancelotti made Milan almost invincible with his variations of the diamond.

Can Puel succeed at Saints? I believe he can if he brings in the right players but only time will tell

 

I did as you suggested and looked up Ancelotti's Milan - so all we need to do is bring in players of the calibre of Cafu, Pirlo, Kaka & Shevchenko and the formation will work fine?

[Professor]

Not sure about that. I tend to agree with Batman on this one. Not sure how else you can read Professor's comment.

 

As for the incident, Long is some 30 metres from goal, and running to the corner. It's a reasonable red card and a definite free kick, but that's it.

 

Just to clarify what I've said. For too long, cheating in football has got steadily worse. This isn't new as those old enough will remember Rodney Marsh and his reputation for diving. Watson cheated yesterday, just as many other players would in the same situation. "Taking one for the team" its often called which is a deceitful way of describing simple cheating. I'm not suggesting Watson should be treated differently from the way the rules are currently applied. It would be ridiculous to pick on one player but it is an example of a sickness that has been allowed to grow in the game.

Other sports have fought back against cheating with much stronger sanctions which vary from one sport to another. Lifetime or lengthy bans are an option if other steps fail to work but there are simple things that could be done for cheating of the kind we saw yesterday. Changing the penalty rules would be one way. At the moment the penalty kick is too big a reward for some offences, for example when the foul is in the area but there is no obvious scoring opportunity. There's little doubt that has encouraged players to go down in the area because an undefended kick from 12 yards with only the keeper to beat is often a better bet than the in-play situation. If penalties were restricted to where the referee judged there was goal scoring opportunity that might encourage less cheating. But that could be taken further and a penalty kick could apply for fouls outside the penalty area (which could even be abolished) for a foul that denies a goal scoring opportunity as per Shane Long yesterday.

Of course all this is purely academic as there is virtually no chance of FIFA making such significant changes but unless something is done, cheating will continue.

[The9]

didnt we beat WBA away a couple of years ago on day 1?

 

August 2013, we also won away at Coventry circa '99 that I remember (and possibly others) - we haven't won at home in the first game in the top division since 1988 though.

[The9]

Just to clarify what I've said. For too long, cheating in football has got steadily worse. This isn't new as those old enough will remember Rodney Marsh and his reputation for diving. Watson cheated yesterday, just as many other players would in the same situation. "Taking one for the team" its often called which is a deceitful way of describing simple cheating.

 

He didn't cheat, he deliberately committed a foul and was punished for that foul. How's he cheating? He's not even cheating if he does it and gets away with it.

[The9]

But, with Fonte, Wanyama, Mane and Pelle, we would have won that game at least 2-0.

 

We lost to Everton 3-0 at home last season with Fonte, Wanyama, Mane and Pelle in the team. So I think your theory falls apart there.

[scotty]

He didn't cheat, he deliberately committed a foul and was punished for that foul. How's he cheating? He's not even cheating if he does it and gets away with it.

 

Eh? If a player deliberately commits a foul, does that not count as cheating?

[nta786]

Eh? If a player deliberately commits a foul, does that not count as cheating?

 

 

Cheating is acting dishonestly to gain an advantage... They rightly got a red card and justice prevailed.

 

Firstly, had one of our players done the same thing, no one would have argued against the decision, it is football.

For example, if I was in Watson's situation I too would have done the same if I was getting outpaced like that, it is taking one for the team.

 

Secondly, it was our fault we could not capitalise on the extra man advantage we had.

[eelpie]

I saw a fact yesterday that Sturrock was the last saints manger to win the opening game of the season... which is pretty bad TBF

 

If so, that's not a bad omen.

[Whitey Grandad]

Cheating is acting dishonestly to gain an advantage... They rightly got a red card and justice prevailed.

 

Firstly, had one of our players done the same thing, no one would have argued against the decision, it is football.

For example, if I was in Watson's situation I too would have done the same if I was getting outpaced like that, it is taking one for the team.

 

Secondly, it was our fault we could not capitalise on the extra man advantage we had.

I think the question is whether the punishment fits the crime.

[eelpie]

Generally I agree with your points but the red bit really?. I can think of several games last season alone were we were just as bad if not worse (second half Leicester at home, second half Bournemouth at home, whole game Bournemouth away, Midget-land (both legs), Liverpool in the cup, Spurs at home, Everton at home and Man U at home all come readily to mind)

 

That's not good if we can't capitalise on playing against 10 men, because sids law will have oppositions benefitting against 10 men Saints

[doddisalegend]

That's not good if we can't capitalise on playing against 10 men, because sids law will have oppositions benefitting against 10 men Saints

 

TBF the sending off came quite late it wasn't like Watford player 60+ minutes with 10 men. We were well on top by then anyway.

[Vancouver Saint]

Amazed at the general level of negativity...we were clearly the better team - but for a close offside call would have taken all three points and I guess we'd have had a very different complexion on the board. High level of consistency in the positives to be taken out of the game, of which there were many - PEH top of the list.

 

Also amazed there hasn't been more speculation about Fonte not playing...he's our captain, should be first pick, don't buy the injured story classic reason for not playing someone whose 'head is not in the right place' because it's been turned.

[trousers]

Amazed at the general level of negativity

 

I take it you don't come here often then...? Things are pretty much going to the standard Saintsweb Forum summer script thus far...

 

Keep an eye out for the plethora of "glad I was proven wrong" or "told you so" posts around November time. (Act 4 Scene 2)

 

Edited 15 August, 2016 by trousers

[CB Fry]

I take it you don't come here often then...? Things are pretty much going to the standard Saintsweb Forum summer script thus far...

It's like that film.

[trousers]

It's like that film.

That film I've only ever seen once...?

[Pamplemousse]

The referee is Anthony Taylor, the same one in the Chelsea v West Ham match atm

[doddisalegend]

It's like that film.

 

[SuperSAINT]

Apologies if it was already posted:

 

[Appy]

Apologies if it was already posted:

 

 

West Brom in 17th with a win, effective.

[simo]

I think if we can play more halfs like the second and less like the first this season we won't go too far wrong!

[Saint-Fred]

We lost to Everton 3-0 at home last season with Fonte, Wanyama, Mane and Pelle in the team. So I think your theory falls apart there.

 

Yeah but last year we didn't have VVD in that game..as again he was a late signing...perhaps our poor starts have more to do with signing good players late in the window so they miss the first games? Year before Mane and Toby, I assume didn't play the West Brom game?

[Saint-Fred]

Apologies if it was already posted:

 

 

where are the other two teams?

 

We also had one of the highest possession nearly 60 % and one of the best pass accuracy something like 85% (just behind Bmth! Lol)

Edited 17 August, 2016 by Saint-Fred

[Saint_clark]

where are the other two teams?

 

We also had one of the highest possession nearly 60 % and one of the best pass accuracy something like 85% (just behind Bmth! Lol)

 

That stat was produced before the Chelsea V West Ham game.

[FriendlySaint]

I have a few comments to make about this match. I thought the team played well , but made some schoolboy errors. I also have a few comments to make about Romeu.

 

Quite clearly our players are far better individuals and much more talented on the ball than Watford's. But in terms of tactical nous we were beyond poor. Against 10 men we kept shooting from 30 yards and kept trying to get the ball into the box too early when we only had one body in there (or two max). This really highlights how the team needs to be taught how to play against one less man. I remember us playing West Ham with 9+ an injured Carroll and not managing to score due to lack of patience. We have to be more patience and raise the temperature and probe more against one less.

 

As for 11 vs 11 I thought Romeu in particularly was dreadful. I went with a group of people and the only real complaint was that Romeu was shockingly bad. He was completely off the pace. A couple of times dived in high up the park and was left for dead. Fell asleep on the goal. I find it perplexing that the likes of Clasie and Reed don't play over him. They are far better players and no one is going to convince me otherwise. The fact Puel didn't take him off at all worries me. He should have been hauled off at half time as he was by far and away the worst player on the park.

 

As for the formation.. To say I'm not convinced is an understatement. We don't have enough bodies in the box in front of goal. For example Ward-Prowse got hauled off, but came up with a moment of magic first half down the right and cut the ball back into a real danger area....99 times out of 100 that should be a goal. That was a brilliant bit of play by him.