Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[badgerx16]

Prorogation is unlawful, void, and of no effect !

[benjii]

The court said Johnson was, "bang out of order".

[badgerx16]

Parliament is still in session, and it is up to the Speakers of the Lords and Commons to work out what to do next.

[Sheaf Saint]

So it's all unraveling for Boris then. First the EU tell him what everybody else already knew - that there is no better deal to be done that the one already negotiated with May - and now the prorogation that he instigated in order to try and force through a no-deal exit has been ruled unlawful.

 

I wonder if he will appeal this decision to the ECJ now? That would be the most delicious irony if he did.

[benjii]

This is extremely significant but I worry about how the loony fringe will react to this. I predict a doubling-down of xenophobic, divisive, misleading guff designed to appeal to the base elements of the leave argument.

 

We need an election and we need rid of the swivel-eyes in the Tory party.

 

Unfortunately, the alternative is also pretty swivel-eyed.

 

We need a cross-party government and a further vote on Brexit.

[Tamesaint]

This is extremely significant but I worry about how the loony fringe will react to this. I predict a doubling-down of xenophobic, divisive, misleading guff designed to appeal to the base elements of the leave argument.

 

We need an election and we need rid of the swivel-eyes in the Tory party.

 

Unfortunately, the alternative is also pretty swivel-eyed.

 

We need a cross-party government and a further vote on Brexit.

 

I agree entirely. The Daily Mail will undoubtedly dust off their Hitler inspired headline of the judges being the "enemies of the people".

 

How on earth do we get the cross party government that we so desperately need??

[Sheaf Saint]

This is extremely significant but I worry about how the loony fringe will react to this. I predict a doubling-down of xenophobic, divisive, misleading guff designed to appeal to the base elements of the leave argument.

 

We need an election and we need rid of the swivel-eyes in the Tory party.

 

Unfortunately, the alternative is also pretty swivel-eyed.

 

We need a cross-party government and a further vote on Brexit.

 

I agree with you on all points here. We have a non-functioning government and a completely ineffectual opposition to replace them. What we actually need is not just a fresh GE, but a complete, top-down reorganisation of our political system, to ensure that this kind of f*ckery never happens again.

 

Maybe it's time to merge all of these threads and re-name it "The absolute f*cking state of British politics".

[Manuel]

Boris should try the European Court of Justice, see if he can get this judgement overturned.

[benjii]

I don't think this is something the ECJ can rule on, no matter how funny that would be. This is nothing to do with application of EU law.

[Saint-Armstrong]

This is extremely significant but I worry about how the loony fringe will react to this. I predict a doubling-down of xenophobic, divisive, misleading guff designed to appeal to the base elements of the leave argument.

 

We need an election and we need rid of the swivel-eyes in the Tory party.

 

Unfortunately, the alternative is also pretty swivel-eyed.

 

We need a cross-party government and a further vote on Brexit.

 

It has already begun:

[Saint-Armstrong]

It has already begun:

 

Wrong link!

 

I meant this one: https://twitter.com/MarkDiStef/status/1176442040885944320

[Unbelievable Jeff]

So it's all unraveling for Boris then. First the EU tell him what everybody else already knew - that there is no better deal to be done that the one already negotiated with May - and now the prorogation that he instigated in order to try and force through a no-deal exit has been ruled unlawful.

 

I wonder if he will appeal this decision to the ECJ now? That would be the most delicious irony if he did.

 

Ish - ECJ is not attached to the EU and would still be the highest court after we leave the EU.

[Manuel]

I don't think this is something the ECJ can rule on, no matter how funny that would be. This is nothing to do with application of EU law.

Shame. Would have been funny.

[Sheaf Saint]

Ish - ECJ is not attached to the EU and would still be the highest court after we leave the EU.

 

Are you sure about that?

 

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/european_government/eu_institutions/european_court_of_justice.html

 

The European Court of Justice (ECJ) is the judicial institution of the European Union. This means that it deals with disputes between parties as the courts do in Ireland. The ECJ has the important function of ensuring that European law is interpreted and applied in the same way in every member state. It sits in Luxembourg and is composed of 28 judges, one judge from each member state.

 

For clarity - I accept that my comment was flippant, as I'm aware that this morning's Supreme Court ruling is not something that can be challenged in the ECJ.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Are you sure about that?

 

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/european_government/eu_institutions/european_court_of_justice.html

 

 

 

For clarity - I accept that my comment was flippant, as I'm aware that this morning's Supreme Court ruling is not something that can be challenged in the ECJ.

 

Do you know what, this is my bad, I was thinking of ECHR.

[rallyboy]

The No Deal dream team of Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson just lost 11-0.

It seems that the hedge funds and US healthcare corporations backed the Chuckle Brothers.

 

As for Johnson, this is not news, he's been lying all his life - this is the first time someone has bothered to take him to the supreme court.

[aintforever]

This is extremely significant but I worry about how the loony fringe will react to this. I predict a doubling-down of xenophobic, divisive, misleading guff designed to appeal to the base elements of the leave argument.

 

We need an election and we need rid of the swivel-eyes in the Tory party.

 

Unfortunately, the alternative is also pretty swivel-eyed.

 

We need a cross-party government and a further vote on Brexit.

 

This.

[sadoldgit]

The only was today will get better is for us to put 8 passed the Skates tonight.

[saint1977]

The old Leave consortium splintering instantly - Farage and Tice both calling for Cummings to go and the latter saying that both Boris needs to go and Brexit delayed.

 

Leave.EU spewing out more far right bile I see. With the Labour conference getting so silly, a Clarke/Harman coaltion would be a good idea for a while until the GE as an national emergency whilst the Tories and Labour recover from being drunk at the wheel and can start to kick out their entryists and clean up their acts, electing new leaders. There will be some more sensible Brexiteers that can come on board for the interim.

 

GE in Nov, if that's when it is, is going to make the football tonight look like high tea by comparison.

[buctootim]

My © solution to the Brexit impasse. A binding referendum with the choices 'leave with no deal' and 'remain'. If there is a 60:40 majority or more for either one that is what we do. If it is less we adopt May's deal.

 

Any resolution is better than the progressive breakdown we're seeing.

[aintforever]

There just needs to be a simple binding referendum with whatever deal Boris can come up with (or if he chooses, no deal) and remain.

 

Boris was the main Brexit cheerleader, they told us it would be the easiest deal on history - get the deal and let us decide.

[buctootim]

There just needs to be a simple binding referendum with whatever deal Boris can come up with (or if he chooses, no deal) and remain.

 

Boris was the main Brexit cheerleader, they told us it would be the easiest deal on history - get the deal and let us decide.

 

Trouble with that is, its likely to be close. Another 52:48 wouldn't move us any further forward.

[aintforever]

Trouble with that is, its likely to be close. Another 52:48 wouldn't move us any further forward.

 

It would, you get Parliament to agree on the deal subject to a legally binding vote and if we vote to leave it wouldn’t have to go through Parliament again.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

As we've noticed, a lot of Brexit voters seem to be doubling down on their votes for fear of being labelled as "conned", so I was wondering if over the next few weeks Parliament were able to pass a motion into law that only leave voters are not able to claim hardship benefits if it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that the main contributor to the hardship was leaving the EU. We could also look at increasing the taxes of Brexiteers if there is a need for extra tax revenue, again, due to Brexit.

Conversely, if by some amazing stroke of luck, we do better, then they can benefit from lower taxes and better benefits.

 

At least this way it will make voters more responsible for their votes.

[scally]

As we've noticed, a lot of Brexit voters seem to be doubling down on their votes for fear of being labelled as "conned", so I was wondering if over the next few weeks Parliament were able to pass a motion into law that only leave voters are not able to claim hardship benefits if it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that the main contributor to the hardship was leaving the EU. We could also look at increasing the taxes of Brexiteers if there is a need for extra tax revenue, again, due to Brexit.

Conversely, if by some amazing stroke of luck, we do better, then they can benefit from lower taxes and better benefits.

 

At least this way it will make voters more responsible for their votes.

 

Are you for real?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Are you for real?

 

Well, why not?

[norwaysaint]

What alternatives do people imagine being on any future referendum?

 

Leave or Remain again? The problem there is that many people want leave, but not if it means no deal or the wrong deal, including Boris. So that doesn't really work as leave doesn't just mean leave. We've already discovered just how divided the leave side are on this issue.

 

Leave with a deal

leave with no deal

remain?

 

That doesn't work either, because the biggest single group would be remain, despite maybe over half wanting to leave altogether.

 

After that it just starts to become problematically complicated with preferred and second choices or conditions.

 

What would you want the alternatives to be?

[badgerx16]

Michael Gove in Parliament yesterday;

"The automotive sector, who I met this week, confirmed that they were ready,"

 

Representatives of the automotive sector, present at the meeting;

"I was at the meeting. There's no way that is the message he could have gone away with,"

"No! We said we are planning as best we can, but cannot prepare for all eventualities and tariffs alone undermine our viability. We want a deal. No deal is not an option. Catastrophic."

And a briefing note reports "leaving without a deal is the worst possible outcome".

 

 

Reminds me of when I was working on a national IT networking project, and at one meeting 3 aides to a Labour minister attended to verify details to be included in a speech the minister was giving that afternoon. The aides listed the 4 key points, all of which, the project team asserted to them, were wrong.

The speech went ahead without correction.

Edited 26 September, 2019 by badgerx16

[Unbelievable Jeff]

What alternatives do people imagine being on any future referendum?

 

Leave or Remain again? The problem there is that many people want leave, but not if it means no deal or the wrong deal, including Boris. So that doesn't really work as leave doesn't just mean leave. We've already discovered just how divided the leave side are on this issue.

 

Leave with a deal

leave with no deal

remain?

 

That doesn't work either, because the biggest single group would be remain, despite maybe over half wanting to leave altogether.

 

After that it just starts to become problematically complicated with preferred and second choices or conditions.

 

What would you want the alternatives to be?

 

No deal was been taken off the table, so it should just be "Leave with deal" or "Remain".

[aintforever]

What alternatives do people imagine being on any future referendum?

 

Leave or Remain again? The problem there is that many people want leave, but not if it means no deal or the wrong deal, including Boris. So that doesn't really work as leave doesn't just mean leave. We've already discovered just how divided the leave side are on this issue.

 

Leave with a deal

leave with no deal

remain?

 

That doesn't work either, because the biggest single group would be remain, despite maybe over half wanting to leave altogether.

 

After that it just starts to become problematically complicated with preferred and second choices or conditions.

 

What would you want the alternatives to be?

 

Surely as Boris was the main Brexit cheerleader he knows what leave means, and we are kept being told leavers knew what they were voting for.

 

So it's quite simple, whatever leave Boris comes up with vs remain.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Surely as Boris was the main Brexit cheerleader he knows what leave means, and we are kept being told leavers knew what they were voting for.

 

So it's quite simple, whatever leave Boris comes up with vs remain.

 

I think the funniest thing is how will he deal with the campaign for a General Election. Will he go for "Deal" or "No Deal"?

[aintforever]

I think the funniest thing is how will he deal with the campaign for a General Election. Will he go for "Deal" or "No Deal"?

 

It will be interesting to see what deal he comes back with, my guess that he won't get anything substantially different to May's which is why he is so desperate for a GE before October 31st.

[badgerx16]

No deal was been taken off the table.....,...

 

I am certain that Cummins et al are currently cooking up another of their cunning schemes to try to find a way around the Benn Act, and force no-deal on Halloween.

[Tamesaint]

I am certain that Cummins et al are currently cooking up another of their cunning schemes to try to find a way around the Benn Act, and force no-deal on Halloween.

 

He has to wrote a letter to the EU asking for an extension. He can do that but then also write another letter saying ignore the first one and dont give us any extension.

[OldNick]

I am certain that Cummins et al are currently cooking up another of their cunning schemes to try to find a way around the Benn Act, and force no-deal on Halloween.

I dont understand why people are so keen to take no -deal off the table. By doing so we are hamstringing our negotiators. Im fairly sure that it is something BJ and co dont want but the Europeans were delighted that it looks to have failed. They were worried about it and now can sit back and say 'you cant have a better deal' They had moved a tad but now they can see our lily livered MP's helping give us a bad deal and can be relaxed that they are again holding the Aces n the pack. Stupid nation voted out and now our stupid politicians are handing the initiative to our opponents

I voted remain but am disgusted that the majority at the vote have not had their wishes acted on.

[Tamesaint]

I dont understand why people are so keen to take no -deal off the table. By doing so we are hamstringing our negotiators. Im fairly sure that it is something BJ and co dont want but the Europeans were delighted that it looks to have failed. They were worried about it and now can sit back and say 'you cant have a better deal' They had moved a tad but now they can see our lily livered MP's helping give us a bad deal and can be relaxed that they are again holding the Aces n the pack. Stupid nation voted out and now our stupid politicians are handing the initiative to our opponents

I voted remain but am disgusted that the majority at the vote have not had their wishes acted on.

 

You really think that Johnson's bunch are trying to negotiate a deal. Really???

[aintforever]

I dont understand why people are so keen to take no -deal off the table. By doing so we are hamstringing our negotiators. Im fairly sure that it is something BJ and co dont want but the Europeans were delighted that it looks to have failed. They were worried about it and now can sit back and say 'you cant have a better deal' They had moved a tad but now they can see our lily livered MP's helping give us a bad deal and can be relaxed that they are again holding the Aces n the pack. Stupid nation voted out and now our stupid politicians are handing the initiative to our opponents

I voted remain but am disgusted that the majority at the vote have not had their wishes acted on.

 

Do you really think the threat of no-deal made that much difference? The EU know that no deal would be much worse for us than it would for them, and more importantly they know that we know that. They know it's only "on the table" to act as a threat not because we actually want it to happen. It's a blazing saddles, don't move or I will shoot myself in the head, situation.

[doddisalegend]

I dont understand why people are so keen to take no -deal off the table. By doing so we are hamstringing our negotiators. Im fairly sure that it is something BJ and co dont want but the Europeans were delighted that it looks to have failed. They were worried about it and now can sit back and say 'you cant have a better deal' They had moved a tad but now they can see our lily livered MP's helping give us a bad deal and can be relaxed that they are again holding the Aces n the pack. Stupid nation voted out and now our stupid politicians are handing the initiative to our opponents

I voted remain but am disgusted that the majority at the vote have not had their wishes acted on.

 

Parliament taking no deal off Boris is like a responsible adult taking a pair of sharp scissors off a toddler.

 

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[egg]

No deal was been taken off the table, so it should just be "Leave with deal" or "Remain".

 

Thing is it hasn't, it's still the default position. Plus, many brexiteers will have you believe that they voted to leave deal or no deal. I find that hard to believe but the point should be tested. I voted leave, but no way did I want or anticipate a no deal car crash. Any further public vote should be on the best / final eu deal on the table that Parliament would endorse if the public do, or leave with no deal, or remain. All subject to a simple majority and on the basis that leaving is within a short finite period, say 3 months.

[shurlock]

I dont understand why people are so keen to take no -deal off the table. By doing so we are hamstringing our negotiators.Im fairly sure that it is something BJ and co dont want but the Europeans were delighted that it looks to have failed. They were worried about it and now can sit back and say 'you cant have a better deal' They had moved a tad but now they can see our lily livered MP's helping give us a bad deal and can be relaxed that they are again holding the Aces n the pack. Stupid nation voted out and now our stupid politicians are handing the initiative to our opponents

I voted remain but am disgusted that the majority at the vote have not had their wishes acted on.

 

Binge-watching the Apprentice again Nick?

[Baird of the land]

I really can't fathom people who think keeping no deal on the table in a negotiating plus. Threatening to do much more damage to your own economy than theirs is hardly going to make them lose sight of the importance of retaining a viable solution to the open Irish border in any potential deal.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Thing is it hasn't, it's still the default position. Plus, many brexiteers will have you believe that they voted to leave deal or no deal. I find that hard to believe but the point should be tested. I voted leave, but no way did I want or anticipate a no deal car crash. Any further public vote should be on the best / final eu deal on the table that Parliament would endorse if the public do, or leave with no deal, or remain. All subject to a simple majority and on the basis that leaving is within a short finite period, say 3 months.

 

I was being sarcastic tbf - **** knows what will happen. All I know is there are divides in this country that will never be healed.

[shurlock]

Jess phillips receiving death threats directly quoting the PM and now her office on lockdown; lawyers involved in the Supreme Court prorogation case forced to wear stabproof vests.

 

Those leftie extremists sure do get around a fair bit

 

#bothsides

Edited 26 September, 2019 by shurlock

[rallyboy]

The PR plan is so transparent.

Cummings has workshopped expressions and told Boris and his loyal puppet army to chuck in the words surrender, traitor, chickens running away from the voters etc at every opportunity, to build a fake message.

It's strong and stable all over again - and the dim are lapping it up.

Meanwhile people are getting death threats, and chaos reigns.

The type of chaos that hedge funds love....

[shurlock]

The PR plan is so transparent.

Cummings has workshopped expressions and told Boris and his loyal puppet army to chuck in the words surrender, traitor, chickens running away from the voters etc at every opportunity, to build a fake message.

It's strong and stable all over again - and the dim are lapping it up.

Meanwhile people are getting death threats, and chaos reigns.

The type of chaos that hedge funds love....

 

They’re not even attempting to hide it. There’s nothing novel or clever about it; you just have to look at the discourse and language on here over the last three years to see what sells.

Edited 26 September, 2019 by shurlock

[Shroppie]

The opposition parties are apparently discussing ways of making the Benn Bill watertight.

 

It's clear Johnson and Cummings are convinced they can find a loophole. They haven't forced a no confidence vote or got through a FTPA vote but they could be extreme enough to meet the requirement to ask for an extension but then refuse it or use an Order of Council to postpone the Act's implementation - as John Major points out, this could be done by Cabinet without even Royal Assent, but would provoke a massive ****storm.

 

If they're serious about stopping this, the opposition parties have to do something that they don't seem capable of doing. Call a vote of no confidence with an agreed interim PM to lead a temporary government to secure the extension. Corbyn is the big stumbling block to this.

 

And even this might not work. Johnson could lose a confidence vote but refuse to resign.

 

This is bad now but it's going to get a whole lot worse as 31st Oct approaches. Failure for Johnson could spell the end of the Tory Party, and with stakes that high, he'll do anything.

 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[badgerx16]

Using an Order of Council to amend or impact on Primary legislation would be one hell of a stretch. They are used to amend bylaws and institutionl regulations, such as -

https://privycouncil.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/8.-August-2019.pdf

[Shroppie]

Using an Order of Council to amend or impact on Primary legislation would be one hell of a stretch. They are used to amend bylaws and institutionl regulations, such as -

https://privycouncil.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/8.-August-2019.pdf

I agree. It would be excessive, anti-democratic and utterly inappropriate.

 

But, for a would-be dictator fighting for the survival of his party and his own glory, who's said "do or die" and "rather be dead in a ditch than ask for an extension", backed into a corner with no other options? Nothing would surprise me.

 

He's a pathological liar. He's lied to the people, parliament and even the queen. He never considers anything he does to be wrong, never apologises, never backs down, his reaction to being caught out is (to use the revolting Americanism) to double down and attack. He's a bully who can't conceive of not getting his own way. He's utterly disdainful of anyone challenging or contradicting him, without ever answering the challenges. His reaction to a defeat is to deny it's a defeat, ridicule those responsible for his defeat, ignore it and plough on.

 

He is a very dangerous man, especially with Cummings behind him.

 

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[norwaysaint]

It needs to be pointed out more that Brexit would have been done and over with last March, if people like Boris Johnson hadn't blocked it for their own political point scoring. The deal would have passed through, it would have been right on schedule. The deal isn't great, but "leave means leave and the government should respect the voice of the people". But for some reason, leave didn't mean leave and it was okay to block Brexit going ahead when it was Boris doing it and playing politics.

 

People need to be reminded why Brexit has been delayed so much and who was behind it.

[badgerx16]

....... The deal would have passed through, it would have been right on schedule. The deal isn't great, but "leave means leave and the government should respect the voice of the people".

What is often conveniently overlooked is that the Withdrawal Agreement, ( the 'deal' ), is only a halfway house whilst the final trade agreement and other relationships with the EU are negotiated. Whether you think it is a good or bad deal, is is a path of transition, that prevents a dead fall off the cliff of no-deal. Unravelling 40 years of increasingly tightly bound integration was never going to be a simple overnight process.

 

And I have found something on which I agree with Dominic Cummings - Article 50 should have been delayed.

Edited 27 September, 2019 by badgerx16