What is the talent pipeline like?

[mattyd]

Ronald has been criticised for not rating the Under 21 squad last season. Some players went out on loan to League 1 clubs but their feedback has not been great.

 

My question is. Who are the high talent players who will make our first team? Realistically, how many of them will end up in the Football League but not make the Prem?

 

We do not want to play youth for its own sake, do we?

[doddisalegend]

Ronald has been criticised for not rating the Under 21 squad last season. Some players went out on loan to League 1 clubs but their feedback has not been great.

 

My question is. Who are the high talent players who will make our first team? Realistically, how many of them will end up in the Football League but not make the Prem?

 

We do not want to play youth for its own sake, do we?

 

A little unfair in general our loan players did well in league 1 and 2 but struggled for game time in the championship.(a full run down on the O/S)

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/news/article/20160526-loan-watch-review-of-the-season-3125681.aspx

 

not that I'm saying that puts them in the frame as first team regulars just that most of them did make progress.

[disconnect]

Ronald has been criticised for not rating the Under 21 squad last season. Some players went out on loan to League 1 clubs but their feedback has not been great.

 

My question is. Who are the high talent players who will make our first team? Realistically, how many of them will end up in the Football League but not make the Prem?

 

We do not want to play youth for its own sake, do we?

 

It's looking increasingly like we do want this to be the case, and it's been documented in the past that we want something like 5+ academy products in each match day squad.

 

Always liked the look of Hesketh (reminds me of a young Lallana - possibly with better finishing), and think Reed will feature a bit more this campaign, possibly also Stephens - although likely behind VVD, Fonte, Gardos and Yoshida, so not sure how many chances there'll be there.

 

I thought a few of the loanees got rave reviews? Seem to remember Lloyd Isgrove getting a fair bit of praise and Jason McCarthy was voted either Player or Young Player of the year at Wycombe albeit in League 2.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Not much about in the U21's to get excited about. Lots of steady professionals but not a lot with the talent (or evident potential) to make a contribution to our first team at the level we compete at. For what it is worth I consider Reed a first team squad member.

 

Slattery is the one with all the talent from the U18's but he had a stop-start season last year and spent most of it injured. The other U18's aren't great but Alfie Jones made massive strides and played for the U21's several times.

 

The U16's I am less familiar with but it is said there is plenty of talent in there. Lets see how they get on at U18 level this season. The U18's are in desperate need for a talent injection.

[Colinjb]

I don't think we should be surprised by there being a lull in the talent being produced, we are in the period now where the kids that should have joined the club during our difficult time around administration in 2009 should be maturing and starting to break into the fringes of the first team. Naturally, there we other concerns at the time and that we still managed to produce players who can contribute at the level we were relegated to at the time is to our credit.

 

The real picture will emerge in the next two or three years when the lads who joined us at the start of the decade and our resurrection reach maturity.

[Giordano]

There used to be some scandal surrounding the calling up of young South American (often argentinian and brazilian)players to national squads who were not all that good but whose promotion to national squad immediately inflated transfer value / fee to the european market. The owners manager and others apparently "benefited" together over this arrangement.

 

The reason i mention it is that in a sense Saints can do the same thing nowadays because of Bale, Walcott, Lallana, Shaw, etc. Making the Saints first team squad as an 18 year old means you must be a good player just like making the brazil squad. But even if you are only average compared to your illustrious predecessors, (Calum Chambers is the most obvious example i can think of) you still benefit from the halo effect. Like the offspring of a thoroughbred you are very likely- but not guaranteed, to be a good player.

 

If Saints unearth a Bale every 10 years they can sell 9 Calum Chambers' at inflated prices in-between. But if they don't put these guys in the squad there is no-one to have the halo effect on and no potential transfers for saints down the line. Cynical i know. Practical yes.

[david in sweden]

it was a move in the right direction to get some out in loan last season, but there was an injury crisis in both U18 and U21 squads so that few had a chance to shine.

 

Integrating promising lads into a successful line-up is a good introduction, but the question remains - who do you want to drop from the first team when they are playing well , and there are already good alternatives (some internationals) sitting on the bench?

 

Names like; Harrison Reed, Jake Hesketh and Sam McQueen are often bandied around, as was Ryan Seager before his knee injury.

 

However, the real truth lies in the fact that the difference between U21 and the Prem. is often light years, and few of them are really anywhere near that standard

Previously Koeman only used youngsters sparingly, and then only in cases of injury crises. Managers want to play their best players, so it's upto the youngsters to impress.

 

It was mooted that during last season, that he stopped the process of having Academy / U21 players train with the first team(!)....so there wasn't much hope for anyone.

 

Claude Puel's philosophy is to bring on young players, and Nice (like some Dutch teams) were seldom " flush with cash" so younger talents were always encouraged.

 

There is also a sort of myth about Acdeamy graduates of the past (Walcott, Bale and Oxlade-Chamberlain) when we recall that they all looked good ..in the Championship.

 

Life in the Prem.world was very different and Bale had a nightmare first season with Spurs, and both the others found it difficult to set their seal in the Arsenal first team.

 

In time a few will get into first team, (noted JWP ..England U21 captain) is still not a regular starter in our first team, even though he has clocked over 100 apps.

.but as the saying goes ....come the day, come the man.

We may see our own " Marcus Rashford " appear next season, but it will even be harder for him to get a game - if he's up against Zlatan for a starting place.

[JakkoUK]

Also need to remember that it is going to be harder for the u21s to break into the first team now and even be given a chance, as it is too much of a risk considering the level we now play at and the demand for top results. The top 10 spot of the Prem is too unforgiving for blooding talent that takes a while to flourish and only works for that 1% that have the natural talent to jump into the deep end.

[waylander]

How would this board react if Puel played, say, Jack Stephens and Jason McCarthy in any early round of the League Cup and we lost because they had a 'mare?

[disconnect]

How would this board react if Puel played, say, Jack Stephens and Jason McCarthy in any early round of the League Cup and we lost because they had a 'mare?

 

They would probably love it and blame someone we had paid 10 million for, even if they had a decent game

[Mallagroth]

There used to be some scandal surrounding the calling up of young South American (often argentinian and brazilian)players to national squads who were not all that good but whose promotion to national squad immediately inflated transfer value / fee to the european market. The owners manager and others apparently "benefited" together over this arrangement.

 

The reason i mention it is that in a sense Saints can do the same thing nowadays because of Bale, Walcott, Lallana, Shaw, etc. Making the Saints first team squad as an 18 year old means you must be a good player just like making the brazil squad. But even if you are only average compared to your illustrious predecessors, (Calum Chambers is the most obvious example i can think of) you still benefit from the halo effect. Like the offspring of a thoroughbred you are very likely- but not guaranteed, to be a good player.

 

If Saints unearth a Bale every 10 years they can sell 9 Calum Chambers' at inflated prices in-between. But if they don't put these guys in the squad there is no-one to have the halo effect on and no potential transfers for saints down the line. Cynical i know. Practical yes.

 

This is one of the most genuinely interesting posts i've read on here in a while. Definitely something in the theory and the argument for 'carrying' each academy player for one or two games. Finding that 1% is only going to happen by playing them, and as you say we may get lucky and they have a good couple game and we are quids in.

[blair3]

Bale, Walcott, Chamberlain, Lallana all made it to the first team when we were in lower leagues and Shaw and Chambers when we were a lot further down the Premier League. We need to give young players opportunities, I can't understand why Reed was overlooked for the whole of last season as I have not seen him have a bad game for the first team. Stephens might not be on a par with VVD or Fonte but he might be up there with Yosida and Gardos if only he is given a chance, McCarthy possibly could push our current right backs in a year or so. I also really rate both Hesketh and McQueen. For me the key is, if they aren't going to feature for the first team they need to go to a higher standard of football than the lower leagues where they will get a chance to play so I would like to see all four, plus others go to Holland or Belgium as the Chelsea kids do. This will mean they play a much similar type of football as they would get in the Premier league and if they are successful will give the manager far more confidence to play them in the first team.

[Baird of the land]

How would this board react if Puel played, say, Jack Stephens and Jason McCarthy in any early round of the League Cup and we lost because they had a 'mare?

 

I'd say there would be a mixed reaction. Those who think like Koeman that first 11 should play every minute of every game would be annoyed, those that think that league cup in particular should be a great opportunity to blood a couple of youngsters alongside first teamers would be disappointed with the result but happy with the decision to give opportunity for academy products.

[Saint_clark]

Worth remembering youth players normally come from nowhere. Bale, Shaw, Ox, JWP, none were widely talked about as having huge potential before being in the first team.

I think we've got some very good talent tucked away that's going to surprise us.

[LeBenali]

Worth remembering youth players normally come from nowhere. Bale, Shaw, Ox, JWP, none were widely talked about as having huge potential before being in the first team.

I think we've got some very good talent tucked away that's going to surprise us.

 

Would have to disagree - at the very least Shaw was spoken about a couple of years before his debut.

 

 

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[Mallagroth]

Would have to disagree - at the very least Shaw was spoken about a couple of years before his debut.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Shaw, Reed, Chambers, Ward Prowse were all talked up. Shaw and Chambers got in down to a bit of luck because we desperately needed them both in at the time. Ward Prowse is where he was expected to be at his age with more to still come, Reed has been shut out by lack of opportunity from a host of fantastic midfielders that Saints have had over the last few years so we don't really know how he would fare. Under Poch when he did get a chance to play he looked very good.

[SuperSAINT]

Worth remembering youth players normally come from nowhere. Bale, Shaw, Ox, JWP, none were widely talked about as having huge potential before being in the first team.

I think we've got some very good talent tucked away that's going to surprise us.

 

The usual sign of potential greatness is they are fast-tracked through the youth ranks.

 

Bale / Ox / Theo made their debut's incredibly early on (Granted, lower down the leagues)

[ally_uk]

None otherwise Koeman would of bedded them in......

[Mowgli]

None otherwise Koeman would of bedded them in......

 

Firstly Koeman did not rubbish the academy. He simply pointed out that there were only one or two (at the time of the interview) that were ready for the first team. The problem was that the bar had been raised and that the opportunities for a pathway to the first team was becoming blocked by a bigger squad of older (and very talented) players. Koeman was happy with that. The club less so. I think this season, with seven players on the bench there is absolutely no reason why at least one youngster could not be included and played when it is safe to do so. You can watch a player all you like in training and U21 games but nothing replicates how they perform on the pitch with first team players in a competitive game.

[VectisSaint]

I think this season, with seven players on the bench there is absolutely no reason why at least one youngster could not be included and played when it is safe to do so. You can watch a player all you like in training and U21 games but nothing replicates how they perform on the pitch with first team players in a competitive game.

As far as I recall we had seven on the bench last season, so Koeman could have done this but he did not. There are clearly some players who would be capable of being on the bench for matches. Seager was close to being included more regularly before his injury, and with Juanmi gone there is scope for Seager to fill that berth. Olufela Olomola made the bench once even under Koeman, and he is only 19, so expect to see him at least start to make the matchday squad this season. Stephens is the obvious one and really it is debatable whether he is not better equipped than Gardos, he certainly ought to be pushing Gardos for the Fonte backup spot, which is where his destiny lies. Turnbull maybe still a year away, probably needs a year in the Championship or better still on Holland or France or similar, but then should be pushing Yoshida. A little surprised that McCarthy has gone on loan already to Walsall, can't really see that he is a worse option than Martina. Isgrove is an interesting one, probably will never be good enough for us in the PL, yet his confidence is massive at the moment and maybe Puel will give him a chance to break into the squad if he decides to stay rather than go to Barnsley full-time. Will Wood looked good until his injury, but probably needs a season loan before he will break through. Make or break for Dom Gape this season as he is no longer an u21, haven't really seen enough to make me think he will make the transition to PL though. Hesketh might make the squad, but still seems too light weight to me. Sad to say that I think Sam Gallagher will not make it, doesn't seem to have progressed for a couple of years now, but will make a good pro in the lower leagues. McQueen may be one that can step up (at least in terms of the squad), did well on loan. The real talents though are Alfie Jones, Jake Flanagan, Yan Valery, Callum Slattery and Jake Vokins, who are all somewhat younger and might be able to push for squad places occasionally this season, and may be the ones who will actually prove to be long term first team players rather than the older group. That said most of our illustrious academy graduates from the past were full backs/wingers where age and experience is less of a barrier. It takes longer for the likes of centre backs or strikers to make the grade (and keepers of course). As things stand Gazzanigga is now our #2, I know he came from Gillingham but has has been with our development squad now a number of years and must be about ready to at least be the regular #2.

 

Problem this season is that unless we get a kind draw in the FA Cup there aren't likely to be any "easy" games to try out a few of the youngsters in match scenarios (enter the League Cup at late round again due to Europa and through to the Europa group stage). Maybe if we have already qualified or conversely not qualified match days 5/6 of the Europa may be an opportunity.

[Mowgli]

Good analysis from VectisSaint but one thing I would like to challenge is the view on Sam Gallagher. He was close to first team football a couple of seasons back and then suffered number of setbacks including injury and 'growing to quick' He has now come back really strong and looked fantastic for the U21s toward the end of the season. I really would not be surprised to see him get a breakthrough in pre season and put himself in the reckoning. A sort of Pelle with pace...

[Toadhall Saint]

As far as I recall we had seven on the bench last season, so Koeman could have done this but he did not. There are clearly some players who would be capable of being on the bench for matches. Seager was close to being included more regularly before his injury, and with Juanmi gone there is scope for Seager to fill that berth. Olufela Olomola made the bench once even under Koeman, and he is only 19, so expect to see him at least start to make the matchday squad this season. Stephens is the obvious one and really it is debatable whether he is not better equipped than Gardos, he certainly ought to be pushing Gardos for the Fonte backup spot, which is where his destiny lies. Turnbull maybe still a year away, probably needs a year in the Championship or better still on Holland or France or similar, but then should be pushing Yoshida. A little surprised that McCarthy has gone on loan already to Walsall, can't really see that he is a worse option than Martina. Isgrove is an interesting one, probably will never be good enough for us in the PL, yet his confidence is massive at the moment and maybe Puel will give him a chance to break into the squad if he decides to stay rather than go to Barnsley full-time. Will Wood looked good until his injury, but probably needs a season loan before he will break through. Make or break for Dom Gape this season as he is no longer an u21, haven't really seen enough to make me think he will make the transition to PL though. Hesketh might make the squad, but still seems too light weight to me. Sad to say that I think Sam Gallagher will not make it, doesn't seem to have progressed for a couple of years now, but will make a good pro in the lower leagues. McQueen may be one that can step up (at least in terms of the squad), did well on loan. The real talents though are Alfie Jones, Jake Flanagan, Yan Valery, Callum Slattery and Jake Vokins, who are all somewhat younger and might be able to push for squad places occasionally this season, and may be the ones who will actually prove to be long term first team players rather than the older group. That said most of our illustrious academy graduates from the past were full backs/wingers where age and experience is less of a barrier. It takes longer for the likes of centre backs or strikers to make the grade (and keepers of course). As things stand Gazzanigga is now our #2, I know he came from Gillingham but has has been with our development squad now a number of years and must be about ready to at least be the regular #2.

 

Problem this season is that unless we get a kind draw in the FA Cup there aren't likely to be any "easy" games to try out a few of the youngsters in match scenarios (enter the League Cup at late round again due to Europa and through to the Europa group stage). Maybe if we have already qualified or conversely not qualified match days 5/6 of the Europa may be an opportunity.

 

[emoji106]

[The9]

How would this board react if Puel played, say, Jack Stephens and Jason McCarthy in any early round of the League Cup and we lost because they had a 'mare?

 

That would probably depend on whether we'd stated that we wanted to win a cup (as with last season, then lost to the eventual FA Cup Runners Up in the first match) or if the club felt player development was more important.

 

Looks to me like the U21s will have a shot at winning the (competition formerly known as the) JPT this season anyway, we're already too far into the League Cup to risk the kids!

[The9]

Good analysis from VectisSaint but one thing I would like to challenge is the view on Sam Gallagher. He was close to first team football a couple of seasons back and then suffered number of setbacks including injury and 'growing to quick' He has now come back really strong and looked fantastic for the U21s toward the end of the season. I really would not be surprised to see him get a breakthrough in pre season and put himself in the reckoning. A sort of Pelle with pace...

 

He's no quicker than Pellè and I think McQueen is actually much more similar to Pellè in style.

[The9]

Worth remembering youth players normally come from nowhere. Bale, Shaw, Ox, JWP, none were widely talked about as having huge potential before being in the first team.

I think we've got some very good talent tucked away that's going to surprise us.

 

I don't think anyone in the U18s or above will be surprising anyone who's paying attention, nor were the 4 you mentioned much of a shock at the time, especially not Shaw who I was aware enough of in advance to watch in his debut after months of speculation on when he'd get a start.

 

No-one knows exactly who'll "take" at the top level but most people have an opinion on the likely candidates.

[Pass the Dutchie]

I think lots of people would have complained if Koeman had 'risked' using the talents in PL games. In hindsight it's always a nice idea, but on the day we just want the best team and bench available.

[The Cat]

Anyone wanting to judge the next lot of players just needs to watch them play. There's enough youth games on youtube or at St Mary's to give everyone the opportunity. Vokins and Slattery are the 2 whose development I'm most excited to see.

[positivepete]

The key is getting the chance. It is always the case when youngsters are given a chance find they find their level, be that they make an unexpected step up, or just don't make the expected grade. But without being given the chance you don't really know.

 

If Puel does indeed introduce a fast counter attacking style to the first team then different attributes will be required, and a youngster we have not considered may come to the fore as the age group teams don't play that style at the moment.

 

The previous MP clearly had faith in youngsters and worked hard to improvie them, the new MP comes with the same reputation, let's hope he has the same level of success.

[AllSorts]

I think lots of people would have complained if Koeman had 'risked' using the talents in PL games. In hindsight it's always a nice idea, but on the day we just want the best team and bench available.

 

The point being missed is Koeman didn't develop the U21s looking to step up. He blocked them from training with the first team, demoralised them by negative statements in the media and ripping into any who messed up when out of necessity were given a chance. Football performance at this level is so dependent on motivation, morale and confidence. Koeman did not motivate youth. Pochettino did and does. If Puel is true to his word and history we will hopefully see better performances from the 18-22 year olds this season at all levels. Then after this season it will be a lot clearer if the young guns are up to it or not because they will hopefully have been given a real chance. Just hope Koeman hasn't done too much damage to their development.

[ErwinK1961]

The point being missed is Koeman didn't develop the U21s looking to step up. He blocked them from training with the first team, demoralised them by negative statements in the media and ripping into any who messed up when out of necessity were given a chance. Football performance at this level is so dependent on motivation, morale and confidence. Koeman did not motivate youth. Pochettino did and does. If Puel is true to his word and history we will hopefully see better performances from the 18-22 year olds this season at all levels. Then after this season it will be a lot clearer if the young guns are up to it or not because they will hopefully have been given a real chance. Just hope Koeman hasn't done too much damage to their development.

 

[angelman]

Maybe RK came from the old school, where you criticised and put people down in the expectation that they would up their game to prove him wrong. Seems that maybe these days things have changed and you need to say "well done" the whole time. Or is that wrong? If avenues really were blocked then I could understand the discontent, but surely all avenues are never blocked and the old "cream rises to the top" bit is applicable.

[suewhistle]

Some interesting comments on here. I occasionally watch a bit on youtube and there's no one really stands out as one who 'has it' like Bale and Shaw and before that Stevie Mills or Williams, where you could see the potential from the beginning. Mind you, in the younger group I noticed Vokins and Alfie Jones looking really assured for their age, with that little bit of presence that makes them stand out.

 

I can see why a player like Gallagher divides opinion. I think he is faster than Pelle although his speed comes in over larger distances as he doesn't seem to be that quick from a standing start. I think his touch could be a lot better but after a difficult season and a growth spurt (so said his loan club manager) maybe he'll have a better time of it.

 

What we didn't do last season is give the kids any experience off the bench. The season before, for example, Dom Gape came off the bench very late on in a game (Everton for Shane Long - I looked it up!). Such an experience does a number of things: the player learns to control their fears (and heart rate..), gives a bit of confidence, whets the appetite for playing more, acts as a stimulus to renew their training efforts and probably gives them a bonus into the bargain. Playing alongside experienced players also shows how they'd fit in and probably raises their game. I hope we see more of the youngsters this season when it's appropriate, and I suspect Puel will risk a bit more than Koeman.

[The Cat]

As I said on another thread Koeman barely had any interaction with the youth teams, rarely watched them and gave the impression that he was completely disinterested in their progression. Compare that to Poch and Adkins who who made a point of knowing all their names, including them in first team training sessions and encouraging a pathway to the squad.

 

From what I've heard many found this different approach to be quite demoralising and completely at odds with what the club expected. Puel will obviously change this and make the youngsters feel valued again.

 

From now on there should be extra motivation amongst the U21's and U18's to impress because they will feel there is a much greater possibility of achievement within the club.

[AllSorts]

Maybe RK came from the old school, where you criticised and put people down in the expectation that they would up their game to prove him wrong. Seems that maybe these days things have changed and you need to say "well done" the whole time. Or is that wrong? If avenues really were blocked then I could understand the discontent, but surely all avenues are never blocked and the old "cream rises to the top" bit is applicable.

You may be right in what Koeman believes in terms of motivation but surely it's horses for courses. Was it carrot or stick that worked for Ben Arfa? Getting ****ed with your boss can work sometimes but Koeman just didn't provide a scenario for some of the young ones to respond. It was "No thanks - you're not going to get a chance". If you over whip cream it turns to butter

[Mowgli]

You may be right in what Koeman believes in terms of motivation but surely it's horses for courses. Was it carrot or stick that worked for Ben Arfa? Getting ****ed with your boss can work sometimes but Koeman just didn't provide a scenario for some of the young ones to respond. It was "No thanks - you're not going to get a chance". If you over whip cream it turns to butter

 

Think RK forgot the old school motto - Praise in pubic, criticise in private.

[david in sweden]

Think RK forgot the old school motto - Praise in pubic, criticise in private.

 

Mmm.....that comment is a little below the belt - isn't it?

[derry]

I think this year the U21s have become U23s with three matches against FL opposition initially more if progression strengthened by some over age players.