Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[saint1977]

What is often conveniently overlooked is that the Withdrawal Agreement, ( the 'deal' ), is only a halfway house whilst the final trade agreement and other relationships with the EU are negotiated. Whether you think it is a good or bad deal, is is a path of transition, that prevents a dead fall off the cliff of no-deal. Unravelling 40 years of increasingly tightly bound integration was never going to be a simple overnight process.

 

And I have found something on which I agree with Dominic Cummings - Article 50 should have been delayed.

 

I agree with you, and gulp, Cummins, in this. Most Brexiteers and Remainers would probably agree that Article 50 being declared that early by May royally screwed whoever came next, although Boris didn’t need any help in that, the nutcase with his do or die crap about Oct 31. It was incredibly stupid but May generally wasn’t very bright. It’s what she thought the foaming at the mouth brigade in her party wanted, on top of the disgusting Windrush policies in the Home Office she was responsible for. Really, her and Boris have a lot in common in their lack of independent critical thought

[shurlock]

I agree with you, and gulp, Cummins, in this. Most Brexiteers and Remainers would probably agree that Article 50 being declared that early by May royally screwed whoever came next, although Boris didn’t need any help in that, the nutcase with his do or die crap about Oct 31. It was incredibly stupid but May generally wasn’t very bright. It’s what she thought the foaming at the mouth brigade in her party wanted, on top of the disgusting Windrush policies in the Home Office she was responsible for. Really, her and Boris have a lot in common in their lack of independent critical thought

 

Not sure I agree.

 

The Brexiters, led by the press, were chomping at the bit and pressuring May to trigger article 50. Its hard to see how she could have resisted that pressure for very long to hold what would have effectively been a moratorium on Brexit.

 

Cummings characterisation of delaying article 50 is also highly misleading and naive: the EU explicitly refused talks until article 50 had been triggered, so the only benefit from waiting would have come from working with the rest of the House to find out what was and wasn’t politically feasible. But the Conservative government and Cummings have never shown any appetite to compromise or build consensus. Quite the opposite.

 

Let’s also not forget that leading lights of Vote Leave believed that the UK held all the cards in negotiations. I suspect there’s a fair bit of revisionism going to cover up a basic underestimation of the complexity that Brexit involved. Much easier and less incriminating to pin the blame on poor execution than the folly of the project itself.

 

The real error was not that May triggered article 50 too early but that she failed to reach out to the rest of the House after pîssîng away her majority in the 2017 GE. Indeed had she not called a GE early, her withdrawal agreement would have likely passed with conservative backbench support, making the timing of triggering article 50 of little relevance or importance in the grand scheme.

Edited 27 September, 2019 by shurlock

[CB Fry]

Article 50 ws triggered nearly a year after the referendum so saying that was early is revisionist - as Shurlock says the demands to press that button from the Brexiteers was pretty high, and I am not sure it could have been held off much longer.

 

I remember one prominent and life long Brexiteer demanding it be triggered in his first utterances on the morning after the referendum.

 

The folly was that the year before triggering A50 (and indeed before the referendum) there was no serious planning, expectation management or building of consensus much as there hasn't been subsequently.

 

Just the utter delusion that if we keep holding on and holding on the EU will make good on the fairytale the Leave campaign told to the electorate. Collectively we have approached this without a clue and that why we have had our arses handed to us.

 

Even now we have idiots like Cleverley still trotting out the "The EU always capitulate at the last minute" even though we have already gone past the last minute (twice) and it was us that blinked (twice).

 

The only card we have now got once it goes to sh it is "we are being bullied by those people who we previously told you need us more than we need them".

 

Once no-deal happens every single one of the red-blooded Brexiteers will be screaming about the EU bullying us and punishing us before the pumpkin bunting comes down, conveniently forgetting the last 18 months where they repeatedly told us that no deal was exactly what they wanted and exactly what 17m people voted for.

[rallyboy]

Let's remember, for advanced thinkers it wasn't just an In or Out vote - it was, if I vote Out, forever, do I trust David Cameron's austerity government to get a good deal for all of us?

Brexiteers put their trust in the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox and Grayling.

That trust was misplaced as we were promised how quickly these unicorn trade deals would be in place, before David Davis headed straight off like a rude tourist, banging tables, demanding this and that, arrogantly telling everyone how easy this would be and how we'd tell the EU who was boss!

We were also going to shout in the faces of China, India and the US to make demands - because everyone needs us more than we need them.

To think more realistically based on facts is to talk us down, to be a snowflake and a traitor....remember, we'd heard enough from experts.

To plan ahead we set up a ferry company that didn't have any ships, and Raab discovered that Dover and Calais are ports, and that Ireland has some historical divides, while boasting that the UK leads the world in every single field of human endeavour.

I don't camp outside royal weddings wearing a Union Jack suit, but I'm as patriotic as the next guy, and the clever way to get the best deal would have been to be polite and ruthless, not arrogant and fanciful.

Boris blatantly lied to those voters, he's still doing it now.

He's clearly not negotiating, he thinks he has a loophole to force us into the chaos that his billionaire backers need, I'm pretty sure he hasn't as his advisors are idiots.

So we now have to follow a puppet of hedge funds and extremists, who will fail us.

When he fails to deliver his clear promise, his masterplan will be to blame foreigners for not giving in to his unworkable fantasist demands, and to incite further death threats against MPs and judges.

[badgerx16]

Let's remember, for advanced thinkers it wasn't just an In or Out vote - it was, if I vote Out, forever, do I trust David Cameron's austerity government to get a good deal for all of us?

Brexiteers put their trust in the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox and Grayling.

That trust was misplaced as we were promised how quickly these unicorn trade deals would be in place, before David Davis headed straight off like a rude tourist, banging tables, demanding this and that, arrogantly telling everyone how easy this would be and how we'd tell the EU who was boss!

We were also going to shout in the faces of China, India and the US to make demands - because everyone needs us more than we need them.

To think more realistically based on facts is to talk us down, to be a snowflake and a traitor....remember, we'd heard enough from experts.

To plan ahead we set up a ferry company that didn't have any ships, and Raab discovered that Dover and Calais are ports, and that Ireland has some historical divides, while boasting that the UK leads the world in every single field of human endeavour.

I don't camp outside royal weddings wearing a Union Jack suit, but I'm as patriotic as the next guy, and the clever way to get the best deal would have been to be polite and ruthless, not arrogant and fanciful.

Boris blatantly lied to those voters, he's still doing it now.

He's clearly not negotiating, he thinks he has a loophole to force us into the chaos that his billionaire backers need, I'm pretty sure he hasn't as his advisors are idiots.

So we now have to follow a puppet of hedge funds and extremists, who will fail us.

When he fails to deliver his clear promise, his masterplan will be to blame foreigners for not giving in to his unworkable fantasist demands, and to incite further death threats against MPs and judges.

This post ranks right up there with other classics of yours on the Pompey Takeover thread. A succinct and accurate summary presented in the best tradition of British satirical put-down.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Let's remember, for advanced thinkers it wasn't just an In or Out vote - it was, if I vote Out, forever, do I trust David Cameron's austerity government to get a good deal for all of us?

Brexiteers put their trust in the likes of Johnson, Gove, Fox and Grayling.

That trust was misplaced as we were promised how quickly these unicorn trade deals would be in place, before David Davis headed straight off like a rude tourist, banging tables, demanding this and that, arrogantly telling everyone how easy this would be and how we'd tell the EU who was boss!

We were also going to shout in the faces of China, India and the US to make demands - because everyone needs us more than we need them.

To think more realistically based on facts is to talk us down, to be a snowflake and a traitor....remember, we'd heard enough from experts.

To plan ahead we set up a ferry company that didn't have any ships, and Raab discovered that Dover and Calais are ports, and that Ireland has some historical divides, while boasting that the UK leads the world in every single field of human endeavour.

I don't camp outside royal weddings wearing a Union Jack suit, but I'm as patriotic as the next guy, and the clever way to get the best deal would have been to be polite and ruthless, not arrogant and fanciful.

Boris blatantly lied to those voters, he's still doing it now.

He's clearly not negotiating, he thinks he has a loophole to force us into the chaos that his billionaire backers need, I'm pretty sure he hasn't as his advisors are idiots.

So we now have to follow a puppet of hedge funds and extremists, who will fail us.

When he fails to deliver his clear promise, his masterplan will be to blame foreigners for not giving in to his unworkable fantasist demands, and to incite further death threats against MPs and judges.

 

Great post.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I'm still not sure what the EU are going to, and are expected to capitulate on.

 

The backstop has to happen, or we'll have a hard border. If BoJo and his team of morons come up with a solution, then that'd be great, but it's still not the EU capitulating.

 

As said previously, I think there is a solution to be had where customs forms in NI and Republic are done away from the border, but it will take time to develop the relevant technology and to implement and train successfully. It just also makes life a lot more administrative on Ireland, but that's to be expected if they want to keep away from a hard border.

 

Either way, we'd still need a backstop until this can be fully implemented.

[CB Fry]

I'm still not sure what the EU are going to, and are expected to capitulate on.

 

The backstop has to happen, or we'll have a hard border. If BoJo and his team of morons come up with a solution, then that'd be great, but it's still not the EU capitulating.

 

As said previously, I think there is a solution to be had where customs forms in NI and Republic are done away from the border, but it will take time to develop the relevant technology and to implement and train successfully. It just also makes life a lot more administrative on Ireland, but that's to be expected if they want to keep away from a hard border.

 

Either way, we'd still need a backstop until this can be fully implemented.

 

The EU are going to capitulate by giving all the benefits of the shared market and customs arrangements and tariff free and frictionless trade and all the shared resources we like such as security and medicine regulations but in the new arrangement we don't have to pay in any money for any of it any more or go to any meetings about any of it any more and also we can make lots of exciting trade deals all over the world with whatever arrangements we like with markets that the insular narrow minded EU would never even speak to like Japan and South America. These arrangements don't mean any border on Ireland at all because we want to control our borders, all if them, without question but obviously not that one.

 

No downside just considerable upside. We hold all the cards. Once the German Car makers get wind of it we will get all of the above no problem. We just need to stand there and threaten to blow our own faces off and they will come running because they need us more than we need them. Just wait until the eleventh hour and THEY WILL CAPITULATE

Edited 28 September, 2019 by CB Fry

[Unbelievable Jeff]

The EU are going to capitulate by giving all the benefits of the shared market and customs arrangements and tariff free and frictionless trade and all the shared resources we like such as security and medicine regulations but in the new arrangement we don't have to pay in any money for any of it any more or go to any meetings about any of it any more and also we can make lots of exciting trade deals all over the world with whatever arrangements we like with markets that the insular narrow minded EU would never even speak to like Japan and South America. These arrangements don't mean any border on Ireland at all because we want to control our borders, all if them, without question but obviously not that one.

 

No downside just considerable upside. We hold all the cards. Once the German Car makers get wind of it we will get all of the above no problem. We just need to stand there and threaten to blow our own faces off and they will come running because they need us more than we need them. Just wait until the eleventh hour and THEY WILL CAPITULATE

 

So, the WA, just without paying? Yeah, alright.

[CB Fry]

 

Absolutely effing pathetic. Please help us please help us if no deal happens please please please

[CB Fry]

I'd call that a fu cking surrender letter all day long.

[badgerx16]

 

Absolutely effing pathetic. Please help us please help us if no deal happens please please please

 

EU saying they are ready for no-deal, pity we aren't.

[OldNick]

The PR plan is so transparent.

Cummings has workshopped expressions and told Boris and his loyal puppet army to chuck in the words surrender, traitor, chickens running away from the voters etc at every opportunity, to build a fake message.

It's strong and stable all over again - and the dim are lapping it up.

Meanwhile people are getting death threats, and chaos reigns.

The type of chaos that hedge funds love....

You are falling for the thing that you are telling others they are falling for. This hedge fund stuff is and has always been going on and some are betting on one side and others the other. It is not one way. It is just another bit of the scare tactics and misinformation used by both sides.

For all of our good we need a quick resolution and No deal, whilst the trouble that will cause is not ideal, it will focus minds very quickly on all sides. The country is bleeding to death and while many on here may not see it in their lives YET the economy is starting to really stall. Iam hearing form many different trades how slow things are getting and soon the job losses and businesses closures will start to snowball. Therefore we haven't time to fanny around waiting for MP's who really are not in the real world to decide our fate. Not making a decision either way is a disaster and personally if we revoke or go for no deal I would be fine as then we can get on with it. In limbo like we are at present is sending us into a downward spiral.

If Boris said we would hold the no deal decision until after an election, which would give the people the chance to vote in an election we would see then what way to go forward.

Personally at present I think the Tories would get a decent majority as the man in the street it seems to me wants this nightmare to end so we can try and move on.

[OldNick]

EU saying they are ready for no-deal, pity we aren't.

its all brinkmanship, sadly they know how to negotiate and its like taking candy from a kid dealing with us.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

 

Absolutely effing pathetic. Please help us please help us if no deal happens please please please

 

They now have to ask for an extension.

 

The government has prepared it's own noose.

[buctootim]

 

Absolutely effing pathetic. Please help us please help us if no deal happens please please please

 

I couldn't make out the signature on the Government's letter. Was it Grand old Duke of York?

[shurlock]

I'd call that a fu cking surrender letter all day long.

 

Don’t worry the swivels will be telling us that if they had had longer than July to plan, the Europeans would have been eating out of our hands by now. Another May stitch-up.

[shurlock]

From yesterday’s FT

 

“Setback for Brexit planning as senior official quits

 

Matthew Coats’ departure ‘puzzling and alarming’, says Whitehall source”

 

https://www.ft.com/content/ab601430-e14c-11e9-b112-9624ec9edc59

[scally]

[badgerx16]

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/list-of-brexit-lies

[scally]

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/list-of-brexit-lies

 

That's the trouble, you were lied to. You didn't know what you were voting for

[Unbelievable Jeff]

That's the trouble, you were lied to. You didn't know what you were voting for ��

 

Exactly, why we need another vote!

[badgerx16]

That's the trouble, you were lied to. You didn't know what you were voting for

I know I was lied to, by both sides, which is why I made up my own mind based on my own knowledge and understanding, and decided that to leave the EU was, and still is, a bad idea.

[scally]

But if the so called experts have no idea what chance have you got, the same people who told us those lies are now saying no deal is the end of the world.

[hypochondriac]

In a weird way I sort of agree with the lib dems who are at least honest about what they want. A charade of a second referendum is an idiotic idea and isn't going to heal any sort of divisions whatever way it goes. A half in non-brexit isn't going to please anyone either. The choices should be to leave properly with everything that entails or to cancel the whole thing. Both choices are difficult and will have real consequences.

[badgerx16]

.......the same people who told us those lies are now saying no deal is the end of the world.

Well, one group of them are. The fantasists on the other side are saying it's the best outcome.

[scally]

Well, one group of them are. The fantasists on the other side are saying it's the best outcome.

 

So you believe the people who advised George Osborne who could not have been more wrong if he'd tried and the same people who advised us to ditch the pound and use the euro

[shurlock]

So you believe the people who advised George Osborne who could not have been more wrong if he'd tried and the same people who advised us to ditch the pound and use the euro

 

What on earth are you talking about?

[aintforever]

In a weird way I sort of agree with the lib dems who are at least honest about what they want. A charade of a second referendum is an idiotic idea and isn't going to heal any sort of divisions whatever way it goes. A half in non-brexit isn't going to please anyone either. The choices should be to leave properly with everything that entails or to cancel the whole thing. Both choices are difficult and will have real consequences.

 

Nothing is going to heal the divisions, all that matters is doing the right thing for the country. A second referendum is obviously not ideal but not as bad as just ignoring the will of the people, or probably crashing out with no deal.

[badgerx16]

So you believe the people who advised George Osborne who could not have been more wrong if he'd tried and the same people who advised us to ditch the pound and use the euro

Qué ?

 

I didn't pay too much attention to "Project Fear", as I had little more than contempt for Cameron and Osborne, and I have always viewed Farage as a self-interested and completely untrustworthy, loathsome, chancer.

Edited 30 September, 2019 by badgerx16

[norwaysaint]

It seems a referendum of just Leave or Remain answers no questions at all.

 

You really need a multi part poll. All parts to be filled out in one referendum.

 

Leave or Remain?

 

If leave wins, would you accept the withdrawal agreement? Yes/No (assuming this remains the only agreement, backstop and all, as no other has ever been put forward or considered in three years)

 

If the vote rejects the deal, would you leave with no deal rather than remain? Yes/No

 

 

 

 

Would that be so hard? It would surely answer the questions the first referendum left interpretation. I honestly can't see why either side would disagree with it. No deal fans who say that the people just want Brexit delivered would get their vote, people who think remain is better than no deal would get their vote.

 

What am I getting wrong?

[scally]

It seems a referendum of just Leave or Remain answers no questions at all.

 

You really need a multi part poll. All parts to be filled out in one referendum.

 

Leave or Remain?

 

If leave wins, would you accept the withdrawal agreement? Yes/No (assuming this remains the only agreement, backstop and all, as no other has ever been put forward or considered in three years)

 

If the vote rejects the deal, would you leave with no deal rather than remain? Yes/No

 

 

 

 

Would that be so hard? It would surely answer the questions the first referendum left interpretation. I honestly can't see why either side would disagree with it. No deal fans who say that the people just want Brexit delivered would get their vote, people who think remain is better than no deal would get their vote.

 

What am I getting wrong?

 

It wouldn't work because if leave won the remoaners would want another go

Edited 30 September, 2019 by scally

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

In a weird way I sort of agree with the lib dems who are at least honest about what they want. A charade of a second referendum is an idiotic idea and isn't going to heal any sort of divisions whatever way it goes. A half in non-brexit isn't going to please anyone either. The choices should be to leave properly with everything that entails or to cancel the whole thing. Both choices are difficult and will have real consequences.

 

Nobody seems to have suggested going back to Europe and renegotiating with them a new relationship that keeps us in. This can then be put to the vote. As Sarkozy admitted, the EU made a strategic error in not giving Cameron anything of substance to put to the electorate and that cost them the referendum. With the chance of reintegrating us into the block they may find a new willingness to be flexible and address the failings of the existing arrangement that prompted a leave vote.

[aintforever]

It seems a referendum of just Leave or Remain answers no questions at all.

 

You really need a multi part poll. All parts to be filled out in one referendum.

 

Leave or Remain?

 

If leave wins, would you accept the withdrawal agreement? Yes/No (assuming this remains the only agreement, backstop and all, as no other has ever been put forward or considered in three years)

 

If the vote rejects the deal, would you leave with no deal rather than remain? Yes/No

 

 

 

 

Would that be so hard? It would surely answer the questions the first referendum left interpretation. I honestly can't see why either side would disagree with it. No deal fans who say that the people just want Brexit delivered would get their vote, people who think remain is better than no deal would get their vote.

 

What am I getting wrong?

 

Makes sense to me.

 

Problem is if our government do this and remain won then the Tories will get destroyed by Farage at the next General Election. So for the good of the Conservative party we have to just plough ahead with no deal regardless of how bad the consequences for the country.

[hypochondriac]

Nothing is going to heal the divisions, all that matters is doing the right thing for the country. A second referendum is obviously not ideal but not as bad as just ignoring the will of the people, or probably crashing out with no deal.

Having a sham of a second referendum amounts to ignoring the will of the people anyway. In fact it's actually more insulting because it's dressed up as being democratic when actually it's purely designed to overturn the original result.

[norwaysaint]

It wouldn't work because if leave won the remoaners would want another go

 

How do you think we should address the point that many who voted leave would have preferred to remain than have no deal? It was already a very narrow majority.

 

Serious question. I get the idea that the original referendum left enormous gaps that are causing the problems now. For the record, I didn't vote either way as I am not a resident and the final result will have minimal effect on me as I am a permanent resident in Norway and can claim Norwegian citizenship if I choose. My biggest interest is as a teacher who discusses this on a daily basis with my students.

[scally]

How do you think we should address the point that many who voted leave would have preferred to remain than have no deal? It was already a very narrow majority.

 

Serious question. I get the idea that the original referendum left enormous gaps that are causing the problems now. For the record, I didn't vote either way as I am not a resident and the final result will have minimal effect on me as I am a permanent resident in Norway and can claim Norwegian citizenship if I choose. My biggest interest is as a teacher who discusses this on a daily basis with my students.

 

That's a good point but I feel you can continually put obstacles in the way, We voted out and if you look at the internet there are plenty of videos of remainer mp's saying that after two years if we haven't got a deal the default position is no deal. You can't keep on having referendums because some people change their minds over time, saying we know more now than we did then doesn't cut it with me because we still have a long way to go and even the so called experts are just ****ing in the wind with their predictions

[shurlock]

That's a good point but I feel you can continually put obstacles in the way, We voted out and if you look at the internet there are plenty of videos of remainer mp's saying that after two years if we haven't got a deal the default position is no deal. You can't keep on having referendums because some people change their minds over time, saying we know more now than we did then doesn't cut it with me because we still have a long way to go and even the so called experts are just ****ing in the wind with their predictions

 

The 2017 GE Labour Manifesto explicitly rejected no deal. MPs were elected on that basis. You can’t be surprised that the Labour Party is doing exactly what it promised. Keep up pal.

[norwaysaint]

That's a good point but I feel you can continually put obstacles in the way, We voted out and if you look at the internet there are plenty of videos of remainer mp's saying that after two years if we haven't got a deal the default position is no deal. You can't keep on having referendums because some people change their minds over time, saying we know more now than we did then doesn't cut it with me because we still have a long way to go and even the so called experts are just ****ing in the wind with their predictions

 

But you also have to recognise that many who voted leave were never given the "leave with a deal" "leave without a deal" choice and would have chosen remain over no deal. When the majority was as wafer thin as it was, that's very relevant and there's a very real chance that the majority would rather remain than no deal. I can understand why people who want toleave at any cost would rather not look into this though, as it takes away the winning result. The fact is that the referendum was horribly flawed though.

 

Would you accept leave with the withdrawal agreement?

[aintforever]

Having a sham of a second referendum amounts to ignoring the will of the people anyway. In fact it's actually more insulting because it's dressed up as being democratic when actually it's purely designed to overturn the original result.

 

Except if the people of the UK still want to leave, they will leave. In a democratic kind of way.

[scally]

The 2017 GE Labour Manifesto explicitly rejected no deal. MPs were elected on that basis. You can’t be surprised that the Labour Party is doing exactly what it promised. Keep up pal.

 

The Labour party has no idea what they're doing and this comes from somebody who has never voted for any one else

[scally]

But you also have to recognise that many who voted leave were never given the "leave with a deal" "leave without a deal" choice and would have chosen remain over no deal. When the majority was as wafer thin as it was, that's very relevant and there's a very real chance that the majority would rather remain than no deal. I can understand why people who want toleave at any cost would rather not look into this though, as it takes away the winning result. The fact is that the referendum was horribly flawed though.

 

Would you accept leave with the withdrawal agreement?

 

The only people who are asking for a second referendum are remoaners, it's got nothing to do with democracy it's all about stopping brexit.

[shurlock]

The Labour party has no idea what they're doing and this comes from somebody who has never voted for any one else

 

That doesn’t follow.

 

Also note that the majority of Labour MPs voted for a Customs Union or Common Market 2.0 in the indicative votes. There was a clear compromise and cross-party solution available which would have respected the referendum result but was scuppered principally by May and vast swathes of Conservative MPs but also some dogmatic remainers.

Edited 30 September, 2019 by shurlock

[hypochondriac]

Except if the people of the UK still want to leave, they will leave. In a democratic kind of way.

And if the numbers taking part in this second referendum are significantly lower because many have become disillusioned by those in power doing everything they can to overturn the original result?

[norwaysaint]

The only people who are asking for a second referendum are remoaners, it's got nothing to do with democracy it's all about stopping brexit.

 

No, that's not accurate (and can we put the silly name calling aside for an adult conversation?). I know people who voted leave, but would rather remain than leave without a deal. That's why I am so aware of it being a thing.

[aintforever]

And if the numbers taking part in this second referendum are significantly lower because many have become disillusioned by those in power doing everything they can to overturn the original result?

 

If they choose not to vote then that is their choice, just like any other election. Those in power are representatives of the people doing what they think is best for the country, that's what a parliamentary democracy does.

 

Obviously a second referendum is not ideal, but unless Boris comes back with his "easiest deal in history" and it gets approved I can't see a better way out of the mess.

 

I'm not overly bothered if we leave or not (at the start of this thread I was arguing for leave) but the idea that we need to blindly plough ahead with a no deal, no matter how bad the probable/possible consequences, for the sake of democracy is just complete bullsh!t.

[badgerx16]

It wouldn't work because if leave won the remoaners would want another go

 

Ditto with leavers if remain won. Pandora's box was levered open by Cameron, and all the evils released will not be put back inside.

[scally]

Ditto with leavers if remain won. Pandora's box was levered open by Cameron, and all the evils released will not be put back inside.

 

Exactly why a 2nd referendum would solve nothing

[shurlock]

If they choose not to vote then that is their choice, just like any other election. Those in power are representatives of the people doing what they think is best for the country, that's what a parliamentary democracy does.

 

Obviously a second referendum is not ideal, but unless Boris comes back with his "easiest deal in history" and it gets approved I can't see a better way out of the mess.

 

I'm not overly bothered if we leave or not (at the start of this thread I was arguing for leave) but the idea that we need to blindly plough ahead with a no deal, no matter how bad the probable/possible consequences, for the sake of democracy is just complete bullsh!t.

 

Haven’t agreed with a lot of what you’ve said on this thread (and you probably have me on ignore) but acknowledge your pragmatism and independent mindedness.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Exactly why a 2nd referendum would solve nothing

 

But it would tell us the way the country wants to go; Remain, Leave with a deal, Leave with no deal.