Academy Pathway vs Transfer Business

Donatello · 19 July, 2016

Warning, this’ll be cumbersome.

There’s a lot of fan discussion about incoming players (i.e. a Pelle replacement, a Mane replacement, a Wanyama replacement), versus the image originating from the club and various news outlets (i.e. Pelle’s been replaced, Redmond is Mane’s replacement(?), Puel wants a RB), versus the theory that the club are merely portraying a modest transfer front in order to prevent price escalation, versus the theory we’re trying to reestablish(?) the “Academy Pathway” to the first team (a strike against Koeman mooted around Jan ‘16, purportedly), and that Puel is a manager with an inclination towards developing academy prospects. So I thought it pertinent to create a thread to centralise discussion about the club’s philosophy where academy players are concerned, versus transfer policy.

The second post of this thread will contain a depth chart of the squad for each of our five Prem seasons, to demonstrate how congested the pathway has or hasn’t been in each previous season, and how congested the pathway is or isn’t currently. Below that will be a chart detailing academy exposure to the first team on matchday (purely for those interested, rather than making any point), i.e. the following criteria, A) how many individual academy players made the matchday squad during the season, B) how many times were those players represented in the matchday squad in total, C) the number of times an academy player made an appearance, D) the number of times an academy player started a match, and E) the number of minutes on field accrued by academy players.

To summarise, I’m basically playing Devil’s Advocate with the following Qs,

1 - Would you be happy with the perception of the club being that of an academy club?

2 - Would you accept an attitude of almost positive discrimination towards youth to achieve this?

3 - Looking at the first team depth chart for 16/17, where do you think we need to improve and/or add depth? Can the current academy group provide said depth? Are they/some good enough?

4 - Do you see any academy players having breakthrough years in the first team? If so, who? By "breakthrough", I'm not necessarily talking Shaw-esque. Harry Reed's 29 matchday squad/9 appearances/5 starts in 14/15 comes to mind.

I’ll edit this post as people see fit/point out errors/take issue with my ‘methodology’. There will undoubtedly be mistakes, such is the extent to which I’ve edited things back and forth to little effect (.e.g my futile attempts to solve the alignment issue with the depth chart). As always, keep it civil Or f*ck off!

Development Squad (OS) (reference question 4)

Harry Lewis (GK), Jordan Turnbull (CB), Jack Stephens (CB), Bevis Mugabi (CB), Jason McCarthy (RB/CB), Will Wood (LB/CB), Josh Debayo (LB/CB), Ollie Cook (CB), Richard Bakary (RB), Alfie Jones (CM/CB), Dominic Gape (CM), Jake Flannigan (CM/RB), Jake Hesketh (CM), Armani Little (CM), Josh Sims (AM), Sam McQueen (AM), Harley Willard (AM), Ryan Seager (F), Marcus Barnes (F), Olufela Olomola (F). Plus Sam Gallagher (F) and Lloyd Isgrove (AM), as far as I'm concerned.

Edited 20 July, 2016 by Donatello

Donatello · 19 July, 2016

Try not to quote this. Once is enough of an eyesore

Goalkeeper

[table=width: 900, class: outer_border]

[tr]

[td]No.[/td]

[td]12/13[/td]

[td]13/14[/td]

[td]14/15[/td]

[td]15/16[/td]

[td]16/17[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]1[/td]

[td]Arthur Boruc[/td]

[td]Frazer Forster[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2[/td]

[td]Kelvin Davis[/td]

[td]Paulo Gazzaniga[/td]

[td]Marteen Stekelenburg[/td]

[td]Paulo Gazzaniga[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]3[/td]

[td]Paulo Gazzaniga[/td]

[td]Kelvin Davis[/td]

[td]Paulo Gazzaniga[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]4[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Cody Cropper[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Kelvin Davis[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Central Defenders

[table=width: 900, class: outer_border]

[tr]

[td]No.[/td]

[td]12/13[/td]

[td]13/14[/td]

[td]14/15[/td]

[td]15/16[/td]

[td]16/17[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]1[/td]

[td]Jose Fonte[/td]

[td]Dejan Lovren[/td]

[td]Toby Alderweireld[/td]

[td]Virgil van Dijk[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2[/td]

[td]Maya Yoshida[/td]

[td]Jose Fonte[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]3[/td]

[td]Jos Hooiveld[/td]

[td]Maya Yoshida[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]4[/td]

[td]Vegard Forren[/td]

[td]Jos Hooiveld[/td]

[td]Florin Gardos[/td]

[td]Steven Caulker[/td]

[td]Florin Gardos[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]5[/td]

[td]Danny Seaborne[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Jos Hooiveld[/td]

[td]Florin Gardos[/td]

[td]Jack Stephens?[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]6[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Jack Stephens[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Leftbacks

[table=width: 900, class: outer_border]

[tr]

[td]No.[/td]

[td]12/13[/td]

[td]13/14[/td]

[td]14/15[/td]

[td]15/16[/td]

[td]16/17[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]1[/td]

[td]Luke Shaw[/td]

[td]Ryan Bertrand[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2[/td]

[td]Danny Fox[/td]

[td]Matt Targett[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]3[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Matt Targett[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Rightbacks

[table=width: 870, class: outer_border]

[tr]

[td]No.[/td]

[td]12/13[/td]

[td]13/14[/td]

[td]14/15[/td]

[td]15/16[/td]

[td]16/17[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]1[/td]

[td]Nathaniel Clyne[/td]

[td]Cedric Soares[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2[/td]

[td]Frazer Richardson[/td]

[td]Callum Chambers[/td]

[td]Jason McCarthy[/td]

[td]Cuco Martina[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]3[/td]

[td]Callum Chambers[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Central Midfielders

[table=width: 900, class: outer_border]

[tr]

[td]No.[/td]

[td]12/13[/td]

[td]13/14[/td]

[td]14/15[/td]

[td]15/16[/td]

[td]16/17[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]1[/td]

[td]Morgan Schneiderlin[/td]

[td]Victor Wanyama[/td]

[td]Oriel Romeu[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2[/td]

[td]Jack Cork[/td]

[td]Victor Wanyama[/td]

[td]Oriel Romeu[/td]

[td]Pierre-Emile Hojbjerg[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]3[/td]

[td]James Ward Prowse[/td]

[td]Jack Cork[/td]

[td]James Ward Prowse[/td]

[td]Jordy Clasie[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]4[/td]

[td]Richard Chaplow[/td]

[td]James Ward Prowse[/td]

[td]Jack Cork[/td]

[td]James Ward Prowse[/td]

[td]James Ward Prowse[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]5[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Harrison Reed[/td]

[td]Harrison Reed?[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]6[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Dominic Gape[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]7[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Jake Flannigan[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]8[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Sadir Taider[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Advanced Midfielders

[table=width: 900, class: outer_border]

[tr]

[td]No.[/td]

[td]12/13[/td]

[td]13/14[/td]

[td]14/15[/td]

[td]15/16[/td]

[td]16/17[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]1[/td]

[td]Steven Davis[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2[/td]

[td]Adam Lallana[/td]

[td]Dusan Tadic[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]3[/td]

[td]Gaston Ramirez[/td]

[td]Sadio Mane[/td]

[td]Nathan Redmond[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]4[/td]

[td]Jason Puncheon[/td]

[td]Guly[/td]

[td]Eljero Elia[/td]

[td]Juanmi[/td]

[td]Jake Hesketh?[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]5[/td]

[td]Guly[/td]

[td]Lloyd Isgrove[/td]

[td]Filip Djuricic[/td]

[td]Gaston Ramirez[/td]

[td]Lloyd Isgrove?[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]6[/td]

[td]Steve De Ridder[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Jake Hesketh[/td]

[td]Olufela Olomola[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]7[/td]

[td]Ben Reeves[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Gaston Ramirez[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]8[/td]

[td]Lloyd Isgrove[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Lloyd Isgrove[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]9[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Sam McQueen[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Forwards

[table=width: 900, class: outer_border]

[tr]

[td]No.[/td]

[td]12/13[/td]

[td]13/14[/td]

[td]14/15[/td]

[td]15/16[/td]

[td]16/17[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]1[/td]

[td]Rickie Lambert[/td]

[td]Graziano Pelle[/td]

[td]Shane Long[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]2[/td]

[td]Jay Rodriguez[/td]

[td]Shane Long[/td]

[td]Charlie Austin[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]3[/td]

[td]Emmanuel Mayuka[/td]

[td]Dani Osvaldo[/td]

[td]Jay Rodriguez[/td]

[td]Jay Rodriguez[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]4[/td]

[td]Billy Sharp[/td]

[td]Sam Gallagher[/td]

[td]Emmanuel Mayuka[/td]

[td]Charlie Austin[/td]

[td]Ryan Seager?[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]5[/td]

[td]Tadanari Lee[/td]

[td]Emmanuel Mayuka[/td]

[td]Ryan Seager[/td]

[td]Sam Gallagher?[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]6[/td]

[td][/td]

[td]Sam Gallagher[/td]

[td][/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

[table=width: 900, class: grid]

[tr]

[td]Season[/td]

[td]12/13[/td]

[td]13/14[/td]

[td]14/15[/td]

[td]15/16[/td]

[td]16/17[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Players Used Total[/td]

[td]30[/td]

[td]29[/td]

[td]36[/td]

[td]29[/td]

[td]n/a[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Senior Pros[/td]

[td]25[/td]

[td]21[/td]

[td]24[/td]

[td]19 (so far)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Academy Players[/td]

[td]5[/td]

[td]8[/td]

[td]12[/td]

[td]5[/td]

[td]n/a[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Academy in Matchday Squad[/td]

[td]68[/td]

[td]156[/td]

[td]87[/td]

[td]65[/td]

[td]n/a[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Academy Appearances[/td]

[td]43[/td]

[td]113[/td]

[td]46[/td]

[td]48[/td]

[td]n/a[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Academy Starts[/td]

[td]26[/td]

[td]72[/td]

[td]25[/td]

[td]27[/td]

[td]n/a[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Academy Minutes[/td]

[td]2459[/td]

[td]6622[/td]

[td]2225[/td]

[td]2611[/td]

[td]n/a[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

Like a previous thread of mine, I defined a youth academy player as a player under the age of 21 at the first game of each respective season, i.e. Lallana never counts towards figures, and as of this season, JWP will no longer count towards figures. However, I’ve also factored in whether a player has yet to establish themselves in the first team (see Reed, Stephens, and Isgrove for the 16/17 season). Every player in the depth chart featured in the matchday squad at least once, save for two, but I believe those two (JRod and Gardos) were in the reckoning for those seasons, but suffered setbacks, hence inclusion. Anyway, they’re in italics, as are a few others who have been included for making minimal matchday appearances, but under specific circumstances (Gaston’s loan move to Hull, Taider falling off the face of the Earth, etc). Finally, there’s nalt too scientific about the ordering of the depth chart. Don’t get your knickers in a twist. For example, advanced midfielder field, I mimicked how I’d presented defenders, i.e. central (Davis), left (Tadic), right (Mane)...I’m not venerating, although I am thereafter.

Edited 20 July, 2016 by Donatello

saintadjg · 19 July, 2016

It's a tough balancing act for me.when Pelle was in his 10 game woeful streak last season Keoman should have given one of our youngster a shot.lets face it they couldn't possibly have done any worse and would have got valuable mins under their belts.a nice mix of giving kids a chance and some young prospects brought in to sell on after a couple of good seasons.as we did under Poch.

angelman · 19 July, 2016

To summarise, I’m basically playing Devil’s Advocate with the following Qs,

1 - Would you be happy with the perception of the club being that of an academy club?

2 - Would you accept an attitude of almost positive discrimination towards youth to achieve this?

3 - Looking at the depth chart for 16/17, where do you think we need to improve and/or add depth? (the answer of which will obviously depend heavily on your answers to 1 and 2)

4 - Do you see any academy players having breakthrough years? If so, who?

1. Absolutely. I guess though it rather depends how you view footie and what you want from it. Those supporters of clubs who could/can win PL and feature heavily in CL year in year out, probably just want to spend spend spend. That's not us. The sad thing about the PL is that there is little incentive to grow your own players. I think even one of the bods on talkSport talked about it with reference to managers like Guardiola, Mourinhon, Conte, Koeman, who have absolutely no interest in bringing kids through. I hope we are going to be different as it also for some reason brings the players closer to the fans. Not players arriving for the pay check.

Without wanting to be revisionist, I always said that the one down side of Koeman's results was the lack of academy players. It was fantastic watching the kids under MP and I would love that to happen again, so long as they were able. It seems such a shame that so many clubs just buy in finished articles and don't want to do the hard work and create gems. Man Utd might be better than some as they have one or two that often appear but will Mourinho continue that? Arsenal often buy in when fairly developed. Chelsea and Man City - what's the point of their academies? Spending hundreds and hundreds of millions doesn't exactly leave much room for developing players.

2. No. I think that a happy balance is more than realistic, but has to based on merit.

3. Need to improve/add depth? I think it has to be naturally done, cream rising to the top etc. I guess that the academy could recruit differently with more polished players, but that is rather buying in success rather than working at it and creating success. Hooking up with another club (Walsall was mentioned?) would be good to give rising academy players a chance to get good game time under their belt and could separate the wheat from the chaff.

4. No idea!! Reed, Hesketh, Gallagher, Olomola? More a hope that these could, rather than thinking they could as I'm really not sure how good they are. Is Clasie much better than Reed? Gallagher - I hope for but suspect maybe not yet. He's the same height as Pelle, so could if he upped his game offer us something very useful. Hesketh has talent, but I suspect he might not be ready this year. Olomoloa seems to be ever improving, but again, can he make the step up?

Edited 19 July, 2016 by angelman

EBS1980 · 19 July, 2016

For me it's simple, if the youngsters are good enough they should be given a chance to be in the squad. If they aren't then we shouldn't just put them in there for the sake of it.

Donatello · 19 July, 2016

3. Need to improve/add depth? I think it has to be naturally done, cream rising to the top etc. I guess that the academy could recruit differently with more polished players, but that is rather buying in success rather than working at it and creating success. Hooking up with another club (Walsall was mentioned?) would be good to give rising academy players a chance to get good game time under their belt and could separate the wheat from the chaff.

Sorry, I meant first team depth/improvement (although, perhaps you got the gist of that and my brain is simply too clogged with Southampton player names to understand anything other than Southampton player names - most likely). At any rate, I'll clarify in original post. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts though

Edited 19 July, 2016 by Donatello

Lallana's Left Peg · 19 July, 2016

1 - Would you be happy with the perception of the club being that of an academy club?

Yes

2 - Would you accept an attitude of almost positive discrimination towards youth to achieve this?

Yes

3 - Looking at the depth chart for 16/17, where do you think we need to improve and/or add depth? (the answer of which will obviously depend heavily on your answers to 1 and 2)

We need another young prospect at centre-half and an attacking midfielder. Maybe a striker depending on how we think the fitness of Austin and Jay Rod is.

4 - Do you see any academy players having breakthrough years? If so, who?

Into the first team? Unlikely. Maybe Jack Stephens. If Callum Slattery can stay injury free then his talent could see him go far.

Chris27687 · 19 July, 2016

Great post. It's quite interesting to see the effect of Koeman on the youth and clear to see why Les & Co where not keen on that approach.

In order to survive and thrive we have to take a more long term approach and develop players - we don't have enough pull (Financial or Size) to attract the very best so we have to develop players or buy people past their best that can still do a job. The second way which a lot of the bottom half prem teams do and it is pretty risky imo.

Whilst it is a little bit Arsenal/Tottenham this approach and won't work at the very top level - we certainly can still win trophies (Europa League, League Cup - maybe FA Cup) with this approach and play in Europe, and i'm pretty sure that would make everyone pretty happy here.

Donatello · 19 July, 2016

3 - Looking at the depth chart for 16/17, where do you think we need to improve and/or add depth? (the answer of which will obviously depend heavily on your answers to 1 and 2)
We need another young prospect at centre-half and an attacking midfielder. Maybe a striker depending on how we think the fitness of Austin and Jay Rod is.

4 - Do you see any academy players having breakthrough years? If so, who?
Into the first team? Unlikely. Maybe Jack Stephens. If Callum Slattery can stay injury free then his talent could see him go far.

No goalkeeper then?

Also, reference question 4, yeah, first-team...as with Angleman, thanks for highlighting any lack of clarity (sincerely), I'll amend the original post now.

eelpie · 19 July, 2016

For me it's simple, if the youngsters are good enough they should be given a chance to be in the squad. If they aren't then we shouldn't just put them in there for the sake of it.

Saintadjg had an interesting point. During Pelle's bad spell there may have been an opportunity to bring in an academy striker, perhaps around 70th minutes. But who?

It was Long, our super sub at the time who benefited, and no-one can argue with that

Nordic Saint · 19 July, 2016

We need a very good striker to replace both Pelle and Mane and their goals. We already had Rodriguez and Austin in the squad last season so I certainly don't consider them to be replacements and Nathan Redmond is a midfielder, not a striker. Sadly, the odds look stacked against Rodrguez ever again being the player he was before his injury and Austin's injury problems last season soon explained his cheap transfer fee and why no other club wanted him. They could both well be players whose best years are over because of injuries. I also don't see any defensive midfielder in the squad now as good as Wanyama.

I was very disapointed by what I saw of our youngsters last season in U21 and Youth Cup games and their first team appearances. I don't know why we've kept Gallagher. About the only one who seemed to make progress last season was Alfie Jones. All of the others, including Reed, Targett and our once most exciting prospect, Sims, seemed to regress. Since Dodd and Williams left, the Academy production line has stalled badly. If Puel is forced to play youth, our results will suffer and for what reason? So youngsters can be put in the shop window?.

To sum up, Redmond looks like a good replacement for Juanmi and Hojbjerg should be an improvement on Clasie, who I hope will follow Steckelenburg to Everton, but we still we need to buy very good replacements for Pelle, Mane and Wanyama. None of the youngsters look good enough to do that.

On the positive side, we still have most of the players left from the team which finished 6th last season. But, really we needed to keep all of them and then add a few more in order to have a squad strong enough to do well in both the Premier and Europa Leagues: a bit like Spurs have done this summer.

angelman · 19 July, 2016

Saintadjg had an interesting point. During Pelle's bad spell there may have been an opportunity to bring in an academy striker, perhaps around 70th minutes. But who?

It was Long, our super sub at the time who benefited, and no-one can argue with that

With Poch, it was Gallagher. Since Poch he couldn't get in the squad with RK, and was sent out on loan where he couldn't get into the MK Dons team on a regular basis. Squad x24, started x 11, subbed in x7, 90 mins x2, on bench x11, goals x0, assists x2. Not great reading.

In the games that he played, MKD scored 9 goals. That includes 4 in the first game of the season (where he had both assists). He was on the pitch in 2 other matches when MKD scored - a last min sub vs Cardiff and a 15 min appearance vs Forest. In the games he didn't play, they scored 10. So a striker who doesn't score goals in a team that can't score.

Charlie Wayman · 19 July, 2016

Bit of both needed really.

New Forest Steve · 19 July, 2016

I'd like to see our young prospects being loaned out to european clubs like Chelsea do. Surely they would learn so much more than they would spending a year at Swindon and the like

VectisSaint · 19 July, 2016

With Poch, it was Gallagher. Since Poch he couldn't get in the squad with RK, and was sent out on loan where he couldn't get into the MK Dons team on a regular basis. Squad x24, started x 11, subbed in x7, 90 mins x2, on bench x11, goals x0, assists x2. Not great reading.

In the games that he played, MKD scored 9 goals. That includes 4 in the first game of the season (where he had both assists). He was on the pitch in 2 other matches when MKD scored - a last min sub vs Cardiff and a 15 min appearance vs Forest. In the games he didn't play, they scored 10. So a striker who doesn't score goals in a team that can't score.

Two words - growth spurt.

nta786 · 19 July, 2016

I'd like to see our young prospects being loaned out to european clubs like Chelsea do. Surely they would learn so much more than they would spending a year at Swindon and the like

Hmmm but correct me if I am wrong but have any of Chelsea's foreign loanees gone on to star for them?

Yes I know their stanard is higher and they expect to be fighting for title but has any made the bench regularly at least too?

John D · 19 July, 2016

If we had signed Austin now rather than in January would people still say we need a Pelle replacement? I'm not sure people were desperate for an extra striker back in Jan so perhaps the timing has altered people's view?

For me if both him and J Rod can stay fit then we are fine up front. But I am not confident they both can hence why I'd love one more

angelman · 19 July, 2016

Two words - growth spurt.

True, but that can work both ways. Wasn't that always a concern with Shaw and that there were concerns that his body, post spurt, might not be a top athlete's one? (Plus obviously £30m helps make your mind up).

eelpie · 19 July, 2016

With Poch, it was Gallagher. Since Poch he couldn't get in the squad with RK, and was sent out on loan where he couldn't get into the MK Dons team on a regular basis. Squad x24, started x 11, subbed in x7, 90 mins x2, on bench x11, goals x0, assists x2. Not great reading.

In the games that he played, MKD scored 9 goals. That includes 4 in the first game of the season (where he had both assists). He was on the pitch in 2 other matches when MKD scored - a last min sub vs Cardiff and a 15 min appearance vs Forest. In the games he didn't play, they scored 10. So a striker who doesn't score goals in a team that can't score.

Yes, that's how to destroy a player's confidence, though was it destroyed for Gallagher before he was sent to MKD? I hope things are better for him, because he has shown promise, and it does take time.

RK saying that our academy players' weren't good enough didn't help the cause of our academy either. I'm not sure in what context he said that. It's a difficult one. Since we have an academy there needs to be a workable pathway towards the first team, even though only the best will make it all the way, and some may leave and still do well elsewhere (I'm thinking of Phillips way back). But we have to give it a serious go imo. That is what we have always been about, nurturing our youth.

Donatello · 20 July, 2016

Something of note to me is the number of senior pros/registered players we have on the books for this season so far, 19 (including JWP because he has to be registered now). We've never gone into a Prem season with fewer that 21, so whilst I may be stating the obvious, it's clear, despite the hushed tones emanating from the club, that there's more business to be done - unless Reed intends for us to go into our biggest season (no. of games) with the smallest squad we've had.

My presumption would be a new GK, AM, and RB (because that's what Puel wants). Definitely can't see another central midfielder. Definitely can't see another forward. Personally, I'd be fine with that, since it'd allow some opportunities for Hesketh and the like (although I think it's natural to be a little apprehensive about the fitness of JRod and Austin - not that either would be necessarily starting.).

Edited 20 July, 2016 by Donatello

The9 · 20 July, 2016

Great post. It's quite interesting to see the effect of Koeman on the youth and clear to see why Les & Co where not keen on that approach.

To be fair we'd just sold Shaw who played practically every match, and Chambers who played a lot at the start of the season, so the stats would be expected to reflect a drop off irrespective of Koeman's attitude to youth in the first season. Just because there are academy prospects available doesn't mean they'll be good enough irrespective of opportunities and that's something we need to be mindful of.

verlaine1979 · 20 July, 2016

To be fair we'd just sold Shaw who played practically every match, and Chambers who played a lot at the start of the season, so the stats would be expected to reflect a drop off irrespective of Koeman's attitude to youth in the first season. Just because there are academy prospects available doesn't mean they'll be good enough irrespective of opportunities and that's something we need to be mindful of.

Yup, don't these stats basically show that Koeman was no more or less a champion of the academy than Adkins, and that Poch's full season with Shaw and Chambers is just an outlier?

The9 · 20 July, 2016

Hmmm but correct me if I am wrong but have any of Chelsea's foreign loanees gone on to star for them?
Yes I know their stanard is higher and they expect to be fighting for title but has any made the bench regularly at least too?

Thibaut Courtois seems like the obvious example, but he was already proven before they loaned him to Atletico.

Kurt Zouma is in on a technicality as he was loaned back to St Etienne after a £12m transfer, but he was already 19 when that happened.

They're at least as interested in hoovering up players who'd improve their rivals as they are actually developing those players. I don't think it's a stretch to say that ALL academy talents will be better off at Saints than Chelsea irrespective of their position. If they were going to bring anyone through the last 6 months of last season was the perfect opportunity for them - Bertrand Traore and Ruben Loftus-Cheek are about as close as they got, and they're by no means established, and certainly not at the level Chelsea WANT to be at, yet.

The9 · 20 July, 2016

Yup, don't these stats basically show that Koeman was no more or less a champion of the academy than Adkins, and that Poch's full season with Shaw and Chambers is just an outlier?

It's very difficult to determine causality, but the way I look at it is "if Koeman had been in charge when Pochettino gave Shaw and Chambers their debuts, would they have made their debuts?". The Cuco Martina signing is the one that maybe makes me think no on that front, but it's difficult to know for sure. Pochettino for his part certainly didn't mind picking young players at Spurs either.

The9 · 20 July, 2016

If we had signed Austin now rather than in January would people still say we need a Pelle replacement? I'm not sure people were desperate for an extra striker back in Jan so perhaps the timing has altered people's view?

For me if both him and J Rod can stay fit then we are fine up front. But I am not confident they both can hence why I'd love one more

If we'd signed Austin now people would be questioning his ability to play as many games as Pelle did last season (assuming Austin's injury record remained the same as it did with Saints for the past 6 months), so I can see why an extra striker might be something we'd need to consider.

To me it seems to show a move back to the attitude at the end of 2013/14 when we gave Gallagher a run when I don't think he was really showing anything that would make people think he was a good enough striker, and that team was still good enough for 8th anyway. We might be looking at consciously leaving gaps so there are opportunities to step up.

Academy Pathway vs Transfer Business

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