Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[badgerx16]

No Brexit is better than anything on offer.

Always has been.

[Shroppie]

EU Commissioners have gone against Junker and refused to rule out an extension. At least that knocks on the head "this deal or no deal"

 

How many Labour MPs in Leave seats will now buckle in the hope of saving themselves in the upcoming election? That's the key.

 

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[Wes Tender]

 

Thank God that simpleton Corbyn just has a knee-jerk reaction to rejecting anything the Tories decide on and will hopefully reject this surrender treaty, along with the SNP and other fringe groupings on the left. Clean Brexit, here we come.

[badgerx16]

Clean Brexit, here we come.

More likely an extension, no further progress, then GE.

[norwaysaint]

I get the impression that opponents of Brexit will automatically reject this deal, even though it's about as good a deal as there's likely to be, because they will see that as rejecting brexit and Boris.

 

Because of that, there will probably be a no deal brexit, which is not good for anyone.

[shurlock]

I get the impression that opponents of Brexit will automatically reject this deal, even though it's about as good a deal as there's likely to be, because they will see that as rejecting brexit and Boris.

 

Because of that, there will probably be a no deal brexit, which is not good for anyone.

 

Do you think Wes Tender voted remain or leave in the referendum pal?

[shurlock]

 

Thank God that simpleton Corbyn just has a knee-jerk reaction to rejecting anything the Tories decide on and will hopefully reject this surrender treaty, along with the SNP and other fringe groupings on the left. Clean Brexit, here we come.

 

 

I’m confused. GM was telling us that it was the freedom charter...

[norwaysaint]

Do you think Wes Tender voted remain or leave in the referendum pal?

 

I don't know or care who that is, fwiend.

[shurlock]

I don't know or care who that is, fwiend.

 

So you’re chatting s**t then.

[norwaysaint]

So you’re chatting s**t then.

 

No, I believe what I said. I think the people who reject this would generally have rejected any deal. Personally I would prefer remain, but I think it's the government's job to make the best deal they can and deliver Brexit. Most deals will be a poor result, but still better than no deal.

 

Why the confrontational reply?

[doddisalegend]

I get the impression that opponents of Brexit will automatically reject this deal, even though it's about as good a deal as there's likely to be, because they will see that as rejecting brexit and Boris.

 

Because of that, there will probably be a no deal brexit, which is not good for anyone.

Let's be fair if you are an opponent of brexit then you have every right to reject anything but not leaving. I can respect the Lib Dems position, for example, becuase they are upfront about where they stand.

 

More bizarre are those who profess to want to leave but then keep blocking attempts to leave because it's seen as some sort of surrender to the nasty foreigners.

 

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[shurlock]

No, I believe what I said. I think the people who reject this would generally have rejected any deal. Personally I would prefer remain, but I think it's the government's job to make the best deal they can and deliver Brexit. Most deals will be a poor result, but still better than no deal.

 

Why the confrontational reply?

 

Because your view of the world (on this question) is black and white, so necessitated a black and white response. There are a large number of people who voted Brexit Party and see this as a surrender treaty. And there are conditional remainers who would vote for a deal -and some voted for May’s deal and many more voted for a permanent customs union or what’s been called the common market 2.0- but oppose Johnson’s deal on the merits because it fundamentally threatens the union and because of the implications of the political declaration. Characterising the majority of remain opposition as either knee-jerk or politically cynical is pony.

Edited 17 October, 2019 by shurlock

[norwaysaint]

Let's be fair if you are an opponent of brexit then you have every right to reject anything but not leaving. I can respect the Lib Dems position, for example, becuase they are upfront about where they stand.

 

More bizarre are those who profess to want to leave but then keep blocking attempts to leave because it's seen as some sort of surrender to the nasty foreigners.

 

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I agree with all of that, but I think it does make a mockery of blocking no deal, when they don't actually want a deal to be made either. It gives me more respect for the libdems too, but I do fear that wrecking all possible deals could eventually lead to a no deal brexit.

[badgerx16]

.... but I do fear that wrecking all possible deals could eventually lead to a no deal brexit.

If 'all possible deals' are unacceptable, including 'no deal', then perhaps that indicates that the whole thing was a stupid idea to start with.

[doddisalegend]

I agree with all of that, but I think it does make a mockery of blocking no deal, when they don't actually want a deal to be made either. It gives me more respect for the libdems too, but I do fear that wrecking all possible deals could eventually lead to a no deal brexit.

Not really the end game for the Lib Dems is to force another referendumm So they are trying to bring that about by blocking a deal or a no deal in the eventual hope it goes back to the people, to vote stay, a second time around.

Not saying it's the right strategy ( or the wrong) or that it will work but having set out their stall as firmly anti leave they can't really back a deal to err.. leave.

 

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[CB Fry]

Now Corbyn has bottled out of even trying to attach a second referendum to the deal I have reached the point where I think it might as well get voted through now. And it will, if only by a couple of votes.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if the DUP abstained which would pretty much seal it.

 

Will be a fascinating two or three years ahead.

[shurlock]

Now Corbyn has bottled out of even trying to attach a second referendum to the deal I have reached the point where I think it might as well get voted through now. And it will, if only by a couple of votes.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if the DUP abstained which would pretty much seal it.

 

Will be a fascinating two or three years ahead.

 

Well England, Scotland and Wales will be facing exactly the same no deal cliff edge in December 2020 once the transition period runs out. It’s pretty unlikely that a comprehensive FTA with the EU will have been negotiated and agreed by then. It’ll be deja vu all over again.

Edited 17 October, 2019 by shurlock

[norwaysaint]

If 'all possible deals' are unacceptable, including 'no deal', then perhaps that indicates that the whole thing was a stupid idea to start with.

 

While I agree Brexit is a mistake in the first place, when the choice is essentiallly deal or no deal, surely deal is the better option. There must come a point where people who aren't openly trying to block Brexit have to accept either the deal available or accept no deal, Otherwise they should openly say that they intend to actively block any kind of Brexit, which I think is an acceptable position as it represents approximately half the population.

[CB Fry]

Well England, Scotland and Wales will be facing exactly the same no deal cliff edge in December 2020 once the transition period runs out. It’s pretty unlikely that a comprehensive FTA with the EU will have been negotiated and agreed by then. It’ll be deja vu all over again.

Indeed.

 

Let's see how that plays out, especially with those who think that Brexit will be over and done with on November 1st.

Edited 17 October, 2019 by CB Fry

[ashnats]

Now the negotiation for the deal is over for this phase there is no good reason not to extend to January. Then, we can read the small print, analyse the deal, and put it through parliament in good time. This is what the EU is doing, eu Parliament is perusing the deal and will ratify on 13th Nov. We should do the same.

 

Then, if the deal is not passed, rather than crashing out, alternatives can be enacted, e.g. A general election or 2nd referendum, revoke, or any combination thereof.

 

The artifical deadline was just to get us to this point, there's no need for it anymore. A mature, measured approach is needed, rather than this ****wittery caused by a fake deadline and Johnson's infantile nonsense.

[Shroppie]

I find it ironic, ridiculous and frustrating that this massive decision for the UK will now, twice, be made by a tiny minority.

 

Firstly, the Tory Party elected Johnson, totally unrepresentative of anything except ageing right-wing Mail readers. He's a lying, manipulative bully but he's their lying, manipulative bully and if they don't back him the Tory Party is dead, do he gets to invoke extreme tactics with their blessing.

 

Now, having struck a deal, any deal (the consequences of implementing it don't matter, he's "got Brexit done" and killed the Brexit Party), the fate of the deal is in the hands of a dozen or so weak Labour MPs who think they can save their seats in Leave constituencies by supporting the deal.

 

Which is pure lunacy, since if Johnson gets the deal through, it will be a Tory victory and Labour will be decimated. Corbyn's position of wanting to deliver Brexit himself was ridiculous. Never happening. He's still in a fantasy world where he thinks he can win an election. His only chance was to make sure Johnson failed, stir up the splits in the Tories' and allow Brexit Party to take away their votes. Only then would he have stood a chance in a GE.

 

Can only hope all Labour MPs have the intelligence to see the future of their party rests on them voting this deal down, rather than going for self-interest.

 

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[badgerx16]

Can only hope all Labour MPs have the intelligence to see the future of their party rests on them voting this deal down, rather than going for self-interest.

Labour MP Ronnie Campbell says he will probably vote for the deal - but then again, he is standing down at the next election.

[whelk]

I’ve been worn down and hope the deal goes through now without knowing too much about it and starting to not give a fck about NI.

[norwaysaint]

Those people who think this deal should not be accepted, is it mainly due to the content of the deal, or is it mainly due to not wanting brexit or not wanting a perceived Boris success?

 

Also, why don't you feel that without this, a no-deal brexit on October 31st becomes an immediate reality? A deal on the table rightly removes the safety net of the Benn act even if parliament blocks the deal.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Those people who think this deal should not be accepted, is it mainly due to the content of the deal, or is it mainly due to not wanting brexit or not wanting a perceived Boris success?

 

Also, why don't you feel that without this, a no-deal brexit on October 31st becomes an immediate reality? A deal on the table rightly removes the safety net of the Benn act even if parliament blocks the deal.

 

Frankly, I'd just vote for it and get it done and dusted. Let's get on with actually negotiating the full deal - don't forget this is only an interim deal.

 

The whole thing is just very sad though.

[badgerx16]

Those people who think this deal should not be accepted, is it mainly due to the content of the deal, or is it mainly due to not wanting brexit or not wanting a perceived Boris success?

 

Also, why don't you feel that without this, a no-deal brexit on October 31st becomes an immediate reality? A deal on the table rightly removes the safety net of the Benn act even if parliament blocks the deal.

 

Why is this deal so good when it is effectively the May deal, which was repeatedly slated by all and sundry, with a revised arrangement for NI.

[LGTL]

The DUP will be bribed with hard cash to ensure this deal goes through. I find it frankly sickening how a party like the DUP and Arlene Foster in particular are calling the shots of this countries biggest decision in years. The DUP FFS.

[aintforever]

I think the best outcome is for the deal to get approved subject to an approval referendum. That takes no deal off the table, takes parliament and party politics out of the equation, and means this option has been chosen because it is the best way forward not just because there is a threat of a no deal.

[Sheaf Saint]

Why is this deal so good when it is effectively the May deal, which was repeatedly slated by all and sundry, with a revised arrangement for NI.

 

Don't forget that Johnson had previously said that no British government ever could or should enact anything that put an effective border in the Irish Sea, and he hated May's deal so much he resigned from the cabinet over it.

 

So forgive me if I'm a little skeptical that this 'fantastic' new deal is actually great for the country. Johnson doesn't give a shiny sh!t. He's only interested in being seen to be the man that delivered Brexit. The details and the consequences are of no importance to him.

[norwaysaint]

Why is this deal so good when it is effectively the May deal, which was repeatedly slated by all and sundry, with a revised arrangement for NI.

 

I don't think many people think it is good. Like you, I would have preferred a remain outcome (although I get no say as I am not a resident), but that's not an option available now. I think no-deal will be worse though and that is the corner that people voting against the deal may be painting themselves into. The deadline is October 31st, the only thing postponing that was not having a deal on the table. That obstacle has now been removed, so that deadline is a reality again. So, deal or no deal?

[Sheaf Saint]

The DUP will be bribed with hard cash to ensure this deal goes through. I find it frankly sickening how a party like the DUP and Arlene Foster in particular are calling the shots of this countries biggest decision in years. The DUP FFS.

 

Remember David Cameron's scaremongering in the 2015 election campaign when he warned people not to vote for Labour as they would end up being ruled by the SNP?

[norwaysaint]

Remember David Cameron's scaremongering in the 2015 election campaign when he warned people not to vote for Labour as they would end up being ruled by the SNP?

 

Minor parties playing a key role in coalitions often get a disproportionate amount of power. Here in Norway, the Christian party managed to have the prime minister for years, despite being the junior coalition member. It makes you wonder how the libdems managed to make themselves such an irrelevance when they shared power.

[badgerx16]

So, deal or no deal?

Referendum ; this deal or remain.

[norwaysaint]

Referendum ; this deal or remain.

Why do you think that might happen? As far as I can see they either accept the deal and that's how we leave on 31st, or they reject it, but we are still out on the deadline. What's the realistic situation that brings about another referendum now? Genuine question, as I would like that situation, but can't see why it would happen.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Why do you think that might happen? As far as I can see they either accept the deal and that's how we leave on 31st, or they reject it, but we are still out on the deadline. What's the realistic situation that brings about another referendum now? Genuine question, as I would like that situation, but can't see why it would happen.

 

Why are we out on the deadline? If it fails then Boris still has to ask for an extension.

[doddisalegend]

The DUP will be bribed with hard cash to ensure this deal goes through. I find it frankly sickening how a party like the DUP and Arlene Foster in particular are calling the shots of this countries biggest decision in years. The DUP FFS.

The DUP have to pander to their support in NI from their point of view anything that marks NI out as different from the rest of the Union or might encourage closer ties with the Republic is dangerous. I'm not sure a load of cash will cut it this time.

 

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[norwaysaint]

Why are we out on the deadline? If it fails then Boris still has to ask for an extension.

As far as I have understood, the EU don't have to give an extension and are reluctant to, having offered about as good a deal as there is likely to be. Isn't that what we are hearing is the current situation or have I misunderstood?

[buctootim]

As far as I have understood, the EU don't have to give an extension and are reluctant to, having offered about as good a deal as there is likely to be. Isn't that what we are hearing is the current situation or have I misunderstood?

 

They don’t have to and mostly don’t want to, but will in preference to no deal if the May deal minus is rejected

[Shroppie]

I think the best outcome is for the deal to get approved subject to an approval referendum. That takes no deal off the table, takes parliament and party politics out of the equation, and means this option has been chosen because it is the best way forward not just because there is a threat of a no deal.

I tend to agree but I don't think the numbers are there to add a confirmatory referendum.

 

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[Unbelievable Jeff]

As far as I have understood, the EU don't have to give an extension and are reluctant to, having offered about as good a deal as there is likely to be. Isn't that what we are hearing is the current situation or have I misunderstood?

 

The EU will give an extension if No Deal is on the table and a GE is imminent (which it is).

[Shroppie]

Those people who think this deal should not be accepted, is it mainly due to the content of the deal, or is it mainly due to not wanting brexit or not wanting a perceived Boris success?

 

Also, why don't you feel that without this, a no-deal brexit on October 31st becomes an immediate reality? A deal on the table rightly removes the safety net of the Benn act even if parliament blocks the deal.

To answer your first paragraph, all three.

 

Your second paragraph is wrong. The Benn Act still requires an extension to be requested if an offered deal is rejected in parliament.

 

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[badgerx16]

Why do you think that might happen? As far as I can see they either accept the deal and that's how we leave on 31st, or they reject it, but we are still out on the deadline. What's the realistic situation that brings about another referendum now? Genuine question, as I would like that situation, but can't see why it would happen.

The "Benn Act" says that BoJo must ask for an extension if the deal isn't agreed by Parliament. Admittedly the EU don't have to acquiesce to the request, and Cummings probably has another cunning plan, but if an extension were requested and agreed then GE, not exactly a clear referendum given the poor quality of the options, but it gives 'the People' the choice, and at least this time it is a better informed one.

[aintforever]

The EU will give an extension if No Deal is on the table and a GE is imminent (which it is).

 

I don't think they will extend unless it guarantees some sort of decision on Brexit. Chances are a GE will just result in a hung parliament which will solve nothing, if anything it could make the situation even more muddled if the main two parties do as bad as expected.

[sadoldgit]

If Boris is convinced that it is such a wonderful deal let’s put it to the people. Let’s have a referendum either for the deal of to revoke Article 50. We can then have a GE to a elect a Government who will either spend the next life of Parliament sorting out the messy details of Brexit or getting the country back on its feet again after the last 3 wasted years.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I don't think they will extend unless it guarantees some sort of decision on Brexit. Chances are a GE will just result in a hung parliament which will solve nothing, if anything it could make the situation even more muddled if the main two parties do as bad as expected.

 

No-one knows what will happen in a GE, or the splits, so the EU won't take that risk for what is a 3 month extension.

 

Obviously IMHO.

[Sheaf Saint]

If Boris is convinced that it is such a wonderful deal let’s put it to the people.

 

The problem with that, as the last 3 and a half years have shown, is that it doesn't matter how good or bad the deal actually is, because there is a very large section of British society who will vote for it no matter what if that is the only option to actually leave.

 

It could include a clause requiring all British people to hand over their first born sons to the EU for scientific experiments or something equally horrific as part of the severance deal, and a huge number of ignorant c*nts would still rather vote for it than remain.

[sadoldgit]

The problem with that, as the last 3 and a half years have shown, is that it doesn't matter how good or bad the deal actually is, because there is a very large section of British society who will vote for it no matter what if that is the only option to actually leave.

 

It could include a clause requiring all British people to hand over their first born sons to the EU for scientific experiments or something equally horrific as part of the severance deal, and a huge number of ignorant c*nts would still rather vote for it than remain.

 

It’s a sad state of affairs. It wasn’t that long ago that we were laughing at the state of America having elected Trump. Now look at us!

[Saint86]

Its clearly a different deal to TM's one because it removes the backstop.

 

However. I've heard that it includes a lot of level playing field clauses which mean the UK can't negotiate better trade deals that the UK has, and we can't reclaim fishing waters etc. In which point, its garbage and true dead duck to hang round our necks.

 

Fact is though, trying to find the truth of it is impossible. The tories will paint it as the best thing since sliced bread, labour will vote against the tories regardless, the lib dems just want the whole thing revoked, the brexit party hate anything that isn't no deal, and the SNP will flat out throw their toys out of the pram until they've (and only them) have broken up the union. Trying to find the truth of it from all the conflicting agendas and arguments is impossible.

[LGTL]

Its clearly a different deal to TM's one because it removes the backstop.

 

However. I've heard that it includes a lot of level playing field clauses which mean the UK can't negotiate better trade deals that the UK has, and we can't reclaim fishing waters etc. In which point, its garbage and true dead duck to hang round our necks.

 

Fact is though, trying to find the truth of it is impossible. The tories will paint it as the best thing since sliced bread, labour will vote against the tories regardless, the lib dems just want the whole thing revoked, the brexit party hate anything that isn't no deal, and the SNP will flat out throw their toys out of the pram until they've (and only them) have broken up the union. Trying to find the truth of it from all the conflicting agendas and arguments is impossible.

 

Which is why it needs to go back to the people.

[shurlock]

Its clearly a different deal to TM's one because it removes the backstop.

 

However. I've heard that it includes a lot of level playing field clauses which mean the UK can't negotiate better trade deals that the UK has, and we can't reclaim fishing waters etc. In which point, its garbage and true dead duck to hang round our necks.

 

Fact is though, trying to find the truth of it is impossible. The tories will paint it as the best thing since sliced bread, labour will vote against the tories regardless, the lib dems just want the whole thing revoked, the brexit party hate anything that isn't no deal, and the SNP will flat out throw their toys out of the pram until they've (and only them) have broken up the union. Trying to find the truth of it from all the conflicting agendas and arguments is impossible.

 

It doesn’t remove the backstop so much as make it permanent, albeit applying only to NI (rather than the UK-wide) which was always the EU’s first preference.