Safe standing

[Yorkshire Saint]

I would love to see this happen at St Mary's.

Left side - Milton Road 80's and 90's - legendary days

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/36816657

[rooney]

Not for me I am afraid. I prefer to be comfortable and sit down, I can see all game without interruption so lets keep seating in the Chapel and if it is permitted elsewhere so be it. The majority of supporters would prefer to leave things as they are as we do no wish to go backwards.

[niceandfriendly]

Not for me I am afraid. I prefer to be comfortable and sit down, I can see all game without interruption so lets keep seating in the Chapel and if it is permitted elsewhere so be it. The majority of supporters would prefer to leave things as they are as we do no wish to go backwards.

 

Well it wouldn't be the entire stadium so don't worry you'll still be able to sit and do your crossword, and it wouldn't be going backwards would it? Terraces would be going backwards, this is safe standing, a clear progression.

[Yorkshire Saint]

Well it wouldn't be the entire stadium so don't worry you'll still be able to sit and do your crossword, and it wouldn't be going backwards would it? Terraces would be going backwards, this is safe standing, a clear progression.

 

 

Agreed .. It is a logical response to both needs.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Not for me I am afraid. I prefer to be comfortable and sit down, I can see all game without interruption so lets keep seating in the Chapel and if it is permitted elsewhere so be it. The majority of supporters would prefer to leave things as they are as we do no wish to go backwards.

 

Think you are very wrong and smug.

There are a lot of kids out there who can't afford seats. Safe standing areas sensibly priced would help bring football back to the masses.

Not saying you should be forced from your comfy seat just a choice would be nice.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

In a stadium structure designed for seating I wonder if shorter fans who happen to find themselves standing behind taller ones would be able to even see the pitch? In the days of terracing you could often move about quite freely and find a suitable spot for yourself - children were sometimes even passed down to the front - but you can't really do that with the 'safe standing' concept can you?

 

That freedom to move was the best - and worst - thing about the old terraces. That frankly is never coming back post Hillsbrough, so perhaps we should just leave things as they are now.

[Saint-Fred]

Standing already happens permanently in sections of the ground and it doesn't seem to be a significant issue where people are behind tall people and can't see? You do see kids standing on seats though which would be resolved by proper standing areas.

[Katalinic]

Think you are very wrong and smug.

There are a lot of kids out there who can't afford seats. Safe standing areas sensibly priced would help bring football back to the masses.

Not saying you should be forced from your comfy seat just a choice would be nice.

 

Why would any club spend money on creating a safe standing area to generate less income? I know you yearn the bygone days but football for the masses are long gone I am afraid.

[spyinthesky]

Bearing in mind that at least 20% of spectators at St Marys stand throughout the game, it seems sensible to consider the safe standing option.

 

However unless this increases capacity (which I think it may do based on the German model) the ticket price is likely to remain the same

[eurosaint]

Why would any club spend money on creating a safe standing area to generate less income? I know you yearn the bygone days but football for the masses are long gone I am afraid.

 

You get more people standing in the same area than you do seated so even with cheaper entrance fees there is no reason for loss of income, quite possible also that you would generate more at the gate as well as programmes, food, drink etc....

[Katalinic]

You get more people standing in the same area than you do seated so even with cheaper entrance fees there is no reason for loss of income, quite possible also that you would generate more at the gate as well as programmes, food, drink etc....

 

You dont get more people standing as the area is the equivalent of one seat. The extra income is a myth otherwise we would practically give away tickets for games we dont sell out. Im not against safe standing at all however I cant see the club making a decision which might well improve the atmosphere but at the expense of income and actually which would generate a cost.

[rooney]

Think you are very wrong and smug.

There are a lot of kids out there who can't afford seats. Safe standing areas sensibly priced would help bring football back to the masses.

Not saying you should be forced from your comfy seat just a choice would be nice.

 

Not smug at all Fitzhugh, simply elderly and vertically challenged and your kids would not be able to see either as they all could not go down to the front as we used to. No time to do crosswords at SMS either, with all he excitement that goes on there these days.

[LGTL]

You dont get more people standing as the area is the equivalent of one seat. The extra income is a myth otherwise we would practically give away tickets for games we dont sell out. Im not against safe standing at all however I cant see the club making a decision which might well improve the atmosphere but at the expense of income and actually which would generate a cost.

 

I would happily pay more to stand.

[Wurzel]

Not smug at all Fitzhugh, simply elderly & vertically challenged and your kids would not be able to see either as they all could not go down to the front as we used to. No time to do crosswords at SMS either, with all he excitement that goes on there these days.

 

Do ManU know you're posting on our forum Wayne ?

[Sour Mash]

Not smug at all Fitzhugh, simply elderly and vertically challenged and your kids would not be able to see either as they all could not go down to the front as we used to. No time to do crosswords at SMS either, with all he excitement that goes on there these days.

I'm not sure what point you think you are arguing against. I don't think anyone has suggested the whole ground becomes standing room only. At least 1/4 of St Marys stands all game, and our away support stands all game, every game pretty much.

 

If anything, those keen to sit and have a good view should be the one's campaigning for safe standing more than anyone - it would make it more likely for the seats to actually be used for sitting down.

[lloydie]

In a stadium structure designed for seating I wonder if shorter fans who happen to find themselves standing behind taller ones would be able to even see the pitch? In the days of terracing you could often move about quite freely and find a suitable spot for yourself - children were sometimes even passed down to the front - but you can't really do that with the 'safe standing' concept can you?

 

That freedom to move was the best - and worst - thing about the old terraces. That frankly is never coming back post Hillsbrough, so perhaps we should just leave things as they are now.

 

again as said before, if you aren't that tall you can always continue to buy a seat in the seated area.

[angelman]

I asked my 9yo whether he would like to sit or stand, and having never stood at a match, said that he would prefer to sit (in Kingsland with me). Found that rather sad that a generation have not experienced the terraces. I've got to the age where I prefer to sit, but I am very pro safe standing. Now, last season, I bought some tickets behind the goals in Northam when NUFC returned their allocation. He loved it and I think he would def be up for standing.

 

I think that you can get anything from 40% - 80% more people in. If that is the case, I would expect the ticket prices to reflect that. It would be hugely popular. As already mentioned, people already stand (although that is strictly forbidden in the Kingsland, and I often get told by over officious stewards to sit down as I perch on the back of my seat (as I at the back with the TV gantry behind me I don't get in the way of anyone)) and it is a fact (apparently) that safe standing is much much safer than people standing in all seaters.

 

I would make half the Northam standing (allowing both home and away to stand), and maybe a quarter or less of the Chapel to do the same. Why do we have safe standing anyway? The reason seemingly is Hillsborough and the Taylor Report, but that was down to **** poor stewardship and there have been tens/hundreds of thousands of games where there was no problem. But the real reason was hooliganism. Is that still relevant now?

[VectisSaint]

Think you are very wrong and smug.

There are a lot of kids out there who can't afford seats. Safe standing areas sensibly priced would help bring football back to the masses.

Not saying you should be forced from your comfy seat just a choice would be nice.

Thinking that the introduction of safe standing would also mean cheaper tickets is naive at best. If anything I could imagine clubs charging more to compensate for the additional investment. Also can imagine that the safe standing areas would quickly sell out to the 20-40s age group and kids would not get a look in. I'm very much in favour of safe standing though. Even at my advanced age, stood through the whole games at Man City and Arsenal last season (with no stewards even attempting to ask us to sit), and do prefer it generally.

[suewhistle]

You dont get more people standing as the area is the equivalent of one seat.

 

Typically in Germany where they have it you do and it permits cheaper season tickets.

 

I've got an age where when I jump up when we score I sometimes feel cramps in my legs but haven't yet got to such an old fart stage that I can't see the advantages. Accepting that on my rare away trips I may well have to stand and it's no great shakes for me.

[buctootim]

You dont get more people standing as the area is the equivalent of one seat. The extra income is a myth otherwise we would practically give away tickets for games we dont sell out. Im not against safe standing at all however I cant see the club making a decision which might well improve the atmosphere but at the expense of income and actually which would generate a cost.

 

Typically in Germany where they have it you do and it permits cheaper season tickets.

 

I've got an age where when I jump up when we score I sometimes feel cramps in my legs but haven't yet got to such an old fart stage that I can't see the advantages. Accepting that on my rare away trips I may well have to stand and it's no great shakes for me.

 

I thought all safe standing was like the pictures below - basically a fold up seat and a rail in front to stop crowd surges - so it would take up the same space as a normal seat. Are there different versions?

 

[suewhistle]

Various versions apparently..

 

http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safe-standing/what-does-safe-standing-look-like/

 

More to the point: http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-case-for-safe-standing/case-for-3

[Micky]

It kind of annoys me a little when people quote Hillsborough as a reason for us never returning to standing within a football stadium. The legacy of the 96 is that we now have safe all-seater stadiums, which I respect. However, with all due respect to the 96, their families and friends, I do believe that a more apt and lasting legacy would be the return to 'safe standing sections' within stadiums, where lessons have been learned, and this sort of tragedy cannot happen again.

 

2 of the fundamental failings that led to the Hillsborough deaths were poor stewarding and control when fans entered the ground, and the fact that they were effectively penned in and could not 'overflow' onto the pitch as the situation worsened. Both of those issues, have been addressed with modernization of stadiums, thus if overcrowding were to occur it would be much easier to take action to prevent injury.

 

Personally, I'm in the old codgers crowd and would probably always want to sit, however I would really like to see areas where standing was allowed in a controlled and safe environment.

[SW5 SAINT]

You get more people standing in the same area than you do seated so even with cheaper entrance fees there is no reason for loss of income, quite possible also that you would generate more at the gate as well as programmes, food, drink etc....

 

Yeh, I remember it, People crammed together. People ****ing in beer bottles. You would think the recent Hillsborough inquest verdict would remind folk had bad it actually was. People should get over it. Hopefully those days so called good old days are gone forever. What ever next, standing at the cinema!?

[jamesfp1]

Yeh, I remember it, People crammed together. People ****ing in beer bottles. You would think the recent Hillsborough inquest verdict would remind folk had bad it actually was. People should get over it. Hopefully those days so called good old days are gone forever. What ever next, standing at the cinema!?

The subject is safe-standing, not the old terraces.

[Cumbria Saint]

I doubt whether it would make much difference in practice unless it increased capacity. Around 20% already stand, mainly in The Northam, and I can't see that percentage increasing if standing became 'official'. In fact it might even have the opposite effect with more rigorous patrolling of the non-standing areas resulting in fewer standing place overall. That would be a shame.

 

At 62 I still much prefer the atmosphere when standing. For some reason it feels as though I am helping to create the excitement of the day rather than simply sitting down being 'entertained' at another 'sporting experience'. But each to his own.

[100%Red&White]

Yeh, I remember it, People crammed together. People ****ing in beer bottles. You would think the recent Hillsborough inquest verdict would remind folk had bad it actually was. People should get over it. Hopefully those days so called good old days are gone forever. What ever next, standing at the cinema!?

 

As jamesfp1 points out, the 'good old days' are long gone, this is entirely different and far safer that the current situation of standing behind seats. I find it amazing some people just can't see the bleedin' obvious. Everyone would have a choice.

 

 

At 62 I still much prefer the atmosphere when standing. For some reason it feels as though I am helping to create the excitement of the day rather than simply sitting down being 'entertained' at another 'sporting experience'. But each to his own.

 

The atmosphere is massively effected by 'supporters' sitting. You see it at stadiums around the country all the time, particularly noticeable in the Kingsland where we sit. The noise builds just before kick-off with everyone standing or taking their seats but once the game starts most just settle down in their seats and are only stirred occasionally. For the vast majority of the match the only 'support' is coming from the persistent standers in the Northam and Itchen corners.

[Kenilworthy]

What we have at the moment is a lunatic situation with all-seater stadiums in which a fair proportion of people stand - and in the away section it is pretty much 100 percent as there is no choice if you want to see. My view is that standing in seating areas, especially where they are steeply banked, is actually far more dangerous than standing on terraces that were designed for it. Sooner or later there is going to be a serious accident with people toppling over. But as anyone who has ever spoken to the authorities about this will verify they just bury their heads in the sands and come back with the stock answer - 'we have all-seater stadiums, they are safe'. I don't want to stop people standing, far from it. I would like them to have the choice. But equally I would like to have the choice of sitting down. My father-in-law has been a Saints supporter since the early 50s and was a regular away fan. But now he hardly goes because he physically can't stand for a whole game - how can that be fair?

[a1ex2001]

Hillsborough was nothing to do with people standing it was a fookin great fence what killed em!

[SW5 SAINT]

Hillsborough was nothing to do with people standing it was a fookin great fence what killed em!

 

I still don't think that disaster would have happened if they had all been sat down!

[alehouseboys]

I still don't think that disaster would have happened if they had all been sat down!

 

It would have if too ma

[alehouseboys]

I still don't think that disaster would have happened if they had all been sat down!

 

I'll try again...

 

It still would have if too many people were trying to cram in there with no escape for the ones at the front. I'm being facetious, just pointing out it was the fences that caused fatalities, not terracing. Today's safe standing would be among the safest parts of stadiums, standing in seated areas, that you won't stop, is potentially an accident waiting to happen.

[the saint in winchester]

In a stadium structure designed for seating I wonder if shorter fans who happen to find themselves standing behind taller ones would be able to even see the pitch? In the days of terracing you could often move about quite freely and find a suitable spot for yourself - children were sometimes even passed down to the front - but you can't really do that with the 'safe standing' concept can you?

 

That freedom to move was the best - and worst - thing about the old terraces. That frankly is never coming back post Hillsbrough, so perhaps we should just leave things as they are now.

 

Now you're talking. My Dad used to take me and slip me through to the front - "excuse me, mister" - then I could stand on the milk crate. Safe standing, safe from the oceans of **** running at shoe level. John Sydenham, Ron Davies, them were the days.

[SW5 SAINT]

I'll try again...

 

It still would have if too many people were trying to cram in there with no escape for the ones at the front. I'm being facetious, just pointing out it was the fences that caused fatalities, not terracing. Today's safe standing would be among the safest parts of stadiums, standing in seated areas, that you won't stop, is potentially an accident waiting to happen.

 

If they all had tickets and allocated seats like today, that incident would never have happened - fact.

[alehouseboys]

If they all had tickets and allocated seats like today, that incident would never have happened - fact.

 

You're right, exactly how safe standing would work. Facfty- fact.

[brmbrm]

This is a bizarre thread. The idea is that standing could be OPTIONAL and not COMPULSORY. You want to sit, then sit. You want to stay home do the gardening, do it. You want to stand, then you can.

 

As for whether there is more money to be made from seating or standing punters then surely leave that up to the clubs to figure out?

 

Me: I enjoyed standing years ago, now when I go I have a seat but stand most of the time, mainly because the people in front stand. Plus its more enjoyable. So if the standers go in the standing section then us old farts can choose whether to sit or stand.

 

Its not like this is a binding referendum on everyone....

[St_Tel49]

You dont get more people standing as the area is the equivalent of one seat. The extra income is a myth otherwise we would practically give away tickets for games we dont sell out. Im not against safe standing at all however I cant see the club making a decision which might well improve the atmosphere but at the expense of income and actually which would generate a cost.

 

To me the issue is not about increasing/ decreasing crowds/ revenues. It is about choice. And it has to be safer to stand in a safe standing area than in a seated area.(the Northam!)

[alehouseboys]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10652484/premier-league-to-discuss-safe-standing-next-week

 

http://www.fsf.org.uk/latest-news/view/premier-league-clubs-to-discuss-safe-standing

 

Good news...for many of us...and another step in the right direction.

[Shance]

I really don't understand why this is still such a big thing. It's been proven in so many different ways. The powers that be need to get over the Hillsborough disaster, stuff like that isn't going to happen again.

[DuncanRG]

I really don't understand why this is still such a big thing. It's been proven in so many different ways. The powers that be need to get over the Hillsborough disaster, stuff like that isn't going to happen again.

 

In fairness, delays aren't only down to the powers that be. Some Hillsborough families are set against it, which makes it politically difficult for Liverpool and indeed the government, should a law change be required.

[Golden Balls]

In fairness, delays aren't only down to the powers that be. Some Hillsborough families are set against it, which makes it politically difficult for Liverpool and indeed the government, should a law change be required.

 

This is why I can't see it happening. They are too scared of the backlash from those families who will be unlikely to allow this to happen without a very public and shouty fight.

[Charlie Wayman]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_standing

 

The Austrian Rail Seats idea seems a good compromise. I can't see any advantage as the terrace widths will not be ncreased and people standing shoulder to shoulder will take up the same amount of space as people sitting down shoulder-to-shoulder, as you do at SMS. How then do you squeeze in more people?

 

Are there really that many people who would want to stand up for two hours rather than sit down? In some ways using the Austrian model, fans look even more constrained than they are now. Is that really what proponents want.

 

Think this through carefully chaps you don't always get what you wish for. This is not 1970 and modern H & S regs won't allow you to relive your old memories.

 

I am dead against it so you know my position.

[alehouseboys]

Think this through carefully chaps you don't always get what you wish for

 

But...you'll have a choice.

 

Dead for it myself.

[RedWillie]

Excellent. I'd love a good old knees up mother brown where you end up 30 yards from where you started. Happy days.

[adrian lord]

The majority of supporters would prefer to leave things as they are as we do no wish to go backwards.

 

Have you conducted a representative survey?

[for_heaven's_Saint]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_standing

 

The Austrian Rail Seats idea seems a good compromise. I can't see any advantage as the terrace widths will not be ncreased and people standing shoulder to shoulder will take up the same amount of space as people sitting down shoulder-to-shoulder, as you do at SMS. How then do you squeeze in more people?

 

Are there really that many people who would want to stand up for two hours rather than sit down? In some ways using the Austrian model, fans look even more constrained than they are now. Is that really what proponents want.

 

Think this through carefully chaps you don't always get what you wish for. This is not 1970 and modern H & S regs won't allow you to relive your old memories.

 

I am dead against it so you know my position.

 

Pretty much the whole of the Northam, a lot of Kingsland North and Itchen North stand up anyway. I don't remember the last time I sat down during a game (except at half time).

 

As for the Hillsboroigh worries, it's really not comparable now is it? For starters the electronic turnstiles mean that you can only get into the section your ticket is for. I don't really understand why people are against it. No one is going to be forced to stand if they don't want to.

[adrian lord]

Hillsborough was nothing to do with people standing it was a fookin great fence what killed em!

 

It was the police letting thousands into the wrong, already packed pen, with no escape valve due to the fencing.

Edited 13 November, 2016 by adrian lord

[nta786]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_standing

 

The Austrian Rail Seats idea seems a good compromise. I can't see any advantage as the terrace widths will not be ncreased and people standing shoulder to shoulder will take up the same amount of space as people sitting down shoulder-to-shoulder, as you do at SMS. How then do you squeeze in more people?

 

i do understand this position tbf, especially with a one-third obese population, does it make any difference having standing or sitting, at least with sitting there is a choice for fans.

 

however having said that, my father does always say that terraces etc was what made english football great, so if young/loud fans, who are the ones who stand in Northam can make our support louder, all the better

[St_Tel49]

Yeh, I remember it, People crammed together. People ****ing in beer bottles. You would think the recent Hillsborough inquest verdict would remind folk had bad it actually was. People should get over it. Hopefully those days so called good old days are gone forever. What ever next, standing at the cinema!?

I think that you need to qualify this with the word "then" as in "how bad it was then". But to remain stuck in a time warp that assumes that nothing has changed in Stadium construction, technology and management is just being obstructive for the sake of being obstructive. I would challenge you to explain how a Hillsborough could recur in a stadium constructed along the lines shown in a post above. In truth the current situation where people stand without there being a barrier is actually more hazardous. They may be breaking the law but it is happening in every stadium every week and there is little in practical terms that the stewards can do about it The obvious solution is safe standing - and it is safe. FWIW I have no desire to stand but I believe that those who enjoy their football more standing should have that choice

[Shance]

In fairness, delays aren't only down to the powers that be. Some Hillsborough families are set against it, which makes it politically difficult for Liverpool and indeed the government, should a law change be required.

 

Fair enough but if so then that's a real shame. The amount of rules and regulations that have come out because of that disaster surely shows them that the authorities don't want a repeat? It's pretty safe to be at a football match nowadays. Crushes aren't going to happen with the safe standing and the amount of stewards at games now.

[Matthew Le God]

It is odd the top two tiers had terraces ruled out, but for example Exeter in League 2 were still allowed this...