Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[egg]

51 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

In 2016 we hadn't left the EU.

The referendum was 2016, and GM is referring to some data and predictions from 2016. He seems to think it's been milk and honey since then. 

[a1ex2001]

Just now, egg said:

The referendum was 2016, and GM is referring to some data and predictions from 2016. He seems to think it's been milk and honey since then. 

He seems to think that his one set of figures in isolation is some sort of gotcha for all the arguments around the economic harm done to the country by Brexit, exhibiting exactly the lower levels of intelligence and reasoning that typify the Brexit supporter (Not saying GM is a thicko but typically Brexit supporters are as supported by the statistics)

[egg]

28 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

He seems to think that his one set of figures in isolation is some sort of gotcha for all the arguments around the economic harm done to the country by Brexit, exhibiting exactly the lower levels of intelligence and reasoning that typify the Brexit supporter (Not saying GM is a thicko but typically Brexit supporters are as supported by the statistics)

Indeed. Snapshots are bullshit. 

[badgerx16]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx29nzd1drgo

"The EU is planning to introduce its €7 EU visa waiver for British holidaymakers by next summer......"

"She was speaking as she confirmed the Entry/Exit Scheme (EES) - which will require non-EU travellers to register fingerprints and a photo instead of having their passport stamped - will start on 10 November.

Under the European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS), passengers must apply for a waiver, similar to the US ESTA, before travel, and this will be valid for three years or until their passport expires, whichever is first."

[Challenger]

11 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx29nzd1drgo

"The EU is planning to introduce its €7 EU visa waiver for British holidaymakers by next summer......"

"She was speaking as she confirmed the Entry/Exit Scheme (EES) - which will require non-EU travellers to register fingerprints and a photo instead of having their passport stamped - will start on 10 November.

Under the European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS), passengers must apply for a waiver, similar to the US ESTA, before travel, and this will be valid for three years or until their passport expires, whichever is first."

Are we going to have a similar scheme for EU visitors to the UK to help tackle the financial"black hole" . Bet we don't.

[The Kraken]

11 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx29nzd1drgo

"The EU is planning to introduce its €7 EU visa waiver for British holidaymakers by next summer......"

"She was speaking as she confirmed the Entry/Exit Scheme (EES) - which will require non-EU travellers to register fingerprints and a photo instead of having their passport stamped - will start on 10 November.

Under the European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS), passengers must apply for a waiver, similar to the US ESTA, before travel, and this will be valid for three years or until their passport expires, whichever is first."

I know they're planning for a 'soft-launch' of this over 6 months from November, but I can only see it causing utter chaos at the borders.  It's failed time and time again throughout the testing period and timescales have just gone back and back.  Dover is going to be a lot of fun throughout the school holiday periods.   

[Guided Missile]

19 hours ago, a1ex2001 said:

He seems to think that his one set of figures in isolation is some sort of gotcha for all the arguments around the economic harm done to the country by Brexit, exhibiting exactly the lower levels of intelligence and reasoning that typify the Brexit supporter (Not saying GM is a thicko but typically Brexit supporters are as supported by the statistics)

So, 52% of the people voting in the Brexit referendum have  "lower levels of intelligence and reasoning"? You really are a piece of work. Arrogant just doesn't quite cover it.

Alright, here's one for you and all the other super intelligent remainers. Provide economic data to demonstrate the benefits of membership to the EU, to France & Germany since we left and saved £19 billion a year. I won't hold my breath.

[egg]

5 minutes ago, Guided Missile said:

So, 52% of the people voting in the Brexit referendum have  "lower levels of intelligence and reasoning"? You really are a piece of work. Arrogant just doesn't quite cover it.

Alright, here's one for you and all the other super intelligent remainers. Provide economic data to demonstrate the benefits of membership to the EU, to France & Germany since we left and saved £19 billion a year. I won't hold my breath.

Not all do, but many of the 52% are either too stubborn or too stupid to acknowledge that their decision was wrong. Of that 52% (you being one) seek to rely on spurious facts to justify their decision and go missing when asked to look at entire financial performance since Brexit, and even since the referendum. 

I voted leave. It was a daft decision. On any sensible assessment we're worse off out than in. I've just bought a coffee in France. Exchange rate €1.16. We could have locked into the Euro at €1.50. 

The french think we're idiots. They're correct. 

[whelk]

1 hour ago, Guided Missile said:

So, 52% of the people voting in the Brexit referendum have  "lower levels of intelligence and reasoning"? You really are a piece of work. Arrogant just doesn't quite cover it.

Alright, here's one for you and all the other super intelligent remainers. Provide economic data to demonstrate the benefits of membership to the EU, to France & Germany since we left and saved £19 billion a year. I won't hold my breath.

Thick cunt.

Genuinely wonder if there is anyone who meets this arrogant prick who doesn’t conclude he is an obnoxious cunt. 

[Tamesaint]

1 hour ago, Guided Missile said:

So, 52% of the people voting in the Brexit referendum have  "lower levels of intelligence and reasoning"? You really are a piece of work. Arrogant just doesn't quite cover it.

Alright, here's one for you and all the other super intelligent remainers. Provide economic data to demonstrate the benefits of membership to the EU, to France & Germany since we left and saved £19 billion a year. I won't hold my breath.

 Brexit has been a disaster for the British economy. A 5 minute google produced the following 3 indictments of Brexit. I could have found others if I was so incllined but couldn't be bothered. 

If you can read and comprehend take your pick from these 3. Only a thick, arrogant, bigoted twat would argue against the evidence. 

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/14/brexit-has-sliced-5percent-off-uk-economic-growth-goldman-sachs-says.html

 

https://www.london.gov.uk/new-report-reveals-uk-economy-almost-ps140billion-smaller-because-brexit

 

Edited August 21 by Tamesaint

[badgerx16]

What people claiming "we saved £x by leaving the EU" miss is that the UK used to receive about £5.5Bn annually in funding and grants FROM the EU, which we now don't get.

And the UK's net payment to the EU was not £19Bn annually, it was about half of that.

Edited August 21 by badgerx16

[a1ex2001]

4 hours ago, Guided Missile said:

So, 52% of the people voting in the Brexit referendum have  "lower levels of intelligence and reasoning"? You really are a piece of work. Arrogant just doesn't quite cover it.

Alright, here's one for you and all the other super intelligent remainers. Provide economic data to demonstrate the benefits of membership to the EU, to France & Germany since we left and saved £19 billion a year. I won't hold my breath.

I didn't say they all were, but all the statistics support that those with lower levels of education and intelligence were much more likely to support Brexit than those that were more intelligent and more educated.  These are simple verifiable facts, you might not like them but it is reality

We haven't saved £19 billion a year, did you fall for the 350m a week bus slogan?  You can't say that money that was invested for a return is a saving when you lose the return on the investment you have made a loss.

The German government estimates that membership of the single market is worth 132 billion euro's a year, it's difficult to find these figures (as you knew) nobody does the research as France and Germany are unlikely to leave the EU anytime soon so there is no interest in it.  There is reams of research around the negative impact to the UK economy of Brexit though because it is interesting and relevant, you could use that as a basis for estimating the impact the EU has on France and Germany but you won't do that because you are arguing disingenuously.  I could ask you to list out the benefits of Brexit and evidence to support them but I know you won't because even the last governments own minister for Brexit benefits couldn't find any!

Edited August 21 by a1ex2001
So I can leave the thicko club :)

[trousers]

17 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

I didn't say they all were, but all the statistics support that those with lower levels of education and intelligence were much more likely to support Brexit than those that were more intelligent and more educated.  These are simple verifiable facts, you might not like them but it is reality

We haven't saved £19 billion a year, did you fall for the 350m a week bus slogan?  You can't say that money that was invested for a return is a saving when you loose the return on the investment you have made a loss.

The German government estimates that membership of the single market is worth 132 billion euro's a year, it's difficult to find these figures (as you knew) nobody does the research as France and Germany are unlikely to leave the EU anytime soon so there is no interest in it.  There is reams of research around the negative impact to the UK economy of Brexit though because it is interesting and relevant, you could use that as a basis for estimating the impact the EU has on France and Germany but you won't do that because you are arguing disingenuously.  I could ask you to list out the benefits of Brexit and evidence to support them but I know you won't because even the last governments own minister for Brexit benefits couldn't find any!

*lose 

(welcome to the 52% thicko club... ) 

Edited August 21 by trousers

[hypochondriac]

What if people who voted to leave valued other factors higher than purely financial considerations?

[a1ex2001]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

What if people who voted to leave valued other factors higher than purely financial considerations?

Then you would need to explain what those other factors were and what if any benefits they delivered to the country, essentially were these 'other factors' something other than 'feels' or not liking foreigners?  You get double bonus points if you don't say Sovereignty (even the Tory government had to eventually admit that the UK Parliament was always Sovereign throughout our EU membership) and if when you say something about EU laws you can list the top three that were of such concern to you it was in your mind worth the financial damage you knew you were choosing.

Edited August 21 by a1ex2001

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

Then you would need to explain what those other factors were and what if any benefits they delivered to the country, essentially were these other things something other than 'feels' or not liking foreigners.

I expect that some people didn't much like the pooling and thus dilution of democracy, the fact that some laws were nodded through without proper scrutiny, that elected politicians in the UK could defer to Brussels and could outsource any responsibility for decision making and I think that some people were attracted to the idea of UK politicians being properly held to account for their decisions without using excuses that their hands were tied by something that brussels were saying they had to enforce. I'd say that none of that is to do with financial considerations which was always going to be more difficult after leaving. 

Edited August 21 by hypochondriac

[a1ex2001]

25 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I expect that some people didn't much like the pooling and thus dilution of democracy, the fact that some laws were nodded through without proper scrutiny, that elected politicians in the UK could defer to Brussels and could outsource any responsibility for decision making and I think that some people were attracted to the idea of UK politicians being properly held to account for their decisions without using excuses that their hands were tied by something that brussels were saying they had to enforce. I'd say that none of that is to do with financial considerations which was always going to be more difficult after leaving. 

Do you have some examples of this vague load of 'feels'? The UK government was always sovereign and was always responsible for every decision it took we had a veto on EU legislation, if this vague mush is the reason people decided to knowingly damage our economy to the extent they have then I would seriously question the cost v's benefit equation but at least they would be willing to admit that A) Brexit has had a significant negative impact on the countries economy and B) that they deliberately chose this damage believing it was the right thing to do.  I have a lot more time for that position than I do those that are still denying the massive financial harm that Brexit has done to our economy, I'd still disagree with you though! 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, a1ex2001 said:

Do you have some examples of this vague load of 'feels'? The UK government was always sovereign and was always responsible for every decision it took we had a veto on EU legislation, if this vague mush is the reason people decided to knowingly damage our economy to the extent they have then I would seriously question the cost v's benefit equation but at least they would be willing to admit that A) Brexit has had a significant negative impact on the countries economy and B) that they deliberately chose this damage believing it was the right thing to do.  I have a lot more time for that position than I do those that are still denying the massive financial harm that Brexit has done to our economy, I'd still disagree with you though! 

I don't really have much desire to examine arguments from years ago, I was simply challenging the assertion that finance was the only and most important consideration for people who voted to leave. 

Regarding your point about sovereignty. Is it the case that Britain had a veto over freedom of movement? Government subsidies of industries? Fishing quotas? So we could veto these things and do what we wanted? 

[a1ex2001]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I don't really have much desire to examine arguments from years ago, I was simply challenging the assertion that finance was the only and most important consideration for people who voted to leave. 

Regarding your point about sovereignty. Is it the case that Britain had a veto over freedom of movement? Government subsidies of industries? Fishing quotas? So we could veto these things and do what we wanted? 

Freedom of movement came in under the Maastricht treaty I believe which was ratified by our government had it not been then we would have had no freedom of movement, fishing quotas were all covered by the common fisheries policy which again we signed up to (Why do people get so bent out of shape over such a tiny UK industry?) the Brexit messiah Nige was a part of the EU committee that ran it all but unsurprisingly the work shy grifter never attended...  I could go on and on!  If your list of feels is the reason you knowingly chose to do the damage that has been done to our economy then I would say maybe you should have thought about it a bit more first and done some actual research this is all assuming you are not just in denial that A)you were sucked in by the bus or B) you liked nigels Nazi inspired poster (Not saying wither of those things are true but it is funny how many people try ridiculous leaps of logic to justify Brexit support when actually it was those two things that did it) 

[Guided Missile]

10 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

I would say maybe you should have thought about it a bit more first and done some actual research this is all assuming you are not just in denial that A)you were sucked in by the bus or B) you liked nigels Nazi inspired poster (Not saying wither of those things are true but it is funny how many people try ridiculous leaps of logic to justify Brexit support when actually it was those two things that did it) 

Actually, I think you have rumbled me. I am in fact of low intelligence and inspired by Nazi propaganda. Typical traits of Brexiteers (and most Ukrainians, according to Putin.)

[hypochondriac]

16 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

Freedom of movement came in under the Maastricht treaty I believe which was ratified by our government had it not been then we would have had no freedom of movement, fishing quotas were all covered by the common fisheries policy which again we signed up to (Why do people get so bent out of shape over such a tiny UK industry?) the Brexit messiah Nige was a part of the EU committee that ran it all but unsurprisingly the work shy grifter never attended...  I could go on and on!  If your list of feels is the reason you knowingly chose to do the damage that has been done to our economy then I would say maybe you should have thought about it a bit more first and done some actual research this is all assuming you are not just in denial that A)you were sucked in by the bus or B) you liked nigels Nazi inspired poster (Not saying wither of those things are true but it is funny how many people try ridiculous leaps of logic to justify Brexit support when actually it was those two things that did it) 

So it is possible to be in the EU, subject to their laws without freedom of movement? And we are allowed to subsidise any of our industries that we like? 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

So it is possible to be in the EU, subject to their laws without freedom of movement? And we are allowed to subsidise any of our industries that we like? 

They were our laws whilst we were a member.

It’s freedom of movement of labour. It is not an absolute right and some EU countries control it rigorously.

[egg]

Trying to guess, with hindsight, why people voted to leave doesn't alter that leaving has been shite for our economy and labour market. 

I'm still waiting to see one single benefit from it. 

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

They were our laws whilst we were a member.

It’s freedom of movement of labour. It is not an absolute right and some EU countries control it rigorously.

So we can veto every law if we liked and still be part of the EU? We can subsidise any industry we fancy and remain part of the EU? 

[hypochondriac]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

Trying to guess, with hindsight, why people voted to leave doesn't alter that leaving has been shite for our economy and labour market. 

I'm still waiting to see one single benefit from it. 

You were pretty silly if you voted to leave thinking that it would be good for the economy. 

[a1ex2001]

14 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So it is possible to be in the EU, subject to their laws without freedom of movement? And we are allowed to subsidise any of our industries that we like? 

I think you knows that’s not how it works, but Freedom of movement would never have been introduced if ALL members had not ratified the Maastricht treaty, we elected a government that chose to do so the rest is history.  Our Sovereign governments elected as representatives by the British people chose to adopt these rules that were good for our country.  The UK was a basket case when we first joined and thrived as members maybe we will have to be the poor man of Europe again before the knuckle draggers support us rejoining!

[hypochondriac]

Just now, a1ex2001 said:

I think you knows that’s not how it works, but Freedom of movement would never have been introduced if ALL members had not ratified the Maastricht treaty, we elected a government that chose to do so the rest is history.  Our Sovereign governments elected as representatives by the British people chose to adopt these rules that were good for our country.  The UK was a basket case when we first joined and thrived as members maybe we will have to be the poor man of Europe again before the knuckle draggers support us rejoining!

Right so at the point that we left we had to accept freedom of movement and controls over subsidies of industries in order to continue being a member. 

[whelk]

10 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You were pretty silly if you voted to leave thinking that it would be good for the economy. 

Was this what clinched it for you?

 

[a1ex2001]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

Right so at the point that we left we had to accept freedom of movement and controls over subsidies of industries in order to continue being a member. 

We had already accepted them, we could have had much more control over freedom of movement (as it was only freedom of movement to work) but successive governments chose not to even register people arriving in the country.

Once we had signed up we would have needed to renegotiate our treaties or leave we chose leave.

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, a1ex2001 said:

We had already accepted them, we could have had much more control over freedom of movement (as it was only freedom of movement to work) but successive governments chose not to even register people arriving in the country.

Once we had signed up we would have needed to renegotiate our treaties or leave we chose leave.

So it was an option to renegotiate the treaties and opt out of freedom of movement whilst remaining a member? Didn't Cameron try to do some renegotiation and got effectively laughed out of the room? 

[Whitey Grandad]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So it was an option to renegotiate the treaties and opt out of freedom of movement whilst remaining a member? Didn't Cameron try to do some renegotiation and got effectively laughed out of the room? 

It was never complete freedom of movement. You had to be either economically active, or a student, or economically independent.

Edited August 21 by Whitey Grandad

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

It was never complete freedom of movement. You had to be either economically active, or a student, or economically independent.

So it was an option to renegotiate the treaties and opt out of freedom of movement for those economically active, or a student or economically independent whilst remaining a member? 

[sadoldgit]

No surprise that people who voted to leave didn’t know the details of what we were actually leaving. They just listened to the guff that Johnson and Farage fed them and didn’t  bother to look further.

[a1ex2001]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So it was an option to renegotiate the treaties and opt out of freedom of movement for those economically active, or a student or economically independent whilst remaining a member? 

Potentially yes if we could convince the majority it was in their interests.

[egg]

37 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

You were pretty silly if you voted to leave thinking that it would be good for the economy. 

World of difference between thinking it  would be good, and not appreciating what a disaster it would be. 

[hypochondriac]

8 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

Potentially yes if we could convince the majority it was in their interests.

Was that ever a remotely realistic possibility? 

[egg]

17 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

No surprise that people who voted to leave didn’t know the details of what we were actually leaving. They just listened to the guff that Johnson and Farage fed them and didn’t  bother to look further.

That's daft even by your standards SoG. 

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

That's daft even by your standards SoG. 

But you mustn’t pick on him because he never antagonises, he’s just an innocent victim of the pile-on mob.

[Whitey Grandad]

23 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So it was an option to renegotiate the treaties and opt out of freedom of movement for those economically active, or a student or economically independent whilst remaining a member? 

Eh? It was an option to control those who fulfilled these criteria. Compare that to what we have now.

[egg]

1 minute ago, whelk said:

But you mustn’t pick on him because he never antagonises, he’s just an innocent victim of the pile-on mob.

I play the posts not the posters Whelk. 

[hypochondriac]

19 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Eh? It was an option to control those who fulfilled these criteria. Compare that to what we have now.

So you could temporarily control some of the flow but not end it indefinitely? What we have now is a choice and governments who do nothing will be held accountable like the tories were and like Labour will be if they don't deal with it in some fashion. 

Edited August 21 by hypochondriac

[West end Saints]

On 19/08/2024 at 15:10, Guided Missile said:

You had to quote my troll, didn't you? As he is on ignore, I didn't read the bollox he spouted the first time, but in the spirit of accuracy, a concept which this sad sack is not familiar, just a couple of points:

1. I consider people who deliberately and falsely put this countries achievements down, as traitors, not those that voted against Brexit. I am sure they, like I, respect democracy and have moved on (as if).
2. I never stated those who voted Labour are Marxists. I said the Unions that support Labour are Marxist. No shit, Sherlock.

I think what you should notice about this poster is he is the 1st to reply to my posts, within a minute of me posting (check it out). A sad troll and stalker, one that will remain on ignore because he has nothing to contribute to a debate apart from insults and dogma. 

My problem is that my ID was outed many years ago by the BBC and it means that sad fucks on this site try to have a pop against me personally. Fucking right I'll threaten to sue if anyone posts lies about me. I found out the id of one of my trolls and when I phoned up and offered to meet up for a "chat", he whined like a baby and apologised. 

Gutless keyboard warriors. Fuck 'em all.

Is this a spoof account? I don't know the history, but doesn't feel like it is genuine.

What is this about BBC after a saintsweb poster? Confused!

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

Was this what clinched it for you?

 

At the Tory conference last year Michael Gove spoke of the mythical £350m, "Promise made, promise delivered".

So how come A&E doesn't look anything like the images on the right of that video ?

Edited August 21 by badgerx16

[whelk]

28 minutes ago, West end Saints said:

What is this about BBC after a saintsweb poster? Confused!

No idea but must have been a fucking slow news day

[whelk]

22 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

So how come A&E doesn't look anything like the images on the right of that video ?

Because of lefties putting the country down. If only you let us clever people carry out the right sort of Brexit you could’ve had it all. And whatever you do, don’t listen to experts - that’s just project fear nonsense 

[a1ex2001]

5 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Was that ever a remotely realistic possibility? 

Who knows you have to try consistently over a long period of time to bring people round.  The real question is why would you want to end freedom of movement…

[Whitey Grandad]

33 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

Who knows you have to try consistently over a long period of time to bring people round.  The real question is why would you want to end freedom of movement…

Especially when it ends our own freedom to move.

[AlexLaw76]

6 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Especially when it ends our own freedom to move.

Where has your freedom ended?

[The Left Back]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Where has your freedom ended?

Not me personally, but my daughter wants to go and live in Italy but she now can't.  She's of a generation that won't easily forgive those that led us out of the EU.  She's yet to see a benefit of Brexit.  Perhaps you could help me enlighten her?

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Where has your freedom ended?

My ex is Swedish. If it wasnt for freedom of movement my kids wouldnt have been born.