Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[badgerx16]

3 new trade deals; Norway, ( but this does not include actual access to their fishing grounds ), Iceland, and the massive economic powerhouse that is...........Leichtenstein.

[Tamesaint]

44 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

3 new trade deals; Norway, ( but this does not include actual access to their fishing grounds ), Iceland, and the massive economic powerhouse that is...........Leichtenstein.

Lichtenstein is apparently a powerhouse in the world of false teeth manufacture. The Tories looking after their core voters I suppose.

.

[supersonic]

So one of the selling points of Brexit was that we can create our own laws and be free of interference from Europe.

Yet we now can't send fresh meat from London to Belfast as per EU legislation 🤦🏻‍♂️

[buctootim]

Looks like Boris’ plan of signing up to a crap deal, reneging on it and blaming the EU is falling apart . The EU are united and now the US is backing them in the dispute. 

[Antrimsaint]

Magic aussie trade deal eh. Have you seen what they are allowed to sell into our markets and their food standards? F’in atrocious. I had no idea. British farmers must be furious at what they voted for

[Antrimsaint]

[whelk]

Refreshing to see at least some hope that the Tory gift cannot do what they like. Living off a vaccine bounce for now,

[CB Fry]

51 minutes ago, whelk said:

Refreshing to see at least some hope that the Tory gift cannot do what they like. Living off a vaccine bounce for now,

By my calculations this should mean that the Liberal Democrats should secure a 304 seat majority in the next general election.

[egg]

On 16/06/2021 at 12:27, Antrimsaint said:

Magic aussie trade deal eh. Have you seen what they are allowed to sell into our markets and their food standards? F’in atrocious. I had no idea. British farmers must be furious at what they voted for

The nature of the beast mate. We voted brexit to do trade deals with the rest of the world, and we ain't got the clout to insist on radical changes in the countries we deal with. 

[Antrimsaint]

24 minutes ago, egg said:

The nature of the beast mate. We voted brexit to do trade deals with the rest of the world, and we ain't got the clout to insist on radical changes in the countries we deal with. 

We knew this beforehand. Turkeys voting for Xmas. What a shitshow and now Britain cant even pick its food. Its all we hoped for yes 👏 

[Antrimsaint]

“ Brexit opportunities unit” love it. It gets more Alan Partridge by the minute.

[Antrimsaint]

Brexit benefit number 1234? UK steel EU protections to be stripped allowing cheap imports and thus destroying uk steel in one fell swoop 👏.

carry on , nothing to see here

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Antrimsaint said:

Brexit benefit number 1234? UK steel EU protections to be stripped allowing cheap imports and thus destroying uk steel in one fell swoop 👏.

carry on , nothing to see here

Lol. The steel argument once again!  See previous posts on the UK steel industry decimation which has never been an issue until Brexit!

Nothing in there to stop the UK steel industry from being more competitive (apart from the fact that the whole industry is a basket case and will fail unless propped up by tax income!)

[Antrimsaint]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Lol. The steel argument once again!  See previous posts on the UK steel industry decimation which has never been an issue until Brexit!

Nothing in there to stop the UK steel industry from being more competitive (apart from the fact that the whole industry is a basket case and will fail unless propped up by tax income!)

Again, surely the loss of peoples jobs is no laughing matter. We had the might of EU state aid to mitigate against these scenarios but your happier to see the Chinese flood our markets whilst the EU can protect theirs. What a patriot!

Remind me of all the benefits so far.

[egg]

Whilst I can't see any benefits of brexit so far, the steel argument is a poor one. Our steel industry was shot to pieces years ago. Whether we import steel from the EU, China or elsewhere, it ain't British. 

[buctootim]

1 minute ago, egg said:

Whilst I can't see any benefits of brexit so far, the steel argument is a poor one. Our steel industry was shot to pieces years ago. Whether we import steel from the EU, China or elsewhere, it ain't British. 

Steel is a strategically vital resource. It's one of those products and commodities - like food, energy, electronics, defence etc that you cant entirely give up on and rely on imports from potentially hostile countries. Arguably there was more chance of having a viable UK steel industry as part of the EU anti dumping tariffs.   

[egg]

1 minute ago, buctootim said:

Steel is a strategically vital resource. It's one of those products and commodities - like food, energy, electronics, defence etc that you cant entirely give up on and rely on imports from potentially hostile countries. Arguably there was more chance of having a viable UK steel industry as part of the EU anti dumping tariffs.   

All great in theory, but the fact is that we've all but abandoned our steel industry. Remaining in the EU wouldn't make any difference to whether we have a viable steel industry going forward. 

[buctootim]

Just now, egg said:

All great in theory, but the fact is that we've all but abandoned our steel industry. Remaining in the EU wouldn't make any difference to whether we have a viable steel industry going forward. 

Steel is still a bigger industry than fishing and with greater claim to be a vital national interest. Everyone knows we are never going to be competitive with China but retaining vestiges of the industry and skills in this country is important.    

[egg]

11 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Steel is still a bigger industry than fishing and with greater claim to be a vital national interest. Everyone knows we are never going to be competitive with China but retaining vestiges of the industry and skills in this country is important.    

Again, nothing to do with brexit. 

[buctootim]

6 minutes ago, egg said:

Again, nothing to do with brexit. 

Lol. You're like a stuck record - rebutting things no one said. Indeed I pointedly avoided mentioning Brexit. Before the but but buts arrive - its perfectly possible to continue co-ordination on strategic industries without being a member, just as is happening on nuclear and fish    

[egg]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

Lol. You're like a stuck record - rebutting things no one said. Indeed I pointedly avoided mentioning Brexit. Before the but but buts arrive - its perfectly possible to continue co-ordination on strategic industries without being a member, just as is happening on nuclear and fish    

Tim, this is a post brexit thread, not a general "industry revival" one. 

[egg]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

Lol. You're like a stuck record - rebutting things no one said. Indeed I pointedly avoided mentioning Brexit. Before the but but buts arrive - its perfectly possible to continue co-ordination on strategic industries without being a member, just as is happening on nuclear and fish    

Tim, this is a post brexit thread, not a general "industry revival" one. 

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, Antrimsaint said:

Again, surely the loss of peoples jobs is no laughing matter. We had the might of EU state aid to mitigate against these scenarios but your happier to see the Chinese flood our markets whilst the EU can protect theirs. What a patriot!

Remind me of all the benefits so far.

What are you blithering on about?

State aid - for propping up industries - is not permitted under EU rules.

Since leaving the single market we are not bound by those rules, therefore it is possible for the UK to provide as much state aid to the steel industry as it wants without breaking the previous rules!

The fact that the Government has chosen not to throw good money after bad to pursue this should tell you what you need to know about the state of the industry!

I think you've managed to confuse yourself between EU anti dumping rules and state aid.  Not a great look when you're trying to troll  

[Antrimsaint]

36 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

What are you blithering on about?

State aid - for propping up industries - is not permitted under EU rules.

Since leaving the single market we are not bound by those rules, therefore it is possible for the UK to provide as much state aid to the steel industry as it wants without breaking the previous rules!

The fact that the Government has chosen not to throw good money after bad to pursue this should tell you what you need to know about the state of the industry!

I think you've managed to confuse yourself between EU anti dumping rules and state aid.  Not a great look when you're trying to troll  

Fair point, not as au fait with the details in steel aid but my point still stands. I feel the industry would have been safer within the protectionism of the EU, like it or loathe it. We are at the mercy of the sharks. 
 

My intent is not to troll, maybe a little, but to try and understand why and how we have walked willingly in such self harm. I really am bewildered. I would love to be wrong, I really, really would but I cannot see for the life of me what we have gained, really gained from having to go through all the divisions to make it worthwhile.

 I really, really loved this country but it has released demons that I thought England would never accept.

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Tim, this is a post brexit thread, not a general "industry revival" one. 

So all your answers are directed to thread title rather than point made? An odd strategy to say the least  

[egg]

7 minutes ago, buctootim said:

So all your answers are directed to thread title rather than point made? An odd strategy to say the least  

Yes. Weston and Antrim were commenting on steel post brexit, on a post brexit thread, so oddly enough I commented on steel in a post brexit context. Odd that you find that odd. 

If you want to start a thread about industry revival, crack on, and for what it's worth I'm all for the revival of the steel industry if its economically viable. 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, Antrimsaint said:

Fair point, not as au fait with the details in steel aid but my point still stands. I feel the industry would have been safer within the protectionism of the EU, like it or loathe it. We are at the mercy of the sharks. 

European steel would have (still will be) safer within the protectionism of the EU.  British Steel would have been left to rot in the same way as when we were part of the EU.  Unless you think the EU tariffs were designed specifically to benefit British Steel?

[Antrimsaint]

29 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

European steel would have (still will be) safer within the protectionism of the EU.  British Steel would have been left to rot in the same way as when we were part of the EU.  Unless you think the EU tariffs were designed specifically to benefit British Steel?

As I said, not my area of expertise so will bow to your knowledge. I assumed within the EU uk was safe from cheaper lower quality Chinese imports of steel and could use EU clout as a buffer but alone in a sea of sharks can now be picked off by the world inc EU.

 I knew steel was already in the mire but I think, the argument could be made that another chair (brexit)was kicked out from under it so hastening the demise.

Its just a pattern I see developing. When you are part of the herd you are safer than when cast aloof. May be simplistic but every story I see we are now losing whether its fishing, farming, steel, financial markets. Where are the WINS?

[Weston Super Saint]

47 minutes ago, Antrimsaint said:

As I said, not my area of expertise so will bow to your knowledge. I assumed within the EU uk was safe from cheaper lower quality Chinese imports of steel and could use EU clout as a buffer but alone in a sea of sharks can now be picked off by the world inc EU.

 I knew steel was already in the mire but I think, the argument could be made that another chair (brexit)was kicked out from under it so hastening the demise.

Its just a pattern I see developing. When you are part of the herd you are safer than when cast aloof. May be simplistic but every story I see we are now losing whether its fishing, farming, steel, financial markets. Where are the WINS?

No-one is forcing 'cheaper lower quality Chinese imported steel' on anyone!

Not sure how / why the UK isn't 'safe' because cheaper lower quality steel may or may not exist. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Antrim’s all over the place. 

[Antrimsaint]

27 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

No-one is forcing 'cheaper lower quality Chinese imported steel' on anyone!

Not sure how / why the UK isn't 'safe' because cheaper lower quality steel may or may not exist. 

Good grief, no need to try and catch me out. Was just interested in an honest perspective and acknowledgement that what we are seeing, in general, is a pattern of decline. I personally think the UK was already in that period but believe Brexit has sped that process up.

The whole post refers to stories that show this chipping away at Britains clout and its diminishment globally.

you can defend Brexit, thats fine but I have tried to see the upside and I can’t, and I don’t get it. Why vote to be poorer, have less influence, less protections etc.
That view may also be my bias but no one up to now has given me the wins in comparison to our losses. Can you see that? Again, I don’t like being this confused so just trying to gain understanding 

[Antrimsaint]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Antrim’s all over the place. 

Grim, me old china

[Antrimsaint]

37 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

sure how / why the UK isn't 'safe' because cheaper lower quality steel may or may not exist. 

Its a metaphor for being in the gang than being outside looking in.

[badgerx16]

54 minutes ago, Antrimsaint said:

Good grief, no need to try and catch me out. ....

Standard tactic on here.

[Weston Super Saint]

 

12 hours ago, Antrimsaint said:

Its a metaphor for being in the gang than being outside looking in.

Ah, I see!  So when you said we would be 'safe' you were referring to us being in a 'herd' and having safety in numbers rather than specifically stating that the Chinese make lower quality cheaper steel that we would automatically be burdened with and therefore live in a much more 'dangerous' country.

 

13 hours ago, Antrimsaint said:

I assumed within the EU uk was safe from cheaper lower quality Chinese imports of steel

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

 

Ah, I see!  So when you said we would be 'safe' you were referring to us being in a 'herd' and having safety in numbers rather than specifically stating that the Chinese make lower quality cheaper steel that we would automatically be burdened with and therefore live in a much more 'dangerous' country.

 

Why do you do this to yourself? Antrim is right.  The EU has anti dumping protections on steel which primarily affects the Chinese. Obviously UK produced steel still faced competition from other producers in the EU but on a level playing field in that costs wrrr more comparable and production wasn’t government subsidised  

Edited 22 June, 2021 by buctootim

[badgerx16]

Another Brexit "benefit" may be looming, this time for the UK TV and film industries: there is talk that as the UK is now a 'third country' there is too much UK produced televisual content on EU television channels and streaming services.

[Antrimsaint]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

Another Brexit "benefit" may be looming, this time for the UK TV and film industries: there is talk that as the UK is now a 'third country' there is too much UK produced televisual content on EU television channels and streaming services.

Im still waiting for one of the benefits.

To be fair the Europeans have some cracking shows of late. Lupin is fantastic lol.

[Antrimsaint]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

 

Ah, I see!  So when you said we would be 'safe' you were referring to us being in a 'herd' and having safety in numbers rather than specifically stating that the Chinese make lower quality cheaper steel that we would automatically be burdened with and therefore live in a much more 'dangerous' country.

 

Rather than nitpicking every word, why don’t  you respond with all the Brexit benefits we have had so far

[badgerx16]

54 minutes ago, Antrimsaint said:

Im still waiting for one of the benefits.

To be fair the Europeans have some cracking shows of late. Lupin is fantastic lol.

What I find amusing is the outrage on the front pages of the Express and the Telegraph: this is something that was inevitable, and the Government were warned about. These papers campaigned for Brexit, but don't like the fact that the EU is now predictably shutting the door on us.

Edited 22 June, 2021 by badgerx16

[Antrimsaint]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

What I find amusing is the outrage on the front pages of the Express and the Telegraph: this is something that was inevitable, and the Government were warned about. These papers campaigned for Brexit, but don't like the fact that the EU is now predictably shutting the door on us.

They are now our competitors. It’s like we are Taiwan off the coast of China. What did they think would happen.

we will be their bitch. They can whinge all they like but we voted for it. It’s what we wanted.

Britain is now Europe’s gimp. How tragic.

[Weston Super Saint]

7 hours ago, buctootim said:

Why do you do this to yourself? Antrim is right.  The EU has anti dumping protections on steel which primarily affects the Chinese. Obviously UK produced steel still faced competition from other producers in the EU but on a level playing field in that costs wrrr more comparable and production wasn’t government subsidised  

Do what exactly?

I think, once more, you've grasped the wrong end of the stick.  Antrim claimed that the Chinese have dumped 'cheaper, LOWER QUALITY' steel and that has put the UK at more RISK now that we have left the EU.  That is complete and utter horseshit.

At no point have I stated that the EU haven't imposed tarriffs on steel from China (like they also have with Turkey, US, Russia), quite the opposite, as I pointed out that the tarriffs were imposed whilst we were members of the EU (and that it did little to save the basket case that is our steel industry, despite the level playing field!).

Antrim is right that the EU has anti dumping tarriffs to guard against cheaper steel imports, I've never claimed he isn't (that just seems to be something you've assumed)  I have, however, pointed out that tarriffs are not 'state sponsorship' as he previously claimed.

I have also argued against his claim that the steel from China is not only cheaper but is also of LOWER QUALITY which is putting the UK at risk.  There is absolutely no evidence for this whatsoever!

So, what exactly have I done to myself?

[Weston Super Saint]

5 hours ago, Antrimsaint said:

Rather than nitpicking every word, why don’t  you respond with all the Brexit benefits we have had so far

Why do I need to respond with all the Brexit benefits?  I've picked you up on your dragging up of the steel argument (which we've had on this thread already and debunked).

At no point have I given an opinion one way or the other regarding any other benefits.  It has been made quite clear that any benefits will be gained over time and will take a number of years to come to fruition.  I'm happy to see if that does / doesn't come true, unlike you who has clearly decided that because there are no tangible benefits in the last six months then there never will be!

For what it's worth, I think we will see an enormous issue developing with the labour market in the next 6 to 12 months when it becomes clear that all the jobs that 'johnny foreigner' has been 'taking from us' aren't actually jobs that people want to do!  It may even reach a point where the whole movement of labour is re-evaluated (which would be a good thing).  

[badgerx16]

39 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Do what exactly?

I think, once more, you've grasped the wrong end of the stick.  Antrim claimed that the Chinese have dumped 'cheaper, LOWER QUALITY' steel and that has put the UK at more RISK now that we have left the EU. 

Historically this is true, and some say it still continues, ( despite China claiming that it is tidying up it's steel industry );

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/business/yorkshire-industrialist-sir-andrew-cook-calls-for-wholesale-ban-on-unsafe-chinese-steel-imports-3250370

 

The Chinese are quite capable of producing steel equal to anything that Europe or the US can produce, but the regulation of the industry, as with so much of Chinese industrial output, is subject to practices and quality control that at best could at times be described as "dubious".

Edited 22 June, 2021 by badgerx16

[Antrimsaint]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Why do I need to respond with all the Brexit benefits?  I've picked you up on your dragging up of the steel argument (which we've had on this thread already and debunked).

At no point have I given an opinion one way or the other regarding any other benefits.  It has been made quite clear that any benefits will be gained over time and will take a number of years to come to fruition.  I'm happy to see if that does / doesn't come true, unlike you who has clearly decided that because there are no tangible benefits in the last six months then there never will be!

For what it's worth, I think we will see an enormous issue developing with the labour market in the next 6 to 12 months when it becomes clear that all the jobs that 'johnny foreigner' has been 'taking from us' aren't actually jobs that people want to do!  It may even reach a point where the whole movement of labour is re-evaluated (which would be a good thing).  

Such an easy way out. Wait and see!!!

I wanted benefits from day 1 if we were forced into this. I don’t see it. Not after 6 months, when then?

No its a cluster and the brexit diehards are so obstinate they cannot back down.

simple question is it going well or not?

Is it going well for farmers, fishermen etc?

What are we waiting to see? Is it 5,10,50 years for the benefits?

[Weston Super Saint]

14 minutes ago, Antrimsaint said:

Such an easy way out. Wait and see!!!

I wanted benefits from day 1 if we were forced into this. I don’t see it. Not after 6 months, when then?

No its a cluster and the brexit diehards are so obstinate they cannot back down.

simple question is it going well or not?

Is it going well for farmers, fishermen etc?

What are we waiting to see? Is it 5,10,50 years for the benefits?

Fair enough.  You wanted it from day 1, that was never going to happen.

You carry on being angry for the next decade or so!

[Tamesaint]

39 minutes ago, Antrimsaint said:

Such an easy way out. Wait and see!!!

I wanted benefits from day 1 if we were forced into this. I don’t see it. Not after 6 months, when then?

No its a cluster and the brexit diehards are so obstinate they cannot back down.

simple question is it going well or not?

Is it going well for farmers, fishermen etc?

What are we waiting to see? Is it 5,10,50 years for the benefits?

Well our yougsters will soon be able to work and live in Australia.....

Mind you they have lost the rights to work and live in all the countries of the EU.... which are a damn sight more accessible than Australia.

 

[Antrimsaint]

58 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Fair enough.  You wanted it from day 1, that was never going to happen.

You carry on being angry for the next decade or so!

I suppose if it doesn’t affect you directly it doesn’t matter.

of course Ill remain angry. It affects family, friends and generations to come. And it affects Northern Ireland my home. Such much ignorance and blindness to what this has unleashed

It doesn’t affect me directly yet as I am a Dual national but when you light the tinderbox of Ireland it will come to your shores. Maybe that’s when you’ll get angry.

[Antrimsaint]

36 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

Well our yougsters will soon be able to work and live in Australia.....

Mind you they have lost the rights to work and live in all the countries of the EU.... which are a damn sight more accessible than Australia.

 

When were they not able to work in Australia? Its exactly the same.

[Lord Duckhunter]

When we’re we not able to work in France, my aunty did in the 60’s

Edited 22 June, 2021 by Lord Duckhunter