Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[shurlock]

You either have a free trade deal or you don't. The EU quickly recognised that the only way they can hit us without hurting their trade would be through a Brexit bill and that is why it is the main theme.

 

We will have a lot more flexibility to do our own deals. We are quite a big economy and people really will want to speak to us.

 

So what -some FTAs are better than others and indeed the evidence points to the benefits of FTAs being overstated. Do provide examples where they have made substantive headway on trade in services which is critical to the UK. You're tragically confused if you think a FTA will be as good as being in the EU.

Edited 27 April, 2017 by shurlock

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Where? You're a walking cliche, so most of your objections have been addressed ad nauseum on here.

 

I pointed out to you on your request why people perceive the EU as being a dictatorship and you opted not to contest it. I also explained what the of a report on the positive impact of immigration on the UK - the one written by the John Van Reenen who it turned out worked for the EU commission. You asked for an answer and did not contest that either.

[shurlock]

I pointed out to you on your request why people perceive the EU as being a dictatorship and you opted not to contest it. I also explained what the of a report on the positive impact of immigration on the UK - the one written by the John Van Reenen who it turned out worked for the EU commission. You asked for an answer and did not contest that either.

 

Both those questions have been answered at length on here, in response other kippers who all appear to spout the same uninformed ****. Go back and have a look. Thanks for the further proof that you're a walking cliche.

Edited 27 April, 2017 by shurlock

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Both those questions have been answered at length on here, in response other kippers who all appear to spout the same uninformed ****. Go back and have a look. Thanks for the further proof that you're a walking cliche.

 

Well you asked the question and then failed to reply so you can read into it how you want.

 

Anyway Shurlock I am opting out here. You can call me what you want but the way you style your debate on here provides plenty of insight into you.

[buctootim]

For a divided rabble who will fall apart in negotiations under the might of the British Brexit team its odd that they only needed 15 minutes to agree their strategy - no trade talks until the bill is settled and the rights of EU citizens clarified. Im sure May told us that wouldn't happen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39755124

[Verbal]

For a divided rabble who will fall apart in negotiations under the might of the British Brexit team its odd that they only needed 15 minutes to agree their strategy - no trade talks until the bill is settled and the rights of EU citizens clarified. Im sure May told us that wouldn't happen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39755124

 

This is something of a trope among the Brexiteers - the belief that the EU is unable to coordinate anything on anything and is constantly on the brink of collapse (see Grexit, Deutsche Bank, the Italian banks, the Euro itself, ad nauseum).

 

It must be such a surprise to the cult that the EU 27 are united and in the shot-calling seat.

[solentstars]

This is something of a trope among the Brexiteers - the belief that the EU is unable to coordinate anything on anything and is constantly on the brink of collapse (see Grexit, Deutsche Bank, the Italian banks, the Euro itself, ad nauseum).

 

It must be such a surprise to the cult that the EU 27 are united and in the shot-calling seat.

agree they hold all the cards but i still think they want to give the uk a deal but not as good has we had being a full member so expect may will backtrack after the election and isolate the rabid right dreamers in her party.

[OldNick]

My take on the elction is that TM would like a large majority, when she comes back with a watered down deal with Europe she doesnt have to worry if some of the hardened anti Europe mp's cant vote the deal down.

[aintforever]

My take on the elction is that TM would like a large majority, when she comes back with a watered down deal with Europe she doesnt have to worry if some of the hardened anti Europe mp's cant vote the deal down.

 

I don't get that, the Tories are most pro Brexit so surely more Tories mean harder brexit?

[CB Fry]

I don't get that, the Tories are most pro Brexit so surely more Tories mean harder brexit?

Did you sleep through the referendum then?

[aintforever]

Did you sleep through the referendum then?

 

Clearly you did.

[CB Fry]

Clearly you did.

 

You missed the majority of Conservative MPs including the then and also the current Prime Minister campaigning for Remain, then?

 

It's pretty flaming obvious why May needs a stonking majority. She needs insurance against the swivel eyed nutjob Brexiteers when she has to make concessions and sell the best deal she can get back to parliament.

[aintforever]

You missed the majority of Conservative MPs including the then and also the current Prime Minister campaigning for Remain, then?

 

It's pretty flaming obvious why May needs a stonking majority. She needs insurance against the swivel eyed nutjob Brexiteers when she has to make concessions and sell the best deal she can get back to parliament.

 

Wasn't it 130 odd Tories to Labour's 10 or so backing Brexit? The Lib Dems and SNP all remain.

 

Yeah, clearly it's more Tories we want for a softer Brexit.

[CB Fry]

Wasn't it 130 odd Tories to Labour's 10 or so backing Brexit? The Lib Dems and SNP all remain.

 

Yeah, clearly it's more Tories we want for a softer Brexit.

May needs a bigger majority so she isn't held to ransom by her own lunatic fringe. More Tory MPs mean more soft Brexit support in the same way a majority of Conservative MPs supported remain. Pretty basic stuff. Utterly beyond you of course.

[aintforever]

May needs a bigger majority so she isn't held to ransom by her own lunatic fringe. More Tory MPs mean more soft Brexit support in the same way a majority of Conservative MPs supported remain. Pretty basic stuff. Utterly beyond you of course.

 

You do understand that Tories are more pro Brexit than the other MPs right?

 

labour, Lib Dem and SNP are way way more likely to favour a softer Brexit - how is that a difficult concept to grasp?

[CB Fry]

You do understand that Tories are more pro Brexit than the other MPs right?

 

labour, Lib Dem and SNP are way way more likely to favour a softer Brexit - how is that a difficult concept to grasp?

As I said, it's completely beyond you.

[aintforever]

As I said, it's completely beyond you.

 

So, conservatives are way more likely to want Brexit so the more we have in Parliament the softer the Brexit. OK, that makes sense.

 

All these Tories supported Brexit apparently: Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Theresa Villiers, John Whittingdale, James Duddridge, George Eustice, Mark Francois, Andrea Leadsom, Priti Patel, Dominic Raab, James Wharton, Penny Mordaunt, Julian Brazier, Mike Penning, Desmond Swayne, Justin Tomlinson, Nigel Adams, Adam Afriyie, Lucy Allan, David Amess, Stuart Andrew,

Richard Bacon, Steve Baker, John Baron, Bob Blackman, Victoria Borwick, Graham Brady, Andrew Bridgen, Fiona Bruce, Peter Bone, Conor Burns, David Burrowes, William Cash, Maria Caulfield, Christopher Chope, James Cleverly, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Cox, Chris Davies, David Davies, James Davies, Mims Davies, Philip Davies, David Davis, Nadine Dorries, Steve Double, Richard Drax, Nigel Evans, Michael Fabricant, Marcus Fysh, Liam Fox, Richard Fuller, Nusrat Ghani, Zac Goldsmith, Cheryl Gillan, James Gray, Chris Green,Rebecca Harris, Gordon Henderson, Chris Heaton-Harris, Philip Hollobone, Adam Holloway, Kris Hopkins, Gerald Howarth, Stewart Jackson, Ranil Jayawardena, Bernard Jenkin, Andrea Jenkyns, Boris Johnson, Jonathan Lord, Gareth Johnson, David Jones, Daniel Kawczynski, Greg Knight, Kwasi Kwarteng, Edward Leigh, Jack Lopresti, Peter Lilley, Julian Lewis, Tim Loughton, Karen Lumley, Jason McCartney, Karl McCartney, Stephen McPartland, Stephen Phillips, Craig Mackinlay, Anne Main, Scott Mann, Anne Marie Morris, Sheryll Murray, Andrew Murrison, David Nuttall, Owen Paterson, Andrew Percy, Tom Pursglove, Will Quince, John Redwood, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Laurence Robertson, Andrew Rosindell, Paul Scully, Henry Smith, Royston Smith, Andrew Stephenson, Iain Stewart, Robert Syms, Kelly Tolhurst, Michael Tomlinson, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, Rishi Sunak, Andrew Turner, Craig Tracey, Martin Vickers, Charles Walker, David Warburton, Heather Wheeler, Bill Wiggin, William Wragg, Nadhim Zahawi, Stephen Barclay, Henry Bellingham, Andrew Bingham, Suella Fernandes, Nigel Mills, Matthew Offord, Julian Sturdy, Derek Thomas, Mike Wood, Kit Malthouse, John Hayes, Crispin Blunt, Rehman Chishti, Glyn Davies, Paul Maynard, Christopher Pincher, Eleanor Laing, Pauline Latham, Charlotte Leslie, Ian Liddell-Grainger, Bob Stewart, Caroline Ansell.

 

Feel free to post the list of labour and lib dems...

Edited 29 April, 2017 by aintforever

[CB Fry]

So, conservatives are way more likely to want Brexit so the more we have in Parliament the softer the Brexit. OK, that makes sense.

You can make stuff up if you like.

 

As I said, beyond you.

[aintforever]

You can make stuff up if you like.

 

As I said, beyond you.

 

 

All these Tories supported Brexit apparently: Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Theresa Villiers, John Whittingdale, James Duddridge, George Eustice, Mark Francois, Andrea Leadsom, Priti Patel, Dominic Raab, James Wharton, Penny Mordaunt, Julian Brazier, Mike Penning, Desmond Swayne, Justin Tomlinson, Nigel Adams, Adam Afriyie, Lucy Allan, David Amess, Stuart Andrew,

Richard Bacon, Steve Baker, John Baron, Bob Blackman, Victoria Borwick, Graham Brady, Andrew Bridgen, Fiona Bruce, Peter Bone, Conor Burns, David Burrowes, William Cash, Maria Caulfield, Christopher Chope, James Cleverly, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Cox, Chris Davies, David Davies, James Davies, Mims Davies, Philip Davies, David Davis, Nadine Dorries, Steve Double, Richard Drax, Nigel Evans, Michael Fabricant, Marcus Fysh, Liam Fox, Richard Fuller, Nusrat Ghani, Zac Goldsmith, Cheryl Gillan, James Gray, Chris Green,Rebecca Harris, Gordon Henderson, Chris Heaton-Harris, Philip Hollobone, Adam Holloway, Kris Hopkins, Gerald Howarth, Stewart Jackson, Ranil Jayawardena, Bernard Jenkin, Andrea Jenkyns, Boris Johnson, Jonathan Lord, Gareth Johnson, David Jones, Daniel Kawczynski, Greg Knight, Kwasi Kwarteng, Edward Leigh, Jack Lopresti, Peter Lilley, Julian Lewis, Tim Loughton, Karen Lumley, Jason McCartney, Karl McCartney, Stephen McPartland, Stephen Phillips, Craig Mackinlay, Anne Main, Scott Mann, Anne Marie Morris, Sheryll Murray, Andrew Murrison, David Nuttall, Owen Paterson, Andrew Percy, Tom Pursglove, Will Quince, John Redwood, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Laurence Robertson, Andrew Rosindell, Paul Scully, Henry Smith, Royston Smith, Andrew Stephenson, Iain Stewart, Robert Syms, Kelly Tolhurst, Michael Tomlinson, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, Rishi Sunak, Andrew Turner, Craig Tracey, Martin Vickers, Charles Walker, David Warburton, Heather Wheeler, Bill Wiggin, William Wragg, Nadhim Zahawi, Stephen Barclay, Henry Bellingham, Andrew Bingham, Suella Fernandes, Nigel Mills, Matthew Offord, Julian Sturdy, Derek Thomas, Mike Wood, Kit Malthouse, John Hayes, Crispin Blunt, Rehman Chishti, Glyn Davies, Paul Maynard, Christopher Pincher, Eleanor Laing, Pauline Latham, Charlotte Leslie, Ian Liddell-Grainger, Bob Stewart, Caroline Ansell.

 

Feel free to post the list of labour and lib dems...

[CB Fry]

All these Tories supported Brexit apparently: Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Theresa Villiers, John Whittingdale, James Duddridge, George Eustice, Mark Francois, Andrea Leadsom, Priti Patel, Dominic Raab, James Wharton, Penny Mordaunt, Julian Brazier, Mike Penning, Desmond Swayne, Justin Tomlinson, Nigel Adams, Adam Afriyie, Lucy Allan, David Amess, Stuart Andrew,

Richard Bacon, Steve Baker, John Baron, Bob Blackman, Victoria Borwick, Graham Brady, Andrew Bridgen, Fiona Bruce, Peter Bone, Conor Burns, David Burrowes, William Cash, Maria Caulfield, Christopher Chope, James Cleverly, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Cox, Chris Davies, David Davies, James Davies, Mims Davies, Philip Davies, David Davis, Nadine Dorries, Steve Double, Richard Drax, Nigel Evans, Michael Fabricant, Marcus Fysh, Liam Fox, Richard Fuller, Nusrat Ghani, Zac Goldsmith, Cheryl Gillan, James Gray, Chris Green,Rebecca Harris, Gordon Henderson, Chris Heaton-Harris, Philip Hollobone, Adam Holloway, Kris Hopkins, Gerald Howarth, Stewart Jackson, Ranil Jayawardena, Bernard Jenkin, Andrea Jenkyns, Boris Johnson, Jonathan Lord, Gareth Johnson, David Jones, Daniel Kawczynski, Greg Knight, Kwasi Kwarteng, Edward Leigh, Jack Lopresti, Peter Lilley, Julian Lewis, Tim Loughton, Karen Lumley, Jason McCartney, Karl McCartney, Stephen McPartland, Stephen Phillips, Craig Mackinlay, Anne Main, Scott Mann, Anne Marie Morris, Sheryll Murray, Andrew Murrison, David Nuttall, Owen Paterson, Andrew Percy, Tom Pursglove, Will Quince, John Redwood, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Laurence Robertson, Andrew Rosindell, Paul Scully, Henry Smith, Royston Smith, Andrew Stephenson, Iain Stewart, Robert Syms, Kelly Tolhurst, Michael Tomlinson, Anne-Marie Trevelyan, Rishi Sunak, Andrew Turner, Craig Tracey, Martin Vickers, Charles Walker, David Warburton, Heather Wheeler, Bill Wiggin, William Wragg, Nadhim Zahawi, Stephen Barclay, Henry Bellingham, Andrew Bingham, Suella Fernandes, Nigel Mills, Matthew Offord, Julian Sturdy, Derek Thomas, Mike Wood, Kit Malthouse, John Hayes, Crispin Blunt, Rehman Chishti, Glyn Davies, Paul Maynard, Christopher Pincher, Eleanor Laing, Pauline Latham, Charlotte Leslie, Ian Liddell-Grainger, Bob Stewart, Caroline Ansell.

 

Feel free to post the list of labour and lib dems...

As I said, beyond you.

[John B]

Mrs May and her team of incompetents not Duckhunter or Wes seem to be doing very well in cocking up Brexit

 

See this Remarkable thread. Juncker's team now think it more likely Brexit talks will collapse than not.

…

[Verbal]

Mrs May and her team of incompetents not Duckhunter or Wes seem to be doing very well in cocking up Brexit

 

See this Remarkable thread. Juncker's team now think it more likely Brexit talks will collapse than not.

…

 

That thread is doing the rounds because it's staggering - a damning insight into the true character flaws of May, which are being imposed on the Brexit negotiations. The worst of it is that May has now sidelined Oliver Robbins, the senior diplomat who was supposed to be the key British negotiator for May's agenda.

 

This means (a) that no one on the EU side has any idea who to talk to in trying to get talks moving; (b) May still can't grasp the complexity and scale of what's needed to achieve agreement by March 2019, and has no one in a position of sufficient influence to save her from herself; and ©, worst of all, the negotiations have reached a deadlock before they've barely begun, all of because May's ignorance of the other side's red lines and its unanimity.

 

Control freakery and micro-management are all survivable if the control freak has a grasp of the brief. May doesn't - and Britain is headed for a 'no deal' Brexit which will leave us with worse UK/EU trading conditions that pretty much every other country in the world barring N Korea (even Turkey has a detailed customs union agreement with the EU).

 

I'll say again, if the Brexit cult are serious about wanting to leave the EU, they should be very worried about May.

[shurlock]

Cue stories about being Juncker being an alchy- was he on the red or white vino that night?

 

Or they might just go down the tony parsons route:

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/TonyParsonsUK/status/858995006648066049

Edited 1 May, 2017 by shurlock

[aintforever]

As I said before, there is not a cat in hells chance of a deal being done in two years, might as well just start preparing for WTO rules.

[OldNick]

Mrs May and her team of incompetents not Duckhunter or Wes seem to be doing very well in cocking up Brexit

 

See this Remarkable thread. Juncker's team now think it more likely Brexit talks will collapse than not.

…

have you only just realised that??? Go back in my posts at the start and you will see me saying the sameIt took 7 years for the EU to negotiate a trade deal with Canada, so it was never going to take only 2 in something so complex as us leaving.

[buctootim]

Very good article here about why Brexit will be far more legally complex than May thinks- and why her statements frequently contradict themselves. You cant have international agreements without some kind of international court to rule on disputes.

 

Helena Kennedy is a QC and member of the House of Lords

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/03/theresa-may-cut-and-run-europe-illegal-trade-deal-another-galaxy

[benjii]

Very good article here about why Brexit will be far more legally complex than May thinks- and why her statements frequently contradict themselves. You cant have international agreements without some kind of international court to rule on disputes.

 

Helena Kennedy is a QC and member of the House of Lords

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/03/theresa-may-cut-and-run-europe-illegal-trade-deal-another-galaxy

 

There's a lot of unsaid stuff there though.

 

You can have reciprocal enforcement arrangements through other means; EU institutions, such as the courts, aren't the be-all-and-end all. International arbitration is enforced through a system of treaties, for example. http://www.newyorkconvention.org/

 

It's a misleading article, which suggests cross-border cooperation or trade with the EU is impossible without acceding to EU courts. That simply isn't true. It might be the simplest way, and it might be the way imposed upon EEA members, but it is not the case that there is no other way.

 

I would strongly take contention with the suggestion that the article is "very good".

[benjii]

In fact, I would say it is deliberately misleading and a ****e article.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Very good article here about why Brexit will be far more legally complex than May thinks- and why her statements frequently contradict themselves. You cant have international agreements without some kind of international court to rule on disputes.

 

Helena Kennedy is a QC and member of the House of Lords

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/03/theresa-may-cut-and-run-europe-illegal-trade-deal-another-galaxy

 

It's great that you know what Theresa May thinks, perhaps you could let us know how she thinks the election is going.

 

She's not Diane Abbott, I'm sure she's completely aware that trade deals need some kind of court. Perhaps you could point us to any quotes where she says there won't be one.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[buctootim]

It's a misleading article, which suggests cross-border cooperation or trade with the EU is impossible without acceding to EU courts. .

 

Thats an odd interpretation. Its doesnt say that at all. It simply points out that you have to have international courts if you want international agreements and co-operation - otherwise there is no mechanism to deal with disputes.

 

We have existing commitments and any disputes about them are regulated by the bodies set up to deal with them - ie EU institution courts. We may subsequently leave the EU but that wont make the need for international courts go away unless wse withdraw from all contact with the world.

[buctootim]

I'm sure she's completely aware that trade deals need some kind of court. Perhaps you could point us to any quotes where she says there won't be one.

 

I hope she is. Take back control and all that. Its all she's banged on about for nearly a year. I'd hate to think she was misleading us.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-full/

[benjii]

Thats an odd interpretation. Its doesnt say that at all. It simply points out that you have to have international courts if you want international agreements and co-operation - otherwise there is no mechanism to deal with disputes.

 

We have existing commitments and any disputes about them are regulated by the bodies set up to deal with them - ie EU institution courts. We may subsequently leave the EU but that wont make the need for international courts go away unless wse withdraw from all contact with the world.

 

If her point is simply to state the obvious truism that agreements need an enforcement mechanism then, yeah, she's right.

 

But the whole tone of the piece and her obvious implied subtext is that May is dropping a massive legal bollock by turning away from the ECJ - but that's simply not necessarily the case.

[buctootim]

If her point is simply to state the obvious truism that agreements need an enforcement mechanism then, yeah, she's right.

 

But the whole tone of the piece and her obvious implied subtext is that May is dropping a massive legal bollock by turning away from the ECJ - but that's simply not necessarily the case.

 

No the point is that May has been saying, untruthfully, that by leaving the EU you give primacy back to the British courts. That is untrue, for international matters international courts will continue to have primacy.

[benjii]

No the point is that May has been saying, untruthfully, that by leaving the EU you give primacy back to the British courts. That is untrue, for international matters international courts will continue to have primacy.

 

It's not untrue. The ECJ is currently the top court in the UK.

 

If the ECJ is the nominated enforcement body for some bi-lateral agreements we enter into or for any legacy arrangements we retain then that is quite a different function altogether.

[buctootim]

It's not untrue. The ECJ is currently the top court in the UK.

 

If the ECJ is the nominated enforcement body for some bi-lateral agreements we enter into or for any legacy arrangements we retain then that is quite a different function altogether.

 

So the Supreme Court will be the UK's supreme court? (except for the European Court of Justice, the European Court of Human Rights, the International Court of Justice, the International Criminal Court, the General Council of the WTO and the International Tribunal for the Laws of the Sea). We got control back. phew

[benjii]

So the Supreme Court will be the UK's supreme court? (except for the European Court of Justice, the European Court of Human Rights, the International Court of Justice, the International Criminal Court, the General Council of the WTO and the International Tribunal for the Laws of the Sea). We got control back. phew

 

The Supreme Court is currently, by operation of law, subject to the ECJ and EU law and all domestic law needs to be consistent with EU law or it can be challenged.

 

On exiting the EU, that won't be the case, other than for matters where we agree it ought to be.

 

Simple as that. There's nothing to be condescending about here and listing a bunch of other supra-national conventions / forums is neither here nor there.

[buctootim]

The Supreme Court is currently, by operation of law, subject to the ECJ and EU law and all domestic law needs to be consistent with EU law or it can be challenged.

 

On exiting the EU, that won't be the case, other than for matters where we agree it ought to be.

 

Simple as that. There's nothing to be condescending about here and listing a bunch of other supra-national conventions / forums is neither here nor there.

 

Im not being condescending. I respect your opinion. I was however mildly sarcastic, big difference. The irony is that the definitive decision on whether or not the ECJ was supreme in the UK was freely given a by a British Court.

 

Theresa May's tactics are to claim victory by declaring we will break free of the tyrannical ECJ, ra ra go Britain - but then opt back in on a piecemeal basis. That isnt going to work, as this article explains and she has been told repeatedly by Merkel, Tusk and Juncker. Its a myth (lie) designed solely to get her elected and buy her more time in the hope something will miraculously turn up before she has to sign up to the Norway deal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/27/cherry-picking-worked-theresa-may-home-office-wont-save-brexit/

[benjii]

Im not being condescending. I respect your opinion. I was however mildly sarcastic, big difference. The irony is that the definitive decision on whether or not the ECJ was supreme in the UK was freely given a by a British Court.

 

Theresa May's tactics are to claim victory by declaring we will break free of the tyrannical ECJ, ra ra go Britain - but then opt back in on a piecemeal basis. That isnt going to work, as this article explains and she has been told repeatedly by Merkel, Tusk and Juncker. Its a myth (lie) designed solely to get her elected and buy her more time in the hope something will miraculously turn up before she has to sign up to the Norway deal.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/27/cherry-picking-worked-theresa-may-home-office-wont-save-brexit/

 

That's utter nonsense.

 

Removing ECJ direct sovereignty over UK courts is a clear consequence of leaving the EU. It's the de facto starting point, pending agreement of something else. No other leader could have it any differently.

 

She has three options:

 

- ignore the referendum;

- immediately declare that we want to participate via the EEA / EFTA (ie. do a "Norway");

- maintain a firm-line and see what piecemeal arrangements can be negotiated.

 

She's doing option 3 at the moment and it's not some great lie to talk about a reclamation of sovereignty in that context.

[buctootim]

That's utter nonsense.

 

Removing ECJ direct sovereignty over UK courts is a clear consequence of leaving the EU. It's the de facto starting point, pending agreement of something else. No other leader could have it any differently.

 

She has three options:

 

- ignore the referendum;

- immediately declare that we want to participate via the EEA / EFTA (ie. do a "Norway");

- maintain a firm-line and see what piecemeal arrangements can be negotiated.

 

She's doing option 3 at the moment and it's not some great lie to talk about a reclamation of sovereignty in that context.

 

Its a lie if you know, or should know because you've been told repeatedly, its not achievable. Lets be charitable and call it 'economical with the actualite'.

[benjii]

Its a lie if you know, or should know because you've been told repeatedly, its not achievable. Lets be charitable and call it 'economical with the actualite'.

 

You don't know if it's achievable. Neither does May. It's under negotiation; that's the point. It would be hideously naïve to say otherwise. But, as noted, the simple fact of the matter is that in the absence of agreement to the contrary, a departure from the EU returns supremacy over domestic law to the UK courts.

 

You really think the EU will say it's an absolute "all or nothing"? They won't want to do piecemeal deals on security, for example? There is clearly an appetite for some negotiation and both sides will make concessions.

 

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about how negotiation works amongst various commentators.

[buctootim]

You don't know if it's achievable. Neither does May. It's under negotiation; that's the point. It would be hideously naïve to say otherwise. But, as noted, the simple fact of the matter is that in the absence of agreement to the contrary, a departure from the EU returns supremacy over domestic law to the UK courts.

 

You really think the EU will say it's an absolute "all or nothing"? They won't want to do piecemeal deals on security, for example? There is clearly an appetite for some negotiation and both sides will make concessions.

 

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about how negotiation works amongst various commentators.

 

Its a tactic - raise expectations to unrealistic levels and then blame Brussels when you dont get what was never achievable anyway.

 

If you understand negotiation you should know you wont get what the other party cant give you. And they cant give Britain an ala la carte deal which is better than EU membership because that would cause the whole union and single market to fall apart as everybody tried to get their own pick and mix.

Edited 3 May, 2017 by buctootim

[benjii]

I don't think anyone's asking for a "better deal" viz-a-viz the EU than its members get. The UK government has already accepted that, hence the position that we will have to leave the Single Market, for example. I'm sure no one really wants to lose all the benefits of the Single Market but we have accepted, at this stage, the apparent EU line-in-the-sand that you must accept all the freedoms in full to be a member. Accepting free movement of people is interpreted as contrary to the referendum result (rightly or wrongly) so we accept the position and declare ourselves "out".

 

May's task is very difficult; I think some of the commentary is simply unfair and people are importing too much domestic politicking into the process. She has to, currently, maintain a position that we can achieve some "wins" otherwise there really is no point with the whole process;-it will amount to nothing other than negotiating exit payments. Maybe that's where it will end-up but she has to try for something better.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Its a myth (lie) designed solely to get her elected and buy her more time in the hope something will miraculously turn up before she has to sign up to the Norway deal. ]

 

Pony . We will not sign up to the Norway deal. It's nonsense to suggest we will

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Batman]

Pony . We will not sign up to the Norway deal. It's nonsense to suggest we will

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

No matter what deal is signed, clearly Tim will suggest it is just like Norway's

[buctootim]

I don't think anyone's asking for a "better deal" viz-a-viz the EU than its members get. The UK government has already accepted that, hence the position that we will have to leave the Single Market, for example. I'm sure no one really wants to lose all the benefits of the Single Market but we have accepted, at this stage, the apparent EU line-in-the-sand that you must accept all the freedoms in full to be a member. Accepting free movement of people is interpreted as contrary to the referendum result (rightly or wrongly) so we accept the position and declare ourselves "out".

 

May's task is very difficult; I think some of the commentary is simply unfair and people are importing too much domestic politicking into the process. She has to, currently, maintain a position that we can achieve some "wins" otherwise there really is no point with the whole process;-it will amount to nothing other than negotiating exit payments. Maybe that's where it will end-up but she has to try for something better.

 

Thats fair comment - but May has made a rod for her own back by, like Cameron before her, raising expectations of what is achievable. If she had said from the outset we will go for EEA membership as an interim stage for 5-10 years whilst we prepare for full 'independence' that would have actually been a workable plan that most would have gone for. Now that would be seen as a massive climbdown.

 

She's tried to out Maggie Maggie but she hasn't got the political nouse or brains to carry it off.

[Jonnyboy]

Out of interest, how's Deutsch Bank doing these days? I'm sure the kippers on the previous referendum thread advised us years ago that Europe would be completely bankrupt and in a state of pure chaos by 2017.

[buctootim]

Out of interest, how's Deutsch Bank doing these days? I'm sure the kippers on the previous referendum thread advised us years ago that Europe would be completely bankrupt and in a state of pure chaos by 2017.

 

Just waiting to go pop Jonny. Trillions in debt they are. Starvation across the EU followed buy cholera and revolution I tell thee. Brexit is the only answer.

[shurlock]

Just waiting to go pop Jonny. Trillions in debt they are. Starvation across the EU followed buy cholera and revolution I tell thee. Brexit is the only answer.

 

What with the Dutch, French and German elections and the coming populist rout, this was finally the year when the terminally ill and morbidly obese EU was put out of its misery.

 

Wonder what will last longer the UK or the EU?

 

@Trident- it's been a great year to be long European equities :lol:

[buctootim]

What with the Dutch, French and German elections and the coming populist rout, this was finally the year when the terminally ill and morbidly obese EU was put out of its misery.

 

Wonder what will last longer the UK or the EU?

 

@Trident- it's been a great year to be long European equities :lol:

 

Eurozone growth of 0.5% in Q1 versus an anaemic 0.3% in Britain and 0.2% in the US.

http://www.economist.com/news/business-and-finance/21721557-first-quarter-figures-probably-overstate-gap-between-two

[Verbal]

This extra leverage that May thinks she's going to get from having an inevitably thumping Parliamentary majority is going to work wonders in bringing the EU to heel.

 

This would be the same EU that fell straight into line when Syriza went and collected its own thumping majority in Greece, and then ended up with a worse deal than the one on offer before their election.

 

That showed 'em.