Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Batman]

Why do you still try to position yourself as politically neutral when your own posts discredit that?

 

Shroppies post was accurate. Johnson’s rush to get out of the EU come what may will leave us desperate and dependent on the US providing some kind of trade fig leaf. Their will be a price to pay for it, most likely including some access to the NHS. Deriding him as dogma driven momentum puts you in an unflattering light

 

I’m sure you said we wouldn’t be leaving?

[hypochondriac]

Why do you still try to position yourself as politically neutral when your own posts discredit that?

 

Shroppies post was accurate. Johnson’s rush to get out of the EU come what may will leave us desperate and dependent on the US providing some kind of trade fig leaf. Their will be a price to pay for it, most likely including some access to the NHS. Deriding him as dogma driven momentum puts you in an unflattering light

I said he sounds like a Momentum extremist because that's exactly what he sounds like. Pushing a conspiracy theory that journalists all say things you don't like because they are all part of some Tory loving cabal is insane.

 

I'm not neutral - I want the conservatives to win a majority- but I'm certainly not a big supporter of any of the main parties. I've said many times I would like Labour to return to electability.

[Shroppie]

I said he sounds like a Momentum extremist because that's exactly what he sounds like. Pushing a conspiracy theory that journalists all say things you don't like because they are all part of some Tory loving cabal is insane.

 

I'm not neutral - I want the conservatives to win a majority- but I'm certainly not a big supporter of any of the main parties. I've said many times I would like Labour to return to electability.

If you haven't realised how biased 90% of the media is towards the Tories there's no hope for you.

 

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[Shroppie]

No it wasn't.

It most certainly was. But it was based on facts rather than soundbites and propaganda, so some on here would have problems with that. [emoji23][emoji23]

 

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[Shroppie]

So you're an anti-democracy Lib Dumb then. They see no point in a third referendum on our EU membership, because they wouldn't honour it anyway, so what was the point in having it if they wouldn't abide by the decision, they reason. So they go straight to overturning the decision before it has even been enacted, and have the brass neck to have "Democrats" in their party title. Now finally realising that it isn't the vote winner they anticipated, they are back-tracking to the laughably so called "people's vote", but because of their previous stance, nobody can believe a word they say. As it has always been, it is easy to promise the earth if they have zero chance of being elected as the government. The stand-out comedy moment of the election so far has been the girl Swinson claiming that she would be the next Prime Minister. [emoji38]

 

Oh dear. There's so much wrong with that but since any reply will no doubt be met with more playground name-calling that my six-year-old grandson would find immature, I'll just abandon you to your prejudices.

 

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[Shroppie]

Why do you still try to position yourself as politically neutral when your own posts discredit that?

 

Shroppies post was accurate. Johnson’s rush to get out of the EU come what may will leave us desperate and dependent on the US providing some kind of trade fig leaf. Their will be a price to pay for it, most likely including some access to the NHS. Deriding him as dogma driven momentum puts you in an unflattering light

Thank you for your support. I should have known better than to come on here looking for intelligent debate. [emoji23] I'm going away again.

 

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[shurlock]

If the NHS and drug prices aren't part of negotiations, then it will just mean reduced access for UK businesses to the US market, making it even less likely that any deal will compensate for the fall in UK-EU trade. The more UK takes off the table, the less attractive it is as a trade partner. Simple stuff really.

Edited 28 November, 2019 by shurlock

[hypochondriac]

If you haven't realised how biased 90% of the media is towards the Tories there's no hope for you.

 

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"intelligent debate."

[Wes Tender]

If you haven't realised how biased 90% of the media is towards the Tories there's no hope for you.

 

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Yeah, isn't it disgusting how biased the BBC, the Guardian, Sky, The Mirror, The Not Independent and others are towards the Tories?

 

You sound like a Momentum extremist.

[Wes Tender]

Oh dear. There's so much wrong with that but since any reply will no doubt be met with more playground name-calling that my six-year-old grandson would find immature, I'll just abandon you to your prejudices.

 

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Are you grown up enough to argue against my opinion, explaining why you consider it democratic to ignore a referendum decision even before it has been implemented? Have the Lib Dumbs not in the past couple of days decided that promising to revoke Article 50 is a vote loser? Do you believe that Swinson stands any chance of becoming PM?

 

Come on, give it your best shot, Grandad.

[Tamesaint]

Yeah, isn't it disgusting how biased the BBC, the Guardian, Sky, The Mirror, The Not Independent and others are towards the Tories?

 

You sound like a Momentum extremist.

 

I always find it amusing when people on the right wing accuse the BBC of left wing bias. They cite Guardian reading journalists and other supposed bias. People on the left accuse it of right wing bias citing examples of removal of the laughter at Johnson at the leaders's debate and doctoring of the video of Johnson at the Cenotaph.

 

I tend to think that if both the right wing and the left wing consider the BBC to be biased towards their opponents, then the BBC are probably doing things right and are not biased.

[shurlock]

I always find it amusing when people on the right wing accuse the BBC of left wing bias. They cite Guardian reading journalists and other supposed bias. People on the left accuse it of right wing bias citing examples of removal of the laughter at Johnson at the leaders's debate and doctoring of the video of Johnson at the Cenotaph.

 

I tend to think that if both the right wing and the left wing consider the BBC to be biased towards their opponents, then the BBC are probably doing things right and are not biased.

 

 

Les is out of control.

[The Kraken]

Are you grown up enough.........

 

Lib Dumbs

 

ffs Les

[mickn]

Are you grown up enough to argue against my opinion, explaining why you consider it democratic to ignore a referendum decision even before it has been implemented? Have the Lib Dumbs not in the past couple of days decided that promising to revoke Article 50 is a vote loser? Do you believe that Swinson stands any chance of becoming PM?

 

Come on, give it your best shot, Grandad.

 

I've never quite understood why some people use the word 'grandad' as some sort of insult or slur, I'm a grandad and proud of it

[Shroppie]

Are you grown up enough to argue against my opinion, explaining why you consider it democratic to ignore a referendum decision even before it has been implemented? Have the Lib Dumbs not in the past couple of days decided that promising to revoke Article 50 is a vote loser? Do you believe that Swinson stands any chance of becoming PM?

 

Come on, give it your best shot, Grandad.

Ok. It's democratic for a democratically elected government, if it has clearly stated a policy in its manifesto, to take that as a mandate to implement that policy. If Johnson gets a majority he'll implement the referendum result but with a deal or no deal that bears no resemblance to what was promised in the referendum.

 

As situations evolve and facts, rather than meaningless but powerful soundbites, take over it's a responsible thing to do to reconsider. Why should the snapshot in 2016 be regarded as set in stone? Having had a GE do we say that's it - no more votes? (Don't answer that. I'm sure this bunch of Tories would happily install themselves in power permanently if they could)

 

To make my point:

 

Captain of the Titanic: we've decided on our course and we must get it done. We're taking control.

 

Passengers: But when you plotted your course you didn't know there was a bloody great iceberg in the way! Can we think again?

 

Captain: No! We decided. We must get this done. Then we can move on.

 

No, a majority LibDem government won't be elected and Jo Swinson won't be PM. But the ultimate aim of all parties, no matter how unlikely, is to get a majority. The problem is the Tories put winning above any responsibility to the country or obligation to tell the truth. Say whatever will get you elected. Watch the promises evaporate the moment they get in. And no, the LibDems (please note the correct name: you're obviously still having problems here) haven't dropped the policy. They have restated a realistic position that a second best option would be to back a second referendum.

 

I don't vote as if I'm putting a bet on - trying to back the winner. I vote, after thought and analysis, for the party that meets my principles most closely. My vote will not elect an MP, because of our voting system. But that's another argument.

 

As I said before, I'm depressed at the state of politics in this country. A Leader of the Opposition who is ineffective. A Prime Minister who is such a liar and a liability that his party are doing everything they can to hide him away and avoid him showing his inadequacy with his bumbling idiotic answers. Do we really want a "leader" who is so incompetent and untrustworthy just so we can "get Brexit done" (which he won't anyway)?

 

Yet it's enormously sad that the level of scrutiny and thought by so many means that Johnson's "charisma" and lies are enough for so many. If he gets his majority, they're in for a hell of a shock.

 

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[Wes Tender]

I've never quite understood why some people use the word 'grandad' as some sort of insult or slur, I'm a grandad and proud of it

 

Me too. I used it mockingly to Shroppie, as he had used his grandad status to insult me.

[Wes Tender]

I always find it amusing when people on the right wing accuse the BBC of left wing bias. They cite Guardian reading journalists and other supposed bias. People on the left accuse it of right wing bias citing examples of removal of the laughter at Johnson at the leaders's debate and doctoring of the video of Johnson at the Cenotaph.

 

I tend to think that if both the right wing and the left wing consider the BBC to be biased towards their opponents, then the BBC are probably doing things right and are not biased.

 

So if I understand you correctly, you argue that the media bias is fairly balanced, not 90% in favour of the Tories as Shroppie claims. Perhaps his grandson told him that.

[shurlock]

So if I understand you correctly, you argue that the media bias is fairly balanced, not 90% in favour of the Tories as Shroppie claims. Perhaps his grandson told him that.

 

He was talking specifically about supposed BBC bias, not media bias as a whole (and certainly not the print media). Try reading properly Les.

[Wes Tender]

Ok. It's democratic for a democratically elected government, if it has clearly stated a policy in its manifesto, to take that as a mandate to implement that policy. If Johnson gets a majority he'll implement the referendum result but with a deal or no deal that bears no resemblance to what was promised in the referendum.

 

As situations evolve and facts, rather than meaningless but powerful soundbites, take over it's a responsible thing to do to reconsider. Why should the snapshot in 2016 be regarded as set in stone? Having had a GE do we say that's it - no more votes? (Don't answer that. I'm sure this bunch of Tories would happily install themselves in power permanently if they could)

 

To make my point:

 

Captain of the Titanic: we've decided on our course and we must get it done. We're taking control.

 

Passengers: But when you plotted your course you didn't know there was a bloody great iceberg in the way! Can we think again?

 

Captain: No! We decided. We must get this done. Then we can move on.

 

No, a majority LibDem government won't be elected and Jo Swinson won't be PM. But the ultimate aim of all parties, no matter how unlikely, is to get a majority. The problem is the Tories put winning above any responsibility to the country or obligation to tell the truth. Say whatever will get you elected. Watch the promises evaporate the moment they get in. And no, the LibDems (please note the correct name: you're obviously still having problems here) haven't dropped the policy. They have restated a realistic position that a second best option would be to back a second referendum.

 

I don't vote as if I'm putting a bet on - trying to back the winner. I vote, after thought and analysis, for the party that meets my principles most closely. My vote will not elect an MP, because of our voting system. But that's another argument.

 

As I said before, I'm depressed at the state of politics in this country. A Leader of the Opposition who is ineffective. A Prime Minister who is such a liar and a liability that his party are doing everything they can to hide him away and avoid him showing his inadequacy with his bumbling idiotic answers. Do we really want a "leader" who is so incompetent and untrustworthy just so we can "get Brexit done" (which he won't anyway)?

 

Yet it's enormously sad that the level of scrutiny and thought by so many means that Johnson's "charisma" and lies are enough for so many. If he gets his majority, they're in for a hell of a shock.

 

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The referendum was a binary choice, Leave or Remain in the EU. Anybody who chooses to adopt a position not to implement that decision is not a democrat. You are not a democrat, so don't come this pathetic "well, things have changed, the thick electorate didn't know what they wanted, the whole thing was rigged" attitude. You know damned well that had Remain won by even a single vote, that would have been the end of the argument.

 

You seem not to realise that the widespread contempt for UK politics is largely because the democratic will of the electorate has been ignored by their elected representatives over their referendum decision. Thankfully, they now have the opportunity to give those charlatans their marching orders. Will you call for the election to be rerun after a year using the same flawed logic as you apply to the referendum?

 

Regarding honesty in politics, I was amused to read that the last leader of the Labour Party, Red Ed Millband, has claimed that he voted 9 times to get Brexit sorted. This has been quickly debunked and he has egg all over his face. He must have a really low opinion of the intelligence of his constituency if he thought he could get away with that.

[Tamesaint]

He was talking specifically about supposed BBC bias, not media bias as a whole (and certainly not the print media). Try reading properly Les.

 

Thank you for replying. I hadn't seen Les's response

but as you say he clearly doesn't read very well

 

Apart from an inability to read well , does anyone know what the problem is with Les? Did he ever reply when asked to quote examples of how the EU adversely affected his life? Did that get sent in one of those periods when he ran away from this thread?

[Guided Missile]

I see Gavin's old company have realised that Boris continues to play a blinder:

 

Goldman Sachs is betting on a “Boris boom” and a surge of foreign fund flows into Britain if the election delivers a clear outcome, propelling faster economic growth through the early 2020s than in the struggling eurozone. The US investment bank expects a “Brexit Breakthrough” and a catch-up surge in undervalued UK assets as one of its top seven trade ideas for 2020, advising clients to take the plunge on sterling and beaten-down equities in the domestic sector. “We have identified more than $150bn (£116bn) of UK inflows that could be unlocked by some progress towards Brexit resolution. The upcoming election will reset the Parliamentary arithmetic and potentially clear the way,” it said.

 

They must have been reading my posts on this thread. They were obviously ignoring Gavin's, like me.

[Guided Missile]

Financial Sage:

27-06-2016 - Thank you for that, Private Frazer. I think you have no idea how a weak pound will enhance the value of UK stocks when the gamblers quit the scene and the long term value of UK plc is recognised.

Financial Has Been:

Brilliant, compelling analysis. I've seen the perfect job ad for you on the FT:

 

 

Wanted: Trade negotiators, no experience necessary. Average intelligence desirable.

 

 

Apply to: Absolutely Clueless, BoJo House.

 

 

Pay: Tons of Zimbabwe dollars.

 

 

It would suit you perfectly, pal

 

 

#tiredofexperts

[badgerx16]

Who do people think will be the more obnoxious and ovebearing; Brexiteers if we finally leave the EU, or Scousers if Liverpool win the Premier League ?

[OldNick]

Who do people think will be the more obnoxious and ovebearing; Brexiteers if we finally leave the EU, or Scousers if Liverpool win the Premier League ?

Scoucers at a country mile as the media bloody adore Liverpool

[shurlock]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/06/alexandra-hall-british-diplomat-resigns-letter-cant-peddle-half-truths-uk-government

 

#truepatriot

[Guided Missile]

Chickens coming home to roost:

 

German retail sales figures out this week showed a 1.9pc year-on-year fall. Its mighty auto industry, the engine of the industrial machine, is slashing jobs, with 9,500 redundancies at Audi announced in the last month and another 10,000 at Daimler, as its manufacturers desperately try to pivot away from high-pollution diesel to electric vehicles.

 

The once mighty Deutsche Bank is still cutting jobs as it tries to keep itself alive. Meanwhile, the government looks more fragile than ever, with Angela Merkel’s grand coalition coming apart at the seams and with the anti-business Greens almost certain to win a share of power soon.

 

For a long time, the scariest financial graph in the world has been the Deutsche Bank share price. Shares in the country’s biggest bank have fallen from €112 in 2007 to €6.40 now. In the last five years they have collapsed from €33. It keeps hitting fresh lows. A blip? Not really.

 

The market thinks the bank is in trouble, and its main rivals are not looking a whole lot healthier. Heading into a downturn, you would hope your banks were in robust shape. Weak financial institutions don’t make it through a recession, but that is what Germany has. And yet, those banks are also systematically important to the global financial system. A collapse will ripple out around the world.

 

The UK? Jumping into the lifeboats with Boris at the helm.

[badgerx16]

Chickens coming home to roost:

"..... 9,500 redundancies at Audi announced in the last month..... "

 

 

The UK? Jumping into the lifeboats with Boris at the helm.

To take place over the next 6 years, via an early retirement program, as the company restructures so as to focus on hybrid and electric vehicles, which in itself is expected to create 2000 new jobs.

[badgerx16]

"BORIS JOHNSON’s Brexit deal would lead to “high levels” of customs checks on goods passing between Northern Ireland and Britain, according to another leaked Government document."

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1214971/brexit-news-latest-northern-ireland-goods-trade-boris-johnson-brexit-deal

 

 

There are lies, damned lies, and then there are promises and statements by Boris Johnson.

[shurlock]

So the US has effectively shut down the WTO appeals court, meaning the organisation is now toothless. For many it likely means the beginning of the end of the WTO as we know it. This is the same WTO the swivels have been cheerily telling us will guarantee free trade for us outside the EU. All lapped up, of course, by the hard of thinking on here.

 

https://time.com/5746978/wto-appeals-court/

 

#letsgoWTO

[doddisalegend]

So the US has effectively shut down the WTO appeals court, meaning the organisation is now toothless. For many it likely means the beginning of the end of the WTO as we know it. This is the same WTO the swivels have been cheerily telling us will guarantee free trade for us outside the EU. All lapped up, of course, by the hard of thinking on here.

 

https://time.com/5746978/wto-appeals-court/

 

#letsgoWTO

Brilliant a great time for a country to abandon being in a big trade bloc and going it alone and its all thanks to the brexiters American poster boy...

 

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[badgerx16]

Found on a comment on Andrew Marr's twitter;

[Batman]

Who reckons we won’t leave now?

[Guided Missile]

Final update:

 

Originally Posted by Guided Missile

1. Get rid of the traitors in the party - Done
   
2. Replace sheep in wolves clothing with loyal Conservatives - Done
   
3. Unify the party - Done
   
4. Go to the EU with a freedom charter - Done
   
5. Taunt a divided Marxist dominated Labour, joke of a party during the run up - Done
   
6. Call an election - Done
   
7. Message: The People vs Parliament - Done
   
8. Arrange a deal with Nigel - Done
   
9. Win a substantial majority - Obviously
   
10. Watch Corbyn, Labour and the EU project sink without a trace - Cheerio, cheerio, cheerio...
    

Boris played a blinder.

[hypochondriac]

Final update:

 

 

Boris played a blinder.

Tbf they can't deny you didn't call it...

[Guided Missile]

Meanwhile, back to the point of the original post and the whole point of Brexit:

The US President wrote on Twitter : "Congratulations to Boris Johnson on his great WIN! Britain and the United States will now be free to strike a massive new Trade Deal after BREXIT. This deal has the potential to be far bigger and more lucrative than any deal that could be made with the E.U. Celebrate Boris!"

God Bless America (and Britain), the Land(s) of the Free

[badgerx16]

Meanwhile, back to the point of the original post and the whole point of Brexit:

 

God Bless America (and Britain), the Land(s) of the Free

A trade deal strictly on the USA's terms.

[shurlock]

Freedom charter (is that the EU’s original proposal that May and Johnson had previously rejected or the bit that presages the end of the UK) and a reciprocal FTA with the US.

 

If I had business dealings with any of you in real life, it would be like taking candy from a baby

Edited 13 December, 2019 by shurlock

[Jonnyboy]

Freedom charter (is that the EU’s original proposal that May and Johnson had previously rejected or the bit that presages the end of the UK) and a reciprocal FTA with the US.

 

If I had business dealings with any of you in real life, it would be like taking candy from a baby

 

What are your thoughts on this, is it a credible article or conspiracy?

https://dangerousglobe.com/reports/brexit-the-atlantic-bridge-a-nice-business-to-do-people-with/

[Wes Tender]

A trade deal strictly on the USA's terms.

 

Why would it be only on their terms? Wouldn't it be mutually beneficial, therefore on terms beneficial to both parties? Explain and justify your opinion.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

A trade deal strictly on the USA's terms.

 

It is an interesting one this. Would you not think that Boris can now play off the EU and the US against each other. For instance, Trump must know that he can resurrect the fortunes of Detroit simply by getting a favourable deal for US cars. Merkel must be thinking the same thing and worrying about the million cars that they sell into the EU every year.

[benjii]

It is an interesting one this. Would you not think that Boris can now play off the EU and the US against each other. For instance, Trump must know that he can resurrect the fortunes of Detroit simply by getting a favourable deal for US cars. Merkel must be thinking the same thing and worrying about the million cars that they sell into the EU every year.

 

Yeah, but then people would have to drive American cars.

[Weston Super Saint]

Yeah, but then people would have to drive American cars.

 

Like Ford or General Motors?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Yeah, but then people would have to drive American cars.

 

Would price not be a considerable influence?

[Lord Duckhunter]

We will now get to see who was right. Would a credible threat to walk away get you a better deal. We got an horrendous WA because The Bercow’s, Grieve’s, Coopers, & Letwin’s of the world ensured we couldn’t walk away. With a stonking majority, Boris can credibly threaten to walk away from Trade talks if they won’t give him a decent deal.

 

Let’s see.

 

 

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[shurlock]

It is an interesting one this. Would you not think that Boris can now play off the EU and the US against each other. For instance, Trump must know that he can resurrect the fortunes of Detroit simply by getting a favourable deal for US cars. Merkel must be thinking the same thing and worrying about the million cars that they sell into the EU every year.

 

Jesus wept. Mercantilism for dummies meets the Apprentice. There’s thick and then there’s thick

Edited 14 December, 2019 by shurlock

[shurlock]

We will now get to see who was right. Would a credible threat to walk away get you a better deal. We got an horrendous WA because The Bercow’s, Grieve’s, Coopers, & Letwin’s of the world ensured we couldn’t walk away. With a stonking majority, Boris can credibly threaten to walk away from Trade talks if they won’t give him a decent deal.

 

Let’s see.

 

 

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Like when Boris bottled it and caved into the EU’s original proposal for the withdrawal agreement. You must have missed that one little fella.

[Wes Tender]

Like when Boris bottled it and caved into the EU’s original proposal for the withdrawal agreement. You must have missed that one little fella.

 

You're in top insult form today, Gavyn. I think that you must really be suffering the indignity of the election result flying in the face of the outcome that you would have like and this is your backlash to sooth your furrowed brow. But as you say, you're going to come up smelling of roses no matter what happened, so you couldn't care a toss either way.

 

You seem not to have realised that when Boris caved in to May's third vote on her surrender treaty, it was on the basis that he thought that the alternative was no Brexit at all. Do try and bring yourself up to speed on this, Gavyn. He is not only in a position now whereby as PM in a short time he had himself altered that original proposal despite the EU stating that it could not be done, but he now commands a stonking Parliamentary majority giving him a far stronger hand in the negotiations and the ability to walk away from them if he doesn't consider the deal favourable enough to our interests. I don't know what sort of consultant you are, but somebody as super-intelligent as you surely realises that rule one of business negotiation is that you must be prepared to walk away from a bad deal and that gives you an edge in those negotiations.

[shurlock]

You're in top insult form today, Gavyn. I think that you must really be suffering the indignity of the election result flying in the face of the outcome that you would have like and this is your backlash to sooth your furrowed brow. But as you say, you're going to come up smelling of roses no matter what happened, so you couldn't care a toss either way.

 

You seem not to have realised that when Boris caved in to May's third vote on her surrender treaty, it was on the basis that he thought that the alternative was no Brexit at all. Do try and bring yourself up to speed on this, Gavyn. He is not only in a position now whereby as PM in a short time he had himself altered that original proposal despite the EU stating that it could not be done, but he now commands a stonking Parliamentary majority giving him a far stronger hand in the negotiations and the ability to walk away from them if he doesn't consider the deal favourable enough to our interests. I don't know what sort of consultant you are, but somebody as super-intelligent as you surely realises that rule one of business negotiation is that you must be prepared to walk away from a bad deal and that gives you an edge in those negotiations.

 

You’ve completely missed my point Les. Where did I mention May’s third vote? I’m talking about Johnson’s oven-ready deal.

Edited 14 December, 2019 by shurlock

[Wes Tender]

You’ve completely missed my point Les. Where did I mention May’s third vote? I’m talking about Johnson’s oven-ready deal.

 

Well, like LD, I must have missed it. I'm sure that you will be happy to bring us both up to speed. Or perhaps you mistakenly think that Boris's oven ready deal was exactly the same as the original May surrender treaty?

[shurlock]

Well, like LD, I must have missed it. I'm sure that you will be happy to bring us both up to speed. Or perhaps you mistakenly think that Boris's oven ready deal was exactly the same as the original May surrender treaty?

 

Where did I say it was Les. I said it’s effectively the same deal that the EU had agreed to offer May in December 2017 before she and her party rejected it and proposed the UK-wide backstop instead. The EU and Varadkar couldn’t believe their lucky stars when Johnson folded quicker than a cheap suit and reverted to their preferred solution. They are delighted that there’s now a healthy majority to pass it. No wonder your Nigel is nervous.

Edited 14 December, 2019 by shurlock