S-Clarke Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 And that is what so many of the Football Manager fantasists just don't get FF. We are really, really fortunate to have such a good owner and we should be thankful we are living within our means to give us the greatest chance of financial stability and evolving success. We are never going to be able to compete financially with Man C, Man U, Liverpool, Chelsea, etc. but as we showed last year (and the year before) it is not all about how deep your pockets are. All this drivel about us needing to spend more to show 'ambition' and whining about how unfair it is we don't spend more. Will temper that with saying it is a few 'fans' on message boards and so hopefully not a reflection of the majority of fans. You're spot on. It's scary just how close we were to being run by SISU and we could have easily ended up with some mental owner as per the likes of Leeds/Hull/Blackpool etc. We're lucky and people should step back and think before spouting off obscene stuff about our current owner (and I've seen some incredibly personal stuff hurled at Kat, for no reason at all - not all on here). I think most of us get it and are appreciative of it, but there are the select few who are incredibly ungrateful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 That's not quite true. In the last set of accounts just under 2 million has been paid back to her. It's been a while, but I thought the report said that payment to KL was "accrued". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 More drivel. I question the club plenty on here, and have done this season. Your accusation cannot just "apply to me" because it only makes sense if you can demonstrate exactly when the club have "dumped" in anyone's "mouth". I can see the point you are trying to make - I'll defend the club whatever - but the dumping in the mouth thing suggests that I am defending a corrupt, useless regime of total failure. The only thing that is very, very clear from your comments on this thread is just how much you despise the success of the last couple of years. You can see on every sour-faced petulent post you have made on the management on this club, who, far from "dumping" in anyone's "mouth" has delivered almost unprecedented success over the last few years. The fact you have to make out we are all living through some supporters hell where we're being dumped in the mouth which only I am blindly defending is beyond pathetic. CB, I appreciate your more measured reply.Im a very loyal person and so understand your position and I was in the same boat when Lowe was here as well as NC. I have just become tired of the way I believe that the club sell the assets and fail to reinvest in proven quality. I have watched lesser teams win many trophies over the last 20 or so years and wonder why it isnt us. I want to share the stories of great days out on cup winning days with fellow fans and family etc, IMO that is unlikely to happen if we constantly sell the diamonds and buy players with possible potential. Yes the club has its hands tied by the modern day agents but it seems to me that we are an easy touch and cynically we have the players made always to look the bad guys and the club shrugging its shoulders and saying what can we do. There must be middle ground on this. Anyway I will move on and hold my beliefs whether they are right or wrong until somebody can show me why. I suggest there is a large section of the fanbase who are disgruntled and in time that may come to the surface if results and performances do not match with expectations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 It's been a while, but I thought the report said that payment to KL was "accrued". Its confusing isnt it:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heisenberg Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 Kat does all this for the love of the club and to continue her dad's legacy and dream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Ash Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 Kat does all this for the love of the club and to continue her dad's legacy and dream Glad you're finally getting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washsaint Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 CB, I appreciate your more measured reply.Im a very loyal person and so understand your position and I was in the same boat when Lowe was here as well as NC. I have just become tired of the way I believe that the club sell the assets and fail to reinvest in proven quality. I have watched lesser teams win many trophies over the last 20 or so years and wonder why it isnt us. I want to share the stories of great days out on cup winning days with fellow fans and family etc, IMO that is unlikely to happen if we constantly sell the diamonds and buy players with possible potential. Yes the club has its hands tied by the modern day agents but it seems to me that we are an easy touch and cynically we have the players made always to look the bad guys and the club shrugging its shoulders and saying what can we do. There must be middle ground on this. Anyway I will move on and hold my beliefs whether they are right or wrong until somebody can show me why. I suggest there is a large section of the fanbase who are disgruntled and in time that may come to the surface if results and performances do not match with expectations FFS, what kind of alternate universe do you inhabit? So Everton kept Stones and other clubs keep hold of players wanted by the truly big clubs? Don't think so. Which lesser teams have won trophies over the last 20 years then (and you should really be looking at the last 10 years since the money really went obscene)? Very few - maybe 5 or 6 in total I would think. So we fail to reinvest in proven quality (whatever the hell that is, suppose you think Ramirez and Osvaldo were proven quality and Stoke supposedly have yet finish beneath us every season) yet somehow have managed to improve our league position consistently and have now qualified for Europe twice in a row. There really is no satisfying some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 CB, I appreciate your more measured reply.Im a very loyal person and so understand your position and I was in the same boat when Lowe was here as well as NC. I have just become tired of the way I believe that the club sell the assets and fail to reinvest in proven quality. I have watched lesser teams win many trophies over the last 20 or so years and wonder why it isnt us. I want to share the stories of great days out on cup winning days with fellow fans and family etc, IMO that is unlikely to happen if we constantly sell the diamonds and buy players with possible potential. Yes the club has its hands tied by the modern day agents but it seems to me that we are an easy touch and cynically we have the players made always to look the bad guys and the club shrugging its shoulders and saying what can we do. There must be middle ground on this. Anyway I will move on and hold my beliefs whether they are right or wrong until somebody can show me why. I suggest there is a large section of the fanbase who are disgruntled and in time that may come to the surface if results and performances do not match with expectations We sold Lallana, Lambert etc. Brought in Mane, Tadic - I'd say they've proven to be as effective, if not more effective for us. We've sold Mane and I'm pretty certain we'll still get another attacking player. We've signed Hoijberg, who people already believe will leave us in a year or two for bigger and better things - so that once again proves that we have replaced well. If we had a squad full of Marc Wilson's, Greg Cameron's, Whelans, Delaney's etc then we'd probably be able to keep our squad together. But we have been picked by the top clubs because we had/have top players that the Stoke's, Palace's etc don't have. Even Everton haven't been able to keep hold of Stones once a big club came calling, and rumour has it that Lukaku is getting a bit restless as he wants to head back to Chelsea. I still think this is the best chance of success for us, no matter what some say. We earmark players who have the potential to be starts at a top top club, we develop them and get success with them and then they move on and we go again. Frustrating it may be, but I'd rather we had players that other clubs wanted rather than being full of journeyman dross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 (edited) We sold Lallana, Lambert etc. Brought in Mane, Tadic - I'd say they've proven to be as effective, if not more effective for us. We've sold Mane and I'm pretty certain we'll still get another attacking player. We've signed Hoijberg, who people already believe will leave us in a year or two for bigger and better things - so that once again proves that we have replaced well. If we had a squad full of Marc Wilson's, Greg Cameron's, Whelans, Delaney's etc then we'd probably be able to keep our squad together. But we have been picked by the top clubs because we had/have top players that the Stoke's, Palace's etc don't have. Even Everton haven't been able to keep hold of Stones once a big club came calling, and rumour has it that Lukaku is getting a bit restless as he wants to head back to Chelsea. I still think this is the best chance of success for us, no matter what some say. We earmark players who have the potential to be starts at a top top club, we develop them and get success with them and then they move on and we go again. Frustrating it may be, but I'd rather we had players that other clubs wanted rather than being full of journeyman dross. Is Pied an exception to that? Thats my problem and concern at the moment - I see parallels from when we went down in 2005 we recruited for the squad and not for the first team - maybe an over reaction and on top of 2 abysmal friendlies and a first half on Saturday. Is Pied anything other than competent based on his record and couple of games so far - not writing him off just is he a top 8 right back? Fans have the right to be worried at the moment - yes we should have faith in the club - however it wont take much to undo what has been achieved. Again I support the academy ideal but they have to be good enough - ours are not for the premiership. I think we are just 2 good signings away from being there...but I have been saying that for years now! Sorry for the rubbish above its just I don't like what I am seeing at the moment - the players don't look happy - the players dont seem to fit this formation - we are not using our players like Long and Austin to their best ability. An injury to VVD and we are buggered - was concerned he looked so ****ed off Saturday he decided to play midfield for a bit :-) A couple of additions always raises the expectations and hopes again but need to be done soon Edited 15 August, 2016 by Give it to Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 Good to see another summer of meltdown and bed-wetting is fully under way. Wouldn't be a proper summer without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washsaint Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 Is Pied an exception to that? Thats my problem and concern at the moment - I see parallels from when we went down in 2005 we recruited for the squad and not for the first team - maybe an over reaction and on top of 2 abysmal friendlies and a first half on Saturday. Is Pied anything other than competent based on his record and couple of games so far - not writing him off just is he a top 8 right back? Fans have the right to be worried at the moment - yes we should have faith in the club - however it wont take much to undo what has been achieved. Again I support the academy ideal but they have to be good enough - ours are not for the premiership. I think we are just 2 good signings away from being there...but I have been saying that for years now! Sorry for the rubbish above its just I don't like what I am seeing at the moment - the players don't look happy - the players dont seem to fit this formation - we are not using our players like Long and Austin to their best ability. An injury to VVD and we are buggered - was concerned he looked so ****ed off Saturday he decided to play midfield for a bit :-) A couple of additions always raises the expectations and hopes again but need to be done soon But Ron, I am sure Pied has not been brought in as first choice RB but as competition for Cedric. Same way Koeman brought in Martina as competition. I agree we are 2 attacking players light and possibly a CB (even if Fonte does not leave) but am keeping the fingers crossed that we will bring in these players before the end of the window. It seems most clubs are struggling to bring in reinforcements due to the stupid money sloshing around and everyone wanting a piece of it and the associated premiums. The club deserves are trust and goodwill - lord knows they have earnt it in recent years. I also think we might be surprised by at least 2 Academy players making a breakthrough this year. Now we have a manager that is interested in them this should act as a major boost to these younger players knowing they will be given every chance to make the breakthrough. Hesketh, the striker and possibly Valery all look very good amongst others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 But Ron, I am sure Pied has not been brought in as first choice RB but as competition for Cedric. Same way Koeman brought in Martina as competition. I agree we are 2 attacking players light and possibly a CB (even if Fonte does not leave) but am keeping the fingers crossed that we will bring in these players before the end of the window. It seems most clubs are struggling to bring in reinforcements due to the stupid money sloshing around and everyone wanting a piece of it and the associated premiums. The club deserves are trust and goodwill - lord knows they have earnt it in recent years. I also think we might be surprised by at least 2 Academy players making a breakthrough this year. Now we have a manager that is interested in them this should act as a major boost to these younger players knowing they will be given every chance to make the breakthrough. Hesketh, the striker and possibly Valery all look very good amongst others. Thanks for thoughtful post shame the idiot above#60 can't see that some have opinions other than rose coloured specs. I hope you are right - having watched this batch of u18s up close I think we have a couple of good prospects. Good point about Pied and he is Puel go to man I guess and everyone has one just he reminds me so much of Telfer :-) not a bad thing though just that right back position has been an issue since Clyne went. Someone made the point about Valery being coached and bought along by fellow Frenchman...maybe Just we need to get in a Mane replacement and good central defender and I maybe able to relax a bit more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washsaint Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 Agree Ron.....I would be amazed if anyone (fans, Puel, club, etc) are truly happy with what we currently have. Sure the club is working around the clock to get things over the line but we don't seem to really publicize what we are doing which makes it frustrating for us fans and it easy assume nothing is happening. Plenty of concerns based on the 1st half Saturday but, conversely, plenty of positives to take from the 2nd half. Remember we got destroyed by Everton at home first game last season and the sky was falling in after that!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 Agree Ron.....I would be amazed if anyone (fans, Puel, club, etc) are truly happy with what we currently have. Sure the club is working around the clock to get things over the line but we don't seem to really publicize what we are doing which makes it frustrating for us fans and it easy assume nothing is happening. Plenty of concerns based on the 1st half Saturday but, conversely, plenty of positives to take from the 2nd half. Remember we got destroyed by Everton at home first game last season and the sky was falling in after that!!! I have been raving about Hojbjerg (well since I learnt to spell his name right) all pre-season was so disappointed for him not to start so all is not bad at the moment. Think he is going to be a real favourite this season - Redmond just needs the publicity taken away and let him progress in the shadow - he can do it I like him a lot he has pace and works hard. Get in that other midfield/forward and he will come good. As I said we have been 2 players away so often going back to Keegan when we finished second when another player may have seen us win it! I think if we get Bertrand back as well we will see us better going forward - Target did well but lacks pace taking on last defender. 2 more signings and we will be better :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Wayman Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 CB, I appreciate your more measured reply.Im a very loyal person and so understand your position and I was in the same boat when Lowe was here as well as NC. I have just become tired of the way I believe that the club sell the assets and fail to reinvest in proven quality. I have watched lesser teams win many trophies over the last 20 or so years and wonder why it isnt us. I want to share the stories of great days out on cup winning days with fellow fans and family etc, IMO that is unlikely to happen if we constantly sell the diamonds and buy players with possible potential. Yes the club has its hands tied by the modern day agents but it seems to me that we are an easy touch and cynically we have the players made always to look the bad guys and the club shrugging its shoulders and saying what can we do. There must be middle ground on this. Anyway I will move on and hold my beliefs whether they are right or wrong until somebody can show me why. I suggest there is a large section of the fanbase who are disgruntled and in time that may come to the surface if results and performances do not match with expectations Agree totally Nick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 FFS, what kind of alternate universe do you inhabit? So Everton kept Stones and other clubs keep hold of players wanted by the truly big clubs? Don't think so. Which lesser teams have won trophies over the last 20 years then (and you should really be looking at the last 10 years since the money really went obscene)? Very few - maybe 5 or 6 in total I would think. So we fail to reinvest in proven quality (whatever the hell that is, suppose you think Ramirez and Osvaldo were proven quality and Stoke supposedly have yet finish beneath us every season) yet somehow have managed to improve our league position consistently and have now qualified for Europe twice in a row. There really is no satisfying some people. I'm in the real world as I'm a winner. I don't accept being 6/7/8th being some kind of glory. No doubt you have the commemorative scarf saying we finished 6th, but that is just also ran. Why do we have to go back 10 years? The money has been insane for a long time.Wigan, Boro , Pompey, Swansea, Leicester (not only the PL), I suggest others as well. I know you will say that some are in the lower leagues,(we have been as well and there is no guarantee we might not be in the future) but they have their names on the cups, they have had the visits to Wembley and adrenaline rush of actually winning something. It is easy to roll out Osvaldo and Ramirez as examples, but probably shows we didn't do good due diligence. I'm not asking for 30+ million signings BTW. Whilst fans accept 6/7/8th being some kind of miracle, we will continue to have the same debates. I'm very happy you are satisfied with that low expectation but please excuse others who want proper success. I'm not asking for the PL but perhaps a cup or 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 Agree totally Nick.Be careful Charlie, agreeing with me will get the thought Police on you:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 I'm in the real world as I'm a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobes8 Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 Agree Ron.....I would be amazed if anyone (fans, Puel, club, etc) are truly happy with what we currently have. Sure the club is working around the clock to get things over the line but we don't seem to really publicize what we are doing which makes it frustrating for us fans and it easy assume nothing is happening. Plenty of concerns based on the 1st half Saturday but, conversely, plenty of positives to take from the 2nd half. Remember we got destroyed by Everton at home first game last season and the sky was falling in after that!!! Lots of positives on the 2nd half?? I didn't see many mainly because Watford surrendered position and sat back.we had lots of possession but did very little with it. It's been a pretty underwhelming summer when most saints fans were looking for the club to push on we've stalled. Let's hope some good work is going on behind the scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 CB, I appreciate your more measured reply.Im a very loyal person and so understand your position and I was in the same boat when Lowe was here as well as NC. I have just become tired of the way I believe that the club sell the assets and fail to reinvest in proven quality. I have watched lesser teams win many trophies over the last 20 or so years and wonder why it isnt us. I want to share the stories of great days out on cup winning days with fellow fans and family etc, IMO that is unlikely to happen if we constantly sell the diamonds and buy players with possible potential. Yes the club has its hands tied by the modern day agents but it seems to me that we are an easy touch and cynically we have the players made always to look the bad guys and the club shrugging its shoulders and saying what can we do. There must be middle ground on this. Anyway I will move on and hold my beliefs whether they are right or wrong until somebody can show me why. I suggest there is a large section of the fanbase who are disgruntled and in time that may come to the surface if results and performances do not match with expectations This is a sensible and well thought out post. It pretty much sums up exactly what I feel at the moment. For the first time in a long time my enthusiasm and belief in what Saints are doing and where they are trying to go is wavering. I don't mind the upheaval, I've never really been one to idolise players (I did when I was younger but recently I've become immune to changes in personnel). I think this summer has just been a summer too many for me where we have carved up a very successful formula yet again and now we wait and see whether the replacements can replicate let alone surpass what went before. It's just so frustrating that for these last three seasons its felt like we've been on the cusp of something incredibly special only for it to be dismantled in a matter of months. It may be that we continue to improve (although fifth would be some going with the current squad) but one can't help but wonder what might have happened if we'd have held on to a couple of the top players for a season or two more and made a few sensible additions. I, perhaps naively, thought that once we achieved our goal of qualifying for Europe through the league we might be a bit more robust/aggressive in the transfer market but it doesn't look as though that will be the case. Its no wonder that the fans are restless, every year for these last three summers we wait with baited breath to see whether our replacements are failures or duds. I acknowledge that we have consistently improved but surely common sense dictates that, in any line of business, change is, to a certain extent, a gamble. We make this gamble every year and so far its paid off but there really is no guarantee it will continue to do so. Last year we at least brought in players to replace those who left and added numbers to the squad (as we needed to given our European commitments). This year we've, at best, replaced the numbers we've lost even though we have a greater number of guaranteed games. It all just feels a little risky and complacent, I get the sense that we've started to believe our own hype and that everything we touch in the transfer market will turn to gold. All these gratuitous articles about how Puel is going to convert Redmond into the next Henry are, IMO, evidence of this. I can't imagine that any other aspiring top six club would be pinning their goalscoring hopes on a winger they've signed from a relegated side that they hope to turn into a centre forward. Again, just my opinion. I hope I'm wrong but the lack of incomings, the performances in the early friendlies and the first half of the Watford game and the rhetoric coming out of the club is causing me concern. I hope that the club prove me wrong as they have in the past but I worry this is the season the changes catch up with us. I just wonder what the club's management actually see as the goal in the long term. I know they say Champions League but, even if by some miracle we made it (and I don't think that we can realistically), surely it isn't possible to sustain a club of our size in the top 4 of the Premier League whilst selling your best players every season? I'd be interested to know what KL and LR would actually consider long term success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 I'm in the real world as I'm a winner. I don't accept being 6/7/8th being some kind of glory. No doubt you have the commemorative scarf saying we finished 6th, but that is just also ran. Why do we have to go back 10 years? The money has been insane for a long time.Wigan, Boro , Pompey, Swansea, Leicester (not only the PL), I suggest others as well. I know you will say that some are in the lower leagues,(we have been as well and there is no guarantee we might not be in the future) but they have their names on the cups, they have had the visits to Wembley and adrenaline rush of actually winning something. It is easy to roll out Osvaldo and Ramirez as examples, but probably shows we didn't do good due diligence. I'm not asking for 30+ million signings BTW. Whilst fans accept 6/7/8th being some kind of miracle, we will continue to have the same debates. I'm very happy you are satisfied with that low expectation but please excuse others who want proper success. I'm not asking for the PL but perhaps a cup or 2 Cup success is far more random than the league. And don't you think that every other club is trying for the same glory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 15 August, 2016 Share Posted 15 August, 2016 I'm in the real world as I'm a winner. I don't accept being 6/7/8th being some kind of glory. No doubt you have the commemorative scarf saying we finished 6th, but that is just also ran. Why do we have to go back 10 years? The money has been insane for a long time.Wigan, Boro , Pompey, Swansea, Leicester (not only the PL), I suggest others as well. I know you will say that some are in the lower leagues,(we have been as well and there is no guarantee we might not be in the future) but they have their names on the cups, they have had the visits to Wembley and adrenaline rush of actually winning something. It is easy to roll out Osvaldo and Ramirez as examples, but probably shows we didn't do good due diligence. I'm not asking for 30+ million signings BTW. Whilst fans accept 6/7/8th being some kind of miracle, we will continue to have the same debates. I'm very happy you are satisfied with that low expectation but please excuse others who want proper success. I'm not asking for the PL but perhaps a cup or 2 None of this makes any sense. If all you want us us to do is win a cup like Wigan why are you moaning about investment in the squad? Wigan's team was a bag of sh it. Leicester (more than ten years ago), Pompey, Middlesborough (also more than ten years ago) and Swansea all won their cups alongside middling finishes in the table around eighth/ninth. Wigan won the cup and went down. We're pretty established in that area in the table and perfectly capable of stumbling across the luck of the draw and good fortune across the handful of matches required to win the FA Cup without really doing anything particularly different to now. Unless you are seriously suggesting that Swansea City and Wigan had some overarching vision and determination during the summer before they won the cup, that they went out and ambitiously signed players specifically with the determined ambition of winning a cup? Is that what you actually believe happened? There's nothing to suggest we aren't trying to win the cups, this season (a failure, in your eyes) actually saw us qualify for another cup and gain a bye in the League Cup, so everything is perfectly placed for us to achieve what Wigan Athletic did. It's odd you are combining chest-beating posturing about not being a loser with arse-aching jealousy that we're not as good as Swansea beating Bradford City at Wembley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 16 August, 2016 Share Posted 16 August, 2016 :)Be careful Charlie, agreeing with me will get the thought Police on you:) Yet another phony claim. What were you thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 16 August, 2016 Share Posted 16 August, 2016 None of this makes any sense. If all you want us us to do is win a cup like Wigan why are you moaning about investment in the squad? Wigan's team was a bag of sh it. Leicester (more than ten years ago), Pompey, Middlesborough (also more than ten years ago) and Swansea all won their cups alongside middling finishes in the table around eighth/ninth. Wigan won the cup and went down. We're pretty established in that area in the table and perfectly capable of stumbling across the luck of the draw and good fortune across the handful of matches required to win the FA Cup without really doing anything particularly different to now. Unless you are seriously suggesting that Swansea City and Wigan had some overarching vision and determination during the summer before they won the cup, that they went out and ambitiously signed players specifically with the determined ambition of winning a cup? Is that what you actually believe happened? There's nothing to suggest we aren't trying to win the cups, this season (a failure, in your eyes) actually saw us qualify for another cup and gain a bye in the League Cup, so everything is perfectly placed for us to achieve what Wigan Athletic did. It's odd you are combining chest-beating posturing about not being a loser with arse-aching jealousy that we're not as good as Swansea beating Bradford City at Wembley. All valid but as you will know the teams with the strongest squads invariably win things. We strip our strength year on year and so the team doesn't bed in to develop into a trophy winning team. I notice you mention that Wigan finished mid table, well that is where we were expect to finish. Why does it matter that Leicester won the League cups ten years ago, they did it and we didn't. Pat present all the fans who say we have improved season on season have the moral high ground and it is very valid, but I believe there is a large swathe of fans who are disgruntled but quiet, it won't take much for that to change, forget not fans sung Lowes name at stages when it looked we were on the up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 16 August, 2016 Share Posted 16 August, 2016 All valid but as you will know the teams with the strongest squads invariably win things. We strip our strength year on year and so the team doesn't bed in to develop into a trophy winning team. I notice you mention that Wigan finished mid table, well that is where we were expect to finish. Why does it matter that Leicester won the League cups ten years ago, they did it and we didn't. Pat present all the fans who say we have improved season on season have the moral high ground and it is very valid, but I believe there is a large swathe of fans who are disgruntled but quiet, it won't take much for that to change, forget not fans sung Lowes name at stages when it looked we were on the up. Cups are nice to win, but surely the big one is the league. I know that LCFC won it last season, so shows that anyone can do it, but I think most are in agreement that that is the exception rather than the rule and that it is the traditional big boys, who as you say, have the strongest squads that win it. Top 6 this season - Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Man C, Man U. Liverpool. Top 6 next season the same. It is a prediction that hopefully won't come to be, but I don't think anyone would say that it is an unreasonable one, even if it does omit LCFC. WHU might fancy their chances, as might Everton. As we might. So we are in a competition that we have little chance of winning or even breaking into the top 3rd. I realise football is different, but in most walks of life, if you found yourself in that position, would you really put so much passion into the thing? So yes I guess we have taken the moral high ground in the fact that we have tried to do things differently. But that is more out of necessity than choice. We have to as we cannot spend hundreds of millions to bridge the gap to the top 3rd. Fans expectations always tend to be a tad unrealistic (understandably so), and I can imagine that a large swathe are disgruntled but quiet. If you take the clubs that I say will finish top 6, their income, the wages they pay, their squad and add your assertion (which I agree with) that the team with the strongest squad tends to win, then that should temper the expectations of our fan base into something more realistic and pragmatic about the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 16 August, 2016 Share Posted 16 August, 2016 Cups are nice to win, but surely the big one is the league. I know that LCFC won it last season, so shows that anyone can do it, but I think most are in agreement that that is the exception rather than the rule and that it is the traditional big boys, who as you say, have the strongest squads that win it. Top 6 this season - Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, Man C, Man U. Liverpool. Top 6 next season the same. It is a prediction that hopefully won't come to be, but I don't think anyone would say that it is an unreasonable one, even if it does omit LCFC. WHU might fancy their chances, as might Everton. As we might. So we are in a competition that we have little chance of winning or even breaking into the top 3rd. I realise football is different, but in most walks of life, if you found yourself in that position, would you really put so much passion into the thing? So yes I guess we have taken the moral high ground in the fact that we have tried to do things differently. But that is more out of necessity than choice. We have to as we cannot spend hundreds of millions to bridge the gap to the top 3rd. Fans expectations always tend to be a tad unrealistic (understandably so), and I can imagine that a large swathe are disgruntled but quiet. If you take the clubs that I say will finish top 6, their income, the wages they pay, their squad and add your assertion (which I agree with) that the team with the strongest squad tends to win, then that should temper the expectations of our fan base into something more realistic and pragmatic about the whole thing. that is a very good post and combined with Block34 in the Fonte thread does make sobering reading. I dont think that the League is ever a realistic possiblilty now as the window of of opportunity was the last 2 seasons.Having a good go at the cups surely is the way for a club like us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 16 August, 2016 Share Posted 16 August, 2016 Lots of positives on the 2nd half?? I didn't see many mainly because Watford surrendered position and sat back.we had lots of possession but did very little with it. It's been a pretty underwhelming summer when most saints fans were looking for the club to push on we've stalled. Let's hope some good work is going on behind the scenes. People have very short memories we played like absolute crap in many games last season a very good final third of the season covered up some very poor football and performances at times. The second half against Watford was much better than a lot of performances we put in early last season. Watford didn't surrender possession we took it. Our finishing late us down with 25 attempts on goal we should have scored a second to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 August, 2016 Share Posted 16 August, 2016 All valid but as you will know the teams with the strongest squads invariably win things. We strip our strength year on year and so the team doesn't bed in to develop into a trophy winning team. I notice you mention that Wigan finished mid table, well that is where we were expect to finish. Why does it matter that Leicester won the League cups ten years ago, they did it and we didn't. Pat present all the fans who say we have improved season on season have the moral high ground and it is very valid, but I believe there is a large swathe of fans who are disgruntled but quiet, it won't take much for that to change, forget not fans sung Lowes name at stages when it looked we were on the up. But the objective measure of who has the strongest squad is performance in the league, which you have dismissed as "PR" and "spin" and people saying that our league performance has been good are "losers". Meanwhile, you assess Swansea and Wigan and Boro as being winners, despite none of them having a stronger squad than us and finishing mid table or worse. The ten year thing was brought up by you, and I was pointing out some of your examples were from more than ten years ago. Added to that you're now complaining that we might finish mid table this season which is fine for Swansea (winners) but not fine for us (losers). I doubt there is anything like the disgruntlement you speak off, as season tickets sales hit new heights. Seems like more people than you think are "losers" sucked in by PR and spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 16 August, 2016 Share Posted 16 August, 2016 But the objective measure of who has the strongest squad is performance in the league, which you have dismissed as "PR" and "spin" and people saying that our league performance has been good are "losers". Meanwhile, you assess Swansea and Wigan and Boro as being winners, despite none of them having a stronger squad than us and finishing mid table or worse. The ten year thing was brought up by you, and I was pointing out some of your examples were from more than ten years ago. Added to that you're now complaining that we might finish mid table this season which is fine for Swansea (winners) but not fine for us (losers). I doubt there is anything like the disgruntlement you speak off, as season tickets sales hit new heights. Seems like more people than you think are "losers" sucked in by PR and spin. you can play with my words if you like CB, I don't celebrate finishing 6th like yourself , I might be the only person in the world who thinks that aiming for 6th/7th/or8th is not quite enough, that actually winning a trophy is not odd. Do you think at this moment in time had the ST sales started now we would sell out, or do you think that the belief that we may push on might have had something to do with it? No if you read my original post again I said 20years but one of your band of merry men cut it down to 10 years. Please could you also point my post where I mentioned PR and Spin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washsaint Posted 16 August, 2016 Share Posted 16 August, 2016 Oh for those halcyon days of the 80s and 90s eh? Surprised you were happy with a 2nd place finish as, being a winner, I would have thought that wouldn't have been enough for you. And how many cup triumphs or League winners/Euro competitions did we have in those glory days? If you cannot be happy finishing in the top 8 for 3 years in a row then that is sad. And heh, if you don;t like the way the club is being run you could always support Man City or some other ambitious club. But being a 'winner' I'm sure you've got enough money to buy the club. Yeah, the disgruntlement is so high that our first home game of the season sold out for the first time in years........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 August, 2016 Share Posted 16 August, 2016 you can play with my words if you like CB, I don't celebrate finishing 6th like yourself , I might be the only person in the world who thinks that aiming for 6th/7th/or8th is not quite enough, that actually winning a trophy is not odd. Do you think at this moment in time had the ST sales started now we would sell out, or do you think that the belief that we may push on might have had something to do with it? No if you read my original post again I said 20years but one of your band of merry men cut it down to 10 years. Please could you also point my post where I mentioned PR and Spin? I'm not playing with your words. You don't think finishing sixth is an achievement but Wigan winning a cup while finishing 18th is an achievement or Swansea winning a cup while finishing eighth is an achievement. So I continue to not understand why you are complaining about lack of investment in the squad when the thing you want us to achieve - winning the FA Cup or League cup like Swansea/Boro/Leicester - has barely anything to do with squad investment because we're already at the level of Swansea/Boro/Leicester's cup winning teams. The club are not going out of their way to not win a trophy like you seem to think they are. Basically your train of thought/line of argument on this topic is all over the shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 17 August, 2016 Share Posted 17 August, 2016 I'm not playing with your words. You don't think finishing sixth is an achievement but Wigan winning a cup while finishing 18th is an achievement or Swansea winning a cup while finishing eighth is an achievement. So I continue to not understand why you are complaining about lack of investment in the squad when the thing you want us to achieve - winning the FA Cup or League cup like Swansea/Boro/Leicester - has barely anything to do with squad investment because we're already at the level of Swansea/Boro/Leicester's cup winning teams. The club are not going out of their way to not win a trophy like you seem to think they are. Basically your train of thought/line of argument on this topic is all over the shop. And so you couldn't find references to PR and Spin, lol, and then say you haven't twisted my words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr X Posted 17 August, 2016 Share Posted 17 August, 2016 If Kat really loves the club why don't we start investing in it & make Some steps to show we are not just a feeder club for the top clubs, none of the signings so far are very exciting, Redmond is not a player anywhere near the level of mane, piere looks decent, where is all the money going? A good deal of it is not being reinvested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Depressed of Shirley Posted 17 August, 2016 Share Posted 17 August, 2016 If Kat really loves the club why don't we start investing in it & make Some steps to show we are not just a feeder club for the top clubs, none of the signings so far are very exciting, Redmond is not a player anywhere near the level of mane, piere looks decent, where is all the money going? A good deal of it is not being reinvested But we are re-investing, in new extended contracts. With those we have lost this summer, Wanyama had no intention of staying, and Mane was sold for about £15m more than he is worth. I would also guess that we tried to get Mane to sign a new deal before we sold him, and Koeman's departure came about after he wouldn't sign the contract we offered him. So we try and keep the players we have, but if they won't sign we take the money on offer. I would have loved to have seen both Wanyama and Mane still here this season, but Wanyama in particular seemed to switch it on or off depending on whether the opposition might try and sign him. We could have refused to sell Mane this summer, but I am not sure that he would have tried particularly hard for us this season if we had kept him. I also share some of the concern over the new signings, or lack of them, but do think that waiting until the end of the window might well remove those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 17 August, 2016 Share Posted 17 August, 2016 And so you couldn't find references to PR and Spin, lol, and then say you haven't twisted my words This thread: ahh another of the clubs men. I was never part of the Go Wilde fools thanks very much.I don't get taken in by the hype and the PR these people dream up. So you said PR and Hype that "these people dream up" not spin. Awfully sorry for twisting your words because hype and spin are so very, very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint-Fred Posted 17 August, 2016 Share Posted 17 August, 2016 But we are re-investing, in new extended contracts. With those we have lost this summer, Wanyama had no intention of staying, and Mane was sold for about £15m more than he is worth. I would also guess that we tried to get Mane to sign a new deal before we sold him, and Koeman's departure came about after he wouldn't sign the contract we offered him. So we try and keep the players we have, but if they won't sign we take the money on offer. I would have loved to have seen both Wanyama and Mane still here this season, but Wanyama in particular seemed to switch it on or off depending on whether the opposition might try and sign him. We could have refused to sell Mane this summer, but I am not sure that he would have tried particularly hard for us this season if we had kept him. I also share some of the concern over the new signings, or lack of them, but do think that waiting until the end of the window might well remove those. If we couldn't keep Mane because he wouldn't try if we didn't sell..doesn't that apply to Fonte? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 17 August, 2016 Share Posted 17 August, 2016 Awfully sorry for twisting your words because hype and spin are so very, very different. your apology is accepted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 17 August, 2016 Share Posted 17 August, 2016 She's an admirable women and nice person. Would like to see the club spending more and showing more ambition.i think 66 million in and £25 million spent with sky money too isn't good enough. Too many personal leaving in last 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 17 August, 2016 Share Posted 17 August, 2016 You can say what you like. We finished 6th last season ! 6th !!!! Think about it . We finished above West Ham, Liverpool and even Chelsea. We will be talking about last season for many decades to come. We will be remembered for last season along with Leicester City for quite a few years and footnoted in many a 'Shoot !' annual. I would say that we will judge all future seasons by last years golden season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Block34 Posted 17 August, 2016 Share Posted 17 August, 2016 You can say what you like. We finished 6th last season ! 6th !!!! Think about it . We finished above West Ham, Liverpool and even Chelsea. We will be talking about last season for many decades to come. We will be remembered for last season along with Leicester City for quite a few years and footnoted in many a 'Shoot !' annual. I would say that we will judge all future seasons by last years golden season. My god, I'm doing it again, agreeing with Dalek. think I'd better log off and go lie down..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 18 August, 2016 Share Posted 18 August, 2016 your apology is accepted Good. As a further apology, there's more than one example of you saying that fans have been "brainwashed" by the club. Which obviously is nothing like PR and Spin. Terribly sorry for twisting your words. as in all things there is no silver bullet but as far as I can see the club is set up to provide others for success. Our fans will be paying high season ticket prices and buy merchandise to pay a lot of the overheads and then the club develops players to sell on at massive profits, which disappear into the ether. I agree we don't want ot be a bankrupt club and also high transfer fees don't guarantee success, but do you not envy clubs even smaller than us who have won trophies in the last 10 years or so? It seems to me our fans are happy to live with bragging that we finished 6th /7th or 14th. I feel we are being cynically used and have been brainwashed that there is some kind of moral high ground to find and develop players who then go onto play at bigger clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 18 August, 2016 Share Posted 18 August, 2016 And people who think finishing sixth is good have been brainwashed: Ive been supporting Saints for nearly 50 years and almost as brainwashed as a lot of other Saints fans in accepting that we should be thankful for 6th place. We could afford to have a good go as we now have the extra PL riches, as well as a surplus in transfer dealings, but lets be thankful that we are punching above our weight (something I don't believe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redslo Posted 18 August, 2016 Share Posted 18 August, 2016 Good. As a further apology, there's more than one example of you saying that fans have been "brainwashed" by the club. Which obviously is nothing like PR and Spin. Terribly sorry for twisting your words. Just to be clear, I do not think you owe me an apology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 18 August, 2016 Share Posted 18 August, 2016 And people who think finishing sixth is good have been brainwashed: thankyou for those 2 quotes you posted as they are spot on. Who finished 6th 7th or 8th 3 years ago , 5 years ago 10 years ago? When I was a kid I knew every League and Cup winning team for each year from 1969. I had the forlorn hope our name would be amongst it in the future, luckily I saw it once. IMO fans accepting 6th as some kind of miracle is doing us a disservice. Do you not see that trumpeting 6th sends th message to the club that we will accept little? Yes winning the the league is a dream too far, but it is better to ask for that than to accept 6th is the glass ceiling. As we all know now the glass ceiling was Champions and the club missed that opportunity by sending the come and get me message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 18 August, 2016 Share Posted 18 August, 2016 My god, I'm doing it again, agreeing with Dalek. think I'd better log off and go lie down.....Block 34 you did a great post the other day btw, I think one of us is misunderstanding Daleks slant in his post. To me he is being ironic, and I found it amusing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 18 August, 2016 Share Posted 18 August, 2016 thankyou for those 2 quotes you posted as they are spot on. Who finished 6th 7th or 8th 3 years ago , 5 years ago 10 years ago? When I was a kid I knew every League and Cup winning team for each year from 1969. I had the forlorn hope our name would be amongst it in the future, luckily I saw it once. IMO fans accepting 6th as some kind of miracle is doing us a disservice. Do you not see that trumpeting 6th sends th message to the club that we will accept little? Yes winning the the league is a dream too far, but it is better to ask for that than to accept 6th is the glass ceiling. As we all know now the glass ceiling was Champions and the club missed that opportunity by sending the come and get me message. You're right. Well never achieve the searing ambition, level of investment and all round drive and determination that Wigan Athletic showed when they delivered their dream season of winning a cup. That was our dream. That was your dream. And horrible old Les Reed is absolutely determined to stop that happening. Why can't we be like Wigan oh why can't we be like Wigan. Thanks for admitting I haven't been twisting words, too. Means a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 18 August, 2016 Share Posted 18 August, 2016 Who cares about Wigan, you only have to look at Birmingham City to see how to win trophies if you get the right owner with real ambition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 18 August, 2016 Share Posted 18 August, 2016 You're right. Well never achieve the searing ambition, level of investment and all round drive and determination that Wigan Athletic showed when they delivered their dream season of winning a cup. That was our dream. That was your dream. And horrible old Les Reed is absolutely determined to stop that happening. Why can't we be like Wigan oh why can't we be like Wigan. Thanks for admitting I haven't been twisting words, too. Means a lot.Yes you carry on picking and choosing to back up your lack of ambition.If you wish to focus on clubs much smaller than us, I will choose clubs bigger than us and to point at Chelsea and Man City who also were in the lower leagues, I doubt their fans relaxed or showed their undying love as they were finishing 6th or worse. There is no magic bullet but lets have a bit more ambition than 6th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 18 August, 2016 Share Posted 18 August, 2016 Yes you carry on picking and choosing to back up your lack of ambition.If you wish to focus on clubs much smaller than us, I will choose clubs bigger than us and to point at Chelsea and Man City who also were in the lower leagues, I doubt their fans relaxed or showed their undying love as they were finishing 6th or worse. There is no magic bullet but lets have a bit more ambition than 6th. Man City fans did show plenty of undying love when they were in League 1 so I really don't understand what point you are making, yet again. You're suggesting we should protest or march through the streets because we only finished sixth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 18 August, 2016 Share Posted 18 August, 2016 Yes you carry on picking and choosing to back up your lack of ambition.If you wish to focus on clubs much smaller than us, I will choose clubs bigger than us and to point at Chelsea and Man City who also were in the lower leagues, I doubt their fans relaxed or showed their undying love as they were finishing 6th or worse. There is no magic bullet but lets have a bit more ambition than 6th. Think back to the 1990's and then you might realise that for some of us finishing 6th is fantastic and beyond dreams. Just being in the top league is good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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