Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Where has your freedom ended?

It ends at an EU border.

[a1ex2001]

2 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Where has your freedom ended?

All of us lost freedom to work and live in the EU the day Brexit happened and as of next year will have to pay £7 every time we want to even visit on holiday.

[Farmer Saint]

My word, is there still a debate as to whether Brexit was a good thing? I think the evidence whether that be financial, geo-political, cultural, immigration or anything else has shown it to be an unmitigated disaster. 

I'm assuming those still arguing are on a windup because they would need to provide evidence of what's improved to backup those statements, and there is nothing. We didn't even get out of the new fucking bottle caps that are now the bane of everyday life. 

[The Kraken]

I was reading the other day about how catered chalet ski holidays have demised so much since Brexit. Previously thousands of young adults did a ski season by working for a major tour operator. I myself did a couple of winter seasons, not in a chalet but definitely one of my better life experiences. These days most of the tour operators stipulate they’ll only employ EU passport holders. The working window is less than 6 months and the costs/risks to get visas sorted just doesn’t stack up. As such the catered chalet has become a rarity, and getting other jobs in the mountains has become much trickier. It was an industry dominated by Brit holiday makers but has become so much more difficult to staff it with Brit youngsters, so they’re recruiting from around Europe instead. Such a shame. The hope was always that a simple temporary visa scheme would be set up to replicate the previous arrangement but of course that didn’t happen.

[The Kraken]

4 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

All of us lost freedom to work and live in the EU the day Brexit happened and as of next year will have to pay £7 every time we want to even visit on holiday.

It’s not actually £7 a trip, it’s £7 for ETIAS which lasts for 3 years. But nonetheless it’s another Brexit benefit to add to the list. EES coming in this November.

[badgerx16]

13 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

It’s not actually £7 a trip, it’s £7 for ETIAS which lasts for 3 years. But nonetheless it’s another Brexit benefit to add to the list. EES coming in this November.

3 years or until the expiry of your passport.

[buctootim]

27 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

I was reading the other day about how catered chalet ski holidays have demised so much since Brexit. Previously thousands of young adults did a ski season by working for a major tour operator. I myself did a couple of winter seasons, not in a chalet but definitely one of my better life experiences. These days most of the tour operators stipulate they’ll only employ EU passport holders. The working window is less than 6 months and the costs/risks to get visas sorted just doesn’t stack up. As such the catered chalet has become a rarity, and getting other jobs in the mountains has become much trickier. It was an industry dominated by Brit holiday makers but has become so much more difficult to staff it with Brit youngsters, so they’re recruiting from around Europe instead. Such a shame. The hope was always that a simple temporary visa scheme would be set up to replicate the previous arrangement but of course that didn’t happen.

Exactly. A bunch of my friends spent a gap year before university bulb planting in Netherlands, grape, strawberry and olive picking in Italy and France and renting out canoes in Croatia - a free tour of Europe, free accommodation and some money in your pocket. My daughter's gap year is working in a care home just to pay for a three week holiday instead.  I know who got the better experience. 

I'll probably retire to France at some point (thanks to access to a Irish passport) - sell my house here, buy a better one for half the cost and use the banked money for a good retirement.

Those two beginning and end of life perks alone made the EU well worth it, apart from all the trade and other benefits.        

Edited August 22 by buctootim

[rallyboy]

No Brexiteer should be moaning about these changes, they voted to be outside the EU and we are, with all the additional costs, complications and economic damage that entails.

Anyone who is surprised about this clearly didn't grasp what they were actually voting for and may be too stubborn and proud to admit that they were conned.

But they are victims of a scam and should be treated as such, it's not their fault.

 

 

[The Kraken]

4 minutes ago, rallyboy said:

No Brexiteer should be moaning about these changes, they voted to be outside the EU and we are, with all the additional costs, complications and economic damage that entails.

Anyone who is surprised about this clearly didn't grasp what they were actually voting for and may be too stubborn and proud to admit that they were conned.

But they are victims of a scam and should be treated as such, it's not their fault.

We have to consider the differing perceptions though. While I have demonstrated my contempt for loss of freedom of movement and quoted just one minor nature of my first hand experience , others may see it as a genuine Brexit benefit as it means that we’re not at the mercy of those foreigners coming over here ever summer and picking our strawberries. The fruit picking job market for UK nationals is at an all time high. 

[sadoldgit]

55 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

My word, is there still a debate as to whether Brexit was a good thing? I think the evidence whether that be financial, geo-political, cultural, immigration or anything else has shown it to be an unmitigated disaster. 

I'm assuming those still arguing are on a windup because they would need to provide evidence of what's improved to backup those statements, and there is nothing. We didn't even get out of the new fucking bottle caps that are now the bane of everyday life. 

Only for those who don’t know how to use the new caps.

[sadoldgit]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/20/uk-citizens-travelling-to-eu-next-summer-will-have-to-pay-7-visa-waiver-charge

[badgerx16]

9 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/20/uk-citizens-travelling-to-eu-next-summer-will-have-to-pay-7-visa-waiver-charge

Do you ever read back 1 page on a thread to work out what is currently being discussed ?

[whelk]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Do you ever read back 1 page on a thread to work out what is currently being discussed ?

It like he thinks we can’t find our way to news items. Really helpful link to help all the posters who have been discussing

[whelk]

45 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

We have to consider the differing perceptions though. While I have demonstrated my contempt for loss of freedom of movement and quoted just one minor nature of my first hand experience , others may see it as a genuine Brexit benefit as it means that we’re not at the mercy of those foreigners coming over here ever summer and picking our strawberries. The fruit picking job market for UK nationals is at an all time high. 

TBF the thick cunts in Stoke aren’t ever going to be working a season in Courchevel. Probably see it as elitist

[whelk]

57 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Exactly. A bunch of my friends spent a gap year before university bulb planting in Netherlands, grape, strawberry and olive picking in Italy and France and renting out canoes in Croatia - a free tour of Europe, free accommodation and some money in your pocket. My daughter's gap year is working in a care home just to pay for a three week holiday instead.  I know who got the better experience. 

I'll probably retire to France at some point (thanks to access to a Irish passport) - sell my house here, buy a better one for half the cost and use the banked money for a good retirement.

Those two beginning and end of life perks alone made the EU well worth it, apart from all the trade and other benefits.        

I know so many who seem to have access to an EU passport so no issues with retiring in Europe: I liked the dream of retiring in France or Italy but doubt the missus would ever go for it

[sadoldgit]

15 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Do you ever read back 1 page on a thread to work out what is currently being discussed ?

This article references the way the visa works. Isn’t that is what is being discussed?

[buctootim]

25 minutes ago, whelk said:

I know so many who seem to have access to an EU passport so no issues with retiring in Europe: I liked the dream of retiring in France or Italy but doubt the missus would ever go for it

Even if you dont want to stay away for ever its great to have the flexibility. For example I fancy spending year in the north of Norway, see the Northern lights regularly, lots of log fires and driving in snow and see the Lofoten islands - and then come back. Maybe follow it up with a year in Umbria.     

Edited August 22 by buctootim

[sadoldgit]

15 minutes ago, whelk said:

It like he thinks we can’t find our way to news items. Really helpful link to help all the posters who have been discussing

But you said that you didn’t read the links I post anyway so what is the problem? 
Just another excuse to have a dig?

[whelk]

15 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

But you said that you didn’t read the links I post anyway so what is the problem? 
Just another excuse to have a dig?

I didn’t look at it as already informed about it as would you be if you bothered to read others’ posts but you clearly don’t do that. This place seems like masochist therapy for you rather than being interested in discussing topics. 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

Picking up on some earlier posts, I know educated, intelligent people who accepted the prospect of financial loss, and voted leave.

As it stands now, a number of that group still think it was the right decision.

There's a number who bemoan the way it was prepared for and implemented. But still a few who stand firm that it is still the right way to have gone.

At the time, it was less about slogans on buses for them, than it was dislike of Maastricht; the thought of ever closer union that was being pushed; the consensus approach resulting in us following down that path, and now being given an option to stop it; the adoption of new members that were nowhere near stable enough, threatening economies - Greece for example. There were rumblings about Turkey joining at the time too. No doubt immigration control and sovereignty did come up too, but not for most.

That's off the top of my mind now. There could have been other reasons too. Across most of them, I think an economic agreement would have been preferable, but was not an option, rather than continuing to be closer in so many other areas.

My point being, like a lot of polarising debates, is that by lumping those that don't agree into being a group that's less intelligent, less informed, utterly wrong and other abusive terms, says more about the people making those remarks than those that voted that way. If that's how they are categorised, if that's how they are thought of, what chance is there for constructive dialogue? It's also not true. Like everyone who voted remain had their finger on the pulse of every facet of the EU, as they made their vote.

[Guided Missile]

Meanwhile:

Quote

Germany’s economic woes have deepened after new figures showed a second straight month of contraction. S&P Global’s composite PMI showed a reading of 48.5 for Germany in August, down from 49.1 the previous month and below economists’ forecasts. The downturn was driven by an ongoing crisis in Germany’s dominant manufacturing sector, which has now been in contraction for more than two years. But these troubles have now started to spill over into the services sector, which had otherwise been steady. In a further blow, employment in Europe’s largest economy decreased at the fastest rate in four years as firms expressed less optimism towards growth prospects in the coming year. Dr Cyrus de la Rubia, chief economist at Hamburg Commercial Bank, branded the numbers a “real mess”.

 

[Whitey Grandad]

11 minutes ago, Guided Missile said:

Meanwhile:

 

So what’s your point?

[Guided Missile]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

So what’s your point?

Germany's in the EU, we're not...

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, a1ex2001 said:

All of us lost freedom to work and live in the EU the day Brexit happened and as of next year will have to pay £7 every time we want to even visit on holiday.

Did no Brits live in Spain, France, Germany etc prior to 1972? 
 

Fuck me, £7, that’s it, im starting a rejoin campaign. Fucking wankers didn’t put the £28 a year i’ll lose on the side of a bus, did they 😂

[Gloucester Saint]

1 hour ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Picking up on some earlier posts, I know educated, intelligent people who accepted the prospect of financial loss, and voted leave.

As it stands now, a number of that group still think it was the right decision.

There's a number who bemoan the way it was prepared for and implemented. But still a few who stand firm that it is still the right way to have gone.

At the time, it was less about slogans on buses for them, than it was dislike of Maastricht; the thought of ever closer union that was being pushed; the consensus approach resulting in us following down that path, and now being given an option to stop it; the adoption of new members that were nowhere near stable enough, threatening economies - Greece for example. There were rumblings about Turkey joining at the time too. No doubt immigration control and sovereignty did come up too, but not for most.

That's off the top of my mind now. There could have been other reasons too. Across most of them, I think an economic agreement would have been preferable, but was not an option, rather than continuing to be closer in so many other areas.

My point being, like a lot of polarising debates, is that by lumping those that don't agree into being a group that's less intelligent, less informed, utterly wrong and other abusive terms, says more about the people making those remarks than those that voted that way. If that's how they are categorised, if that's how they are thought of, what chance is there for constructive dialogue? It's also not true. Like everyone who voted remain had their finger on the pulse of every facet of the EU, as they made their vote.

A thoughtful post, in stark contrast to the cut and pastes, and cut and runs, from the OP. 

I also know educated and intelligent people, friends, colleagues who voted leave and were long-time opposed to the EU project. Less so family as several work in the motor trade and knew exactly what it would mean, none of it positive.

I lived with two of them as students, friends then and now. They were less bothered about Maastricht, Lisbon Treaties, but much more concerned with sovereignty, the projection of English exceptionalism, fear of the Euro and not having our own army. Were their minds not already made up, the Turkey joining fib from Penny in the debates latched onto by Farage in the main campaign would have been a clincher.

For others, it was concern over unskilled labour and strain on public services (research rebuts the latter). In Cornwall, simply not enough of the public could see the tangible benefits to their infrastructure that being an Objective 1 area made combined with the fact that there’s an anti-English strand in some of their local culture let alone seeing the benefits of an overseas body having a role in their county (even that’s a controversial word there!). The Tories cleaned us out there (Lib Dems) in 2015 but lost the lot last month as the Cornish can see they have been excluded from the Shared Prosperity Fund replacing many of the former EU regional funds. Over the border, seats such as Totnes (has Brixham in) went yellow on huge swings because the fishing communities could they they’d been misled too.

Freedom of movement was an issue post-A8 expansion Poles were coming here prior to that. Where the frustration has built up on society’s fringes is that the freedom has been curbed for Western Europeans (‘good migration’) but replaced and increased from Asia and beyond. And it was always going to be the case that India (see May’s disastrous visit in 2016) and other major powers the UK was seeking trade deals from were going to be inclusive of some exchanges and mobility of peoples, professionals and dependents. The Leave campaign excluded this from the brochure. 

What a generation of politicians failed to do was promote the benefits of membership beyond the middle classes. The middle classes becoming more squeezed since the referendum by the economic damage caused has and was only going to mean a further decline in services for left-behind areas which were already very inflamed by the impact of austerity they saw as imposed by SE England and London. 

The real winners economically were Crispin Odey and the non-doms running the tabloids as they dodged the forthcoming EU money laundering rules which were due to come in. Family members from mainland EU were abused after the result (there were also plenty of not very bright people voting Leave and the profile was lower end GCSE overall) but they’ve had the last laugh as the skilled jobs have migrated with them. 

Edited August 22 by Gloucester Saint

[The Kraken]

59 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Did no Brits live in Spain, France, Germany etc prior to 1972? 
 

Fuck me, £7, that’s it, im starting a rejoin campaign. Fucking wankers didn’t put the £28 a year i’ll lose on the side of a bus, did they 😂

That’s just a moronic response.

[The Left Back]

1 hour ago, Gloucester Saint said:

A thoughtful post, in stark contrast to the cut and pastes, and cut and runs, from the OP. 

I also know educated and intelligent people, friends, colleagues who voted leave and were long-time opposed to the EU project. Less so family as several work in the motor trade and knew exactly what it would mean, none of it positive.

I lived with two of them as students, friends then and now. They were less bothered about Maastricht, Lisbon Treaties, but much more concerned with sovereignty, the projection of English exceptionalism, fear of the Euro and not having our own army. Were their minds not already made up, the Turkey joining fib from Penny in the debates latched onto by Farage in the main campaign would have been a clincher.

For others, it was concern over unskilled labour and strain on public services (research rebuts the latter). In Cornwall, simply not enough of the public could see the tangible benefits to their infrastructure that being an Objective 1 area made combined with the fact that there’s an anti-English strand in some of their local culture let alone seeing the benefits of an overseas body having a role in their county (even that’s a controversial word there!). The Tories cleaned us out there (Lib Dems) in 2015 but lost the lot last month as the Cornish can see they have been excluded from the Shared Prosperity Fund replacing many of the former EU regional funds. Over the border, seats such as Totnes (has Brixham in) went yellow on huge swings because the fishing communities could they they’d been misled too.

Freedom of movement was an issue post-A8 expansion Poles were coming here prior to that. Where the frustration has built up on society’s fringes is that the freedom has been curbed for Western Europeans (‘good migration’) but replaced and increased from Asia and beyond. And it was always going to be the case that India (see May’s disastrous visit in 2016) and other major powers the UK was seeking trade deals from were going to be inclusive of some exchanges and mobility of peoples, professionals and dependents. The Leave campaign excluded this from the brochure. 

What a generation of politicians failed to do was promote the benefits of membership beyond the middle classes. The middle classes becoming more squeezed since the referendum by the economic damage caused has and was only going to mean a further decline in services for left-behind areas which were already very inflamed by the impact of austerity they saw as imposed by SE England and London. 

The real winners economically were Crispin Odey and the non-doms running the tabloids as they dodged the forthcoming EU money laundering rules which were due to come in. Family members from mainland EU were abused after the result (there were also plenty of not very bright people voting Leave and the profile was lower end GCSE overall) but they’ve had the last laugh as the skilled jobs have migrated with them. 

Another thoughtful post and agree that the one you referenced from H&W was similarly insightful.

My sister and niece both voted to leave.  When I asked them why a year later they both said it was fear of unlimited Turkish people coming over.  Both have since owned up to being misled on that one and having some regrets.  One of my best friends was/is an ardent brexiteer (I was an equally passionate remainer and we've had some tricky conversations since but have survived the experience).  His reasoning was that we don't need two layers of governance.  It's hard enough holding Westminster to account, let alone Brussels.

His point is one that I've more sympathy with.  I suspect many of the people who voted leave were just dissatisfied with 'the establishment' and any chance to vote against it would be taken. I imagine that if they could have voted to scrap the Commons and the Lords in favour of more local power some of them would have chosen that too.   I remember the day after the referendum hearing a very erudite brexiteer phone-in caller explaining that for him the vote was primarily a protest against years/decades of under investment in areas of the country and not so much about anti-foreigner sentiment (except where outsiders seemed to be getting preferential treatment to locals). I think people like this were exploited by hard-right agitators in the recent riots.

By coincidence I got a text from my daughter today (see my post earlier for context) who said ministers are working on a plan to open up free movement for under 30s.  See The Times for more details (you need to get through their pay wall). I'm imagining that's going to go down very well with her and her contemporaries but not so well with the fascerati. 

[The Kraken]

13 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

One of my best friends was/is an ardent brexiteer (I was an equally passionate remainer and we've had some tricky conversations since but have survived the experience).  His reasoning was that we don't need two layers of governance.  It's hard enough holding Westminster to account, let alone Brussels.

His point is one that I've more sympathy with.

On the face it, this is a valid concern to raise.

Where I’d question voting leave because of it is, how many people could point to actual individual EU laws passed that they have problems with?  Otherwise it’s just a “it seems bad” feeling.  Provide a list of EU laws that got through that are bad and got through solely because we didn’t have enough power to hold Brussels to account.  Then it becomes a proper debate.

[badgerx16]

Whether you voted leave or remain, you had to live with the consequences, and what I feel is the worst thing about Brexit has been the absolutely catastrophic post-referendum balls up foisted on us by a series of Tory Governments who had no clue as to what Brexit was intended to be, because the whole thing was built on lies and fairy dust, and Leave.EU probably didn't think, deep down, that they would win.

 

How many people do you know who say " This isn't the Brexit I voted for" ?

Edited August 22 by badgerx16

[The Kraken]

19 minutes ago, The Left Back said:

By coincidence I got a text from my daughter today (see my post earlier for context) who said ministers are working on a plan to open up free movement for under 30s.  See The Times for more details (you need to get through their pay wall). I'm imagining that's going to go down very well with her and her contemporaries but not so well with the fascerati. 

It sounds like the EU are open to it. The Tories rejected a blanket EU arrangement out of hand earlier this year, and Labour said they weren’t onboard with the idea either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68848046

[The Left Back]

49 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

On the face it, this is a valid concern to raise.

Where I’d question voting leave because of it is, how many people could point to actual individual EU laws passed that they have problems with?  Otherwise it’s just a “it seems bad” feeling.  Provide a list of EU laws that got through that are bad and got through solely because we didn’t have enough power to hold Brussels to account.  Then it becomes a proper debate.

I tried that line many a time with my mate and of course he was unable to offer anything.  But his point was more in his guts than his brain.  He is small business owner, allergic to external governance and regulation and just wanted rid of the feeling of being overseen by not one but two institutions.

43 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Whether you voted leave or remain, you had to live with the consequences, and what I feel is the worst thing about Brexit has been the absolutely catastrophic post-referendum balls up foisted on us by a series of Tory Governments who had no clue as to what Brexit was intended to be, because the whole thing was built on lies and fairy dust, and Leave.EU probably didn't think, deep down, that they would win.

 

How many people do you know who say " This isn't the Brexit I voted for" ?

Agree with that.  One of the problems was that neither of the main parties wanted us to leave.  So the power vacuum that was inevitably left ended up being filled by the reluctant, the incompetent and the narcissistic.

[a1ex2001]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Whether you voted leave or remain, you had to live with the consequences, and what I feel is the worst thing about Brexit has been the absolutely catastrophic post-referendum balls up foisted on us by a series of Tory Governments who had no clue as to what Brexit was intended to be, because the whole thing was built on lies and fairy dust, and Leave.EU probably didn't think, deep down, that they would win.

 

How many people do you know who say " This isn't the Brexit I voted for" ?

This is because Brexit was totally undefined either before or during the referendum it was just leave or remain.  Theresa May is entirely responsible for the balls up that followed she drew the red lines on the single market and customs union that even Farage had said was a silly idea before the vote.  I will never ever understand why we didn’t do the sensible thing and have two votes (stayed up front) first to see if people wanted to leave then a follow up once leaving had actually been defined and negotiated to see if we actually still wanted to go through with it knowing the details.  Both referendums should have been binding not advisory so they were subject to full electoral rules which oddly enough don’t allow you to put a lie on the side of a bus or reproduce nazi propaganda posters…

In reality nobody outside of parliament voted for the brexit we got as the people were never given any detail about what they were voting for.

[a1ex2001]

4 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

Picking up on some earlier posts, I know educated, intelligent people who accepted the prospect of financial loss, and voted leave.

As it stands now, a number of that group still think it was the right decision.

There's a number who bemoan the way it was prepared for and implemented. But still a few who stand firm that it is still the right way to have gone.

At the time, it was less about slogans on buses for them, than it was dislike of Maastricht; the thought of ever closer union that was being pushed; the consensus approach resulting in us following down that path, and now being given an option to stop it; the adoption of new members that were nowhere near stable enough, threatening economies - Greece for example. There were rumblings about Turkey joining at the time too. No doubt immigration control and sovereignty did come up too, but not for most.

That's off the top of my mind now. There could have been other reasons too. Across most of them, I think an economic agreement would have been preferable, but was not an option, rather than continuing to be closer in so many other areas.

My point being, like a lot of polarising debates, is that by lumping those that don't agree into being a group that's less intelligent, less informed, utterly wrong and other abusive terms, says more about the people making those remarks than those that voted that way. If that's how they are categorised, if that's how they are thought of, what chance is there for constructive dialogue? It's also not true. Like everyone who voted remain had their finger on the pulse of every facet of the EU, as they made their vote.

I don’t think anyone has said everyone who voted leave was less intelligent but just because some bright people voted to leave doesn’t mean that the majority were not less well educated less intelligent people it is simple statistics that they were.  These people were deliberately exploited by the vote leave campaign who as pointed out by other posters contained plenty of rich bright people who profited or benefited in other ways from us leaving the EU.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

 

3 hours ago, The Left Back said:

Another thoughtful post and agree that the one you referenced from H&W was similarly insightful.

One of my best friends was/is an ardent brexiteer (I was an equally passionate remainer and we've had some tricky conversations since but have survived the experience).  His reasoning was that we don't need two layers of governance.  It's hard enough holding Westminster to account, let alone Brussels.

His point is one that I've more sympathy with.  I suspect many of the people who voted leave were just dissatisfied with 'the establishment' and any chance to vote against it would be taken. I imagine that if they could have voted to scrap the Commons and the Lords in favour of more local power some of them would have chosen that too.   I remember the day after the referendum hearing a very erudite brexiteer phone-in caller explaining that for him the vote was primarily a protest against years/decades of under investment in areas of the country and not so much about anti-foreigner sentiment (except where outsiders seemed to be getting preferential treatment to locals). I think people like this were exploited by hard-right agitators in the recent riots.

I recall the chance to remove an extra layer of embedded bureaucracy, as a plus mentioned by people too. I recall reading articles regarding the amount of corruption, misapplication and misuse of EU funds, from well before this. There are often transparency articles showing citizens concerned about the levels of corruption, and feeling powerless to do anything about it.

That came up a fair bit. Our lot are bad enough, so why encourage more waste in an EU that was happy to bring nation's even closer under its influence, and bureaucratic control?

It's an area that I had to give some thought to, when it came to voting.

[Weston Super Saint]

4 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Did no Brits live in Spain, France, Germany etc prior to 1972? 
 

Fuck me, £7, that’s it, im starting a rejoin campaign. Fucking wankers didn’t put the £28 a year i’ll lose on the side of a bus, did they 😂

It's £7 for 3 years - unless your passport runs out in less than 3 years time, then it will be £7 for 3 years in the new one.

£2.33 per year doesn't sound like it will break the bank.

[a1ex2001]

4 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

It's £7 for 3 years - unless your passport runs out in less than 3 years time, then it will be £7 for 3 years in the new one.

£2.33 per year doesn't sound like it will break the bank.

Multiply that up by the number of Brits that travel to the EU every year and you have a significant amount of money taken out of the UK economy for no gain, it is yet another Brexit ‘benefit’ that is just a drag on our economy rather than a boost.

point to the Brexit boost that has put £2.33 (or more) a year in the pocket of every Brit who goes to the EU?

4 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

[pingpong]

Agree with a lot of the above, not everyone who voted for brexit was a bumbling idiot who got fooled or scammed. Many of the people who voted for it knew what the consequences would be and voted for it anyway. Plenty of people can absorb the cost and just couldn't care less about those who can't.

[Weston Super Saint]

7 hours ago, a1ex2001 said:

Multiply that up by the number of Brits that travel to the EU every year and you have a significant amount of money taken out of the UK economy for no gain, it is yet another Brexit ‘benefit’ that is just a drag on our economy rather than a boost.

point to the Brexit boost that has put £2.33 (or more) a year in the pocket of every Brit who goes to the EU?

How many 'Brits' will be put off by the extra admin and holiday in the UK instead, giving our economy a boost?

Really pointless argument with no tangible measurements.

[Farmer Saint]

45 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

How many 'Brits' will be put off by the extra admin and holiday in the UK instead, giving our economy a boost?

Really pointless argument with no tangible measurements.

My bet is none - they won't realise until they arrive, it will spoil their holiday and they'll get a tenner from the Mail to sell their story about the 'nasty' EU not letting them and their inbred families in. 

Edited August 23 by Farmer Saint

[a1ex2001]

59 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

How many 'Brits' will be put off by the extra admin and holiday in the UK instead, giving our economy a boost?

Really pointless argument with no tangible measurements.

There is a perfectly tangible set of measurements if you want to do a Google and some basic maths.  Millions of brits visit the EU every year filling out an online form isn’t going to put them off in any significant number so this measure simply takes millions of pounds out of the UK economy it is yet another Brexit bonus that hurts our country.  
It is really funny that not a single person can list three tangible benefits from Brexit, the last government had a minister appointed to look for them and even he couldn’t find them!

[Weston Super Saint]

29 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

My bet is none - they won't realise until they arrive, it will spoil their holiday and they'll get a tenner from the Mail to sell their story about the 'nasty' EU not letting them and their inbred families in. 

Except for the clever ones that didn't vote for Brexit though, right?

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Except for the clever ones that didn't vote for Brexit though, right?

Nope, just the inbred leave voters. I seem to remember an independent think tank put together a very in depth analysis on the demographics, IQ and general wellbeing of the voters, and it turned out that 100% of the leave voters were racist, inbred, fucktards.

[badgerx16]

4 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Nope, just the inbred leave voters. I seem to remember an independent think tank put together a very in depth analysis on the demographics, IQ and general wellbeing of the voters, and it turned out that 100% of the leave voters were racist, inbred, fucktards.

Come on Farmer, don't be so reluctant, tell us what you really think.

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Come on Farmer, don't be so reluctant, tell us what you really think.

Not my words Badger, the words of Top Gear magazine...sorry, an independent think tank. 

Edited August 23 by Farmer Saint

[Guided Missile]

39 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

There is a perfectly tangible set of measurements if you want to do a Google and some basic maths.  Millions of brits visit the EU every year filling out an online form isn’t going to put them off in any significant number so this measure simply takes millions of pounds out of the UK economy it is yet another Brexit bonus that hurts our country.  
It is really funny that not a single person can list three tangible benefits from Brexit, the last government had a minister appointed to look for them and even he couldn’t find them!

Here's a list. I used ChatGPT, because I'm too thick and lazy to compose a post myself:
 

1. Sovereignty and Legislative Independence

• Regaining Control Over Laws: One of the most significant arguments for Brexit was the ability to regain full control over UK laws without being subject to EU regulations or the European Court of Justice. This allows the UK to tailor legislation to its specific needs and priorities.
• Trade Policy Independence: The UK can now negotiate its own trade deals independently of the EU. This has already led to new trade agreements with countries like Japan, Australia, and New Zealand, which are tailored to the UK’s specific economic interests.

2. Immigration Control

• End of Free Movement: Brexit ended the free movement of people between the UK and the EU, allowing the UK to implement its own immigration policies. The UK introduced a points-based immigration system designed to attract skilled workers while reducing the influx of low-skilled labor.
• Focus on Skilled Migration: The new system prioritizes migrants with specific skills, which proponents argue will help meet the UK’s labor market needs more effectively.

3. Financial Savings

• Reduced EU Contributions: The UK no longer has to contribute to the EU budget, which has been estimated to save billions of pounds each year. These funds can potentially be redirected towards domestic priorities such as healthcare, education, or infrastructure.
• Agricultural and Regional Funding Control: Post-Brexit, the UK has gained full control over agricultural subsidies and regional development funds, allowing for more targeted support for British farmers and disadvantaged regions.

4. Regulatory Flexibility

• Deregulation Opportunities: Brexit provides the UK with the opportunity to deregulate in certain areas where EU regulations were seen as burdensome. This could lead to greater flexibility and innovation in sectors like financial services, biotechnology, and manufacturing.
• Tailored Environmental and Labor Laws: The UK can now develop its own environmental, labor, and consumer protection laws, which can be adapted more closely to national circumstances and preferences.

5. Global Trade Opportunities

• Expanding Trade Horizons: Brexit has encouraged the UK to focus on global trade, beyond Europe, aligning with the idea of "Global Britain." The UK can pursue trade deals with emerging markets and establish economic partnerships with fast-growing regions in Asia, Africa, and the Americas.
• Joining Trade Blocs: The UK has shown interest in joining trade blocs like the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), which could open up new markets and strengthen trade relationships outside of Europe.

6. Economic and Business Flexibility

• Tailored Economic Policy: The UK can now set its economic policies without needing to coordinate with 27 other EU member states. This allows for more agile responses to economic challenges, such as adjusting taxes, subsidies, and regulations to better suit domestic needs.
• Support for Small Businesses: By leaving the EU, the UK can potentially reduce regulatory burdens on small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) that were previously bound by EU-wide regulations.

7. Political and Cultural Identity

• Reaffirmation of National Identity: For many, Brexit was seen as a way to reassert British national identity and ensure that decisions about the country’s future are made in the UK. This has strengthened the sense of self-determination and control over national destiny.
• Cultural Policy Independence: The UK now has the freedom to craft its own cultural policies, including those related to education, media, and heritage, without needing to align with EU cultural directives.

[badgerx16]

So, from that we can determine that ChatGPT has read the Leave.EU 'manifesto'.

 

Seriously though, 8 years on from the referendum, how much of that has actually materialised, and how much remains a wish list of aspirations and vague intentions ?

Edited August 23 by badgerx16

[Whitey Grandad]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

So, from that we can determine that ChatGPT has read the Leave.EU 'manifesto'.

 

Seriously though, 8 years on from the referendum, how much of that has actually materialised, and how much remains a wish list of aspirations and vague intentions ?

Materialised? Virtually none of it.

Too many to pick apart individually but ‘Expanding Trade Horizons’ isa good place to start. Brexit has shrunk our trade horizons beyond even the direst predictions. I don’t see how looking at Australia, New Zealand or Africa can possibly replace trading with somewhere that’s only an hour or two’s flight away. A European visit is a day trip. These others are a week.

Besides, there was nothing about being an EU member that prevented us dealing with these far off sunny uplands anyway.

[badgerx16]

21 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

I don’t see how looking at Australia, New Zealand or Africa can possibly replace trading with somewhere that’s only an hour or two’s flight away. A European visit is a day trip. These others are a week.

Besides, there was nothing about being an EU member that prevented us dealing with these far off sunny uplands anyway.

Heresy!

[a1ex2001]

3 hours ago, Guided Missile said:

Here's a list. I used ChatGPT, because I'm too thick and lazy to compose a post myself:
 

1. Sovereignty and Legislative Independence

• Regaining Control Over Laws: One of the most significant arguments for Brexit was the ability to regain full control over UK laws without being subject to EU regulations or the European Court of Justice. This allows the UK to tailor legislation to its specific needs and priorities.
• Trade Policy Independence: The UK can now negotiate its own trade deals independently of the EU. This has already led to new trade agreements with countries like Japan, Australia, and New Zealand, which are tailored to the UK’s specific economic interests.

2. Immigration Control

• End of Free Movement: Brexit ended the free movement of people between the UK and the EU, allowing the UK to implement its own immigration policies. The UK introduced a points-based immigration system designed to attract skilled workers while reducing the influx of low-skilled labor.
• Focus on Skilled Migration: The new system prioritizes migrants with specific skills, which proponents argue will help meet the UK’s labor market needs more effectively.

3. Financial Savings

• Reduced EU Contributions: The UK no longer has to contribute to the EU budget, which has been estimated to save billions of pounds each year. These funds can potentially be redirected towards domestic priorities such as healthcare, education, or infrastructure.
• Agricultural and Regional Funding Control: Post-Brexit, the UK has gained full control over agricultural subsidies and regional development funds, allowing for more targeted support for British farmers and disadvantaged regions.

4. Regulatory Flexibility

• Deregulation Opportunities: Brexit provides the UK with the opportunity to deregulate in certain areas where EU regulations were seen as burdensome. This could lead to greater flexibility and innovation in sectors like financial services, biotechnology, and manufacturing.
• Tailored Environmental and Labor Laws: The UK can now develop its own environmental, labor, and consumer protection laws, which can be adapted more closely to national circumstances and preferences.

5. Global Trade Opportunities

• Expanding Trade Horizons: Brexit has encouraged the UK to focus on global trade, beyond Europe, aligning with the idea of "Global Britain." The UK can pursue trade deals with emerging markets and establish economic partnerships with fast-growing regions in Asia, Africa, and the Americas.
• Joining Trade Blocs: The UK has shown interest in joining trade blocs like the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), which could open up new markets and strengthen trade relationships outside of Europe.

6. Economic and Business Flexibility

• Tailored Economic Policy: The UK can now set its economic policies without needing to coordinate with 27 other EU member states. This allows for more agile responses to economic challenges, such as adjusting taxes, subsidies, and regulations to better suit domestic needs.
• Support for Small Businesses: By leaving the EU, the UK can potentially reduce regulatory burdens on small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) that were previously bound by EU-wide regulations.

7. Political and Cultural Identity

• Reaffirmation of National Identity: For many, Brexit was seen as a way to reassert British national identity and ensure that decisions about the country’s future are made in the UK. This has strengthened the sense of self-determination and control over national destiny.
• Cultural Policy Independence: The UK now has the freedom to craft its own cultural policies, including those related to education, media, and heritage, without needing to align with EU cultural directives.

Excellent, a long list of feels with no actual tangible benefits listed good work go straight to the top of the class!

lets start with list the top three EU laws that were so awful we had to leave just to escape them and then list the new trade deals done since Brexit that come anywhere close to replacing being a member of the single market?  I won't hold my breath

[whelk]

11 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

Excellent, a long list of feels with no actual tangible benefits listed good work go straight to the top of the class!

lets start with list the top three EU laws that were so awful we had to leave just to escape them and then list the new trade deals done since Brexit that come anywhere close to replacing being a member of the single market?  I won't hold my breath

Stop encouraging him FFS