Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Nearly half of our food imports come from outside the EU, which are subject to an average levy of 18%. The rest that comes from inefficient farmers in the EU, could be sourced for less elsewhere. We buy from the EU producers where the tariffs artificially distort the price. The good news for British farmers is that the competing EU equivalents are now more expensive. Therefore, there is an incentive for them to produce more.

 

At the end of the day, the EU is a customs union, which means that it imposes tariffs on imports - such as food - from other countries. By leaving the customs union we will be able to drop those tariffs and thereby have cheaper food. That's one reason why leaving the EU is good for consumers, especially the poor who spend a disproportionately larger percentage of their money on food. So although inflation may be on the rise, this can be offset in other areas.

 

No food prices are set to INCREASE as a result of Brexit as more inflation in our economy inevitably results in price increases in the shops. Now if you really are insistent on attempting to deny this obvious truth then why don't you take this opportunity to forecast that the latest inflation number - due this week I understand - will show a stable or indeed falling inflation rate?

 

I'm even happy to have a little charity bet on the subject it if you like ...

[Verbal]

You really are a piece of work, aren't you? Dare to argue that the country could actually benefit from a weaker Pound and be labelled by you as not giving a **** for the poor and needy. Still, it's nothing new from the Remainian camp. CEC delighted in accusing Brexiteers of not caring for the future generations, which was equally arrogant twaddle.

 

Hardly surprisingly, you don't address the point. While you sit cosily on your superannuated pension, inoculated from the effects of Brexit, what do you say to those on benefits who will experience losses on breadline income as a result of inflation following the (ongoing) nosedive of the pound?

 

As I say, prove that you actually give a ****.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Hardly surprisingly, you don't address the point. While you sit cosily on your superannuated pension, inoculated from the effects of Brexit, what do you say to those on benefits who will experience losses on breadline income as a result of inflation following the (ongoing) nosedive of the pound?

 

As I say, prove that you actually give a ****.

 

He told me he didn't care ("not bothered") if the UK broke up as a result of Brexit and I believe him. I doubt very much he gives a damn about anyone who is set to suffer now - especially the young.

[Guided Missile]

He told me he didn't care ("not bothered") if the UK broke up as a result of Brexit and I believe him. I doubt very much he gives a damn about anyone who is set to suffer now - especially the young.

Stick this in your pipe and smoke it, Chuck:

[Johnny Bognor]

No food prices are set to INCREASE as a result of Brexit as more inflation in our economy inevitably results in price increases in the shops. Now if you really are insistent on attempting to deny this obvious truth then why don't you take this opportunity to forecast that the latest inflation number - due this week I understand - will show a stable or indeed falling inflation rate?

 

I'm even happy to have a little charity bet on the subject it if you like ...

I never said there wouldn't be inflation. I have mentioned 3 or 4% on numerous occasions.

 

What I said was that once we leave the EU, we could significantly REDUCE the cost of food imports by removing the excessive EU levy on agriculture as we won't have to protect french farmers anymore.

 

Meanwhile you are happy for the less well off to continue to pay over priced imported foods ...

Edited 17 October, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I never said there wouldn't be inflation. I have mentioned 3 or 4% on numerous occasions.

 

What I said was that once we leave the EU, we could significantly REDUCE the cost of food imports by removing the excessive EU levy on agriculture as we won't have to protect french farmers anymore.

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

To be fair I did not really expect you to take up my little offer - after all it is a problem having your gob and wallet located in different postcodes. As for your (evidence free) speculation that prices will somehow fall in the future when we leave what is the largest tariff-free trading bloc in the world this is certainly entertaining if nothing else.

[Johnny Bognor]

 

To be fair I did not really expect you to take up my little offer - after all it is a problem having your gob and wallet located in different postcodes. As for your (evidence free) speculation that prices will somehow fall in the future when we leave what is the largest tariff-free trading bloc in the world this is certainly entertaining if nothing else.

 

Errrr where have I said that there would be no inflation???,

 

After leaving the EU, why would we keep those tarrifs, especially if we could REDUCE the cost of food???

 

You would only keep them to punish the less well off.... I would prefer to help them

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Stick this in your pipe and smoke it, Chuck:

 

So you have gone to the trouble of showing just how well our economy has performed in the Single Market - and then propose that we leave it!

 

This too is rather interesting behaviour ....

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Errrr where have I said that there would be no inflation???,

 

After leaving the EU, why would we keep those tarrifs, especially if we could REDUCE the cost of food???

 

You would only keep them to punish the less well off.... I would prefer to help them

 

I really don't know what you are saying - you seem a bit 'all over the shop' as the expression has it. I wonder if you are you now thinking that, post 2019, the UK should abandon all support for British agriculture? If so, don't you think that might just have a negative impact on our (already hard pressed) rural economy?

[Johnny Bognor]

I really don't know what you are saying - you seem a bit 'all over the shop' as the expression has it. I wonder if you are you now thinking that, post 2019, the UK should abandon all support for British agriculture? If so, don't you think that might just have a negative impact on our (already hard pressed) rural economy?

 

Errr we are already importing 40% of our food. Remind me of how this helps UK farmers.

 

Remind me of how zero rating duties on bananas, citrus fruit and cocoa (for example) is going to damage British farms.

Edited 17 October, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Wes Tender]

Hardly surprisingly, you don't address the point. While you sit cosily on your superannuated pension, inoculated from the effects of Brexit, what do you say to those on benefits who will experience losses on breadline income as a result of inflation following the (ongoing) nosedive of the pound?

 

As I say, prove that you actually give a ****.

 

I don't have to prove anything to you. If you don't wish to accept my word on it, then that's up to you, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I can well remember when your beloved Labour Party got inflation up to 27%, which was when those on fixed incomes really suffered, but maybe you're too young to remember that.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Errr we are already importing 40% of how food. Remind me of how that benefits anyone...

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

We import a large percentage of our food (I note you are still seeking to ignore animal feed here) primarily because we a relatively small county with a large population and therefore limited land available for agriculture. If you can explain why leaving the EU is somehow going to change those fundamentals then by all means please do so.

[Johnny Bognor]

We import a large percentage of our food (I note you are still seeking to ignore animal feed here) primarily because we a relatively small county with a large population and therefore limited land available for agriculture. If you can explain why leaving the EU is somehow going to change those fundamentals then by all means please do so.

 

Is that the animal feed that is also subject to EU tariffs????

 

Why are you ignoring the fact that food prices are being kept artificially high? It doesn't require much brain power to recognise that food costs (especially for products that cannot be produced here) could be reduced by removing artificial price barriers post brexit.

Edited 17 October, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Wes Tender]

He told me he didn't care ("not bothered") if the UK broke up as a result of Brexit and I believe him. I doubt very much he gives a damn about anyone who is set to suffer now - especially the young.

 

I repeatedly posted that I probably cared as much if not more than you for the future of our children and grandchildren. The problem that you had, was accepting the vision that Brexit voters held, the belief that leaving the EU and looking to the wider horizons would in the medium to long term be to the benefit of the Country and therefore future generations. That you were so blinkered as to be unable to see that potential upside and to deny others' convictions is your problem, not mine.

 

Would the break-up of the UK be a price worth paying to leave the EU? Personally I would say yes, it is a chance that I was prepared to take, along with everybody else who voted to leave, despite the best efforts of Project Fear who insisted that this would be a price we would have to pay. I would prefer for the UK to remain together and don't believe that Brexit will cause it to fall apart, but if the SNP wished to try once more to gain Independence using Brexit as an excuse, and the Scottish voters decided to go with it despite the fall in the value of oil, then that is their choice.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I repeatedly posted that I probably cared as much if not more than you for the future of our children and grandchildren. The problem that you had, was accepting the vision that Brexit voters held, the belief that leaving the EU and looking to the wider horizons would in the medium to long term be to the benefit of the Country and therefore future generations. That you were so blinkered as to be unable to see that potential upside and to deny others' convictions is your problem, not mine.

 

Would the break-up of the UK be a price worth paying to leave the EU? Personally I would say yes, it is a chance that I was prepared to take, along with everybody else who voted to leave, despite the best efforts of Project Fear who insisted that this would be a price we would have to pay. I would prefer for the UK to remain together and don't believe that Brexit will cause it to fall apart, but if the SNP wished to try once more to gain Independence using Brexit as an excuse, and the Scottish voters decided to go with it despite the fall in the value of oil, then that is their choice.

 

I favour this old nation continuing into the future because I'm rather fond of it and value its long and remarkable history. You on the other hand you are some kind of odd patriot who cares little if his nation is destroyed as long as his distaste for internationalism is sated.

 

I must tell you again that you are a very strange creature.

[buctootim]

Why support sugar beet farmers by price support? Just grow another crop that is more profitable. Release farmers from being handout to opportunity seekers.

 

Which crops are more profitable GM? Which crops can be grown in the UK more profitably than say Kenya? What will poor Kenyans do when their arable land currently used to provide food for the local population is converted into producing cash crops for export?

Edited 17 October, 2016 by buctootim

[Johnny Bognor]

Which crops are more profitable GM? Which crops can be grown in the UK more profitably than say Kenya? What will poor Kenyans do when their arable land currently used to provide food for the local population is converted into producing cash crops for export?

Errr the UK is already Kenya's second largest export market for crops. The fact that the EU punishes African farmers has more to do with poverty on that continent. GMs idea would lift an impoverished continent...

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[moonraker]

I don't have to prove anything to you. If you don't wish to accept my word on it, then that's up to you, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I can well remember when your beloved Labour Party got inflation up to 27%, which was when those on fixed incomes really suffered, but maybe you're too young to remember that.

This is not about parochial party politics this is the long term future of our country, dragging up the performance of past Governments is pathetic.

[shurlock]

I repeatedly posted that I probably cared as much if not more than you for the future of our children and grandchildren. The problem that you had, was accepting the vision that Brexit voters held, the belief that leaving the EU and looking to the wider horizons would in the medium to long term be to the benefit of the Country and therefore future generations. That you were so blinkered as to be unable to see that potential upside and to deny others' convictions is your problem, not mine.

 

Would the break-up of the UK be a price worth paying to leave the EU? Personally I would say yes, it is a chance that I was prepared to take, along with everybody else who voted to leave, despite the best efforts of Project Fear who insisted that this would be a price we would have to pay. I would prefer for the UK to remain together and don't believe that Brexit will cause it to fall apart, but if the SNP wished to try once more to gain Independence using Brexit as an excuse, and the Scottish voters decided to go with it despite the fall in the value of oil, then that is their choice.

 

What did you make of the productivity stats pal? You were haranguing me for an answer; now you've gone all quiet.

 

#tailbetweenthelegs

[Wes Tender]

What did you make of the productivity stats pal? You were haranguing me for an answer; now you've gone all quiet.

 

#tailbetweenthelegs

 

I did some digging of my own, my old mucker, and found out that productivity in the UK was ahead of Japan's, didn't believe that was the case any more than I could believe that our productivity was behind that of the likes of Italy or France where they spend the afternoons asleep. Then I reasoned that as these figures covered a period before the Referendum, I wondered what their relevance was to this debate, so i didn't bother to spend any more time on it. Do you think that our productivity post Brexit will go up or down?

[Guided Missile]

No food prices are set to INCREASE as a result of Brexit as more inflation in our economy inevitably results in price increases in the shops. Now if you really are insistent on attempting to deny this obvious truth then why don't you take this opportunity to forecast that the latest inflation number - due this week I understand - will show a stable or indeed falling inflation rate?

Please contemplate my arguments against your delusions, Chuck by reading this.

A report by the Institute of Economic Affairs yesterday said Brexit would let the UK avoid the EU’s “costly agricultural regulations” which are likely to make food prices shoot up. And it said quitting the EU would also make it easier for Britain to buy food from all around the world and bring down our prices more. The IEA study by former NFU chief economist and Government adviser Sean Rickard described the Common Agricultural policy as the EU’s most expensive at £360billion between 2015 and 2020. He cited the UK’s Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs as saying that 53 per cent of its regulations come from the EU or international bodies. Exiting the EU offers 'unrivalled opportunity' to halt 'staggering' food price inflation. He put the cost of complying with EU regulations at £590million a year in England alone - and stressed that this “significantly underestimates” the true cost of regulations. Mr Rickard said: “CAP is also the EU’s most complex and interventionist programme. “Regulation, or more precisely ‘social regulation’ defined as protecting public interests such as health, safety and the environment is now the CAP’s most pervasive form of intervention. “While regulation can serve a positive purpose, there is a growing concern amongst industry participants and academics that EU agri-food regulations have become too burdensome, intrusive and stifling with adverse consequences for productive efficiency and international competitiveness.”

The report criticised “EU-wide command-and-control regulations” which do no have the flexibility to cope with local conditions. IEA director general Mark Littlewood said: “EU member states face staggering food price rises unless the march of increased regulation is halted. “The UK is fortunate that it now has the opportunity to repatriate control of its farming regulations. “It’s crucial that decisions stem from good scientific evidence, and pay attention to consumers’ interests and the potential crippling costs that overregulation can have in pushing up food prices and the cost of living.”

"Obvious truth..."

[buctootim]

Please contemplate my arguments against your delusions, Chuck by reading this.

 

"Obvious truth..."

 

It is an obvious truth. 50% of our food and livestock feed is already imported. Will the price of that go up or down given the pounds fall? If you want to substitute the remaining 50% which is produced in the UK, what will you do with the redundant farmers and farmland?

[Guided Missile]

It is an obvious truth. 50% of our food and livestock feed is already imported. Will the price of that go up or down given the pounds fall? If you want to substitute the remaining 50% which is produced in the UK, what will you do with the redundant farmers and farmland?

There are none that are as blind, as those that won't see...

[so22saint]

I did some digging of my own, my old mucker, and found out that productivity in the UK was ahead of Japan's, didn't believe that was the case any more than I could believe that our productivity was behind that of the likes of Italy or France where they spend the afternoons asleep. Then I reasoned that as these figures covered a period before the Referendum, I wondered what their relevance was to this debate, so i didn't bother to spend any more time on it. Do you think that our productivity post Brexit will go up or down?

 

Have you worked in Italy and France? I have - this is a classic fallacy of the small minded "we're better than everybody else" little Englander. The French work a very different shift from the UK - get in late, have a long lunch, but where I worked the working day didn't really finish until 8pm. Italy (Milan - Gucci) was also a place where everybody worked very very hard, and their industrial output is testament to that (reason they have the biggest shipyards in Europe perchance).

 

Both economies have structural problems - France in particular has terrible labour laws that as a business owner made it very difficult to hire and fire, and also is very protectionist (so ironically we will become more like them).

 

As productivity is a measure based on currency and hours worked, the tanking of the £ means our productivity will go down I'd suggest.

 

I'm finding this thread very very amusing and tragic to be honest. The hard leavers desperation to say that everything will be fine, when even the leave camp during the referendum said there would be an economic shock is amusing. Face it, there are a few years of hardship for the poor on the horizon, especially if we leave the single market, as world markets assume open trade to be a good thing. Ditto, the hard remainers desperation to see the UK fail is pretty sad. I was a remainer and my big worry was for the kids future in a closed off, increasingly illiberal UK (well England & Wales as I suspect the Scots are off) - but surely we all want to live in a successful economy?

 

Best thing for us now is to remove anybody making emotional bull**** arguments (Davis, Fox, Tusk, Hollande) from the negotiations, bung it to the boring people, and let them thrash out the compromise.

 

Saddest thing overall is the failure of the political class in all of this, but then what do they ever bring to a country. They are all a bunch of jumped up student debating society, local council, never had a job arseholes who don't understand what it takes to add value (jobs, money, taxes) to a country other than from reading it in books. ******s

[buctootim]

There are none that are as blind, as those that won't see...

 

As I thought. You have no answer.

[Guided Missile]

As I thought. You have no answer.

The answer is obvious to me. Rather than importing food, we should be producing more ourselves, using technology that improves crop yields and efficiency of production.

Jeez...

[Wes Tender]

Have you worked in Italy and France? I have - this is a classic fallacy of the small minded "we're better than everybody else" little Englander. The French work a very different shift from the UK - get in late, have a long lunch, but where I worked the working day didn't really finish until 8pm. Italy (Milan - Gucci) was also a place where everybody worked very very hard, and their industrial output is testament to that (reason they have the biggest shipyards in Europe perchance).

 

Both economies have structural problems - France in particular has terrible labour laws that as a business owner made it very difficult to hire and fire, and also is very protectionist (so ironically we will become more like them).

 

As productivity is a measure based on currency and hours worked, the tanking of the £ means our productivity will go down I'd suggest.

 

I'm finding this thread very very amusing and tragic to be honest. The hard leavers desperation to say that everything will be fine, when even the leave camp during the referendum said there would be an economic shock is amusing. Face it, there are a few years of hardship for the poor on the horizon, especially if we leave the single market, as world markets assume open trade to be a good thing. Ditto, the hard remainers desperation to see the UK fail is pretty sad. I was a remainer and my big worry was for the kids future in a closed off, increasingly illiberal UK (well England & Wales as I suspect the Scots are off) - but surely we all want to live in a successful economy?

 

Best thing for us now is to remove anybody making emotional bull**** arguments (Davis, Fox, Tusk, Hollande) from the negotiations, bung it to the boring people, and let them thrash out the compromise.

 

Saddest thing overall is the failure of the political class in all of this, but then what do they ever bring to a country. They are all a bunch of jumped up student debating society, local council, never had a job arseholes who don't understand what it takes to add value (jobs, money, taxes) to a country other than from reading it in books. ******s

 

The comment about the continentals sleeping half the afternoon was a stereotypical joke, very much tongue in cheek, hence the LOL. Being half Italian and having holidayed in Italy dozens of times, lived in Malta for three years and also visited most European Countries, I know full well that in the hotter Mediterranean countries particularly, the siesta is followed by work until 8pm or indeed later in tourist areas. Also I know Monfalcone very well where many of the World's largest liners including Cunard's have been built, having been born a few miles from there. However, it must be very difficult to make accurate productivity comparisons between countries with such diverse industries.

 

Whether one was for Remain or Leave, naturally both sides want to live in a successful future economy and each side believes that their position is the one most likely to deliver it.

 

Regarding the rest of your comments, I agree with much of what you say.

[buctootim]

The answer is obvious to me. Rather than importing food, we should be producing more ourselves, using technology that improves crop yields and efficiency of production.

Jeez...

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You endorsed the IEA's report which says "quitting the EU would also make it easier for Britain to buy food from all around the world and bring down our prices more". Now you are saying we shouldn't be importing as much. Which is it?

[Guided Missile]

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You endorsed the IEA's report which says "quitting the EU would also make it easier for Britain to buy food from all around the world and bring down our prices more". Now you are saying we shouldn't be importing as much. Which is it?

I rather think we will be continuing to import oranges, lemons, pineapples and olives, numbnuts....just not wheat from the Ukraine and Poland.

[buctootim]

I rather think we will be continuing to import oranges, lemons, pineapples and olives, numbnuts....just not wheat from the Ukraine and Poland.

 

Okay good. So the prices of oranges lemons pineapples etc are going up due to the pounds fall. So thats 50% which is more expensive. About the other 50% grown in Britain. Currently 50% of farmer's income comes from the CAP subsidies, without which the vast majority of farming in Britain wouldn't be economic. You're saying with GM crops we could double our yields to make up for that massive income drop from loss of CAP. Is that your claim?

 

Nb just fyi we dont generally import wheat from Poland or Ukraine. Britain is a nett exporter of wheat and the little we import comes from France, Germany and Canada. hth.

Edited 18 October, 2016 by buctootim

[Guided Missile]

Nb just fyi we dont generally import wheat from Poland or Ukraine. Britain is a nett exporter of wheat and the little we import comes from France, Germany and Canada. hth.

Don't make out you know anything about the UK farm economy, because you know squat...

 

Read this and learn...

 

EU plans to remove some trade barriers to Ukraine grain exports could intensify competition for UK growers, even though this might be marginal, say analysts. Under the proposals unveiled this week, Ukraine – one of the world’s biggest grain producers – will be allowed to export an addition 1.1m tonnes of feed grain into the EU without having to pay expensive trade tariffs, according to Agra-Europe Presse.

This is in addition to the tariff-free quotas covering 1.6m tonnes of grain Ukraine was granted under the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, which took effect on 1 January this year and which have already increased Ukrainian exports to the EU by 5%.

But, I hear you ask, Ukraine isn't even in the EU, so how can they export to the EU on a tariff-free basis and the UK, when it leaves the EU, won't? Maybe when Russia invades Scotland we'll be in the same situation....

[Guided Missile]

You're saying with GM crops we could double our yields to make up for that massive income drop from loss of CAP.

We make up from the loss of the CAP by paying less into the EU. You just don't get it, do you. The EU has been bribing farmers with their own money for years. When we stop paying, we will get double back for not having to subsidise inefficient French farmers.

 

You're not very smart, are you?

[OldNick]

Have you worked in Italy and France? I have - this is a classic fallacy of the small minded "we're better than everybody else" little Englander. The French work a very different shift from the UK - get in late, have a long lunch, but where I worked the working day didn't really finish until 8pm. Italy (Milan - Gucci) was also a place where everybody worked very very hard, and their industrial output is testament to that (reason they have the biggest shipyards in Europe perchance).

 

Both economies have structural problems - France in particular has terrible labour laws that as a business owner made it very difficult to hire and fire, and also is very protectionist (so ironically we will become more like them).

 

As productivity is a measure based on currency and hours worked, the tanking of the £ means our productivity will go down I'd suggest.

 

I'm finding this thread very very amusing and tragic to be honest. The hard leavers desperation to say that everything will be fine, when even the leave camp during the referendum said there would be an economic shock is amusing. Face it, there are a few years of hardship for the poor on the horizon, especially if we leave the single market, as world markets assume open trade to be a good thing. Ditto, the hard remainers desperation to see the UK fail is pretty sad. I was a remainer and my big worry was for the kids future in a closed off, increasingly illiberal UK (well England & Wales as I suspect the Scots are off) - but surely we all want to live in a successful economy?

 

Best thing for us now is to remove anybody making emotional bull**** arguments (Davis, Fox, Tusk, Hollande) from the negotiations, bung it to the boring people, and let them thrash out the compromise.

 

Saddest thing overall is the failure of the political class in all of this, but then what do they ever bring to a country. They are all a bunch of jumped up student debating society, local council, never had a job arseholes who don't understand what it takes to add value (jobs, money, taxes) to a country other than from reading it in books. ******s

IMO a very good post

[buctootim]

We make up from the loss of the CAP by paying less into the EU. You just don't get it, do you. The EU has been bribing farmers with their own money for years. When we stop paying, we will get double back for not having to subsidise inefficient French farmers.

 

You're not very smart, are you?

 

British farmers receive exactly the same level of subsidies as French ones - hill farmers three or four times more. So after Brexit the British farmer's income more than halves but that's okay because their productivity with GM's wonder pesticides and fertiliser products ™ will more than double production to magically make them cheaper than imports from Ukraine or Kenya. And the government saves money - except it will have to pay out exactly the same amounts again as under the CAP. You haven't got a single fact right yet. Every claim you have retreated from. Here's an easy primer for you.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11967049/Brexit-is-a-life-or-death-matter-for-Britains-farmers.html

[buctootim]

Don't make out you know anything about the UK farm economy, because you know squat...

 

Read this and learn...

 

 

But, I hear you ask, Ukraine isn't even in the EU, so how can they export to the EU on a tariff-free basis and the UK, when it leaves the EU, won't? Maybe when Russia invades Scotland we'll be in the same situation....

 

You cant even read your own references properly. Maize is not the same as wheat oddly enough. As I said Ukrainian wheat isnt imported to the UK. you can argue with the British Flour Milling Industry if you like. Im sure you know better.

http://www.nabim.org.uk/statistics/imports-and-exports/

https://cereals.ahdb.org.uk/markets/market-news/2015/september/24/prospects-world-wheat-imports-%E2%80%93-where-could-our-wheat-go-in-201516.aspx

Edited 18 October, 2016 by buctootim

[Guided Missile]

British farmers receive exactly the same level of subsidies as French ones - hill farmers three or four times more. So after Brexit the British farmer's income more than halves but that's okay because their productivity with GM's wonder pesticides and fertiliser products ™ will more than double production to magically make them cheaper than imports from Ukraine or Kenya. And the government saves money - except it will have to pay out exactly the same amounts again as under the CAP. You haven't got a single fact right yet. Every claim you have retreated from. Here's an easy primer for you.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11967049/Brexit-is-a-life-or-death-matter-for-Britains-farmers.html

 

Read below for an up to date summary, not your pre-Brexit, scaremongering b0ll0x (for your information, the EU has banned GM crops for absolutely no reason):

Press release: 31 May 2016: Dorchester, UK: In the nineteenth year of widespread adoption, crop biotechnology has continued to provide substantial economic and environmental benefits, allowing farmers to grow more, with fewer resources, whilst delivering important environmental benefits for all citizens (1). (Download full report in pdf)

‘Where farmers have been given the choice of growing GM crops, the economic benefits realized are clear and amounted to an average of over $100/hectare in 2014’ said Graham Brookes, director of PG Economics, co-author of the report. ‘Two-thirds of these benefits derive from higher yields and extra production, with farmers in developing countries seeing the highest gains. The environment is also benefiting as farmers increasingly adopt conservation tillage practices, build their weed management practices around more benign herbicides and replace insecticide use with insect resistant GM crops’

 

Highlights from this comprehensive review include:

Higher yielding crops

 

• The insect resistant (IR) technology used in cotton and corn has consistently delivered yield gains from reduced pest damage. The average yield gains over the 1996-2014 period across all users of this technology has been +13.1% for insect resistant corn and +17.3% for insect resistant cotton relative to conventional production systems. 2014 was also the second year IR soybeans were grown commercially in South America, where farmers have seen an average of +9.4% yield improvements;

• The herbicide tolerant (HT) technology used has also contributed to increased production; improving weed control and providing higher yields in some countries and helping farmers in Argentina grow ‘second crop’ soybeans after wheat in the same growing season (2) ;

Better returns for farmers – especially in developing countries

 

• Crop biotechnology helps farmers earn more secure incomes due mainly to improved control of pests and weeds. The net farm level economic benefit in 2014 was $17.7 billion, equal to an average increase in income of $101/hectare. For the 19 years (1996-2014), the global farm income gain has been $150.3 billion;

• The total farm income benefit of $150.3 billion was divided almost equally between farmers in developing (51%) and developed countries (49%);

• The highest yield gains continue to be for farmers in developing countries, many of which are resource-poor and farm small plots of land;

Excellent investment returns for farmers

 

• Crop biotechnology continues to be a good investment for millions of farmers. The cost farmers paid for accessing crop biotechnology in 2014 ($6.9 billion (3,4) payable to the seed supply chain) was equal to 28% of the total gains (a total of $24.6 billion). Globally, farmers received an average of $3.59 for each dollar invested in GM crop seeds;

• Farmers in developing countries received $4.42 for each dollar invested in GM crop seeds in 2014 (the cost is equal to 23% of total technology gains), while farmers in developed countries received $3.14 for each dollar invested in GM crop seed (the cost is equal to 32% of the total technology gains). The higher level of technology gains realised by farmers in developing countries relative to farmers in developed countries reflects weaker provision of intellectual property rights coupled with higher average levels of benefits in developing countries;

Reduced pressure on scare land resources and contribution to global food security

 

• Between 1996 and 2014, crop biotechnology was responsible for additional global production of 158.4 million tonnes of soybeans and 321.8 million tonnes of corn. The technology has also contributed an extra 24.7 million tonnes of cotton lint and 9.2 million tonnes of canola;

• GM crops are allowing farmers to grow more without using additional land. If crop biotechnology had not been available to the (18 million) farmers using the technology in 2014, maintaining global production levels at the 2014 levels would have required additional plantings of 7.5 million ha of soybeans, 8.9 million ha of corn, 3.7 million ha of cotton and 0.6 million ha of canola. This total area requirement is equivalent to 12% of the arable land in the US, or 33% of the arable land in Brazil or 14% of the cropping area in China;

Environmental improvements

 

• Crop biotechnology has contributed to significantly reducing the release of greenhouse gas emissions from agricultural practices. This results from less fuel use and additional soil carbon storage from reduced tillage with GM crops. In 2014, this was equivalent to removing 22.4 billion kg of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere or equal to removing 10 million cars from the road for one year;

• Crop biotechnology has reduced pesticide spraying (1996-2014) by 581 million kg (-8.2%). This is equal to the total amount of pesticide active ingredient applied to crops in China for more than a year (5) . As a result, this has decreased the environmental impact associated with herbicide and insecticide use on the area planted to biotech crops by 18.5% (6) .

 

The total farm income benefit of $150.3 billion was divided almost equally between farmers in developing (51%) and developed countries (49%)

 

Because of the EU, our farmers have benefited by the square root of f'all.

 

Now back on ignore for you, Mr. Clueless Google user....

[hutch]

What I'm wondering us why, post Brexit, British farmers would want to grow export crops that they can't export because the market is awash with cheap Ukrainian product, while the home market is crying out for other products that have become very expensive to import, that they could sell at home for a decent price.

 

Or maybe the farmers really aren't that stupid, but people just think they are.

[Guided Missile]

You cant even read your own references properly. Maize is not the same as wheat oddly enough.

http://www.nabim.org.uk/statistics/imports-and-exports/

https://cereals.ahdb.org.uk/markets/market-news/2015/september/24/prospects-world-wheat-imports-%E2%80%93-where-could-our-wheat-go-in-201516.aspx

Actually, I know that maize is not the same as wheat, but to a f**king cow eating it as animal feed there is f**k all difference apart from the price, which, when UK wheat, (used mainly for animal feed), is sold, competes with maize imports (maize, mainly grown using GM seed varieties as animal feed) The reason you don't see much maize grown in the EU is because the European corn root borer eats it all as we are not allowed to grow GM crops that express Bt, a natural insecticide.

Now, stop dribbling and googling at the same time. You're getting the keyboard wet...

[buctootim]

Actually, I know that maize is not the same as wheat, but to a f**king cow eating it as animal feed there is f**k all difference apart from the price, which, when UK wheat, (used mainly for animal feed), is sold, competes with maize imports (maize, mainly grown using GM seed varieties as animal feed) The reason you don't see much maize grown in the EU is because the European corn root borer eats it all as we are not allowed to grow GM crops that express Bt, a natural insecticide.

Now, stop dribbling and googling at the same time. You're getting the keyboard wet...

 

So we dont import Ukrainian or Polish wheat despite you telling us we did and you knowing the difference between the two (honest). You think we should produce more in the UK - but want to cut the CAP production subsidies that 90% of British farmers rely on to keep solvent. You think food will get cheaper despite the half of our food that is imported becoming more expensive due to the pounds decline. Have you thought about going into politics?

 

You talk some utter ****e. British farmers aren't price competitive without heavy European subsidies and tariffs on non EU imports. If we leave the EU the British government will either have to closely replicate the EU CAP subsidy and tariff schemes, or British agriculture will be all but wiped out.

Edited 18 October, 2016 by buctootim

[buctootim]

What I'm wondering us why, post Brexit, British farmers would want to grow export crops that they can't export because the market is awash with cheap Ukrainian product, while the home market is crying out for other products that have become very expensive to import, that they could sell at home for a decent price.

 

Or maybe the farmers really aren't that stupid, but people just think they are.

British arable farmers sell a lot of food grade wheat overseas. Its profitable for them to do that because they are financially supported by the EU CAP subsidies. Without that EU support then they wouldnt be price competitive. Im certainly not suggesting they are stupid.

[John B]

Take Brexit, add inflation, a collapsing pound, an interest rate rise and falling living standards and you get a mighty mess

[Jonnyboy]

Guided Missile:

Now back on ignore for you, Mr. Clueless Google user.

 

A sure sign someone feels they're losing the argument.

[buctootim]

A sure sign someone feels they're losing the argument.

 

Exactly. The Brexit campaign is mired in lies about some Polyanna world unnecessarily. When the pound drops prices of imports go up, including food prices. Why pretend they won't /don't? British farmers rely on EU subsidies for over half their income - up to 80% on hill farms. Remove those subsidies and most will go bankrupt. Why pretend they won't?

 

Guided Missiles carp about how genetically modified (transgenic) crops could make food wonderfully cheap if only it wasn't for the howwible EU is just another lie. The three largest arable crops in Britain are wheat, barley and oats. Have a guess how many tonnes of GM wheat, barley and oats are grown worldwide. Zero. There are no commercially grown GM variants available or approved anywhere in the world. Most grains have a much more complex genome than maize or soya beans and its generally too expensive to modify them and make a profit.

 

You can make a valid argument for stopping subsidising British agriculture and using the land to create more wild areas / national parks. Biodiversity and leisure opportunities would increase. You could import most of our food and reduce prices (though not as cheap as before the pounds fall). You could build needed housing on low grade / unattractive land. Equally you can make a valid argument for the British government continuing subsidising agriculture and fisheries at high levels - food security, reduction of imports, rural employment etc.

 

Why not debate on the real issues rather than made up ones about how everything is going to be great once we get rid of the EU subsidies / meddling and introduce good old British transgenic crops?

Edited 19 October, 2016 by buctootim

[moonraker]

The hard line Brexiters do not care what the consequences of Brexit are, they are ideologically incapable of coherent debate as the only thing that maters is leaving the EU. The erroneous arguments they continue to trot out are pitiful. The total disarray of UKIP is clear evidence that those who are most anti the EU have little or no ability, they are just a bunch of angry rabble rousers. The shame is they were only a minority of the 52% who voted leave, the majority did so as much out of frustration and disenchantment with the Westminster Government as with EU.

[solentstars]

The hard line Brexiters do not care what the consequences of Brexit are, they are ideologically incapable of coherent debate as the only thing that maters is leaving the EU. The erroneous arguments they continue to trot out are pitiful. The total disarray of UKIP is clear evidence that those who are most anti the EU have little or no ability, they are just a bunch of angry rabble rousers. The shame is they were only a minority of the 52% who voted leave, the majority did so as much out of frustration and disenchantment with the Westminster Government as with EU.

agree we live in a age of the stupid,just needs trump to complete the set but despite them useing the same tactics to apeal to ignorance and scapegoating and self interest i dont think america will go the same way.

[Wes Tender]

The shame is they were only a minority of the 52% who voted leave, the majority did so as much out of frustration and disenchantment with the Westminster Government as with EU.

 

This illustrates nicely that you really don't have a clue about what motivated people to vote to leave the EU. If voters are unhappy with the Government, they can vote them out in the next election. If they are unhappy with the EU, then this referendum was probably the only chance they would have in their lifetimes to get us out of it.

 

Congratulations though to you, and indeed the grammatically inept solentstars, on posts that typify the sheer arrogance of many of the Remainians on here. Dismissing over half of the electorate who voted to leave in the terms that you did is beyond contempt.

[badgerx16]

This illustrates nicely that you really don't have a clue about what motivated people to vote to leave the EU. If voters are unhappy with the Government, they can vote them out in the next election. ......

 

Wes whilst you are quite correct, there were several TV interviews immediately before and after the vote where interviewees stated that their vote was a protest against David Cameron specifically, or the Tory Government in general. ( There was also a snippet on Channel 4 where a man said he voted to leave the EU "to keep out Iraqi immigrants" ).

Edited 19 October, 2016 by badgerx16

[hutch]

There was also one where a woman said she voted to remain because she wanted to carry on going to Spain on her holidays.

 

Neither side had the intellectual high ground.

 

A bit like this thread.

[Wes Tender]

Plenty of good reasons why our Agricultural Industry will benefit once we leave the EU and using a lot of the cogent arguments that Timmy suggested could be made.

 

https://www.owenpaterson.org/news/uk-agriculture-would-be-better-outside-eu-oxford-farming-conference-january-2016

[aintforever]

British farmers rely on EU subsidies for over half their income - up to 80% on hill farms. Remove those subsidies and most will go bankrupt. Why pretend they won't?

 

You seem to be pretending that it is the EU giving us subsidies. They are just giving us back a percentage of what we give them. It's our money and most of it subsidises other EU countries.