Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Verbal]

6 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

They are in for a rude awakening when we hold firm as the clock ticks away towards WTO.

How apt that a Brexit jihadist should use a bomb analogy.

[Weston Super Saint]

49 minutes ago, Verbal said:

How apt that a Brexit jihadist should use a bomb analogy.

Maybe I missed it, where exactly was the 'bomb analogy'?

[Wes Tender]

27 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Maybe I missed it, where exactly was the 'bomb analogy'?

I missed it too. Maybe Verbal has a bad case of Verbal Diarrhea.

I must have also missed his comments accusing the EU of a bomb analogy when Barnier/Verhofstadt or whoever else used that phrase to describe the shortening timescale

[ecuk268]

4 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

Why all these posts about Cummings on the Brexit thread? There's a perfectly good Boris Johnson thread which would be more appropriate. Unless of course there is some idiotic, misguided assumption that his departure will somehow affect the WA negotiations. It seems as if some believe the claptrap conclusions put out by the remoaner media that we will be desperate to cave in to the EU's demands and drop our red lines to gain a FTA with them. If the EU are also stupid enough to believe that to be the case, then they are in for a rude awakening when we hold firm as the clock ticks away towards WTO.

I always try to hold firm as the clock ticks away but it's not easy🤨

[buctootim]

Unelected British bureaucrat sacked by prime minister's girlfriend - we got our democracy back! 

Edited 14 November, 2020 by buctootim

[Wes Tender]

2 hours ago, buctootim said:

Unelected British bureaucrat sacked by prime minister's girlfriend - we got our democracy back! 

Did Boris' girlfriend sack Cummings? I look forward to you posting the evidence instead of gormless tittle tattle.

[buctootim]

4 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

Did Boris' girlfriend sack Cummings? I look forward to you posting the evidence instead of gormless tittle tattle.

[Wes Tender]

Are those your incontinence pants, Timmy? Do you get a good supply in to see you through this lockdown?

[Weston Super Saint]

14 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

Are those your incontinence pants, Timmy? Do you get a good supply in to see you through this lockdown?

Those are the Norwegian option  

[Weston Super Saint]

The roses aren't smelling so great across the water in EU land :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54964858

Quote

Hungary and Poland have blocked approval of the EU's budget over a clause that ties EU funding with adherence to the rule of law.

The financial package includes €750bn for a coronavirus recovery fund.

 

[Wes Tender]

Panic begins to set in to the EU, who are warning us in increasingly shrill terms that if we want a FTA with them, the time available for us to wave the white flag and ignominiously surrender on our red lines is fast running out. As we have repeatedly insisted that we will not alter our position on those same red lines that have existed in the talks for several months, either the EU will have to relent, or we are out on WTO terms. Some in the EU say that it is already too late for them to ratify the deal even now and it looks as if they have badly misjudged our determination to stand firm, overplayed their own hand and are the architects of their own downfall.

Apart from their own internal problems with Hungary and Poland vetoing their budget, they can no longer claim that the EU is the biggest trading bloc in the World, as that is now the RCEP. And as fisheries and the control of our own coastal waters is one of the major flies in the ointment preventing a FTA with the EU, it is interesting that during the past couple of months we have agreed arrangement over fisheries with Norway, the Faroe Islands, Greenland and now Iceland.

[badgerx16]

2 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

...during the past couple of months we have agreed arrangement over fisheries with Norway, the Faroe Islands, Greenland and now Iceland.

We have signed "Memoranda of Understanding" to maintain access based on existing quotas, to review the quotas annually, and to share information on management of fish stocks and relevant advances in technology. No biggy, just maintaining the status quo.

[hypochondriac]

12 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

We have signed "Memoranda of Understanding" to maintain access based on existing quotas, to review the quotas annually, and to share information on management of fish stocks and relevant advances in technology. No biggy, just maintaining the status quo.

Seems reasonable. The EU are seemingly rejecting annual quota reviews though which seems incredibly unreasonable. 

[John B]

As we survey the total collapse of all pretence that Brexit is going to be anything other than an epic shitshow, it’s impossible to understand how anyone who supported it can be anything other than insane or devastated. And they’re not devastated. They’re not even sorry.

[buctootim]

16 minutes ago, John B said:

they’re not devastated. They’re not even sorry.

and they don't even know or admit its a shit show. 

[buctootim]

41 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Seems reasonable. The EU are seemingly rejecting annual quota reviews though which seems incredibly unreasonable. 

Are we asking for annual reviews of our tariff free access to the single market or do we want an open ended long term deal?   

Edited 17 November, 2020 by buctootim

[hypochondriac]

14 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Are we asking for annual reviews of our tariff free access to the single market or do we want an open ended long term deal?   

Do other third countries have annual reviews of their tariff free access?

[aintforever]

31 minutes ago, John B said:

As we survey the total collapse of all pretence that Brexit is going to be anything other than an epic shitshow, it’s impossible to understand how anyone who supported it can be anything other than insane or devastated. And they’re not devastated. They’re not even sorry.

It is like watching a really slow motion car crash. 

[badgerx16]

2 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Seems reasonable. The EU are seemingly rejecting annual quota reviews though which seems incredibly unreasonable. 

Of course it is reasonable, but it is hardly ground breaking or worthy of stringing out the Union Jack bunting.

[Wes Tender]

1 hour ago, John B said:

As we survey the total collapse of all pretence that Brexit is going to be anything other than an epic shitshow, it’s impossible to understand how anyone who supported it can be anything other than insane or devastated. And they’re not devastated. They’re not even sorry.

Absolutely nothing to be sorry for. It's remoaners like you who believe that it will be an epic shit-show. Those who have wanted to free ourselves for some time from the control of the failing, federal euro-cartel gravy train are perfectly content, thank you.

If we are doomed to ignominious failure by leaving the EU teat, one wonders why they are so intent on trying to restrict our ability to run our own affairs. It couldn't be that they are petrified that we will make a real success of it and become a serious competitor right there on their doorstep, could it?

 

[Wes Tender]

What is also noteworthy, is the increasing panic of Ireland, who were very happy to act as the EU's lackey when they enabled them to weaponise the Irish border. It was working well under May's spineless and clueless government, but now that our negotiations are in far more capable hands, they are bricking it that there might be no deal, and that they will have been a major factor towards that scenario. In that situation, their economy will be the biggest single loser, as we are the biggest market for their goods. As it is, they are also being asked to cough up more per capita into the EU's Chinese virus slush fund than any other EU member state. Irexit cannot be too far behind.

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Do other third countries have annual reviews of their tariff free access?

Not as far as Im aware. So you agree it makes no sense for us to demand it.  

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, buctootim said:

Not as far as Im aware. So you agree it makes no sense for us to demand it.  

Does the EU currently get virtual unlimited access to the fishing waters of other countries with no regular negotiations? 

[Weston Super Saint]

37 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Of course it is reasonable, but it is hardly ground breaking or worthy of stringing out the Union Jack bunting.

Shows how easy it can be to negotiate when sensible people are involved doesn't it?

[badgerx16]

18 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

What is also noteworthy, is the increasing panic of Ireland, who were very happy to act as the EU's lackey when they enabled them to weaponise the Irish border. It was working well under May's spineless and clueless government, but now that our negotiations are in far more capable hands, they are bricking it that there might be no deal, and that they will have been a major factor towards that scenario. In that situation, their economy will be the biggest single loser, as we are the biggest market for their goods. As it is, they are also being asked to cough up more per capita into the EU's Chinese virus slush fund than any other EU member state. Irexit cannot be too far behind.

Ireland's Foreign Minister speaking on Sunday;

Mr Coveney told Sky News: “If you want to use sporting parlance, this is move week. We have got to make big progress this week, hopefully we have got to get the big issues resolved in principle this week.” He also repeated that any trade deal would not be approved by the EU unless Mr Johnson dropped his threat, contained in his internal market bill, to break commitments on Northern Ireland in his withdrawal treaty.

 

Definitely panicing.

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Shows how easy it can be to negotiate when sensible people are involved doesn't it?

It only requires one side to be sensible, no need for the UK side to follow suit.

[buctootim]

56 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Shows how easy it can be to negotiate when sensible people are involved doesn't it?

That is Britain wanting to roll over existing arrangements. Very different to insisting on cherry picking. 

[buctootim]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Does the EU currently get virtual unlimited access to the fishing waters of other countries with no regular negotiations? 

Jeez this is dull. We want things from the EU. Weirdly enough in return they want things from us. We want our stuff to be multi year. They want their stuff to be multi year. 

All this whaaaaaabulance stuff about infringing our sovereignty is just juvenile. 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Does the EU currently get virtual unlimited access to the fishing waters of other countries with no regular negotiations? 

The EU has not had 'virtual unlimited' access to UK fishing waters either.

[ecuk268]

18 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The EU has not had 'virtual unlimited' access to UK fishing waters either.

UK fishing is worth about £1.8bn which is less than the turnover of Harrods. 

Back in the 80's the EU offered its members grants to modernise their fishing fleets. The only proviso was that each country had to contribute an equivalent amount. Thatcher decided that the UK would not take part, so French and Dutch fleets were modernised and expanded and ours stagnated. 

Many UK fishermen either then sold their quotas and leased them to European operators. 75% of UK fish is exported, mostly to the EU. if there's no deal these exports will be subject to a 48 hour certification process with the resulting loss of quality and value of the catch.

Why so much fuss over an industry which is less than 0.1% of our GDP?

 

[badgerx16]

5 minutes ago, ecuk268 said:

UK fishing is worth about £1.8bn which is less than the turnover of Harrods. 

Back in the 80's the EU offered its members grants to modernise their fishing fleets. The only proviso was that each country had to contribute an equivalent amount. Thatcher decided that the UK would not take part, so French and Dutch fleets were modernised and expanded and ours stagnated. 

Many UK fishermen either then sold their quotas and leased them to European operators. 75% of UK fish is exported, mostly to the EU. if there's no deal these exports will be subject to a 48 hour certification process with the resulting loss of quality and value of the catch.

Why so much fuss over an industry which is less than 0.1% of our GDP?

 

Quite. The UK has always had 'control' over it's own waters, it just chose to mismanage the quota system that it itself created.

Edited 17 November, 2020 by badgerx16

[buctootim]

7 minutes ago, ecuk268 said:

UK fishing is worth about £1.8bn which is less than the turnover of Harrods. 

Back in the 80's the EU offered its members grants to modernise their fishing fleets. The only proviso was that each country had to contribute an equivalent amount. Thatcher decided that the UK would not take part, so French and Dutch fleets were modernised and expanded and ours stagnated. 

Many UK fishermen either then sold their quotas and leased them to European operators. 75% of UK fish is exported, mostly to the EU. if there's no deal these exports will be subject to a 48 hour certification process with the resulting loss of quality and value of the catch.

Why so much fuss over an industry which is less than 0.1% of our GDP?

 

Exactly. Its a tiny industry whose problems stem from the actions of British permit holders and the British Government. Yes small scale fishermen have been screwed but it very little to do with the EU who get the blame. 

 https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/uncovered-rich-list-codfathers-dominating-uks-fishing-industry/

 https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2019/03/07/fishing-brexit-uk-fleetwood/

[Wes Tender]

33 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The EU has not had 'virtual unlimited' access to UK fishing waters either.

😁They enjoy substantially less limited access to our territorial waters than we do. When they propose that they be allowed to continue with quotas at the levels they have enjoyed for the past 40 years, restricting us to a small proportion of our own resource, I'd certainly consider their access to be virtually unlimited by comparison.

And why are we so concerned about an industry with such a small economic return? The answer ought to be obvious if one considers that any FTA with the EU might fall down over this issue and a couple of others; it is a matter of principle, of sovereignty. I realise that you remoaners don't consider it a worthwhile stance, but then you obviously fail to fully realise the political implications. You might also wonder why the French are so adamant that they will not sign a FTA unless we grant them the same access as before we left the EU, when fishing represents a very small percentage of their GDP also. Macron considers it important to his chances of continuing as President, and if Boris took the view that you lot do and capitulated, Heath like over this issue, then the electoral implications would be dire. You lot don't seem to recognise this.

 

[badgerx16]

28 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

😁They enjoy substantially less limited access to our territorial waters than we do. When they propose that they be allowed to continue with quotas at the levels they have enjoyed for the past 40 years, restricting us to a small proportion of our own resource, I'd certainly consider their access to be virtually unlimited by comparison.

 

 

 Come on Wes, we've been through this already on here; The UK Government is solely responsible for the allocation of fishing quotas for UK waters, apportioned through Production Organisations, and based on historical landings and size of vessels. The fact that EU companies and masters hold so much of our quota is because the UK fishing induustry sold it to them.

Edited 17 November, 2020 by badgerx16

[Wes Tender]

12 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

 Come on Wes, we've been through this already on here; The UK Government is solely responsible for the allocation of fishing quotas for UK waters, apportioned through Production Organisations, and based on historical landings and size of vessels. The fact that EU companies and masters hold so much of our quota is because the UK fishing induustry sold it to them.

It's largely irrelevant to talk about the past at this stage. The whole situation certainly was the responsibility of past governments, starting with Grocer Heath, but exacerbated by the CFP whereby our waters became a common EEC resource apart from a narrow coastal strip. Now that we have left the EU, it is in our hands to determine the future of the industry and hopefully the government will grasp the opportunity both to grow it back and also to protect the fish stocks in our waters.

[hypochondriac]

15 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

😁They enjoy substantially less limited access to our territorial waters than we do. When they propose that they be allowed to continue with quotas at the levels they have enjoyed for the past 40 years, restricting us to a small proportion of our own resource, I'd certainly consider their access to be virtually unlimited by comparison.

And why are we so concerned about an industry with such a small economic return? The answer ought to be obvious if one considers that any FTA with the EU might fall down over this issue and a couple of others; it is a matter of principle, of sovereignty. I realise that you remoaners don't consider it a worthwhile stance, but then you obviously fail to fully realise the political implications. You might also wonder why the French are so adamant that they will not sign a FTA unless we grant them the same access as before we left the EU, when fishing represents a very small percentage of their GDP also. Macron considers it important to his chances of continuing as President, and if Boris took the view that you lot do and capitulated, Heath like over this issue, then the electoral implications would be dire. You lot don't seem to recognise this.

 

Yes that was my point. Well said.

[badgerx16]

18 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

😁 

 

I realise that you remoaners don't consider it a worthwhile stance, but then you obviously fail to fully realise the political implications. You might also wonder why the French are so adamant that they will not sign a FTA unless we grant them the same access as before we left the EU, when fishing represents a very small percentage of their GDP also. Macron considers it important to his chances of continuing as President, and if Boris took the view that you lot do and capitulated, Heath like over this issue, then the electoral implications would be dire. You lot don't seem to recognise this.

 

Perhaps people don't share your almost gloating desire for WTO, seeing it as bad for the UK's economic future, and therefore digging our heels in over a comparitively insignificant issue is picking the wrong fight.

[saint1977]

58 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Perhaps people don't share your almost gloating desire for WTO, seeing it as bad for the UK's economic future, and therefore digging our heels in over a comparitively insignificant issue is picking the wrong fight.

Probably best he doesn’t read the DT saying today that the French have shifted on this issue and according to Coveney there is a ‘landing space for a deal’.  With the US election outcome killing the Anglosphere idea and the chaos from WTO on top of COVID, although there will be further twists and turns it looks more likely some kind of deal will happen with more detail over time. If that does happen - big if - the fanatics eg Farage won’t be happy. Cummings and Cain may have known what was coming on that dent although looked totally stage managed. 

[Wes Tender]

52 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Perhaps people don't share your almost gloating desire for WTO, seeing it as bad for the UK's economic future, and therefore digging our heels in over a comparitively insignificant issue is picking the wrong fight.

When you take it upon yourself to talk in generalised terms of "people" and their hopes and desires for a particular outcome to these talks, you have to accept that there is probably a majority of the electorate currently who do not wish for us to cave in to EU demands (particularly from the French) that they have undiminished access to our coastal waters. Neither do those "people" want us to continue to be subservient to EU rules on how we should govern ourselves, or subject to the jurisdiction of their law courts.

Put me among that majority. Apart from that, I have expressed my views often, that I would prefer a FTA based on the Canada one, but obviously with the none of our three red lines negotiated away in any  form. If that is too much to ask of our so-called friends in the EU, then I'm perfectly happy with WTO.

[Wes Tender]

6 minutes ago, saint1977 said:

Probably best he doesn’t read the DT saying today that the French have shifted on this issue and according to Coveney there is a ‘landing space for a deal’.  With the US election outcome killing the Anglosphere idea and the chaos from WTO on top of COVID, although there will be further twists and turns it looks more likely some kind of deal will happen with more detail over time. If that does happen - big if - the fanatics eg Farage won’t be happy. Cummings and Cain may have known what was coming on that dent although looked totally stage managed. 

There is a lot of speculative guff printed in the media at the moment, pontificating on how we will have to cave in to the EU demands because of Biden/Cummings/the Chinese virus etc. I suggest that you wait and see what transpires. Be patient; you won't have to wait long.

[ecuk268]

George Eustice was asked on Sunday what would happen to UK lamb exports (92% go to the EU) in the event of a no-deal when a 35% tariff would be imposed. Easy, he said, they just put the prices up. When asked what would happen if they decided to buy their lamb elsewhere he said the farmers could switch to raising cattle.

He should try raising cattle on a Welsh hill farm, the farmers would be wiped out. Are there any competent ministers in this Government? 

[Tamesaint]

5 minutes ago, ecuk268 said:

George Eustice was asked on Sunday what would happen to UK lamb exports (92% go to the EU) in the event of a no-deal when a 35% tariff would be imposed. Easy, he said, they just put the prices up. When asked what would happen if they decided to buy their lamb elsewhere he said the farmers could switch to raising cattle.

He should try raising cattle on a Welsh hill farm, the farmers would be wiped out. Are there any competent ministers in this Government? 

That is why he is known as "Useless Eustace."

You mustn't expect competence from this Government. Cabinet ministers were chosen on the basis of their devotion to the Brexit project and their belief in St Boris. There is talk of a reshuffle following the Cummings / Cain fiasco but don't hold your breath. 

[ecuk268]

3 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

That is why he is known as "Useless Eustace."

You mustn't expect competence from this Government. Cabinet ministers were chosen on the basis of their devotion to the Brexit project and their belief in St Boris. There is talk of a reshuffle following the Cummings / Cain fiasco but don't hold your breath. 

Interesting look on the weekend shenanigans:

https://members.tortoisemedia.com/2020/11/17/halloween-2020-day-2-lockdown-meltdown/content.html?ncid=newsltukhpmgpols

 

[Tamesaint]

23 minutes ago, ecuk268 said:

Interesting look on the weekend shenanigans:

https://members.tortoisemedia.com/2020/11/17/halloween-2020-day-2-lockdown-meltdown/content.html?ncid=newsltukhpmgpols

 

Very interesting.

[buctootim]

2 hours ago, saint1977 said:

Probably best he doesn’t read the DT saying today that the French have shifted on this issue and according to Coveney there is a ‘landing space for a deal’.  With the US election outcome killing the Anglosphere idea and the chaos from WTO on top of COVID, although there will be further twists and turns it looks more likely some kind of deal will happen with more detail over time. If that does happen - big if - the fanatics eg Farage won’t be happy. Cummings and Cain may have known what was coming on that dent although looked totally stage managed. 

F'sure. I suspect the deal has been known for some time but its been in both sides interest to appear big and tough. The EU's fishery demands have been deliberately overstated so that when the deal comes it will look like the EU have caved giving a victory for Sir Boris the Brave on the sideshow whilst caving on the real meat of the deal, level playing field  . 

[Wes Tender]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

F'sure. I suspect the deal has been known for some time but its been in both sides interest to appear big and tough. The EU's fishery demands have been deliberately overstated so that when the deal comes it will look like the EU have caved giving a victory for Sir Boris the Brave on the sideshow whilst caving on the real meat of the deal, level playing field  . 

I give you the same advice that I gave saint1977; be patient, wait and see, it won't be long now.

As we all know, you aren't exactly much cop at making Brexit predictions.

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

F'sure. I suspect the deal has been known for some time but its been in both sides interest to appear big and tough. The EU's fishery demands have been deliberately overstated so that when the deal comes it will look like the EU have caved giving a victory for Sir Boris the Brave on the sideshow whilst caving on the real meat of the deal, level playing field  . 

I agree with you. 

[badgerx16]

4 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

When you take it upon yourself to talk in generalised terms of "people" and their hopes and desires for a particular outcome to these talks, you have to accept that there is probably a majority of the electorate currently who do not wish for us to cave in to EU demands (particularly from the French) that they have undiminished access to our coastal waters. Neither do those "people" want us to continue to be subservient to EU rules on how we should govern ourselves, or subject to the jurisdiction of their law courts.

Put me among that majority. Apart from that, I have expressed my views often, that I would prefer a FTA based on the Canada one, but obviously with the none of our three red lines negotiated away in any  form. If that is too much to ask of our so-called friends in the EU, then I'm perfectly happy with WTO.

There wasn't a majority of the Electorate in favour of Brexit; 52% of the 72% turnout equals 37% of the electorate. And there is absolutely zero evidence that a 'majority of the electorate' are in favour of Brexit now, let alone taking your slant on things.

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

There wasn't a majority of the Electorate in favour of Brexit; 52% of the 72% turnout equals 37% of the electorate. And there is absolutely zero evidence that a 'majority of the electorate' are in favour of Brexit now, let alone taking your slant on things.

Oh god, here we go again. Give it a rest, you lost. All this pony about turnout is pathetic. The majority of voters, that’s all that’s ever mattered till you remoaners came along.  

Edited 18 November, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[badgerx16]

52 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Oh god, here we go again. Give it a rest, you lost. All this pony about turnout is pathetic. The majority of voters, that’s all that’s ever mattered till you remoaners came along.  

Who asked you ? Wes mentioned 'a majority of the electorate', and I responded. I didn't lose, I wasn't in the contest. Do you think a no-deal Brexit is 'winning' ?

Edited 18 November, 2020 by badgerx16