Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Tamesaint]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

 

Perhaps you're just being deliberately belligerent rather than the alternative that you really are thick as pig shit

Oh the irony!!

[Weston Super Saint]

It must be our lovely weather

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-53678928

Quote

A total of 235 migrants were intercepted crossing the English Channel on Thursday, the Home Office confirmed - a record for a single day.

 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

It must be our lovely weather

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-53678928

 

So after leaving the EU migrants coming over from France in boats has massively increased.

Taking back control.

[hypochondriac]

35 minutes ago, aintforever said:

So after leaving the EU migrants coming over from France in boats has massively increased.

Taking back control.

Surely the point was to have the ability to take control? That doesn't necessarily mean that the government of the day will utilise that control in the correct way. 

[aintforever]

23 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Surely the point was to have the ability to take control? That doesn't necessarily mean that the government of the day will utilise that control in the correct way. 

Does being in or out of the EU effect how many boats we can stop crossing the channel?

[badgerx16]

14 minutes ago, aintforever said:

Does being in or out of the EU effect how many boats we can stop crossing the channel?

The international law remains the same, refugees are supposed to stop at the first "safe" country they reach. Therefore Greece, Italy, France, etc. It is possible that the UK could shirk some of it's previous collective humanitarian responsibilty because it isn't bound to EU joint commitents to provide suport to the southern border states.

Edited 7 August, 2020 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

Does being in or out of the EU effect how many boats we can stop crossing the channel?

I thought you were suggesting it did with your comment about taking back control? In or out of the EU, we shouldn't be having migrants coming across the channel illegally. There should be a mechanism for immediately returning them and I'm hoping they are sorting something behind the scenes. 

[Wes Tender]

Priti Patel is furious at the situation and has ordered officials to draw up plans for the Royal Navy to patrol the Channel and have the ability to turn back boats. The tide of illegal economic migrants isn't going to be stemmed when those who get halfway across the Channel tell their compatriots that they are welcomed by the Border Forces and transported by coach around the country to be accommodated in smart hotels. If International law dictates that genuine refugees have to declare that they are seeking refuge in the first safe country they arrive in, then why do they then subsequently cross several other safe countries to come to the UK? No, the majority of these so-called refugees are economic migrants. They have been primed by the immigrant smugglers to throw away their identity papers and to tell cock and bull stories about how their lives were imperiled in their own selected war-zone country.

We can learn a lot from Australia and the methods it employed to halt their illegal immigration. Isolate any who make it over here in remote secure camps, or onboard specially re-purposed obsolete ships moored well offshore while their true status, origin  and identity is determined. Word will soon spread that the UK is not the soft touch that it had been.

[aintforever]

45 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I thought you were suggesting it did with your comment about taking back control? In or out of the EU, we shouldn't be having migrants coming across the channel illegally. There should be a mechanism for immediately returning them and I'm hoping they are sorting something behind the scenes. 

I just thought it was ironic considering the all the hype over illegal immigration from the Brexit lot prior to the vote.

It would be interesting to see the reasons why it has gone up so much since we have left. Obviously might be nothing to do with wether we are in the EU or not but maybe it's now more in the interests of France to have them come over so they are no longer an EU problem?

[Wes Tender]

1 hour ago, aintforever said:

I just thought it was ironic considering the all the hype over illegal immigration from the Brexit lot prior to the vote.

It would be interesting to see the reasons why it has gone up so much since we have left. Obviously might be nothing to do with wether we are in the EU or not but maybe it's now more in the interests of France to have them come over so they are no longer an EU problem?

The hype before Brexit wasn't all concerned about illegal immigration; it was largely concerned with uncontrolled immigration from the EU as part of the free movement of peoples, one of the mainstays of the EU's Single Market policy.

Regarding whether it is in France's interest to make it easy for them to come over here, then of course it is. Then France doesn't have the responsibility to accommodate and feed them whilst their status is determined. Whether they are genuine refugees, or economic migrants, we have the right to return them to France and should pursue a policy of doing so right away. Using the Royal Navy to prevent them entering our coastal waters should be seen as good training for when they will have to keep the fishermen of other countries out too.

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, aintforever said:

I just thought it was ironic considering the all the hype over illegal immigration from the Brexit lot prior to the vote.

 

The issue was legal immigration. What on earth has illegal immigration got to do with the  EU? 

Edited 7 August, 2020 by Lord Duckhunter

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

The issue was legal immigration. What on earth has illegal immigration got to do with the  EU? 

Ask Farage - his poster had the big queue of asian/middle eastern looking asylum seekers on it.

[trousers]

1 minute ago, aintforever said:

Ask Farage - his poster had the big queue of asian/middle eastern looking asylum seekers on it.

How do we know they weren't "asian/middle eastern looking" people from the EU....?

[Weston Super Saint]

4 hours ago, aintforever said:

I just thought it was ironic considering the all the hype over illegal immigration from the Brexit lot prior to the vote.

It would be interesting to see the reasons why it has gone up so much since we have left. 

The obvious answer is that they don't want to be in the EU either

[Wes Tender]

I have just heard that the Navy have appointed somebody to head up the operations to stop these illegal immigrants in the Channel. Great news

[badgerx16]

55 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

I have just heard that the Navy have appointed somebody to head up the operations to stop these illegal immigrants in the Channel. Great news

But a Ministry of Defence source told the PA news agency the idea of using the navy was “completely potty” and could put lives at risk.
“It is a completely inappropriate and disproportionate approach to take,” they said.

“We don’t resort to deploying armed force to deal with political failings."

“It’s beyond absurd to think that we should be deploying multimillion-pound ships and elite soldiers to deal with desperate people barely staying afloat on rubber dinghies in the Channel."

“It could potentially put people’s lives at even greater risk."

“Border Force is effectively the Home Office’s own navy fleet, so it begs the question: what are they doing?”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-migrants-channel-royal-navy-record-a9659346.html

 

[The Kraken]

Quite right too. The notion of a massively stretched and under-funded naval force being enabled to try and prevent a minority of desperate souls trying to reach these shores is utterly absurd. Anyone who thinks the MoD has got reasonable bandwidth to pursue this and do it effectively needs to give their head a wobble.

Edited 7 August, 2020 by The Kraken

[Wes Tender]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

But a Ministry of Defence source told the PA news agency the idea of using the navy was “completely potty” and could put lives at risk.
“It is a completely inappropriate and disproportionate approach to take,” they said.

“We don’t resort to deploying armed force to deal with political failings."

“It’s beyond absurd to think that we should be deploying multimillion-pound ships and elite soldiers to deal with desperate people barely staying afloat on rubber dinghies in the Channel."

“It could potentially put people’s lives at even greater risk."

“Border Force is effectively the Home Office’s own navy fleet, so it begs the question: what are they doing?”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-migrants-channel-royal-navy-record-a9659346.html

 

A Ministry of Defence Source? You mean some Civil Servant sat behind a desk in Whitehall?

Of course, it could be that some of that tiny minority of what you describe as "desperate souls" are in fact terrorists.

[The Kraken]

Wow 🤣

Lets get those dinghies and RIBs sunk, just in case.

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Wes Tender said:

A Ministry of Defence Source? You mean some Civil Servant sat behind a desk in Whitehall?

I've got no idea, perhaps you should contact PA and ask them.

Where did you hear your snippet ? There's nothing in any news outlet I can find that says anything other than Priti Patel has decided that it's a good idea, ( which almost certainly means it isn't ).

1 hour ago, Wes Tender said:

..... what you describe as "desperate souls" are in fact terrorists.

Not my description, the MoD source.

Do you mean in the same way that what some describe as Brexiteers are in fact xenophobic ?

Edited 7 August, 2020 by badgerx16

[Fan The Flames]

People living in shit holes with no future leaving to better their lives, who would have thought it. Mann has been an economic migrant since he was upright.

[Fan The Flames]

5 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

I have just heard that the Navy have appointed somebody to head up the operations to stop these illegal immigrants in the Channel. Great news

I hope it's Katie Hopkins, she can't catch a l break at the moment. 

[The Kraken]

4 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

People living in shit holes with no future leaving to better their lives, who would have thought it. Mann has been an economic migrant since he was upright.

I’m always fairly bemused at how British (English) people think that they have a natural right to this island. We have mostly always been an immigrant race. I’m not even sure what you would call indigenous English. But yeah, foreigners = bad. 

[Weston Super Saint]

11 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

But a Ministry of Defence source told the PA news agency 

“We don’t resort to deploying armed force to deal with political failings."

Surely that is EXACTLY what we've done when we've sent our armed forces to every warzone, ever?

[Fan The Flames]

31 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Surely that is EXACTLY what we've done when we've sent our armed forces to every warzone, ever?

I think you've answered your own question.

[badgerx16]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Surely that is EXACTLY what we've done when we've sent our armed forces to every warzone, ever?

You are not claiming that the Channel is a war zone, are you ?

Mind you, some might claim that the refugee/ migrant problem is a direct result of our political failings.

[Batman]

what can the Navy do that the border force can't? Apart from add more numbers?

what other commitment is dropped for a RN ship to be sat in the Channel?

 

[Matthew Le God]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Surely that is EXACTLY what we've done when we've sent our armed forces to every warzone, ever?

 

6 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

You are not claiming that the Channel is a war zone, are you ?

Spanish Armada of 1588!

 

[Wes Tender]

Many of the arguments debated here.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

You are not claiming that the Channel is a war zone, are you ?

 

No.

However, I am claiming that the warzones we have sent the armed forces to are a result of political failings.

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, Batman said:

what can the Navy do that the border force can't?

 

Attack France?

[hypochondriac]

12 hours ago, Fan The Flames said:

People living in shit holes with no future leaving to better their lives, who would have thought it. Mann has been an economic migrant since he was upright.

You mean leaving a western developed nation like France to come here? 

[hypochondriac]

12 hours ago, The Kraken said:

I’m always fairly bemused at how British (English) people think that they have a natural right to this island. We have mostly always been an immigrant race. I’m not even sure what you would call indigenous English. But yeah, foreigners = bad. 

Surely there's a massive distinction between immigrants who we allow in who have applied through the proper channels and anyone who fancies travelling from France arriving in a dinghy? 

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

You mean leaving a western developed nation like France to come here? 

There are not French people in those dinghies are they. If they were they could economically migrate here easily. They are from the other side of the med. But you know that, so I don't really know what point you are trying to make.

[Matthew Le God]

14 hours ago, The Kraken said:

I’m always fairly bemused at how British (English) people think that they have a natural right to this island. We have mostly always been an immigrant race. I’m not even sure what you would call indigenous English. But yeah, foreigners = bad. 

 

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Surely there's a massive distinction between immigrants who we allow in who have applied through the proper channels and anyone who fancies travelling from France arriving in a dinghy? 

I don't think the...

- Neolithic people

- Beaker people

- Romans

- Anglo Saxons

- Vikings

- Normans

- Huguenots

etc etc

...applied through the 'proper channels' to live on the British Isles', most of them arrived on a boat from France and amalgamated into the general population! 😉

 

Edited 8 August, 2020 by Matthew Le God

[Wes Tender]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Surely there's a massive distinction between immigrants who we allow in who have applied through the proper channels and anyone who fancies travelling from France arriving in a dinghy? 

Of course there is a massive difference. Some on here would happily adopt the Angela Merkel policy of allowing anybody to come here who wants to. Perhaps they might like to help ease the situation by taking a few of them into their own households, so that the rest of us are spared some of the expense in housing them in hotels, feeding them, giving them spending money, allowing them access to free healthcare, education, etc.

[Wes Tender]

17 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

I don't think the...

- Neolithic people

- Beaker people

- Romans

- Anglo Saxons

- Vikings

- Normans

- Huguenots

etc etc

...applied through the 'proper channels' to live on the British Isles', most of them arrived on a boat from France and amalgamated into the general population! 😉

 

A spectacular failure from you, putting up a very dated 2013 "comedy" routine about immigration from the EU allowed under their freedom of movement of peoples policy, in response to the posts about illegal economic migration form all over the place. It seems that you don't know the difference between the two.

Edited 8 August, 2020 by Wes Tender

[hypochondriac]

45 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

There are not French people in those dinghies are they. If they were they could economically migrate here easily. They are from the other side of the med. But you know that, so I don't really know what point you are trying to make.

Where did I say they were French? They are in France though which is the point I was making. 

[badgerx16]

5 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

Spanish Armada of 1588!

 

Dunkirk 1940

Dieppe 1942

Normandy 1944

 

[Fan The Flames]

12 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Where did I say they were French? They are in France though which is the point I was making. 

But they are not coming from France, they are passing through France, so your point is pointless. These aren't people just happy to be claiming asylum in the first safe place, these are people moving for economic reasons to better their lives. France doesn't want them, Britain doesn't want them, no where wants them so they might as well try to get to a place where they want to go. They have nothing to lose, they come from war torn destroyed places, economically backward places or religiously retarded places; it's stick or twist in your one life on this planet (regardless of what the religious nutters say). I know what most europeans would do and have done over the last 500 years, my grandparents came from Ireland in the 40's and in the 70's we went to New Zealand, the whole world is populated by europeans seeking a better life, they have taken over north and south america and oceania. 

So people trying to sanctimoniously point out that they are not refugees but economic migrants is pointless, it doesn't seek to understand and or help solve the problem. I don't know what the answer is but the world has got itself into a right mess and it needs an almighty effort to turn things around (in all reality we probably can't).

[Fan The Flames]

37 minutes ago, Wes Tender said:

A spectacular failure from you, putting up a very dated 2013 "comedy" routine about immigration from the EU allowed under their freedom of movement of peoples policy, in response to the posts about illegal economic migration form all over the place. It seems that you don't know the difference between the two.

Not really, he was replying to the point about EU migration, the clue was the bit he put in bold. Another mess from Weston Ender.

Is there a distinction, no one likes either the legal or the illegal immigrants. 

[hypochondriac]

25 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

But they are not coming from France, they are passing through France, so your point is pointless. These aren't people just happy to be claiming asylum in the first safe place, these are people moving for economic reasons to better their lives. France doesn't want them, Britain doesn't want them, no where wants them so they might as well try to get to a place where they want to go. They have nothing to lose, they come from war torn destroyed places, economically backward places or religiously retarded places; it's stick or twist in your one life on this planet (regardless of what the religious nutters say). I know what most europeans would do and have done over the last 500 years, my grandparents came from Ireland in the 40's and in the 70's we went to New Zealand, the whole world is populated by europeans seeking a better life, they have taken over north and south america and oceania. 

So people trying to sanctimoniously point out that they are not refugees but economic migrants is pointless, it doesn't seek to understand and or help solve the problem. I don't know what the answer is but the world has got itself into a right mess and it needs an almighty effort to turn things around (in all reality we probably can't).

They aren't supposed to be "passing through France." That's the whole point. They may view it as passing through but that's not factually accurate. There's no reason for them to leave France and circumvent the immigration system. Its an insult to all those who go through the proper channels. I don't blame them for attempting to come here but I do blame the government for being perceived to be a soft touch and for allowing it to happen. 

Edited 8 August, 2020 by hypochondriac

[Wes Tender]

13 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Not really, he was replying to the point about EU migration, the clue was the bit he put in bold. Another mess from Weston Ender.

Is there a distinction, no one likes either the legal or the illegal immigrants. 

The bit in capitals was the comment by Hypochondriac referring to the immigrants into the UK from the EU via their freedom of movement policy, i.e. legal immigration.  So as I said, MLG failed spectacularly by producing some unfunny comedian's video from before we had even voted to leave the EU, to answer posts about illegal immigration by boats across the Channel from France, via wherever

As for your last sentence, yes, there is a large distinction, although I am not surprised you cannot seem to grasp it. Personally I have nothing against economic migrants who we invite here because they have skills and qualifications that we need, or in taking our fair share of proper refugees on humanitarian grounds. Most of those coming here from Eastern Europe via the EU policy, or in boats across the Channel from France do not fill that criteria.

And who is this Weston Ender you refer to? Reading comprehension lacking today? Weston lives in Weston Super Mare, I live in west End. Is that clear now?

 

 

[aintforever]

59 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

They aren't supposed to be "passing through France." That's the whole point. They may view it as passing through but that's not factually accurate. There's no reason for them to leave France and circumvent the immigration system. Its an insult to all those who go through the proper channels. I don't blame them for attempting to come here but I do blame the government for being perceived to be a soft touch and for allowing it to happen. 

I think for many of them it’s a language thing, English tends to be a more common second language than French so they probably feel safer and more optimistic about starting a new life where they can communicate.

We obviously need to stop people trying to cross the channel in rubber dinghies but I don’t have a big issue with these guys being here. Asylum seekers or economic migrants, whatever you want to call them they have to be pretty desperate to risk their lives crossing in one of those things. If they have managed to get here from Iraq they are showing more get up and go than the average waster in the UK, good luck to them.

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, Wes Tender said:

The bit in capitals was the comment by Hypochondriac referring to the immigrants into the UK from the EU via their freedom of movement policy, i.e. legal immigration.  So as I said, MLG failed spectacularly by producing some unfunny comedian's video from before we had even voted to leave the EU, to answer posts about illegal immigration by boats across the Channel from France, via wherever

As for your last sentence, yes, there is a large distinction, although I am not surprised you cannot seem to grasp it. Personally I have nothing against economic migrants who we invite here because they have skills and qualifications that we need, or in taking our fair share of proper refugees on humanitarian grounds. Most of those coming here from Eastern Europe via the EU policy, or in boats across the Channel from France do not fill that criteria.

And who is this Weston Ender you refer to? Reading comprehension lacking today? Weston lives in Weston Super Mare, I live in west End. Is that clear now?

 

 

A really high percentage of your post's comment on people's comprehension, are you 13?

Your first paragraph is nonsense, naturally. Your second paragraph illustrates my point entirely, despite EU migrants being legally entitled to come here, you don't want them and class them the same as illegal immigrants. Classic.

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

They aren't supposed to be "passing through France." That's the whole point. They may view it as passing through but that's not factually accurate. There's no reason for them to leave France and circumvent the immigration system. Its an insult to all those who go through the proper channels. I don't blame them for attempting to come here but I do blame the government for being perceived to be a soft touch and for allowing it to happen. 

If course it's factual that they are passing through, because that's their intention and that's what they are doing. Yes it's illegal and outside the immigration system, but it's a system that they think they can't be a part of,  so they don't care for the rules. The truth is we are in a moment where there is so much turmoil all this is natural. How can the government stop it happening, I woukd like to know, previously the government had some measure of sucess in collaborating with France but now we are coming out of the EU that good will is thin on the ground.

Brexit might give us more control on legal migration from the EU but it's seemly eroding our control on illegal migration.

[shurlock]

 

 

20 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

If course it's factual that they are passing through, because that's their intention and that's what they are doing. Yes it's illegal and outside the immigration system, but it's a system that they think they can't be a part of,  so they don't care for the rules. The truth is we are in a moment where there is so much turmoil all this is natural. How can the government stop it happening, I woukd like to know, previously the government had some measure of sucess in collaborating with France but now we are coming out of the EU that good will is thin on the ground.

Brexit might give us more control on legal migration from the EU but it's seemly eroding our control on illegal migration.

Of course it doesn't mean they aren't genuine refugees and can't ultimately be granted legal status as such.

http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2020/08/updated-qs-and-as-on-legal-issues-of.html

 

Edited 8 August, 2020 by shurlock

[Weston Super Saint]

21 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

But a Ministry of Defence source told the PA news agency the idea of using the navy was “completely potty” and could put lives at risk.
“It is a completely inappropriate and disproportionate approach to take,” they said.

“We don’t resort to deploying armed force to deal with political failings."

“It’s beyond absurd to think that we should be deploying multimillion-pound ships and elite soldiers to deal with desperate people barely staying afloat on rubber dinghies in the Channel."

“It could potentially put people’s lives at even greater risk."

“Border Force is effectively the Home Office’s own navy fleet, so it begs the question: what are they doing?”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-migrants-channel-royal-navy-record-a9659346.html

 

I appreciate it's a reasonably large organisation, but you'd think they'd have just the one 'hymn sheet' at the MoD!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53704809

Quote

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) said it was "working hard" to identify how best to assist, after receiving a request under the military aid to the civilian authorities (MACA) protocol.

Perhaps the original 'source' wasn't aware of the MACA protocol?

[Matthew Le God]

2 hours ago, Wes Tender said:

MLG failed spectacularly by producing some unfunny comedian's video from before we had even voted to leave the EU, to answer posts about illegal immigration by boats across the Channel from France, via wherever

My post was tongue in cheek and was responding both to The Kraken saying "We have mostly always been an immigrant race" and hypochondriac saying "applied through the proper channels". 

All I did is list some of the many groups of people who have been amalgamated into the general population over the last few thousand years and point out they did apply to move.

You have imagine I was answering something I wasn't answering and completely failed to comprehend it. Whether the video is from 2013 or 2020 or if you find Stewart Lee funny or not is irrelevant to what I was saying.

Edited 8 August, 2020 by Matthew Le God

[hypochondriac]

56 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

If course it's factual that they are passing through, because that's their intention and that's what they are doing. Yes it's illegal and outside the immigration system, but it's a system that they think they can't be a part of,  so they don't care for the rules. The truth is we are in a moment where there is so much turmoil all this is natural. How can the government stop it happening, I woukd like to know, previously the government had some measure of sucess in collaborating with France but now we are coming out of the EU that good will is thin on the ground.

Brexit might give us more control on legal migration from the EU but it's seemly eroding our control on illegal migration.

How about doing an Australia and guaranteeing that anyone coming here illegally will be removed as soon as it is feasible? That would certainly bring the numbers down and we wouldn't need the cooperation of France.