The New Formation Thread : The Puel 4-4-2 Diamond

[ericofarabia]

My concern for playing this at the weekend was how often Targett was left on his own defending against two attackers (when Bilbao could be bothered to attack). Seems a bit nuts that we've spent 4 years getting players in to suit the clubs way of playing e.g. 4-3-3 and then ditching it. I of course hope to be proved wrong!

 

And of course it isn't just the 1st XI. One of the things often said was how good the club were at getting the youngsters familiar with the system used by the 1st XI by playing the new style at all levels.

Now the other coaches are going to have to coach the kids a system which they themselves may not be familiar with!!

[SuperSAINT]

Prediction: The diamond is going to be this seasons scapegoat.

 

ITK

[david in sweden]

We have plenty of options in midfield, and it just a case of finding a formation that functions well.

Matt Targett is unlikley to get LB spot ahead of an in-form / fit Bertrand, but Koeman's experiment with 3-5-1 also showed that Targett CDAJFU in a more forward role.

 

Somewhere there is the correct set-up between; Davis / Romeu / Hojdbjerg / Clasie /Tadic and JWP but we just haven't got it right yet.

 

I'd like to see another striker ....and keep JayRod, but as it seems Redmond has a "nailed-on place " under Puel, it's mere a case of rotating / subbing in partners between Long, Austin and JayRod till you find the best combination.

[Mr X]

Claude has explained it himself http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/14707222.Puel_explains_Saints_changes/#comments-anchor makes perfect sense

[angelman]

Claude has explained it himself http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/14707222.Puel_explains_Saints_changes/#comments-anchor makes perfect sense

 

Play the counter attack - fine. But do that, then why not start with the player who is best in our squad at counter attacking - Shlong?

[BARCELONASAINT]

Now maybe i'm being a bit naive here....or not.....i'm only going by what i have experienced at all the teams i have played for over the years. Whenever there has been something the players didn't like about something a manager tried implementing then the senior players would discuss the teams concerns with the manager. Sometimes the managers took the concerns on board and changed thing...sometimes not....my point being would this not apply to all teams, even Saints???

 

Surely if the players are really against the diamond formation and don't feel it best suits what we have then the Fonte as Captain and the more senior players would sound Puel out about it???

 

I've heard alot mentioned about poor body language and players looking ****ed off....personally cant say i've seen that or i'm not making huge assumptions.

 

What do people think?

[derry]

Something I don't get, play possession football mostly in your own half, then counter attack, how does that work?

[Lord Duckhunter]

What I don't get is the people saying "'we've played x way for 6 years" . What a load of pony . Ron's sides didn't play the same way as Pochs , anyone who thinks they did is clueless . Anyone judging Claude now is a plank . Early last season we played hoof ball in Denmark and I saw 2 horrendous 0-0's at Watford & West Brom and got outclassed by Everton . We're in one more completion than we were this time under Ron and he can't do any worse in the cups than he did .

[The9]

Play the counter attack - fine. But do that, then why not start with the player who is best in our squad at counter attacking - Shlong?

 

Has to balance it with picking the players who he wants to keep happy as well, especially if they're doing well and will be needed when we have Europa League games too.

 

Long is, as you say, better suited to the counter than Austin, so it makes all the sense in the world to play Austin in a match where we'll have more possession. Personally I'd have picked Rogriguez and Long (blah blah, refer to the point I've been making for two weeks about needing to threaten high crosses as well as through balls), but I'm picking my preferences match by match rather than with a mind to picking two teams a week and making sure players are motivated and sharp when they're called upon.

 

Plus he's probably still testing his ideas of players' abilities in actual match situations, there's nothing that recreates the live tactical ebb and flow of a match other than a match. I'm fairly sure he's confirmed Austin doesn't like defending though.

[benjii]

What I don't get is the people saying "'we've played x way for 6 years" . What a load of pony . Ron's sides didn't play the same way as Pochs , anyone who thinks they did is clueless . Anyone judging Claude now is a plank . Early last season we played hoof ball in Denmark and I saw 2 horrendous 0-0's at Watford & West Brom and got outclassed by Everton . We're in one more completion than we were this time under Ron and he can't do any worse in the cups than he did .

 

Quite. And the ****e performances under Koeman weren't confined to the first few matches of the season either. Bournemouth away anyone... surely a glorious example of flowing, high-tempo, attacking verve in the "Southampton Way" 4-3-3 (peace be upon it)? No, a tepid, lacklustre shower of ****e with loads of space in key Bournemouth attacking areas.

 

We played worse than we have done this season, numerous times last season.

 

The goals we have conceded this season have been nothing to do with the system. They have come from individuals making sloppy mistakes, either in defending (hacking people down in the box, not closing down, ignoring runners) or in conceding possession.

 

The fact is, a lot of the players in our squad were at their absolute maximum last season in terms of league position relative to ability. Cedric, Romeu, Classie, Davis, JWP, Long, Austin..... those are not players who execute everything perfectly every time (or nearly every time). They are not elite players and you wouldn't really expect to see them in a team knocking on the Champions League places (yes, I know you could say the same about most of Leicester's team but that was a freak etc....). They are solid Prem players and a team comprised largely of solid Prem players is unlikely to finish in the top third that often. In the match yesterday we had plenty of good chances but messed them up through poor execution. The system was fine.

 

Our success under Poch, and under Koeman in his first season, was due to us having a few players who were genuinely good enough for the top teams (Lallana, Shaw, Clyne, Schneiderlin, Mane) supplementing a core of hard-working and well-drilled players with no big weak links. Last season we were really not all that for large parts and were beneficiaries of Chelsea and Liverpool being ****-poor.

 

The only players we currently have that would be of any interest to the very best teams might be Forster, Bertrand and van Dijk. We need a couple of real quality offensive players. If we had them we would probably have won both our home games. I don't think it is Puel's fault that they are not here. I also don't think that the fact they are currently not hear is anything to panic about.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Quite. And the ****e performances under Koeman weren't confined to the first few matches of the season either. Bournemouth away anyone... surely a glorious example of flowing, high-tempo, attacking verve in the "Southampton Way" 4-3-3 (peace be upon it)? No, a tepid, lacklustre shower of ****e with loads of space in key Bournemouth attacking areas.

 

We played worse than we have done this season, numerous times last season.

 

The goals we have conceded this season have been nothing to do with the system. They have come from individuals making sloppy mistakes, either in defending (hacking people down in the box, not closing down, ignoring runners) or in conceding possession.

 

The fact is, a lot of the players in our squad were at their absolute maximum last season in terms of league position relative to ability. Cedric, Romeu, Classie, Davis, JWP, Long, Austin..... those are not players who execute everything perfectly every time (or nearly every time). They are not elite players and you wouldn't really expect to see them in a team knocking on the Champions League places (yes, I know you could say the same about most of Leicester's team but that was a freak etc....). They are solid Prem players and a team comprised largely of solid Prem players is unlikely to finish in the top third that often. In the match yesterday we had plenty of good chances but messed them up through poor execution. The system was fine.

 

Our success under Poch, and under Koeman in his first season, was due to us having a few players who were genuinely good enough for the top teams (Lallana, Shaw, Clyne, Schneiderlin, Mane) supplementing a core of hard-working and well-drilled players with no big weak links. Last season we were really not all that for large parts and were beneficiaries of Chelsea and Liverpool being ****-poor.

 

The only players we currently have that would be of any interest to the very best teams might be Forster, Bertrand and van Dijk. We need a couple of real quality offensive players. If we had them we would probably have won both our home games. I don't think it is Puel's fault that they are not here. I also don't think that the fact they are currently not hear is anything to panic about.

 

Spot on

[Raging Bull]

Now maybe i'm being a bit naive here....or not.....i'm only going by what i have experienced at all the teams i have played for over the years. Whenever there has been something the players didn't like about something a manager tried implementing then the senior players would discuss the teams concerns with the manager. Sometimes the managers took the concerns on board and changed thing...sometimes not....my point being would this not apply to all teams, even Saints???

 

Surely if the players are really against the diamond formation and don't feel it best suits what we have then the Fonte as Captain and the more senior players would sound Puel out about it???

 

I've heard alot mentioned about poor body language and players looking ****ed off....personally cant say i've seen that or i'm not making huge assumptions.

 

What do people think?

 

I would suggest it's too early to change it for a few reasons, the main ones being we haven't really given it a go, plus we brought the guy in, knowing all about how he plays etc so the club should be comfortable with it.

 

I think that to change it at this stage of the season would show a lack of faith in him, which in my opinion is very unfair on the bloke.

[The9]

Signing that number 10 with Boufal certainly won't hurt, hopefully his ability will open up space for others that Tadić hasn't whilst playing out of position. I still think we need to show that we offer an aerial threat to really get defences on edge, but it might be that Boufal can run at people Mané style and create space for others like that.

[The9]

Something I don't get, play possession football mostly in your own half, then counter attack, how does that work?

 

That's the main problem, I think. The mentality of a couple of the midfielders was clear on Saturday, especially when Davis was haring towards space in behind their defence with the ball and chose to cut back and we played the ball back to Targett with their entire team between him and the goal.

 

It's fine to set up to counter, but if we do, we need to shift the ball forward to the wide strikers quickly and support in numbers. Keeping possession is also ok, but both work a lot better if you're already leading, and don't expect us to be able to do both of those at the same time!

 

Hopefully now we've a club record signing at the tip of the diamond (if he's Saints fit soon enough) we'll be able to unlock even established defences, but I do still worry we're not giving them enough to think about or encouraging bad defensive decisions which lead to chance creation rather than just shots from range.

Edited 29 August, 2016 by The9

[derry]

Man City played an interesting 4-3-3 within which was a diamond shape. Back four, Fernandinho in front, DeBruyne and Villa in midfield with Aguero in front of them making up a diamond with Sterling and Nolito wide on the wings. Aguero the striker was at the front of the diamond which looked pretty good because of the wingers. Guardiola was jumping about at times waving at the wide men to stay out there and not get narrow.

[derry]

That's the main problem, I think. The mentality of a couple of the midfielders was clear on Saturday, especially when Davis was haring towards space in behind their defence with the ball and chose to cut back and we played the ball back to Targett with their entire team between him and the goal.

 

It's fine to set up to counter, but if we do, we need to shift the ball forward to the wide strikers quickly and support in numbers. Keeping possession is also ok, but both work a lot better if you're already leading, and don't expect us to be able to do both of those at the same time!

 

Hopefully now we've a club record signing at the tip of the diamond (if he's Saints fit soon enough) we'll be able to unlock even established defences, but I do still worry we're not giving them enough to think about or encouraging bad defensive decisions which lead to chance creation rather than just shots from range.

 

So to sum up it doesn't work unless we do something differently. Trouble is the players don't get it. Leicester counter attack we let a team consolidate in front of us and try and pass through them, lose the ball and end up using lots of energy trying to recover. I thought the idea was to save their legs for two games a week. I think that's a myth. We would be better playing a system that the players suit, like, understand and buy into. This will end up in tears for somebody unless the players buy into it.

[The9]

So to sum up it doesn't work unless we do something differently. Trouble is the players don't get it. Leicester counter attack we let a team consolidate in front of us and try and pass through them, lose the ball and end up using lots of energy trying to recover. I thought the idea was to save their legs for two games a week. I think that's a myth. We would be better playing a system that the players suit, like, understand and buy into. This will end up in tears for somebody unless the players buy into it.

 

We can score from counterattacking with the current tactics, but we haven't really tried to counterattack since pre-season, and it should only really work against teams that attack us anyway, but we have gone behind in all three matches nevertheless. The possession approach doesn't work against an established defence because we haven't have players to create the space - though it might if Boufal is anything like as good as he's meant to be.

[The9]

Man City played an interesting 4-3-3 within which was a diamond shape. Back four, Fernandinho in front, DeBruyne and Villa in midfield with Aguero in front of them making up a diamond with Sterling and Nolito wide on the wings. Aguero the striker was at the front of the diamond which looked pretty good because of the wingers. Guardiola was jumping about at times waving at the wide men to stay out there and not get narrow.

 

You can play any formation you like with the players they can afford and still get away with it though. We need to maximise efficiency and minimise stuff like learning curves (and, more obviously, not buying players so late we drop points due to glaring weaknesses first, which also happened last year until Van Dijk joined).

[SNSUN]

Been having a think about our formation. I'm willing to give the diamond a good run out but if it's not working, Puel may need to change things. If we think about the squad, and what our best players are in each position, would something like the Christmas Tree of old (not the Bassett Christmas Pudding!) work for us? I'd assume our strongest team with that position would be:

 

---------------Forster-----------------

 

Cedric--Fonte---Van Dijk---Bertrand

 

Davis-------Romeu-----------Hojbjerg

 

-------Boufal--------Tadic------------

 

-------------Long----------------------

 

Or is that too little goalscoring potential? I suppose it's pretty close to the diamond if you drop Romeu deeper, the difference being it substitutes a striker (Redmond in this case who is a great asset to have coming off the bench anyway) for a creator.

 

Perhaps I just like the sound of Tadic and Boufal on the pitch together. :-)

[The9]

Been having a think about our formation. I'm willing to give the diamond a good run out but if it's not working, Puel may need to change things. If we think about the squad, and what our best players are in each position, would something like the Christmas Tree of old (not the Bassett Christmas Pudding!) work for us? I'd assume our strongest team with that position would be:

 

---------------Forster-----------------

 

Cedric--Fonte---Van Dijk---Bertrand

 

Davis-------Romeu-----------Hojbjerg

 

-------Boufal--------Tadic------------

 

-------------Long----------------------

 

Or is that too little goalscoring potential? I suppose it's pretty close to the diamond if you drop Romeu deeper, the difference being it substitutes a striker (Redmond in this case who is a great asset to have coming off the bench anyway) for a creator.

 

Perhaps I just like the sound of Tadic and Boufal on the pitch together. :-)

 

Boufal has literally been signed specifically to play at the point of the diamond, so it seems a bit silly to change the formation so he isn't playing there now we've actually got him.

[The9]

You can play any formation you like with the players they can afford and still get away with it though. We need to maximise efficiency and minimise stuff like learning curves (and, more obviously, not buying players so late we drop points due to glaring weaknesses first, which also happened last year until Van Dijk joined).

 

I'd also like to point out Boufal not being available until October absolutely sods this right up, even if he does end up being the greatest thing since sliced bread, he's still been unavailable for two months and the club (from the early "he won't play yet" PR) obviously knew this.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't have signed him, I'm saying we might have considered an interim solution that wasn't just Tadic in the number 10 role having seen how blunt we've been going forward without any variety in our attacking.

[Pilchards]

When or if we do crack this diamond formation then teams are going to find it hard to play against us.

They certainly won't be copying it for a long time.

[wild-saint]

I'd also like to point out Boufal not being available until October absolutely sods this right up, even if he does end up being the greatest thing since sliced bread, he's still been unavailable for two months and the club (from the early "he won't play yet" PR) obviously knew this.

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't have signed him, I'm saying we might have considered an interim solution that wasn't just Tadic in the number 10 role having seen how blunt we've been going forward without any variety in our attacking.

 

redmond in the 10 role? not really shor of options

[doddisalegend]

redmond in the 10 role? not really shor of options

 

 

Redmond dropped in there late against Sunderland after Tadic came off and looked very good by far his best spell in the games I've seen. I'd be tempted to try him there with Long and Jrod as the two strikers.

[doddisalegend]

Interview with Romeu. Makes it sound like the players are enjoying the challenge.

 

"Everyone is enjoying training and learning the new system under the manager. It was always going to take time to adapt to a different way of playing but with every game and every training session, our understanding and experience of that system improves.”

 

http://soccer.nbcsports.com/tag/southampton/

[SuperSAINT]

Interview with Romeu. Makes it sound like the players are enjoying the challenge.

 

"Everyone is enjoying training and learning the new system under the manager. It was always going to take time to adapt to a different way of playing but with every game and every training session, our understanding and experience of that system improves.”

 

http://soccer.nbcsports.com/tag/southampton/

 

I think players will always say that sort of stuff though.

[New Forest Steve]

I think players will always say that sort of stuff though.

 

Indeed they will or they'll be sat on the bench next game ... it's called 'knowing which side your breads buttered'

[The9]

Redmond dropped in there late against Sunderland after Tadic came off and looked very good by far his best spell in the games I've seen. I'd be tempted to try him there with Long and Jrod as the two strikers.

 

He did, and we've put a few people there, but none of them have exactly... worked. I'd suggest Hojbjerg, but even though I think he's been very good overall, he seems to play more safe passes out to the wing from the edge of the box than anyone.

[doddisalegend]

I think players will always say that sort of stuff though.

 

 

I just knew that would be the first respone ?

[FriendlySaint]

Man City played an interesting 4-3-3 within which was a diamond shape. Back four, Fernandinho in front, DeBruyne and Villa in midfield with Aguero in front of them making up a diamond with Sterling and Nolito wide on the wings. Aguero the striker was at the front of the diamond which looked pretty good because of the wingers. Guardiola was jumping about at times waving at the wide men to stay out there and not get narrow.

 

It's a 4-3-3 that city play, Not a diamond. Guardiola lets the striker roam more, sometimes as a false 9. But the striker/false 9 doesn't have an defensive duties. It's certainly not the same to how we are setting up as we end up with the two strikers on the wing and tracking back against the other team's full backs...they are playing an actual 4-3-3. We are playing a diamond , but making the strikers defend as if they are wide men in 4-3-3.

[benjii]

I wonder if the striker role in non-possession is an interim thing. Ie. an abundance of caution from Puel. Is this what his strikers did last season?

 

Once the midfield and defence and more comfortable with the shape in defence, I wonder if the strikers will be given more freedom to stay in more central positions?

 

It could be an evolutionary thing.

 

Either way, it's interesting but also a bit frustrating!

[FriendlySaint]

If we keep the system the same then having Tadic left striker, Redmond right striker with long or Rodriguez at 10 (if it's a diamond) is our best bet .As this way if the strikers (Tadic and Redmond in the example) end up wide and having to defend it doesn't matter as they are more suited to being wingers in a 4-3-3 anyway (and for me Tadic is best on the left). And the 10 will push up to support and make good runs forward as either one is a natural striker... If Puel wants to defend like a 4-3-3 (with the front two defending as if they were wingers in a 4-3-3) but attack in a diamond-ish set up where the 10 sometimes becomes a striker/false 9 anyway then setting up with two wingers up top and a striker behind (ideally a back to his best Rodriguez) is probably the best bet.

[Alanh]

The last few posts illustrate how we are essentially playing 4-3-3 and for me the diamond concept is a red herring with regard to the actual shape of the team on the pitch. If the strikers and No 10 rotate positions as they did in the two home games you have something similar to when Poch had Lallana, Lambert and JRod rotating as a 3 up front backed up with a midfield 3 of Schneiderlin, Cork and Davis. We don't seem to have the same high pressing tactic, but other than that it's pretty similar.

[Cartman]

The last few posts illustrate how we are essentially playing 4-3-3 and for me the diamond concept is a red herring with regard to the actual shape of the team on the pitch. If the strikers and No 10 rotate positions as they did in the two home games you have something similar to when Poch had Lallana, Lambert and JRod rotating as a 3 up front backed up with a midfield 3 of Schneiderlin, Cork and Davis. We don't seem to have the same high pressing tactic, but other than that it's pretty similar.

 

Someone gets it! This obsession with formation labels is irritating, it's as if players don't move and are confined to what their positions are supposed to be on paper. A diamond is exactly the same as a 433 with a false 9, the central player dropping off to escape the marking of the centre backs and the wide players making diagonal runs in the space between the centre back and the full back. The whole "we only play with one holding midfielder" is also nonsense, it's really 3 with one being much more defensive than either of the two in a 4231 and effectively acting as a third centre back in the attacking phase of play splitting the centre backs who are then responsible for covering the space left by the full backs playing very high up the pitch. Again, what happens in a 433 possession based team. All of this is much more similar to our game under Poch than what we played under Koeman and wouldn't be surprised if it had much to do with Les lukewarm opinion of Koeman, especially Koeman's preference for static forwards with wide men staying wide and slinging endless crosses towards a big lump up front. Expect to see much less of players like Pelle and Austin and more like Mané and Boufal, with greater emphasis on dribbling and through balls to unravel organized defenses. Over the last few seasons our dribbling stats in the final third have been among the worst in the league, it's little wonder we just end up passing the ball around without knowing what to do. We don't as press much as under Poch but then that is probably what Puel was referring to when he mentioned the number of games we have, his Nice team pressed a lot and were very aggressive. As much as I think very highly of him, Poch's teams are quite consistent when it comes to fading towards the end of the season.

[Saint_clark]

Except it's quite clearly not the same. Under Poch you had Morgan and Cork dropping deep, last season Wanyama and Clasie/Romeu. This season it's just Romeu on his own with two midfielders kind of in no mans land whilst they figure out what it is they're supposed to do, Tadic playing damn well as a number 10 and two strikers who run wide.

The problem may well be that the CMs we have aren't adept enough at getting forward to score goals, and so the strikers going wide leaves no-one in the middle to score from their passes back in.

[Batman]

He has said he will change the team every game in the next period of fixtures in order to cope with the additional games

 

 

thought that was the reasoning behind this stupid diamond formation?

[northam soul]

He has said he will change the team every game in the next period of fixtures in order to cope with the additional games

 

 

thought that was the reasoning behind this stupid diamond formation?

 

We are not good enough to change the team every game. Find your best eleven and stick to it ffs

[FriendlySaint]

The last few posts illustrate how we are essentially playing 4-3-3 and for me the diamond concept is a red herring with regard to the actual shape of the team on the pitch. If the strikers and No 10 rotate positions as they did in the two home games you have something similar to when Poch had Lallana, Lambert and JRod rotating as a 3 up front backed up with a midfield 3 of Schneiderlin, Cork and Davis. We don't seem to have the same high pressing tactic, but other than that it's pretty similar.

 

Pochettino played a different system for sure because it was a double pivot (two holding players in midfield). With Puel it's one holding midfielder. That plus what's already been mentioned.

[Saint_clark]

We are not good enough to change the team every game. Find your best eleven and stick to it ffs

 

Ridiculous comment, as one of the biggest criticisms of the transfer window was that we didn't sign more to cover for the extra Europa League games...when you have depth, you don't use it by waiting for someone to get injured and THEN bringing someone else in. You rotate when the fixtures are thick and fast to avoid players performances dropping and them getting injuries.

[SuperSAINT]

Saw a few people last night saying we actually played better WITH the diamond than now we've gone to 4-3-3.

 

I'd like to see us switch it up, depending on who we play.