Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[shurlock]

That's more than 84% of the people that voted.

 

Given that the Lib Dems and Greens were the only parties offering an opportunity to stop Brexit with a second refurendum I think it's fair to say that the UK public are more than happy to carry on with Brexit.

 

Are you still pursuing that moronic line of argument?

[shurlock]

Who cares?? There's no future according to some. Leaving the EU has cost us that. We're doomed. I'm cashing in my pension, cashing my investments and selling my business. I intend to spunk it on women, alcohol and partying before 31/03/2019.

 

Always a silver lining...

 

https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2017/10/05/britons-get-easy-sex-brexit-whole-world-lines-screw-us/

Edited 6 October, 2017 by shurlock

[Johnny Bognor]

Always a solving lining...

 

https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2017/10/05/britons-get-easy-sex-brexit-whole-world-lines-screw-us/

Very good

 

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[aintforever]

Are you still pursuing that moronic line of argument?

 

Well instead of crying like a bunch of big babies you remoaners had plenty of chance to actually vote for an anti Brexit party and force a second refurendum. No one did, so here we are, stop ****ing moaning.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Well instead of crying like a bunch of big babies you remoaners had plenty of chance to actually vote for an anti Brexit party and force a second refurendum. No one did, so here we are, stop ****ing moaning.

 

They'll never stop moaning & crying and banging on about Europe

 

 

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[Verbal]

You can bluster about all you like, but he's right. Your argument is moronic. And surprisingly it doesn't get less moronic by your repetition of it.

 

By your measure, as someone who voted Labour in June I'm not a remoaner but a Brexiteer. Care to explain how I don't understand my own position on Brexit?

[aintforever]

You can bluster about all you like, but he's right. Your argument is moronic. And surprisingly it doesn't get less moronic by your repetition of it.

 

By your measure, as someone who voted Labour in June I'm not a remoaner but a Brexiteer. Care to explain how I don't understand my own position on Brexit?

 

If you feel that strongly about remaining I would have thought it made sense to vote for a party who could keep us in Europe by having a second refurendum. That's just my opinion.

 

To be fair Labour want a softer Brexit so remoaners voting for them makes a little bit of sense, it's remoaners who voted Tory that are the real ****ing idiots.

Edited 6 October, 2017 by aintforever

[badgerx16]

The US has increased the tariff on Bombardier aircraft, it is now 300%.

[hutch]

Bombarded is a Canadian company, it's got nothing to do with US/UK trade relations. Unless you're suggesting that Bombardier are going to sneak the finished aircraft over to Belfast and slap a MADE IN BRITAIN sticker on them before delivering them to the US.

 

What tariff is applied to the wings when they're delivered to Bombardier?

[CB Fry]

Bombarded is a Canadian company, it's got nothing to do with US/UK trade relations. Unless you're suggesting that Bombardier are going to sneak the finished aircraft over to Belfast and slap a MADE IN BRITAIN sticker on them before delivering them to the US.

 

What tariff is applied to the wings when they're delivered to Bombardier?

Here's the Prime Minister of Great Britain getting involved in something that has nothing to do with us and no impact because it's about Canada.

 

Weird she's so bothered about it because, you know, ha ha there's no Made in UK labels or somefink or whatever.

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/27/theresa-may-threatens-us-withtrade-war-bombardier-row/amp/

[shurlock]

If you feel that strongly about remaining I would have thought it made sense to vote for a party who could keep us in Europe by having a second refurendum. That's just my opinion.

 

To be fair Labour want a softer Brexit so remoaners voting for them makes a little bit of sense, it's remoaners who voted Tory that are the real ****ing idiots.

 

 

Your opinion isn’t worth much then.

 

In case you didn’t know, the UK’s first-past-the-post-system makes it very difficult for third parties like the Lib Dems (and UKIP) to thrive. There’s even a principle, Duverger’s Law, in recognition of this brute fact.

 

Remain voters knew this -and in the absence of overcoming the mother of all coordination problems, understood that any vote for the Lib Dems would have been wasted: worse it would have split the progressive vote. Better to vote for a party like Labour that made more moderate, if muddled noises about Brexit, especially in constituencies where the MP was an enthusiastic Remainer than give the Tories and the extremist wing a clean mandate. Where it was a two-horse race, Lib Dem leaflets urged supporters to do the same.

 

Criticising Remainers who voted Tory is far too simple: what happens if your MP is Ken Clarke, Anna Soubry, Nicky Morgan, Dominic Grieve, prominent Europhiles who have been forceful in scrutinising Brexit. They are as, if nor more valuable than Labour MPs as their views are more likely to resonate with more passive Tory colleagues who basically think the same and collectively they have the capacity to bring down the government.

 

Voting tactically in an imperfect system has many dimensions - seemingly beyond your grasp - never mind that elections bundle many different policy issues, making it ridiculous to extrapolate from vote share and hold it up as unambiguous support for or opposition to any one issue.

Edited 7 October, 2017 by shurlock

[hutch]

Here's the Prime Minister of Great Britain getting involved in something that has nothing to do with us and no impact because it's about Canada.

 

Weird she's so bothered about it because, you know, ha ha there's no Made in UK labels or somefink or whatever.

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/27/theresa-may-threatens-us-withtrade-war-bombardier-row/amp/

You're conflating two separate issues. Have a go at answering my question...

 

'What tariff is applied to the wings when they're delivered to Bombardier?'

 

Is it 300%, or is it not?

[CB Fry]

If you feel that strongly about remaining I would have thought it made sense to vote for a party who could keep us in Europe by having a second refurendum. That's just my opinion.

.

 

Just to recap.

 

Internet forum dinlow who was too gutless to place an actual vote in a in/out referendum is now having a pop at people for not treating a multi-faceted general election as a proxy referendum re-run.

 

That's just my opinion.

[badgerx16]

You're conflating two separate issues. Have a go at answering my question...

 

'What tariff is applied to the wings when they're delivered to Bombardier?'

 

Is it 300%, or is it not?

If the US airlines cannot buy the aircraft, what use is there for the factory in Belfast that makes the wings ?

 

Also, there is a lot of value placed in the concept of a post-Brexit trans-Atlantic trade deal; the US has such a deal with Canada, and this is how they act. Trump is an out and out protectionist, and the balance of power in any 'negotiations' will be heavily skewed in their favour.

Edited 7 October, 2017 by badgerx16

[CB Fry]

You're conflating two separate issues. Have a go at answering my question...

 

'What tariff is applied to the wings when they're delivered to Bombardier?'

 

Is it 300%, or is it not?

If say that your belief that these are "two separate issues" is the problem.

[OldNick]

What? We're not going to have a future now???? No one said this during the referendum campaign!!!

 

What about the other countries outside the EU? Do they have no future too? Is this why they are queuing up to join the EU?

Is having a future the main benefit of EU membership?

 

Just curious

I would suggest that most countries would like to join and have the customer base that comes with it.

I dislike Brussels, the waste and hangers on, as much as the majority of Brexiteers but to cut away your major customer base seems madness to me. Do you really think that the Americans are going to do anything to help us?? I recall Trumps advisors sending memos out seeking to gin as much of an advantage getting our trade as possible. You only have to look back at history, to see that they joined WWII on our side when they could see they wouldn't get their money they had invested in us through lend lease etc.

We are a small nation with a decent punch due to the size of our economy at this moment in time.We weren't always like that, it is our customer base with the EU that has put us in that position, remember when we joined what a state this nation was in

[hutch]

OK I give in. You're both right and I'm wrong. The US has imposed a 300% tariff on a Canadian company because Britain voted to leave the EU.

[Jonnyboy]

You can bluster about all you like, but he's right. Your argument is moronic. And surprisingly it doesn't get less moronic by your repetition of it.

 

By your measure, as someone who voted Labour in June I'm not a remoaner but a Brexiteer. Care to explain how I don't understand my own position on Brexit?

 

Glad to hear you voted for JC. Good lad.

[Guided Missile]

Looks like it'll be WTO rules then, according to the FT:

Germany rejects May’s Brexit transition hopes

 

Berlin-led countries insist divorce bill from EU will be resolved first. Germany and France have dashed British hopes of fast-tracking talks on a two-year post-Brexit transition deal, insisting that the UK’s EU divorce bill be resolved first.

Screw the EU and stop the direct debit in 2019. D!ck them around for the next 12 months and then walk away.

[CB Fry]

OK I give in. You're both right and I'm wrong. The US has imposed a 300% tariff on a Canadian company because Britain voted to leave the EU.

Err, not entirely sure who has actually said that "the US has imposed a 300% tariff on a Canadian company because Britain voted to leave the EU". Tell you what, I'm going to go with absolutely fu cking no one has said that.

 

I was responding to you saying Bombadier's issues with the UK had "nothing to do with US/UK trade relations". Just for clarity this is you quoted as saying exactly that.

Bombarded is a Canadian company, it's got nothing to do with US/UK trade relations. Unless you're suggesting that Bombardier are going to sneak the finished aircraft over to Belfast and slap a MADE IN BRITAIN sticker on them before delivering them to the US.

 

What tariff is applied to the wings when they're delivered to Bombardier?

If it has "nothing to do with UK/US trade relations" then why is our Prime Minister bothering to get involved, and contacting the US President about it?

 

On my planet, the UK Prime Minister contacting the US President about a trade relations issue has a real "UK/US trade relations" twang to it. Maybe it's just me and you're right.

 

Or maybe not.

[aintforever]

Just to recap.

 

Internet forum dinlow who was too gutless to place an actual vote in a in/out referendum is now having a pop at people for not treating a multi-faceted general election as a proxy referendum re-run.

 

That's just my opinion.

 

Yeah, because it takes a lot of guts to walk down to the village hall and put a cross on a bit of paper! You plumb.

 

I'm not having a pop at anyone solely for how they voted(not that I expected you or dipsh!t shirlock to understand), it's more the anti-Brexit people who voted for a party with a pro-Brexit mandate - then cry like a bunch of babies because Brexit is going ahead.

 

If the Lib Dems had got enough seats then either Labour or Tories would have had to strike a deal to form a government meaning they could have forced the second refurendum and stopped Brexit if the deal was not what the public wanted.

Edited 7 October, 2017 by aintforever

[CB Fry]

Yeah, because it takes a lot of guts to walk down to the village hall and put a cross on a bit of paper! You plumb.

 

I'm not having a pop at anyone solely for how they voted(not that I expected you or dipsh!t shirlock to understand), it's more the anti-Brexit people who voted for a party with a pro-Brexit mandate - then cry like a bunch of babies because Brexit is going ahead.

 

If the Lib Dems had got enough seats then either Labour or Tories would have had to strike a deal to form a government meaning they could have forced the second refurendum and stopped Brexit if the deal was not what the public wanted.

Still not grasped the notion of a multi-faceted general election then? Shurlock did try but I suspected he was wasting his time.

 

Pigsh it thick. Don't ever change x x x

[shurlock]

Yeah, because it takes a lot of guts to walk down to the village hall and put a cross on a bit of paper! You plumb.

 

I'm not having a pop at anyone solely for how they voted(not that I expected you or dipsh!t shirlock to understand), it's more the anti-Brexit people who voted for a party with a pro-Brexit mandate - then cry like a bunch of babies because Brexit is going ahead.

 

If the Lib Dems had got enough seats then either Labour or Tories would have had to strike a deal to form a government meaning they could have forced the second refurendum and stopped Brexit if the deal was not what the public wanted.

 

So you have no response to my earlier post except to whine.

 

FFS pal, if you were any dumber, you’d need watering twice a week.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I would suggest that most countries would like to join and have the customer base that comes with it.

 

God, what a load of pony. Most countries would like to join, complete nonsense. Norway has probably the closest relationship & they voted against joining, despite their own project fear. The Swiss have had 3 referendums and rejected membership each time. What you should have written is Turkey & a few basket cases would like to join. As for the customer base, nearly every country in the world has access to their customer base. If the EU wasn’t so shiete at doing trade deals, weren’t bogged down by vested interests and wasn’t so protectionist , there might be a few more with FTA . People criticising Trump for protectionism whilst lauding the EU is laughable, the EU is every bit as protectionist as Trumps America. According to Oxfam the EU is the most protectionist trading bloc in the world. Using all kinds of hidden tricks to punish trade from developing countries.

 

 

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[hutch]

Err, not entirely sure who has actually said that "the US has imposed a 300% tariff on a Canadian company because Britain voted to leave the EU". Tell you what, I'm going to go with absolutely fu cking no one has said that.

 

I was responding to you saying Bombadier's issues with the UK had "nothing to do with US/UK trade relations". Just for clarity this is you quoted as saying exactly that.If it has "nothing to do with UK/US trade relations" then why is our Prime Minister bothering to get involved, and contacting the US President about it?

 

On my planet, the UK Prime Minister contacting the US President about a trade relations issue has a real "UK/US trade relations" twang to it. Maybe it's just me and you're right.

 

Or maybe not.

 

I was responding to a post on a thread with the title Post EU - The Way Forward where badger said

 

The US has increased the tariff on Bombardier aircraft, it is now 300%.

 

You've failed to grasp the point, and gone off on an unrelated rant.

[aintforever]

Still not grasped the notion of a multi-faceted general election then? Shurlock did try but I suspected he was wasting his time.

 

Pigsh it thick. Don't ever change x x x

 

Multi faceted but according to mongs like Sherlock Brexit is a fate worse than death. Still if it's red or blue it gets a vote from the brain dead.

[shurlock]

Multi faceted but according to mongs like Sherlock Brexit is a fate worse than death. Still if it's red or blue it gets a vote from the brain dead.

 

Care to show me where I said that or respond to my earlier post where I explained the logic of voting Conservative or Labour?

 

You obviously can’t, can you .

 

Better luck next time little fella.

[badgerx16]

I was responding to a post on a thread with the title Post EU - The Way Forward where badger said

 

"The US has increased the tariff on Bombardier aircraft, it is now 300%."

 

You've failed to grasp the point, and gone off on an unrelated rant.

The main point that is intended in relation to the mention of the Bombardier tarriffs is that if the US can impose a 300% surcharge despite a trade agreement being in place, is there any point in claiming that a post-Brexit trade deal with the US will in any way work to our benefit ? Secondly, this imposition has a direct impact on the UK, and shows how little real influence we have, and are likely to maintain, over the selfish interests of a protectionist United States Department of Commerce.

 

There has never been a direct link between the tarriffs and the Brexit vote, real or implied.

Edited 7 October, 2017 by badgerx16

[shurlock]

I was responding to a post on a thread with the title Post EU - The Way Forward where badger said

 

 

 

You've failed to grasp the point, and gone off on an unrelated rant.

 

If you can’t work out why the PM personally intervening in a dispute after the US slaps prohibitive tariffs on a company that is one of NI’s largest employers while Brexiteers are telling us that the world outside the EU is full of opportunity for free trade is not relevant to this thread, then I suggest you take a breather.

 

Never mind this is only adding to the uncertainty that NI already faces over a possible hard border as a result of Brexit.

 

Anyway, I’m sure, deep down, you know all this and realise you made a tit of yourself. You just can’t come out and say it.

[hutch]

That is exactly my point. There is no link between the Bombardier tariff and Brexit. The tariff would still be 300% even if we had voted to remain in the EU.

[hutch]

If you can’t work out why the PM personally intervening in a dispute after the US slaps prohibitive tariffs on a company that is one of NI’s largest employers while Brexiteers are telling us that the world outside the EU is full of opportunity for free trade is not relevant to this thread, then I suggest you take a breather.

 

Never mind this is only adding to the uncertainty that NI already faces over a possible hard border as a result of Brexit.

 

Anyway, I’m sure, deep down, you know all this and realise you made a tit of yourself. You just can’t come out and say it.

Tell you what, pal. (We're all pals on here aren't we?) I'll put my hands up and agree I'm a tit if you can show:

 

a) that the 300% tariff is a result of Brexit; and

b) the tariff levied on wing components arriving in Canada from Belfast is 300%

[shurlock]

Tell you what, pal. (We're all pals on here aren't we?) I'll put my hands up and agree I'm a tit if you can show:

 

a) that the 300% tariff is a result of Brexit; and

b) the tariff levied on wing components arriving in Canada from Belfast is 300%

 

You’re asking questions nobody is seeking the answers to. Nice try.

[aintforever]

Care to show me where I said that or respond to my earlier post where I explained the logic of voting Conservative or Labour?

 

You obviously can’t, can you .

 

Better luck next time little fella.

 

I understand the logic of the voting and how our system works, it's not rocket science. Our electoral system is out-dated and defunct.

 

I was questioning the logic of people moaning when a government they voted for does what was in their manefesto. Remoaners bang on about Brexit as if it will be the end of the World and in the election all the parties offering an opportunity to stop it saw their vote share go down.

 

Seems to me you should save your girly whining for the state of our electoral system not what might happen when we leave the EU.

[shurlock]

I understand the logic of the voting and how our system works, it's not rocket science. Our electoral system is out-dated and defunct.

 

I was questioning the logic of people moaning when a government they voted for does what was in their manefesto. Remoaners bang on about Brexit as if it will be the end of the World and in the election all the parties offering an opportunity to stop it saw their vote share go down.

 

Seems to me you should save your girly whining for the state of our electoral system not what might happen when we leave the EU.

 

Glad to see you’re backtracking from your original claim that “the UK public are more than happy to carry on with Brexit”.

 

Though it would appear you still don’t get it.

[van Hanegem]

Glad to see you’re backtracking from your original claim that “the UK public are more than happy to carry on with Brexit”.

 

It's obvious that Brexit is going to cost the UK a lot financially but don't you have any concerns about what's going on in the EU Shurlock? Though the UK kept clear of the Euro Pact (and rightfully so!) it could also be affected by the reforms Merkel and Macron are aiming for to assure the stability of the Euro: a joint budget for members of the Euro Pact, co-finance of the EU's finances etc. These measures imply that members will have to handover their sovereignty and taxmoney to a supranational level from which all the collected taxmoney will be redistributed between the weaker and stronger members of the Euro Pact. Yup, that means that mainly the Dutch, Germans and Fins are going to finance the disorder in Southern Europe at the cost of their own prosperity. We were told that the Euro would bring prosperity and employment, well, to put it mildly: something went wrong... Due to the transfersystem of the Euro the Netherlands already put 101 billion in the failing states in Southern Europe (Germany 857 billion...) and mind you, we have to write off these amounts as we get no interest and can't even get the money back. In the meantime the "Food Banks" in the Netherlands (introduced two years after the introduction of the Euro) can't provide enough food for the poor as their numbers are rising rapidly. Instead of the promised prosperity it appears the EU (or should I say Merkel & Macron?) wants to apportion poverty in a fair way over Europe.

 

One could believe that the UK would not have been affected by this misery as long as it wouldn't take part in the Euro Pact but that would be naive. I don't know how severe the financial damage will be after a "hard" or "soft" Brexit, at least the Brits will have a (albeit small) chance to stay clear of the mess in Europe and make their own decisions. Isn't that in some way valuable to you?

[OldNick]

It's obvious that Brexit is going to cost the UK a lot financially but don't you have any concerns about what's going on in the EU Shurlock? Though the UK kept clear of the Euro Pact (and rightfully so!) it could also be affected by the reforms Merkel and Macron are aiming for to assure the stability of the Euro: a joint budget for members of the Euro Pact, co-finance of the EU's finances etc. These measures imply that members will have to handover their sovereignty and taxmoney to a supranational level from which all the collected taxmoney will be redistributed between the weaker and stronger members of the Euro Pact. Yup, that means that mainly the Dutch, Germans and Fins are going to finance the disorder in Southern Europe at the cost of their own prosperity. We were told that the Euro would bring prosperity and employment, well, to put it mildly: something went wrong... Due to the transfersystem of the Euro the Netherlands already put 101 billion in the failing states in Southern Europe (Germany 857 billion...) and mind you, we have to write off these amounts as we get no interest and can't even get the money back. In the meantime the "Food Banks" in the Netherlands (introduced two years after the introduction of the Euro) can't provide enough food for the poor as their numbers are rising rapidly. Instead of the promised prosperity it appears the EU (or should I say Merkel & Macron?) wants to apportion poverty in a fair way over Europe.

 

One could believe that the UK would not have been affected by this misery as long as it wouldn't take part in the Euro Pact but that would be naive. I don't know how severe the financial damage will be after a "hard" or "soft" Brexit, at least the Brits will have a (albeit small) chance to stay clear of the mess in Europe and make their own decisions. Isn't that in some way valuable to you?

interesting thought. How long will Germany and the Dutch citizens put up with funding the Southern Europeans?

[Guided Missile]

It's interesting to look at the contribution the UK makes to the EU budget and the disproportionate number of UK staff working in the bloated EU institution we are getting ripped of by, which exists increasingly for it's own purpose, not that of it's citizens.

 

 

[Johnny Bognor]

interesting thought. How long will Germany and the Dutch citizens put up with funding the Southern Europeans?

Interesting thought. You make it sound like they have a choice [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

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[scotty]

Interesting thought. You make it sound like they have a choice [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

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The 13% who voted AfD presumably think they ought to have.

[Johnny Bognor]

I would suggest that most countries would like to join and have the customer base that comes with it.

I dislike Brussels, the waste and hangers on, as much as the majority of Brexiteers but to cut away your major customer base seems madness to me. Do you really think that the Americans are going to do anything to help us?? I recall Trumps advisors sending memos out seeking to gin as much of an advantage getting our trade as possible. You only have to look back at history, to see that they joined WWII on our side when they could see they wouldn't get their money they had invested in us through lend lease etc.

We are a small nation with a decent punch due to the size of our economy at this moment in time.We weren't always like that, it is our customer base with the EU that has put us in that position, remember when we joined what a state this nation was in

Yes but to suggest no future is a serious case of bedwetting.

 

Did those countries who did not join the Euro give up on their future? Or maybe they on the whole faired better?

 

There is no doubt that the short term will be a bumpy ride. But things will even out in the medium to long term.

Edited 8 October, 2017 by Johnny Bognor

[Johnny Bognor]

The 13% who voted AfD presumably think they ought to have.

They wont be exiting the euro anytime soon, or the EU for that matter. Not unless either collapses

[van Hanegem]

interesting thought. How long will Germany and the Dutch citizens put up with funding the Southern Europeans?

 

There's a lot of scepticism in the Netherlands concerning the EU but as long as the majority is financially ok nothing much will happen. People are glad the crisis of the last years is behind us and they are more positive about the future. Little do they know as there is not much information coming from mainstream media about what's happening in the backrooms in Brussels. But the number of financial experts and journalists reporting about the problems with the Euro is growing so hopefully our politicians will act in the near future before it's too late. However, it will never come as far as a Nexit as the Dutch economy relies on trading relations with Germany. "When Germany sneezes, the Netherlands catch a cold" as the saying goes.

 

I do have worries about Germany as one in six Germans has difficulties to make both ends meet and faces poverty. When the German people asked for more money for housing and welfare a couple of years ago, the answer was no as the government had to help the banks, Greece etc. Later on the answer was again no while Merkel accepted roughly 1 million immigrants at great cost (50 billion in 2016 and 2017 alone...). You can imagine this is not well received by many Germans and even 12% of them voted for the AfD which contains right wing extremists. That's worrying... Like the article you shared about the pension storm that is coming to Europe, things will get worse for the elderly. When things go wrong in Southern Europe and the Germans lose hundreds of billions due to the Euro, it might get really nasty...

[scotty]

They wont be exiting the euro anytime soon, or the EU for that matter. Not unless either collapses

 

I realise that, and when the EU finally implodes Germany will be the last man standing. But the idea that everyone in Germany is perfectly happy about it is a fallacy, and we now have a right wing extremist party in the German assembly with 13% of the vote.

[shurlock]

I realise that, and when the EU finally implodes Germany will be the last man standing. But the idea that everyone in Germany is perfectly happy about it is a fallacy, and we now have a right wing extremist party in the German assembly with 13% of the vote.

 

Evidence that they're all dissatisfied with the EU -as opposed to other issues such as the influx of Syrian refugees and fear of Islam which, of course, have nothing to do with the EU?

[buctootim]

I realise that, and when the EU finally implodes Germany will be the last man standing.

 

A kippers wet dream and Brexiteers biggest hope - that the tooth fairy will come and save them.

 

the idea that everyone in Germany is perfectly happy about it is a fallacy, and we now have a right wing extremist party in the German assembly with 13% of the vote.

 

The party that Farage campaigned for? Increasingly there is not much difference between UKIP's policies and AFD.

 

"Nigel Farage tells German anti-immigrant party AfD: 'Once you are able to speak the unspeakable people will begin to think the unthinkable'

The former Ukip leader was personally invited to speak at the Berlin event by Beatrix von Storch, the granddaughter of Hitler's finance minister"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nigel-farage-germany-right-wing-anti-immigrant-afd-berlin-hitler-finance-minister-granddaughter-a7937126.html

[shurlock]

It's interesting to look at the contribution the UK makes to the EU budget and the disproportionate number of UK staff working in the bloated EU institution we are getting ripped of by, which exists increasingly for it's own purpose, not that of it's citizens.

 

 

 

Yahya, 18 months on and you still don't know the elementary difference between gross and net contribution. Sad!

 

Word of advice pal: stop copying and pasting charts you don't understand.

[shurlock]

It's obvious that Brexit is going to cost the UK a lot financially but don't you have any concerns about what's going on in the EU Shurlock? Though the UK kept clear of the Euro Pact (and rightfully so!) it could also be affected by the reforms Merkel and Macron are aiming for to assure the stability of the Euro: a joint budget for members of the Euro Pact, co-finance of the EU's finances etc. These measures imply that members will have to handover their sovereignty and taxmoney to a supranational level from which all the collected taxmoney will be redistributed between the weaker and stronger members of the Euro Pact. Yup, that means that mainly the Dutch, Germans and Fins are going to finance the disorder in Southern Europe at the cost of their own prosperity. We were told that the Euro would bring prosperity and employment, well, to put it mildly: something went wrong... Due to the transfersystem of the Euro the Netherlands already put 101 billion in the failing states in Southern Europe (Germany 857 billion...) and mind you, we have to write off these amounts as we get no interest and can't even get the money back. In the meantime the "Food Banks" in the Netherlands (introduced two years after the introduction of the Euro) can't provide enough food for the poor as their numbers are rising rapidly. Instead of the promised prosperity it appears the EU (or should I say Merkel & Macron?) wants to apportion poverty in a fair way over Europe.

 

One could believe that the UK would not have been affected by this misery as long as it wouldn't take part in the Euro Pact but that would be naive. I don't know how severe the financial damage will be after a "hard" or "soft" Brexit, at least the Brits will have a (albeit small) chance to stay clear of the mess in Europe and make their own decisions. Isn't that in some way valuable to you?

 

Of course, I have concerns but there are other things that worry me more. I'm comfortable with complexity - I don't need scapegoats.

 

Yes Macron and Merkel have proposed deeper integration on budget and finance; but the reforms are starting from a very low base. Ultimately public expenditure rests with member states: thus the UK controls more than 98 per cent of its public expenditure whatever the ignorant bluster claim on here. Admittedly things are different for Eurozone countries but the prospect of deep fiscal union, a superstate with extensive tax and spend powers is no more real than the Brexiteet myth of a sunny uplands.

 

I opposed the Euro, in large part because of its inflexibility and lack of fiscal transfer as a stabilisation mechanism. The irony is that these are precisely the flaws that Macron and Merkel's proposals now hope to remedy. As things stand, the EU’s halfway house suits nobody -not a minority who want deeper integration as a political project and not a majority who don’t want to be on the hook for other countries problems in the future. Without fiscal risk-sharing, small and containable country shocks can rapidly become systemic which makes everyone worse off.

 

Don’t get me wrong. Fears that this will just mean more bills are left unpaid as the North props up the South are completely understandable (though the PIGS -Greece included- have shown tentative signs of recovery). The flip side, of course, is that poorer Eurozone countries, as members of the single market, have been required to open their markets to Dutch and German companies which are significantly more competitive. And those companies have benefited from having a currency that is weaker than a stand-alone currency would have been. Perhaps the problem is that these benefits have flowed to these companies and their shareholder rather than shared more widely. If that’s the case, then it’s a failing of national policy and redistribution as much as the EU's fault.

 

We’ve been here before. In the US, the South also had a history of poverty and underdevelopment and was dependent for decades on fiscal transfers from the federal government, causing resentment. However if economic theory says anything, it is that poorer regions and countries have greater room for economic growth and catch-up than those at the productivity frontier. Today the South is the largest generator of both GDP and GDP growth in the US and home to ten of the 15 fastest-growing large cities. Am not saying history will repeat itself. It could all end in messy failure, a risk I don’t discount as I’m generally gloomy about the outlook for the global economy. However, fixing the rules around the Euro, ideally in a gradual manner -along with a renewed commitment from the Southern Eurozone to structural reform (see Spain's efforts) would appear steps in the right direction.

 

I don't think the UK could stay clear of any mess. It is so bound up with Europe that any crisis on the continent would still lead to immense collateral damage. Likewise the sovereignty argument is overstated IMO. Even after the UK leaves the EU, it is very likely that industry will still follow EU rules, even if it’s under no legal obligation, simply in order reduce the need for border checks and other forms of compliance. The car industry has already signalled its intention to do this whatever the government does. This seems a particularly tortuous course of action just to avoid the direct jurisdiction of the ECJ. And while UK industry will still follow rules coming out of Brussels, it will no longer have any say in their formulation. So much for sovereignty.

 

I'm pragmatic sovereignty as I think too much power is concentrated in Westminster and an outmoded electoral system. That’s why in addition to electoral reform, I support both devolution of power to local authorities (downwards) and pooling sovereignty selectively at a supranational level with appropriate accountability (upward). Why the latter? Because the deepening of globalisation creates challenges -regulatory arbitrage, financial instability, tax evasion, protectionism, terrorism, cybercrime, environmental protection and energy security- that no state can resolve on its own. Supranational institutions also amplify the clout and choices of smaller nations, ensuring that the rules of globalisation aren’t simply written for the benefit of the US and China and very narrow economic interests but are conducted on the basis of reciprocity. The notion of taking back control, in this respect, is a hollow victory, if not a cruel oxymoron - something which the UK and the Brexit fundamentalists are going to learn the hard way.

Edited 9 October, 2017 by shurlock

[OldNick]

Yahya, 18 months on and you still don't know the elementary difference between gross and net contribution. Sad!

 

Word of advice pal: stop copying and pasting charts you don't understand.

Does it make a difference whether it is gross or net? Whilst the figures would be reduced as a net figure, the percentages would not be much different, surely

[OldNick]

Jeremy Corbyn will be delighted with us dropping out of the EU as that will leave him free to Re nationalise industries, something that you are not able to do in the EU

[OldNick]

http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2017/10/9/germany-is-battling-for-londons-930bn-a-day-clearing-business