Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[aintforever]

But why leave

 

What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

 

Bit late with this one fella, we've had this discussion. Leave won and the button's been pressed.

[Verbal]

The immigration policy leak seems to have cause something less than a tsunami of comment. As ugly as it is, and as much as it tells us about May's profound xenophobia, it also reveals an ugly truth for those who want their Brexit rammed up them hard.

 

And that is that this government is not serious. If it were true that there is going to be a cut-off in March 2019, we would have to have seen before now some huge investments in infrastructure to cope with post-Brexit. Under what counts for their plan, even the transition period dumps us out of single market and customs union membership. Therefore we should have seen before now massive investment in border infrastructure - masses of extra staff being recruited and trained, thousands of acres of land being compulsorily purchased to create customs waiting areas for freight, hundred of millions invested in customs halls and technology, the construction of a new fleet of customs patrol craft, a complete overhaul and massive investment in immigration staff and technology etc., etc.

 

And that's just customs and immigration.

 

How much of this is happening, a mere eighteen months before we crash out? Nothing, nada. As I've said many times before to the Jihadists, if you want your Brexit hard, you're going to be betrayed by this government. And pining for the 'no deal better than a bad deal' option won't help either - because it forgets that there are two possible outcomes of 'no deal': crashing out and, much more likely, bellyflopping back in.

 

Hard remain here we come...

[John B]

Why are you still fighting the referendum campaign,move on. It's over,finished, your side lost. The country was asked & it gave its answer.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The campaign is far from over as Brexiters have little idea what the ramifications of leaving the EU actually are and how the country will run when we leave the EU

 

If you know let me know apparently a transition is now required but has not been discussed in detail with the EU

 

Brexit is like religion but without the sanity tolerance rationality and connection to reason

[Sour Mash]

Why are you still fighting the referendum campaign,move on. It's over,finished, your side lost. The country was asked & it gave its answer.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not just that, it's a list of lies.

 

Don't think watching remoaners crying will stop being funny any time soon though.

[Portugalsaint]

The campaign is far from over as Brexiters have little idea what the ramifications of leaving the EU actually are and how the country will run when we leave the EU

 

There was life before the EU you know and actually the UK were very good at it.

[Batman]

The campaign is far from over as Brexiters have little idea what the ramifications of leaving the EU actually are and how the country will run when we leave the EU

 

If you know let me know apparently a transition is now required but has not been discussed in detail with the EU

 

Brexit is like religion but without the sanity tolerance rationality and connection to reason

 

you are a bit weird about all this

[benjii]

Is John B, Tony Blair?

[Verbal]

you are a bit weird about all this

 

Only your ignorance can lead you to this conclusion. He's actually right. The May regime is saying a transition deal is necessary and yet has failed to discuss it in any detail with the EU.

 

Nor is the EU in the least bit interested in agreeing a 'bespoke' transition deal, nor in any kind of trade deal at all before the end of the year.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/09/leaked-memo-citys-brexit-envoy-reveals-sobering-analysis-eu/

 

You Brexit Jihad acolytes have been warned over and over again - May and the gang aren't behaving as serious negotiators, and are acting against your cult's interests out of sheer uselessness. The more rational Brexiteers are prepared to acknowledge this.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-tories-uk-pm-leader-hopeless-attack-lord-harris-a7937381.html

[Weston Super Saint]

Only your ignorance can lead you to this conclusion. He's actually right. The May regime is saying a transition deal is necessary and yet has failed to discuss it in any detail with the EU.

 

Nor is the EU in the least bit interested in agreeing a 'bespoke' transition deal, nor in any kind of trade deal at all before the end of the year.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/09/leaked-memo-citys-brexit-envoy-reveals-sobering-analysis-eu/

 

You Brexit Jihad acolytes have been warned over and over again - May and the gang aren't behaving as serious negotiators, and are acting against your cult's interests out of sheer uselessness. The more rational Brexiteers are prepared to acknowledge this.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-tories-uk-pm-leader-hopeless-attack-lord-harris-a7937381.html

 

Any chance you can change your username to "Mental"?

 

Your posts are becoming more and more delusional

[OldNick]

 

Brexit is like religion but without the sanity tolerance rationality and connection to reason

I don't know what religion you follow but none of that seems to fall in with any I have witnessed

[Verbal]

Any chance you can change your username to "Mental"?

 

Your posts are becoming more and more delusional

 

I give up. Your cogent eloquence has persuaded me. Well done!

 

I couldn't quite detect any measurable thought from you, though, on what precisely is wrong with the case for the May regime's reckless incompetence. You got any actual, you know, arguments?

 

Yet another example of stunning stupidity is the 'magical thinking' involved in Davis's proposal for a 'frictionless' customs border between the two Irelands. Once the obvious was pointed out - that the technology doesn't exist, and that even if it did work that would still mean a hard border - the position paper was quietly taken out and shot.

 

Still, you're convinced, so that's good. I can see that you have exactly no problem believing that a government that will take four years to fix Big Ben can tear down and rebuild the regulatory framework of the British economy and its relationship with the EU in a whole eighteen months.

 

I don't know what religion you follow but none of that seems to fall in with any I have witnessed

 

I agree, 'religion' isn't quite right. It is more an economic death cult.

[badgerx16]

it's a list of lies.

 

Any chance you could highlight the lies for us, as they're not immediately obvious.

[Weston Super Saint]

I couldn't quite detect any measurable thought from you, though, on what precisely is wrong with the case for the May regime's reckless incompetence. You got any actual, you know, arguments?

 

How about this one?

 

Only your ignorance can lead you to this conclusion. He's actually right. The May regime is saying a transition deal is necessary and yet has failed to discuss it in any detail with the EU.

 

Nor is the EU in the least bit interested in agreeing a 'bespoke' transition deal, nor in any kind of trade deal at all before the end of the year.

 

Not convinced it's cogent eloquence though! Seems to me that what you are saying is that the EU is not interested in agreeing - and consequently discussing - any sort of bespoke transition deal, which you know to be categorically the truth. Yet, on the other hand, you are claiming that May's 'reckless regime' has failed to discuss any detail with the EU!

 

Does it not stand to reason that if you know, categorically, that the EU is not interested in agreeing a transition deal, then, unless you are keeping this information very firmly under your [tin foil] hat, then the entire government are also aware of this!

 

Would it not also stand to reason that if the entire government are aware that the EU is not interested in discussing the deal then it is pretty pointless trying to discuss it with them!

 

Certainly seems strange that you are blaming May's 'reckless' regime for not reaching a deal on an issue which you state is not going to be discussed by the EU until the end of the year.

 

Mental!

[shurlock]

How about this one?

 

 

 

Not convinced it's cogent eloquence though! Seems to me that what you are saying is that the EU is not interested in agreeing - and consequently discussing - any sort of bespoke transition deal, which you know to be categorically the truth. Yet, on the other hand, you are claiming that May's 'reckless regime' has failed to discuss any detail with the EU!

 

Does it not stand to reason that if you know, categorically, that the EU is not interested in agreeing a transition deal, then, unless you are keeping this information very firmly under your [tin foil] hat, then the entire government are also aware of this!

 

Would it not also stand to reason that if the entire government are aware that the EU is not interested in discussing the deal then it is pretty pointless trying to discuss it with them!

 

Certainly seems strange that you are blaming May's 'reckless' regime for not reaching a deal on an issue which you state is not going to be discussed by the EU until the end of the year.

 

Mental!

 

You do know the difference between a transition deal and a ‘bespoke’ transition deal?

[hutch]

As nobody has ever done this before, any deal would be bespoke.

[farawaysaint]

[John B]

I don't know what religion you follow but none of that seems to fall in with any I have witnessed

 

A religion is a set of beliefs that is held by a group of people just like Brexit

[shurlock]

As nobody has ever done this before, any deal would be bespoke.

 

 

Woods through the trees stuff. It's pretty clear what is meant by a bespoke deal. Just check the statements made by the main protagonists.

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/08/03/the-weird-fantasy-world-of-brexit-transition

 

For a basic introduction to the different terms.

[Verbal]

How about this one?

 

 

 

Not convinced it's cogent eloquence though! Seems to me that what you are saying is that the EU is not interested in agreeing - and consequently discussing - any sort of bespoke transition deal, which you know to be categorically the truth. Yet, on the other hand, you are claiming that May's 'reckless regime' has failed to discuss any detail with the EU!

 

Does it not stand to reason that if you know, categorically, that the EU is not interested in agreeing a transition deal, then, unless you are keeping this information very firmly under your [tin foil] hat, then the entire government are also aware of this!

 

Would it not also stand to reason that if the entire government are aware that the EU is not interested in discussing the deal then it is pretty pointless trying to discuss it with them!

 

Certainly seems strange that you are blaming May's 'reckless' regime for not reaching a deal on an issue which you state is not going to be discussed by the EU until the end of the year.

 

Mental!

 

Looking on the bright side, at least you've made an effort to string an argument together. Unfortunately, you've made a complete mess of it.

 

Read again the last sentence of mine you quoted. Here it is:

 

Nor is the EU in the least bit interested in agreeing a 'bespoke' transition deal, nor in any kind of trade deal at all before the end of the year.

 

Note the highlighted bit - the bit you entirely missed. (Reading to the end of sentences is generally a good idea if you want to capture their meaning.)

 

So you've rather hopelessly constructed an argument based entirely on failing to read to the end of a sentence. I'm not saying the EU won't agree ever - just that it won't before the end of the year.

 

You seem particularly clueless about what's going on, so here's a helpful précis. The EU negotiating team have made it a condition of any discussion of a trade deal that 'progress' be made on three key components of an exit deal: rights of citizenship, the Ireland 'hard border' problem (and it's implications for the Good Friday agreement), and the exit bill.

 

On the first, the only progress has to so with EHIC. There was much trumpeting by Brexiteers about this. What they failed to point out is that the agreement so far on EHIC is a severely limited version of what we have now - it only applies to the snapshot of people found either side of the border on exit day. ALL the other questions to do with citizenship - much thornier than EHIC - have yet to get to a starting point of negotiation.

 

With regard to the Irish border, the hopeless situation is that the UK government presented a ludicrous position paper which they themselves hurriedly withdrew. So no progress there.

 

With regard to the exit bill, there is also no progress at all, and if anything the endless nitpicking, which occupied almost all the negotiating time in the last round, indicates that there's several months' work needed just to get this to an 'agree to disagree' point.

 

So do I KNOW there won't be progress on a trade deal before the end of the year? Of course! The EU are saying it, and the British government are saying it (notably by Davis's call for 'flexibility' - i.e. 'let's talk trade stuff instead of all this really difficult exit stuff). Beyond that, the European parliament and each of the 27 member states have ALL to agree unanimously within the next six weeks that progress has been made. That is simply not going to happen.

 

To your bizarre conclusion that it's not worth talking to the EU if they're not prepared to negotiate, this, as you now no doubt see, is based on an entirely false premise - it is literally the opposite of true. The EU has been ready to negotiate since day one. It has also had, from day one, an agreed position between member states on all the key issues. The UK government, on the other hand, is still negotiating with itself, and has proved spectacularly inept at producing an agreed position on pretty much anything.

 

Just on the transition deal, what do you think the UK government's position is? Is it Fox's 'no single market; no customs union'? Or is it Hammond's bits of both? Or Davis's 'single market but no customs union? Or Boris's 'cake and eat it'? All different, all contradictory.

 

As I've said repeatedly, true Brexit Jihadists should be very worried, and demand the government get its act together. It pleases remoaners like me no end that you have this ludicrous blind faith in the May regime delivering you to your promised land of milk and honey and x virgins.

[hutch]

Woods through the trees stuff. It's pretty clear what is meant by a bespoke deal. Just check the statements made by the main protagonists.

 

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2017/08/03/the-weird-fantasy-world-of-brexit-transition

 

For a basic introduction to the different terms.

 

Dead right. Don't want people thinking about things differently from you and your chums, eh?

[shurlock]

Dead right. Don't want people thinking about things differently from you and your chums, eh?

 

Nothing to do with what me and my chums think.

 

To the extent the UK is looking for a transition deal, it’s generally understood that the choice is between an off-the-shelf deal that largely mirrors other existing arrangements, though with possible tweaks at the margins and a bespoke deal that is not based on an existing model but is sui generis to the UK, informed by the May government’s various red lines.

 

One doesn’t have to take a position on the feasibility or desirability of either to say that this is how the debate is understood by ALL sides. However, if you want to take comfort in the banality that any deal involving the UK, to the extent that it’s not been done before, even if it ultimately means plumping for EEA membership à la Norway, is bespoke, then fill your boots pal.

[hutch]

When exactly was it that Norway left the EU? The date escapes me.

[shurlock]

When exactly was it that Norway left the EU? The date escapes me.

 

I wonder why Ministers were debating it then...

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/07/transitional-deal-that-keeps-uk-in-eea-is-worst-of-possible-worlds-says-davis

[hutch]

Possibly something do with the bespoke nature of the deal?

[Weston Super Saint]

Seriously? That's your come back?

 

Looking on the bright side, at least you've made an effort to string an argument together. Unfortunately, you've made a complete mess of it.

 

Read again the last sentence of mine you quoted. Here it is:

 

Nor is the EU in the least bit interested in agreeing a 'bespoke' transition deal, nor in any kind of trade deal at all before the end of the year.

 

Note the highlighted bit - the bit you entirely missed. (Reading to the end of sentences is generally a good idea if you want to capture their meaning.)

 

So you've rather hopelessly constructed an argument based entirely on failing to read to the end of a sentence. I'm not saying the EU won't agree ever - just that it won't before the end of the year.

 

Did you read the last line of my post - I'm guessing not, so here it is....

 

 

Certainly seems strange that you are blaming May's 'reckless' regime for not reaching a deal on an issue which you state is not going to be discussed by the EU until the end of the year.

 

Mental!

 

I guess it's a question of tenses but it certainly appears that you are blaming May's inept government 'right now' for something that is not even possible to negotiate on until the end of the year....

 

Seems pretty clear that I did read the end of your post, well the first time anyway! The last post I quoted from seemed to be more inane ramblings!! You seem to be posting what you 'hope' is happening and what you 'hope' will one day happen and passing it off as what is 'actually' happening!

 

Mental!

[shurlock]

“Brexit transition deal should look like status quo”

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d7873094-97dd-11e7-b83c-9588e51488a0

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/12/philip-hammond-transition-must-look-a-lot-like-status-quo

 

It’s going to be as bespoke as a cheap suit from moss bros

Edited 12 September, 2017 by shurlock

[Weston Super Saint]

“Brexit transition deal should look like status quo”

 

https://www.ft.com/content/d7873094-97dd-11e7-b83c-9588e51488a0

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/12/philip-hammond-transition-must-look-a-lot-like-status-quo

 

It’s going to be as bespoke as a cheap suit from moss bros

 

Is that because, as Mental has already said, "the EU is not the least bit interested in agreeing a bespoke deal"?

 

Would make it kind of hard to agree a bespoke deal if the other party in the negotiations have already taken their ball home and locked it away in the garage!

 

Still, I'm sure there's some way to blame May's government for this....

[Guided Missile]

...and the good news continues, here:

 

London has held onto top spot in the latest ranking of global financial centers as the gap with second placed New York City (NYC) widens, according to the most recent iteration of the semi-annual report released on Monday.

 

Despite the looming threat of Brexit and fears that the city will cede a significant amount of financial companies and employees who are driven out by either regulatory stipulations or concerns over changes that may detract from the city's appeal, London's tally has only lost two points since the previous report. This is the smallest fall of any of the top ten centers.

 

Meantime, North American cities, namely regional leader NYC which has lost 24 points since March and others including San Francisco, Chicago, Boston and Vancouver, have taken a much larger hit over the period, with the report's authors pointing to fears over U.S. trade as the possible key reason.

 

Cue the remainers trying to turn that into bad news...

[Guided Missile]

Pick the bones out of the report, here...

[trousers]

...and the good news continues, here:

 

Cue the remainers trying to turn that into bad news...

 

As far as I can tell, the rules of 'debate' on this are:

 

Brexiteer

- All bad economic news since the referendum has got nothing to do with the Brexit vote because we haven't actually left the EU yet

- All good economic good news since the referendum is a sign that the Brexit vote isn't having/won't have a negative impact on the economy, even after we've left the EU

Remainer

- All bad economic news since the referendum is because of the Brexit vote, regardless of the fact that we haven't actually left the EU yet

- All good economic news since the referendum has got nothing to do with the Brexit vote because we haven't actually left the EU yet

 

I think that's about right, isn't it? #bothsidesasgoodatspinningaseachother

[Guided Missile]

 

 

 

While Germany sucks the jobs out of the rest of the Eurozone:

 

[shurlock]

Pick the bones out of the report, here...

 

That’s an atrociously bad report John - competitiveness reports are two a penny, though they’re almost always theoretically and methodologically flawed. Business school and consultancy claptrap. But I guess Yaqub Rees Mogg tweeted about it approvingly, so you dim kipper lemmings have to follow suit.

Edited 13 September, 2017 by shurlock

[badgerx16]

...and the good news continues, here:

 

 

 

Cue the remainers trying to turn that into bad news...

When you are driving towards a cliff, everything is fine and level until the moment you go over the edge.

[Guided Missile]

“I think Brexit will lead to lower taxes in the UK but higher taxes in the EU.”

 

INVESTMENT BANKER BASED IN FRANKFURT

[shurlock]

“I think Brexit will lead to lower taxes in the UK but higher taxes in the EU.”

 

INVESTMENT BANKER BASED IN FRANKFURT

 

 

Is there anything about this one, anonymous investment banker we should know or care about, Misselbrook?

 

#anecdotesfordummies

Edited 13 September, 2017 by shurlock

[badgerx16]

“I think Brexit will lead to lower taxes in the UK but higher taxes in the EU.”

 

INVESTMENT BANKER BASED IN FRANKFURT

 

"Random unattributed opinion used to support one side of a debate", RANDOM SOUTHAMPTON SUPPORTER BASED IN LANCASHIRE.

( Why is the attribution capitalised ? Does it make the 'opinion' more valid ? )

Edited 14 September, 2017 by badgerx16

[buctootim]

That’s an atrociously bad report John - competitiveness reports are two a penny, though they’re almost always theoretically and methodologically flawed. Business school and consultancy claptrap. But I guess Yaqub Rees Mogg tweeted about it approvingly, so you dim kipper lemmings have to follow suit.

 

What the drunken plank doesnt realise is that even his own bad report contradicts him. It shows most of the EU exchanges gaining ground on London.

Edited 13 September, 2017 by buctootim

[benjii]

Brexit is a great move.

 

SAYS RINGO STARR

[hypochondriac]

Surprised that people still want to keep the faith with EU given Drunker's speech today. Centralising power, mandating the Euro and cutting off funding for "anti European extremists." Frightening stuff.

[buctootim]

Surprised that people still want to keep the faith with EU given Drunker's speech today. Centralising power, mandating the Euro and cutting off funding for "anti European extremists." Frightening stuff.

 

Not really. Juncker isnt going to get appointed for another term.

[Jonnyboy]

Scud Missile has a self confessed agenda doesn't he?

He gets government handouts and benefits to try to flog his chemicals but the nasty-wasty EU said they were unsafe. I think that's the jist if it.

[hypochondriac]

Not really. Juncker isnt going to get appointed for another term.

But the way the EU works they'll just replace him with the next euro fanatic. The scary thing is how many people in that chamber actually agree with him and his vision for Europe. The answer to brexit was reform and policy change to become more accountable but in the world of the EU they see it as an opportunity for a united States of Europe and to hell with what the people actually want.

[farawaysaint]

But the way the EU works they'll just replace him with the next euro fanatic. The scary thing is how many people in that chamber actually agree with him and his vision for Europe. The answer to brexit was reform and policy change to become more accountable but in the world of the EU they see it as an opportunity for a united States of Europe and to hell with what the people actually want.

 

That's pretty much how the US started in fairness, they turned out OK.

[buctootim]

But the way the EU works they'll just replace him with the next euro fanatic. The scary thing is how many people in that chamber actually agree with him and his vision for Europe. The answer to brexit was reform and policy change to become more accountable but in the world of the EU they see it as an opportunity for a united States of Europe and to hell with what the people actually want.

 

You should have read his speech - especially the part about how national governments push forward with plans but blame the commission if there is any public opposition. Pretty much everything you don't like about the EU has been approved by successive UK governments. If it didnt have UK government support Britain could have vetoed it. We didnt. The EU is a product of what the member states want.

[Guided Missile]

The pound's in the $h!tter then, lads....

 

 

Currency trading? It's a mugs game...

[badgerx16]

BoJo reviving the £350m a week fantasy ;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/boris-johnson-vision-bold-thriving-britain-enabled-brexit/

[John B]

BoJo reviving the £350m a week fantasy ;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/15/boris-johnson-vision-bold-thriving-britain-enabled-brexit/

 

 

 

Boris Johnson wrong because Brexit likely to generate 'net fiscal loss', says IFS

[Guided Missile]

...and the good news post-Brexit keeps coming, here:

 

The UK’s manufacturing industry moved up a spot in the global league table to become the eighth largest in the world, according to the latest available data. British manufacturing is now worth $249bn (£185bn) every year, according to United Nations data collected by the EEF, a manufacturers’ lobby group. The UK leapfrogged France in the ranking, with only Germany and Italy manufacturing more in 2015 among European countries.

 

Up yours, Delors....

[moonraker]

...and the good news post-Brexit keeps coming, here:

 

 

 

Up yours, Delors....

 

Grasping at straws again. Brexiteers should be more concerned about the car carsh that is the Tory Governemnt and its totally lack of unity and focus at the most important time in our history since 1945.

[OldNick]

Grasping at straws again. Brexiteers should be more concerned about the car carsh that is the Tory Governemnt and its totally lack of unity and focus at the most important time in our history since 1945.

oh come on, all the parties have in fighting, it is just as the Tories are in power and so the press are rebel rousing. There are plenty of divisions in the Labour party but that is suppressed as it looks like Corbyn may gain them power. Had they lost the election in a bad way they would still be going for his throat