This article pinpoints my concerns

[striker]

This short article really hits on my concerns for our offensive side. First Puel values possession over all. I fear this will be like the National team, passing around controlling possession for 65% of the time, but never getting a goal. We need attacking/finishing ability too. Second he seems set on his system and expects the players to adapt. I would have hoped he'd looked at the players we have, and adapt his system to get the best result. I wonder what happens if we start slowly? Will he adapt the system or not?

 

https://www.clubcall.com/southampton/puel-makes-possession-priority-1816698.html

[Saint Garrett]

All fart no sh!t philosophy?

 

We shall see, I've got no problem with us dominating as long as we're winning games too and not being hit on the counter and conceding everytime ala Adkins Prem era.

[buctootim]

All fart no sh!t philosophy?

 

I've got no problem with us dominating as long as we're winning games too and not being hit on the counter and conceding everytime ala Adkins Prem era.

 

That was more Pochettino era irrc. Two thirds possession in midfield, but no-one willing to get it forward and take a shot - and end up losing.

[Channon's Sideburns]

Or...as I pointed out to a friend after Wednesday... 'Tippy Tappy Bulls**t'...

 

No point having lots of possession if we go sideways instead of forwards near the oppo 18yd box. That's frustrated me under Poch, under Koeman, and again on Wednesday.

 

JUST BLOODY SHOOT. HAVE A GO. WE MAY JUST SCORE AND WIN GAMES.

[Fabrice29]

Koeman would always talk about keeping ball "position"and controlling the game. Sounds like Puel will just keep that consistency. Difference being that Koeman proved its effectiveness in games and Puel hasn't had that chance yet...but hey ho...write him off anyway. Much easier than actually thinking about it a little bit logically isn't it?

[beatlesaint]

I must say it concerns me too. I like the look of Redmond, i think Tadic will be even better with a new manager as he and Ron clearly didnt get on all the time, and I like Long but none of them are going to score us 15-20 goals, certainly not two of them.

 

Not sure the system will suit Austin's poaching instincts and Jay Rod ? Well who knows what he will be like.

 

I sincerely hope the playing it cool on getting another striker is just a case of the club playing their cards close to their chest.

 

The scoring bit is my only concern, i like what he is doing with the midfield and the defence is sound.

[Fabrice29]

Or...as I pointed out to a friend after Wednesday... 'Tippy Tappy Bulls**t'...

 

No point having lots of possession if we go sideways instead of forwards near the oppo 18yd box. That's frustrated me under Poch, under Koeman, and again on Wednesday.

 

JUST BLOODY SHOOT. HAVE A GO. WE MAY JUST SCORE AND WIN GAMES.

 

We won quite a few games to be fair.

[warsash saint]

Just wish we'd get rid of all this 'Tippy Tappy Bulls**t' & 'controlling possession' tactics ...... the club might have made progressed over the last 4 years if they had dumped it

[Chris27687]

Just imagine if we played like Barcelona or Bayern Munich - that would be awful.

[buctootim]

Just imagine if we played like Barcelona or Bayern Munich - that would be awful.

 

I know you think thats a clever putdown, but it betrays your lack of knowledge. Barcelona and Bayern spend one third of their time in the opposition's third and average 16-18 shots on goal per match. At time under Pochettino we spent nearly all our time in the middle and we'd be lucky to get five or six shots.

 

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/37/Statistics/Germany-Bayern-Munich

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/65/Statistics/Spain-Barcelona

[Chris27687]

I know you think thats a clever putdown, but it betrays your lack of knowledge. Barcelona and Bayern spend one third of their time in the opposition's third and average 16-18 shots on goal per match. At time under Pochettino we spent nearly all our time in the middle and we'd be lucky to get five or six shots.

 

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/37/Statistics/Germany-Bayern-Munich

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/65/Statistics/Spain-Barcelona

 

Congratulations, you worked out its hard to play like Barca & Bayern - If however you don't try, you'll never go anywhere.

 

High Tempo to retain possession and controlling a game via possession is pretty much the perfect tactic to win the vast majority of games - yes its hard to do, but at least aim to play like that.

[buctootim]

Congratulations, you worked out its hard to play like Barca & Bayern - If however you don't try, you'll never go anywhere.

 

High Tempo to retain possession and controlling a game via possession is pretty much the perfect tactic to win the vast majority of games - yes its hard to do, but at least aim to play like that.

 

Still missing the point. We weren't trying to play like them, we were doing the opposite. We prioritised retaining possession over taking on players / the goal and potentially losing possession.

Edited 5 August, 2016 by buctootim

[Saint-Fred]

RK didn't value possession.. Our average possession per game fell massively from Poch's time to RKs and I am sure that last year we were about mid table for possession. I thought it was less than 50%?

[buctootim]

RK didn't value possession.. Our average possession per game fell massively from Poch's time to RKs and I am sure that last year we were about mid table for possession. I thought it was less than 50%?

 

It was less than 50% - and more effective. I was referring to Pochettino's time here and making the point possession doesnt mean much if you dont do anything with it. Under Pochettino we were hard to beat but didnt create much and had a lot of draws. These are the team stats for last season under Koeman, more 'Barcelona' like than Poch, moving the ball more quickly.

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/18/Statistics/England-Southampton

Edited 5 August, 2016 by buctootim

[Saint-Fred]

http://talksport.com/football/leicester-city-arsenal-every-premier-league-teams-average-possession-season-revealed?p=18

[Batman]

Congratulations, you worked out its hard to play like Barca & Bayern - If however you don't try, you'll never go anywhere.

 

High Tempo to retain possession and controlling a game via possession is pretty much the perfect tactic to win the vast majority of games - yes its hard to do, but at least aim to play like that.

 

Pep's side play with very wide forward players until they get the ball into the final 3rd and get the ball forward (on the ground) very quickly

 

we appear not to be doing that.

 

man united were a shyte example of 'controlling' possession - they had the most possession last season and looked terrible, generally.

arsenal are a far better one, very attractive on the eye

Edited 5 August, 2016 by Batman

[Saint-Fred]

It was less than 50% - and more effective. I was referring to Pochettino's time here and making the point possession doesnt mean much if you dont do anything with it. Under Pochettino we were hard to beat but didnt create much and had a lot of draws. These are the team stats for last season under Koeman, more 'Barcelona' like than Poch, moving the ball more quickly.

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/18/Statistics/England-Southampton

 

My post related more to those saying RK liked his teams to keep possession....Leicester are the perfect example of how effective a team can be without playing possession game and Man Utd I suppose the opposite, how to have a lot of possession and not be effective.

However it is noticeable that 4 of the top 5 (except LCFC) appear high in the average possession table...

[buctootim]

it is noticeable that 4 of the top 5 (except LCFC) appear high in the average possession table...

 

The top clubs will always have more money to recruit better players so their overall 'technical' stats should be higher. However Leicester are a great example of shaping your tactics to suit the players you have - which is why Ranieri deserves all his plaudits imo. Saints too punched above our weight. atm I have doubts Puel can continue that trend, I hope Im wrong.

[saintrich]

I like the idea of the 4-4-2 diamond as a second or alternative formation to switch to in some games, but the idea of it being our main formation concerns me a little.

 

I think it will suit our midfielders well; JWP and Clasie in particular. Having the choice of Romeu/Hojbjerg at the base and then any of JWP/Clasie/Hojbjerg/Davis in the two positions in front is great.

 

I'm not sure where Tadic, Redmond and Austin fit into this system. Hopefully we will still play a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 in some games.

[dronskisaint]

One of the attributes that was mooted for Puell when he came was the attractive football played by Nice.....we put together some really neat combinations round the box on Wednesday ...I know, friendly... and played some neat football. I'm not sure why he would change this. I also know that Nice were 4th...but given that PSG, Marseille, Lyon are their equivalent of our 'big 6' it seems that it's effective as well.

 

Let's save the worrying for when there's a reason?

[david in sweden]

RK didn't value possession.. Our average possession per game fell massively from Poch's time to RKs and I am sure that last year we were about mid table for possession. I thought it was less than 50%?

 

ironically .....my own stats. showed that we won more games when we had negative % possession, than those we lost with a + %.

 

of our 11 defeats ..we had majority % possession in 9 of them....yet still lost.

 

of the 18 wins ...12 were in games where we had negative % possession, yet still got the win.

 

STATS: in the 4-0 win over Arsenal at SMS...we had just 35 % possession to Arsenal's 65% (suck on that one Arsene )

 

we won 2-1 at White Hart Lane yet had 29% possession to their 71%. (most satisfying result of the season from my point of view.)

Edited 5 August, 2016 by david in sweden

[derry]

We looked pretty toothless to date. It's no good keeping possession and having the whole opponents team in front of the ball. If Puel thinks we are going to have more possession against the top teams he is living in cloud cuckoo land. Against the top teams it's work hard, defend hard, hit on the break and get something from set pieces. Time for a reality check.

[whelk]

My word the melts are out in force without a ball being kicked in a competitive game. Fck me are you lot just bored. Tactical geniuses to a man. Hope none of you fckers sit in the Kingsland.

[Saint-Fred]

ironically .....my own stats. showed that we won more games when we had negative % possession, than those we lost with a + %.

 

of our 11 defeats ..we had majority % possession in 9 of them....yet still lost.

 

of the 18 wins ...12 were in games where we had negative % possession, yet still got the win.

 

STATS: in the 4-0 win over Arsenal at SMS...we had just 35 % possession to Arsenal's 65% (suck on that one Arsene )

 

we won 2-1 at White Hart Lane yet had 29% possession to their 71%. (most satisfying result of the season from my point of view.)

 

Ultimately I suppose this shows its really about getting the ball in the net!

 

And yeah Poch likes possession so that win was sweet!

[Saint-Fred]

My word the melts are out in force without a ball being kicked in a competitive game. Fck me are you lot just bored. Tactical geniuses to a man. Hope none of you fckers sit in the Kingsland.

 

Thanx for sharing!

[Lets B Avenue]

Thanx for sharing!

 

He's not wrong though.

[harvey]

We looked pretty toothless to date. It's no good keeping possession and having the whole opponents team in front of the ball. If Puel thinks we are going to have more possession against the top teams he is living in cloud cuckoo land. Against the top teams it's work hard, defend hard, hit on the break and get something from set pieces. Time for a reality check.

 

Have to agree with this.

[Saint-Fred]

He's not wrong though.

 

Everyone is entitled to an opinion!

[Saint-Fred]

We looked pretty toothless to date. It's no good keeping possession and having the whole opponents team in front of the ball. If Puel thinks we are going to have more possession against the top teams he is living in cloud cuckoo land. Against the top teams it's work hard, defend hard, hit on the break and get something from set pieces. Time for a reality check.

 

I am sure against the top teams that what's we are likely to do..I though I read Puels teams were good at that? We have a good goalie and defence and Pace up front. The issue may be against the "lesser" teams..have we got the guile to break down a team which just sits back? That's something we have struggled with for a few seasons IMO.

[striker]

We looked pretty toothless to date. It's no good keeping possession and having the whole opponents team in front of the ball. If Puel thinks we are going to have more possession against the top teams he is living in cloud cuckoo land. Against the top teams it's work hard, defend hard, hit on the break and get something from set pieces. Time for a reality check.

 

I agree with this. It will be very hard to score if our possession control means giving any PL team a chance to get organized defensively. These teams can all defend well if given the time.

[AllSorts]

If the team win friendlies they get no bonuses. If they win premier league matches their bonuses are fab. If a forward scores in a friendly no bonuses. In a premier league match their bonuses are fab. If a forward gets injured in a preseason friendly going full tilt their bonus ability is negated. If they go full tilt in a premier league match they may score and get fab bonuses.

 

Do you think that might have something to do with the lack of goal scoring threat in the final third in preseason against better opposition than last year?

[Professor]

With all the free advice available to the manager on here it must make his job really easy. Hard to understand why managers get paid such huge salaries when it's a job that so many fans think they could do, and do it better, simply with the expertise gained from being a paying customer.

[Batman]

With all the free advice available to the manager on here it must make his job really easy. Hard to understand why managers get paid such huge salaries when it's a job that so many fans think they could do, and do it better, simply with the expertise gained from being a paying customer.

 

You are right. Fans were wrong when branfoot was in charge and had Le Tissier sat on the bench.

 

Fans telling him what do to. Tsk

[warsash saint]

You are right. Fans were wrong when branfoot was in charge and had Le Tissier sat on the bench.

 

Fans telling him what do to. Tsk

 

Oh come on .... you melts are rubbishing the passing tactics of the last 2 managers - 2 of the most successful managers in Saints history:mcinnes:

 

There's gonna be a lot of duvets in the wash tomorrow!

[Saint IQ]

If the team win friendlies they get no bonuses. If they win premier league matches their bonuses are fab. If a forward scores in a friendly no bonuses. In a premier league match their bonuses are fab. If a forward gets injured in a preseason friendly going full tilt their bonus ability is negated. If they go full tilt in a premier league match they may score and get fab bonuses.

 

Do you think that might have something to do with the lack of goal scoring threat in the final third in preseason against better opposition than last year?

 

Playing devils advocate Spurs beat Inter 6-1 today in a friendly! Perhaps they got bonuses for that game

[whelk]

Oh come on .... you melts are rubbishing the passing tactics of the last 2 managers - 2 of the most successful managers in Saints history:mcinnes:

 

There's gonna be a lot of duvets in the wash tomorrow!

 

He will no doubt be lamenting the loss of Pelle's deft touch next season. They cannot help themselves they are wired differently.

[Batman]

Oh come on .... you melts are rubbishing the passing tactics of the last 2 managers - 2 of the most successful managers in Saints history:mcinnes:

 

There's gonna be a lot of duvets in the wash tomorrow!

 

Not really raised any concerns about Puel's system.

 

Only that this transfer window for us has been pretty average at the very best.

 

Plenty others have been worse. But carry on calling me a melt. Play the ball not the man

[Faz]

There's nothing like being optimistic at the start of a new season. And this is nothing like being optimistic at the start of a new season.

[Mr Biscuits]

+1 quality thread

[Shroppie]

Good discussion!

 

I agree that possession isn't that important. Long periods of possession without incisive movement and the ability to inject sudden pace or find the killer pass can result in the sort of turgid sideways and backwards football (eg Man U last season) that is so frustrating and boring.

 

The longer a team has the ball, the longer it gives the opposition to build and keep a defensive formation.

 

The most successful teams currently are those who recognise and exploit the opportunities that come in transition phases. A team is at its most vulnerable when the ball is lost either with its players in attacking positions or, trying to play out from the back with players pushing forwards.

 

Hence the importance of pressing to win the ball whilst the opposition are least prepared to defend. Pochettino is the extreme advocate of that and we saw how effective it was until we got tired and/or teams worked out how to use the long ball to counter. Under Koeman we pressed less but it was still effective at times. But we also fell into negative possession on occasions, especially when teams parked the bus.

 

The key factor, whether you are pressing or in possession, is the speed of developing an attack. Look at Leicester last season, for example.

 

I think pressing, at the right time, is an essential element of the modern game and I hope we don't lose it. To make the patient, possession game work we need at least one incisive passer and pacy movement. I think we're still a player short.

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

[ENSKIED]

That suggests there's never been a bad manager or bad decision then.

 

Fans watch their team and players for years, they stay when managers come and go. Some will be good at analysing our situation and weaknesses, others won't. Writing off the opinion of all fans because they aren't in the game themselves does slightly make a football forum redundant.

That's the Professor [and others] taught a valuable lesson.

[Andy Durman]

Puel either sold the system to Saints or maybe Saints had already decided to change to this system. It would not have been a knee jerk reaction. Very rarely do Saints make decisions without a great deal of analysis and detail. Saints are a progressive club. There has to be a transition period and I believe when everybody buys into change, this change could give us the edge on other teams again this season. Keep moving forward.

 

We March On!

[Turkish]

That suggests there's never been a bad manager or bad decision then.

 

Fans watch their team and players for years, they stay when managers come and go. Some will be good at analysing our situation and weaknesses, others won't. Writing off the opinion of all fans because they aren't in the game themselves does slightly make a football forum redundant.

 

Despite the fact that this forum is full of master tacticians, finance experts, transfer gurus, physios and so on let's be blunt at least 90% of the people who post on here haven't got a f*cking clue what they're on about.

[Wes Tender]

 

I think pressing, at the right time, is an essential element of the modern game and I hope we don't lose it. To make the patient, possession game work we need at least one incisive passer and pacy movement. I think we're still a player short.

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

 

Oh, I don't know. We have some incisive passers like Tadic and now Hojbjerg, arguably J-WP too. Pacey movement? Long, Redmond especially, and Cedric and Bertrand are no slouches out wide. I agree though that we are perhaps one player short and for me that is a striker to replace Pelle, just in case Austin, Long and Rodriguez come up short or are injured. Puel seems to fancy having Redmond up front, but his effectiveness remains to be tested in the PL.

[ENSKIED]

Despite the fact that this forum is full of master tacticians, finance experts, transfer gurus, physios and so on let's be blunt at least 90% of the people who post on here haven't got a f*cking clue what they're on about.

 

Which sums up every single football forum there is, as adriansfc duly intimated.

[Miltonaggro]

This short article really hits on my concerns for our offensive side. First Puel values possession over all. I fear this will be like the National team, passing around controlling possession for 65% of the time, but never getting a goal. We need attacking/finishing ability too. Second he seems set on his system and expects the players to adapt. I would have hoped he'd looked at the players we have, and adapt his system to get the best result. I wonder what happens if we start slowly? Will he adapt the system or not?

 

https://www.clubcall.com/southampton/puel-makes-possession-priority-1816698.html

 

 

The last 25 games of the national team (since the 2014 WC), playing a similar system with emphasis on possession, yielded results of W18, D4, L3. This included wins against several 'big teams' (Portugal, Netherlands, Germany, France). If Puel delivers similar results with his similar system he will get us into the Champions League. The time to press the panic button is probably not pre-season...

[whelk]

Unbeaten in pre-season won't stop many panicking.

[Saint-Fred]

Good discussion!

 

I agree that possession isn't that important. Long periods of possession without incisive movement and the ability to inject sudden pace or find the killer pass can result in the sort of turgid sideways and backwards football (eg Man U last season) that is so frustrating and boring.

 

The longer a team has the ball, the longer it gives the opposition to build and keep a defensive formation.

 

The most successful teams currently are those who recognise and exploit the opportunities that come in transition phases. A team is at its most vulnerable when the ball is lost either with its players in attacking positions or, trying to play out from the back with players pushing forwards.

 

Hence the importance of pressing to win the ball whilst the opposition are least prepared to defend. Pochettino is the extreme advocate of that and we saw how effective it was until we got tired and/or teams worked out how to use the long ball to counter. Under Koeman we pressed less but it was still effective at times. But we also fell into negative possession on occasions, especially when teams parked the bus.

 

The key factor, whether you are pressing or in possession, is the speed of developing an attack. Look at Leicester last season, for example.

 

I think pressing, at the right time, is an essential element of the modern game and I hope we don't lose it. To make the patient, possession game work we need at least one incisive passer and pacy movement. I think we're still a player short.

 

Sent from my D6503 using Tapatalk

 

From memory I think the teams which had the highest points lost from winning positions were those which are known to play high pressing games (Spurs and Liverpool were up there)..so high press is not without a cost/risk later in the game.As you say it's the balance that is hard to achieve and pressing at the right time was more what we did under RK than the high press game of Poch. Both,however, achieved despite the two different ways of playing.

The top teams do have higher possession as they dominate games so it's important that they can break down those stubborn defences, The inability to do that might have contributed to the high number of away wins we saw at the front end of last season.

I can see a number of teams coming to us next year sitting back, giving us possession so I think we will see some more of the possession, passing back and forth across the field as we search for a way through? As is said above Tadic has the ability to create chances in that situation and perhaps Austin who is capable of taking the half chances will be an asset in those matches?

[benjii]

On Wednesday we looked to attack in numbers and quite quickly. We often looked to release a full-back early then build from there in triangles. Tadic played a lot of forward passes.

 

There was no "tippy-tappy sideways nonsense" although what was also noticeable was that we didn't bother putting aerial crosses in until Austin and Jay Rod were on the pitch. Martina had clearly been told to look for Long or Tadic on the ground, rather than cross it in.

 

We also looked dangerous at set pieces.

 

We won't score many scrappy goals out of nothing playing in this system - it requires good decision making and technique to work - but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest we will be defensive or boring. From what I've seen, Puel looks to be a more offensive coach in possession than Poch and Koeman.

[buctootim]

Good discussion!

 

I agree that possession isn't that important. Long periods of possession without incisive movement and the ability to inject sudden pace or find the killer pass can result in the sort of turgid sideways and backwards football (eg Man U last season) that is so frustrating and boring.

 

The longer a team has the ball, the longer it gives the opposition to build and keep a defensive formation.

 

The most successful teams currently are those who recognise and exploit the opportunities that come in transition phases. A team is at its most vulnerable when the ball is lost either with its players in attacking positions or, trying to play out from the back with players pushing forwards.

 

Hence the importance of pressing to win the ball whilst the opposition are least prepared to defend. Pochettino is the extreme advocate of that and we saw how effective it was until we got tired and/or teams worked out how to use the long ball to counter. Under Koeman we pressed less but it was still effective at times. But we also fell into negative possession on occasions, especially when teams parked the bus.

 

The key factor, whether you are pressing or in possession, is the speed of developing an attack. Look at Leicester last season, for example.

 

I think pressing, at the right time, is an essential element of the modern game and I hope we don't lose it. To make the patient, possession game work we need at least one incisive passer and pacy movement. I think we're still a player short.

 

Leicester are a great example of devising tactics which circumvent the fact that other teams often had technically better players.

 

Their PL winning stats from last season look more like a bottom half team (many worse than Bournemouth), but they won by breaking fast, hard work and making a lot of tackles and interceptions. Compare them with Spurs who came 4th.

Possession 45% (Spurs 55%)

Pass completion 70% (Spurs 80%)

Shots on target per game 4.4 (Spurs 6.6)

 

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/14/Statistics/England-Leicester

https://www.whoscored.com/Teams/30

Edited 6 August, 2016 by buctootim