Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Weston Super Saint]

Agree with posts 13858-61.

And yes, UJ is right, we need to set an approval level to leave, be it 55% or 67% etc. Otherwise, maintain the status quo.

 

What about 51%, that's a majority isn't it? How about 50.01%, not huge, but still a majority?

 

SO many questions, so few answers, surely the MOST democratic thing would be to put it to the people, let them decide if there should be another referendum, then, if they say yes, have another vote to determine the majority percentage. It's not like we've had many trips to the polling station in recent years!

[shurlock]

I definitely should have taken heed of the 'enter at your own risk' part of the thread title.

 

Les is like a s**t Medusa with his exasperating mediocrity and pigheadedness. You know you’re above it but he still manages to rope you into the most barren and futile of conversations. It’s quite a talent really.

[Wes Tender]

Les having a torrid tuesday.

 

Your usual MO. A few curt words designed to puff yourself up, taking no more than a few moments to type and adding little else. Well done, mate. You're so clever.

[Wes Tender]

 

If you have endured the EU for over 40 years (what exactly have we 'endured' though? I've long thought the issues of this country are to do with our own government decisions rather than the EU...) then that suggests you are close to (or in) retirement and therefore aren't facing the challenge of building a career or bringing up a family. In some ways, I guess that's a win for you, so well done.

 

As you're obviously too young to have lived through the situation since we joined, then you aren't really in a position to be critical of my choice of adjective to describe my own thoughts on it. Sheaf Saint seems to consider that "enduring" is alarmist phraseology, which is ridiculously shrill and worthy of contempt. I'll put it into another context to try and make the meaning clearer. I have also had to endure over three years of incompetence by May in her negotiations with the EU. Most of the Brexiteers have had to endure it too, to the extent that they are thoroughly fed up with most politicians and just want to get it done.

 

Yes, I am of or past retirement age, but as you know nothing about me or my family, it is pointless making assumptions about what will or will not affect me or them. Am I not allowed to wish the best for the careers of my children and their children?

[shurlock]

As you're obviously too young to have lived through the situation since we joined, then you aren't really in a position to be critical of my choice of adjective to describe my own thoughts on it. Sheaf Saint seems to consider that "enduring" is alarmist phraseology, which is ridiculously shrill and worthy of contempt. I'll put it into another context to try and make the meaning clearer. I have also had to endure over three years of incompetence by May in her negotiations with the EU. Most of the Brexiteers have had to endure it too, to the extent that they are thoroughly fed up with most politicians and just want to get it done.

 

Yes, I am of or past retirement age, but as you know nothing about me or my family, it is pointless making assumptions about what will or will not affect me or them. Am I not allowed to wish the best for the careers of my children and their children?

 

Are your kids embarrassed of your views Les? Do they know the utter s**te you post on here? It wouldn’t be the first time it’s happened.

[Shroppie]

Wouldn't surprise me to see someone come up with a website that tells people exactly what party to get behind in each constituency if they want to see either a second referendum or article 50 revoked. If remainers can club together and treat it as a single issue election then that scuppers Boris to an extent (if he's still having problems with Brexit party anyway). Wouldn't even need the explicit support of the individual party leaders to work either.

It's already happening.

 

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[shurlock]

Phil Hogan has been made the new EU trade commissioner. A bit cheeky bantz from the EU there.

[Shroppie]

Your usual MO. A few curt words designed to puff yourself up, taking no more than a few moments to type and adding little else. Well done, mate. You're so clever.

But he's right you're having a torrid time. A lot of sensible, logical consensus on here today regarding the futility of a GE, invalidity of the last referendum given evidence of lying at the time and new knowledge of the practical difficulties of leaving, clearly argued. And no effective response - just the usual slogans and irrational outpourings.

 

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[Sheaf Saint]

Sheaf Saint seems to consider that "enduring" is alarmist phraseology, which is ridiculously shrill and worthy of contempt.

 

When you use the word 'endure' to describe life as an EU citizen, you make it sound like it has been a massive hardship. Yet our membership has been overwhelmingly beneficial in just about all areas of life.

 

Our economy has benefited hugely from being part of the trading bloc. Our natural environment has been protected by EU directives that you can bet your life successive Tory governments would have ripped up if they could have. Our society has been enhanced by things like workers rights which we now take for granted.

 

So when you choose words like 'endure' to describe all that, you are making a ridiculous over-exaggeration which completely misrepresents the reality of the situation. Therefore, 'alarmist' is an accurate way of describing your choice of language.

Edited 10 September, 2019 by Sheaf Saint

[mrfahaji]

As you're obviously too young to have lived through the situation since we joined, then you aren't really in a position to be critical of my choice of adjective to describe my own thoughts on it. Sheaf Saint seems to consider that "enduring" is alarmist phraseology, which is ridiculously shrill and worthy of contempt. I'll put it into another context to try and make the meaning clearer. I have also had to endure over three years of incompetence by May in her negotiations with the EU. Most of the Brexiteers have had to endure it too, to the extent that they are thoroughly fed up with most politicians and just want to get it done.

 

Yes, I am of or past retirement age, but as you know nothing about me or my family, it is pointless making assumptions about what will or will not affect me or them. Am I not allowed to wish the best for the careers of my children and their children?

 

I’ve been working for 15 years, so perhaps I missed the bad years... but if the last 15 years have been good that’s more relevant, right?

 

I understand the feeling that the government messed up the negotiations, but they did, not sure how that can be rescued or changed now.

[saint1977]

When you use the word 'endure' to describe life as an EU citizen, you make it sound like it has been a massive hardship. Yet our membership has been overwhelmingly beneficial in just about all areas of life.

 

Our economy has benefited hugely from being part of the trading bloc. Our natural environment has been protected by EU directives that you can bet your life successive Tory governments would have ripped up if they could have. Our society has been enhanced by things like workers rights which we now take for granted.

 

So when you choose words like 'endure' to describe all that, you are making a ridiculous over-exaggeration which completely misrepresents the reality of the situation. Therefore, 'alarmist' is an accurate way of describing your choice of language.

 

We should have had you as Remain’s Campaign Director, would have wiped the floor with Cummings and co. Miles better to state the positives than Project Fear. The lies on the NHS would have taken plenty in still but forearmed is forewarned and a big vulnerable point for Boris now in a future election in relation to any kind of trust and credibility.

[sadoldgit]

As you're obviously too young to have lived through the situation since we joined, then you aren't really in a position to be critical of my choice of adjective to describe my own thoughts on it. Sheaf Saint seems to consider that "enduring" is alarmist phraseology, which is ridiculously shrill and worthy of contempt. I'll put it into another context to try and make the meaning clearer. I have also had to endure over three years of incompetence by May in her negotiations with the EU. Most of the Brexiteers have had to endure it too, to the extent that they are thoroughly fed up with most politicians and just want to get it done.

 

Yes, I am of or past retirement age, but as you know nothing about me or my family, it is pointless making assumptions about what will or will not affect me or them. Am I not allowed to wish the best for the careers of my children and their children?

 

Wes, if life was so awful it was “endured” in the EU years, why weren’t there mass rallies calling for an exit every week? I can’t recall public unrest along the lines of the poll tax riots.

[badgerx16]

Wes, if life was so awful it was “endured” in the EU years, why weren’t there mass rallies calling for an exit every week? I can’t recall public unrest along the lines of the poll tax riots.

I get the impression that most of Wes' life has involved 'enduring' one oppressive burden or another.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I get the impression that most of Wes' life has involved 'enduring' one oppressive burden or another.

 

The reason Wes wants to leave has been mooted many a time on this thread. It has nothing to do with what's best for his kids (clearly, as he wants to leave with no deal), but more to do with the various people he sees walking the streets of good old blighty.

[buctootim]

Wes must be delighted about foreign students being allowed to stay after graduation and the record numbers of migrants across the channel. Taking back control

[doddisalegend]

The reason Wes wants to leave has been mooted many a time on this thread. It has nothing to do with what's best for his kids (clearly, as he wants to leave with no deal), but more to do with the various people he sees walking the streets of good old blighty.

I thought Wes told me on this thread his grandmother's family were Italian immigrants given that surely he has no problem with immigration to this country from Europe?

 

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[Wes Tender]

Brexit - enter at your own risk. How appropriate. Angry remoaners dominate the thread, shouting down any opinion on Brexit that runs counter to their side's agenda to thwart the democratic majority in the referendum. Most of the other brexiteers on here are just fed-up with the constant childish abuse, so they just can't be arsed any longer to post their opinions.

 

Just look at yourselves. Just for using the adjective "endure" to describe my opinion of how I felt about the EU since Maastricht, I get all this abuse. It seems that Soggy and Sheaf Saint ought to consult a dictionary before assuming that I meant it to mean that it caused me great hardship, or to wonder why the citizens of the UK who felt the same didn't riot in the streets. Ridiculous and worthy of contempt. Shurlock his usual obnoxious, juvenile self, sinking to Jeff's depths, making it personal with assumptions about my family. I won't plumb those depths by retaliating in that vein. Jeff is on ignore, so he is p*ssing in the wind as far as I'm concerned.

 

Anyway, all those leavers who have left this thread and the other ones concerning Brexit, I am joining them. Talk among yourselves. I can just have the occasional look in and have a good laugh at all of you in your little echo chamber.

[shurlock]

Brexit - enter at your own risk. How appropriate. Angry remoaners dominate the thread, shouting down any opinion on Brexit that runs counter to their side's agenda to thwart the democratic majority in the referendum. Most of the other brexiteers on here are just fed-up with the constant childish abuse, so they just can't be arsed any longer to post their opinions.

 

Just look at yourselves. Just for using the adjective "endure" to describe my opinion of how I felt about the EU since Maastricht, I get all this abuse. It seems that Soggy and Sheaf Saint ought to consult a dictionary before assuming that I meant it to mean that it caused me great hardship, or to wonder why the citizens of the UK who felt the same didn't riot in the streets. Ridiculous and worthy of contempt. Shurlock his usual obnoxious, juvenile self, sinking to Jeff's depths, making it personal with assumptions about my family. I won't plumb those depths by retaliating in that vein. Jeff is on ignore, so he is p*ssing in the wind as far as I'm concerned.

 

Anyway, all those leavers who have left this thread and the other ones concerning Brexit, I am joining them. Talk among yourselves. I can just have the occasional look in and have a good laugh at all of you in your little echo chamber.

 

Morning Les. It’s a fact that there’s a generational divide to Brexit and parents and children take very different positions over it, so I was simply asking about your situation (after you claimed your support for Brexit was #allaboutthekids). No more no less.

 

Try not to let torrid Tuesday turn into wretched Wednesday pal

[Shroppie]

Just one point. Democracy means being able to reconsider. It is ridiculous to regard the referendum result as a perfect, never to be reconsidered measure of opinion.

 

Situations change. Facts (and lies) come to light and these quite naturally change views. What was said and promised three years ago has been torn apart.

 

We have a GE every 5 years (or 5 minutes the way things are going). We don't say you voted 5 years ago and it would be undemocratic to challenge that.

 

And for the record on the generational thing, I'm an enlightened 70 year-old.

 

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[shurlock]

Just one point. Democracy means being able to reconsider. It is ridiculous to regard the referendum result as a perfect, never to be reconsidered measure of opinion.

 

Situations change. Facts (and lies) come to light and these quite naturally change views. What was said and promised three years ago has been torn apart.

 

We have a GE every 5 years (or 5 minutes the way things are going). We don't say you voted 5 years ago and it would be undemocratic to challenge that.

 

And for the record on the generational thing, I'm an enlightened 70 year-old.

 

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I didn't mean everyone Shroppie

[badgerx16]

Boris Johnson’s suspension of the UK Parliament is unlawful, Scotland’s highest civil court has ruled.

"The Court will accordingly make an Order declaring that the Prime Minister's advice to HM the Queen and the prorogation which followed thereon was unlawful and is thus null and of no effect."

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855

Edited 11 September, 2019 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

Brexit - enter at your own risk. How appropriate. Angry remoaners dominate the thread, shouting down any opinion on Brexit that runs counter to their side's agenda to thwart the democratic majority in the referendum. Most of the other brexiteers on here are just fed-up with the constant childish abuse, so they just can't be arsed any longer to post their opinions.

Do you read any of the posts from GM or Duckie, or for that matter most of those that you present ? Could it be that the Remainers might just be winning the debate ?

[norwaysaint]

Yes it is. Democratic is honouring the first referendum vote before calling for a second one. HTH

 

Would have already happened if all the Tories and other brexiters including Boris had got behind the withdrawal deal from the start.

 

Why didn't he? Why didn't they? Brexit would be done. He didn't believe in Brexit whatever the cost then, he blocked brexit twice.

[Shroppie]

Boris Johnson’s suspension of the UK Parliament is unlawful, Scotland’s highest civil court has ruled.

"The Court will accordingly make an Order declaring that the Prime Minister's advice to HM the Queen and the prorogation which followed thereon was unlawful and is thus null and of no effect."

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855

Will probably be overturned in the Supreme Court and I doubt the English action will succeed, as I imagine BJ has more friends amongst the judiciary south of the border.

 

But highly amusing and satisfactory. I would love to see the opposition parties and Speaker reopen parliament and pass lots of really good laws in the next few days.[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

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[Shroppie]

It's now being suggested that if, as the judgement agrees, Johnson misled (or even lied to) the Queen about the reason for prorogation, it's a resigning matter, and possibly treason.

 

I bet Queenie is very, very cross.

 

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[Guided Missile]

The Sun was right...

 

[badgerx16]

Will probably be overturned in the Supreme Court and I doubt the English action will succeed, as I imagine BJ has more friends amongst the judiciary south of the border.

 

But highly amusing and satisfactory. I would love to see the opposition parties and Speaker reopen parliament and pass lots of really good laws in the next few days.[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

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Opposition MPs are meeting at Church House, which is also where an "alternative Parliament" was proposed during a recess in the run up to Blair's Iraq war, and which then forced a recall of MPs to Westminster.

Edited 11 September, 2019 by badgerx16

[shurlock]

The Sun was right...

 

Another grooming victim.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

The Sun was right...

 

 

My God, reading that is just scary isn't it?

[Sheaf Saint]

Opposition MPs are meeting at Church House, which is also where an "alternative Parliament" was proposed during a recess in the run up to Blair's Iraq war, and which then forced a recall of MPs to Westminster.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49660689

[badgerx16]

The Sun was right...

 

What a load of xenophobic, reactionary, historically inaccurate, ball-locks.

Edited 11 September, 2019 by badgerx16

[doddisalegend]

What a load of xenophobic, reactionary, historically inaccurate, ball-locks.

Yet plenty of leavers have been lapping that **** up for years, from the red tops, and take it all as gospel.

 

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[shurlock]

What a load of xenophobic, reactionary, historically inaccurate, ball-locks.

 

Do you seriously think the likes of John ever had a closely-argued, evidence-based argument for leaving the EU? This is a useful reminder that for many Brexit was never about the facts.

[Sheaf Saint]

Do you seriously think the likes of John ever had a closely-argued, evidence-based argument for leaving the EU? This is a useful reminder that for many Brexit was never about the facts.

 

Of course it wasn't.

 

If you take the outright xenophobia and anti-immigrant emotion that the likes of Farage deliberately appealed to out of the equation, remain would have won the referendum by a landslide.

[OldNick]

The Sun was right. lol

[Danbert]

As you're obviously too young to have lived through the situation since we joined, then you aren't really in a position to be critical of my choice of adjective to describe my own thoughts on it. Sheaf Saint seems to consider that "enduring" is alarmist phraseology, which is ridiculously shrill and worthy of contempt. I'll put it into another context to try and make the meaning clearer. I have also had to endure over three years of incompetence by May in her negotiations with the EU. Most of the Brexiteers have had to endure it too, to the extent that they are thoroughly fed up with most politicians and just want to get it done.

 

Yes, I am of or past retirement age, but as you know nothing about me or my family, it is pointless making assumptions about what will or will not affect me or them. Am I not allowed to wish the best for the careers of my children and their children?

 

Can you give just one concrete example of how the EU tyranny has ruined your life?

[mrfahaji]

My God, reading that is just scary isn't it?

 

Yep, at first it's almost funny, and then you realise that there were and still are people who think that way and in those terms.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Yep, at first it's almost funny, and then you realise that there were and still are people who think that way and in those terms.

 

52% of the population apparently...

[buctootim]

Von der Leyen ruling put creation of any EU army. Another Brexit shibboleth falls. Tell me again, when is Turkey joining?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

So No. 10 has ruled out an election pact with the Brexit party.

 

I assume it means Wes, LD and GM will now be voting for the Brexit party to give them their "No deal" Brexit.

[Weston Super Saint]

Would have already happened if all the Tories and other brexiters including Boris had got behind the withdrawal deal from the start.

 

Why didn't he? Why didn't they? Brexit would be done. He didn't believe in Brexit whatever the cost then, he blocked brexit twice.

 

Because, as the Prime Minister of the time clearly stated, 'No Deal is better than a bad deal'. I guess they decided that the only deal on the table was a bad deal. Besides, didn't the Prime Minister at the time have at least three attempts to get a better deal and failed miserably each time - potentially due to hands being tied having had the 'no deal' option taken off the table....

 

One thing's for sure, there's not a person on the planet that could have predicted the events of the last three years - despite the fact that many on this thread claim they can!

[hypochondriac]

So No. 10 has ruled out an election pact with the Brexit party.

 

I assume it means Wes, LD and GM will now be voting for the Brexit party to give them their "No deal" Brexit.

If the tories are the largest party but without a majority then they will change their tune pretty quick if the brexit party become kingmakers.

[mrfahaji]

Because, as the Prime Minister of the time clearly stated, 'No Deal is better than a bad deal'. I guess they decided that the only deal on the table was a bad deal. Besides, didn't the Prime Minister at the time have at least three attempts to get a better deal and failed miserably each time - potentially due to hands being tied having had the 'no deal' option taken off the table....

 

One thing's for sure, there's not a person on the planet that could have predicted the events of the last three years - despite the fact that many on this thread claim they can!

 

Not sure if that's sarcasm... but a lot of the criticism - and probably the reason Remain lost - before the referendum was that of 'project fear', which if nothing else was warnings that this kind of thing could happen! One thing that seemed pretty obvious to me was that the EU wouldn't allow us to leave with a great deal, despite claims from Brexiteers that "they'd only hurt themselves". Purely from a political point of view, if they allowed UK to leave and cherry pick what parts of the arrangement they liked, then everyone would do that!

[Unbelievable Jeff]

If the tories are the largest party but without a majority then they will change their tune pretty quick if the brexit party become kingmakers.

 

They won't as the Brexit party will take too many votes from them - that's where the danger is for the Tories.

[mrfahaji]

If the tories are the largest party but without a majority then they will change their tune pretty quick if the brexit party become kingmakers.

 

Which is a reflection of how we ended up in this mess in the first place, if you consider that the referendum was only really called to appease the more extreme in the Tory party and to prevent ending up in another coalition. It's pretty depressing, no matter which side of the fence you are, how the fate of our country is at the mercy of people putting their party, but in some cases (Corbyn!) not even their party, ahead of their country at this crucial time.

[norwaysaint]

Because, as the Prime Minister of the time clearly stated, 'No Deal is better than a bad deal'. I guess they decided that the only deal on the table was a bad deal. Besides, didn't the Prime Minister at the time have at least three attempts to get a better deal and failed miserably each time - potentially due to hands being tied having had the 'no deal' option taken off the table....

 

One thing's for sure, there's not a person on the planet that could have predicted the events of the last three years - despite the fact that many on this thread claim they can!

 

But the people voted for Brexit, they didn't vote for a good or bad deal, they just want out and they are being stopped by politicians, that's what I keep hearing. That was a way out. It got blocked because sometimes the Brexit option is unpalatable. Why is it okay to decide that it's okay to block the deal because it's a bad way to Brexit, but not okay to block no deal for the same reason?

It seems like the Brexit supporters falter between "leave by any way pøossible, no matter the cost, we'll manage" and "No, don't leave that way, it's too big a cost and we can't manage it"

 

If it's a case of "Just do it". They should accept the deal and just make it happen. like the majority voted for.

[badgerx16]

I know it's not an EU related decision, but is this indicative of the sort of European legal ruling that Brexiteers are opposed to ?

 

"A French company has been found liable for the death of an employee who had a cardiac arrest while having sex with a stranger on a business trip.

 

A Paris court ruled that his death was an industrial accident and that the family was entitled to compensation."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49662134

[benjii]

As has been noted, the people who voted for Brexit, generally:

 

- had specific vested interests (generally a small number of people)

 

- were semi-senile old duffers

 

- were uneducated and ignorant.

 

Them's the facts.

 

We can see some of them on this thread. In some posters, we have instances of overlap. We all know who they are.

 

Those people don't care if they're right. This is about getting a win. It's about:

 

- narcissism and self promotion;

 

- a curmudgeonly "up yours" to a generation and a world they increasingly don't understand (particularly ironic given that this group, through pure generational serendipity has had more to be thankful for than most);

 

- getting one over on the establishment and, for once, exercising some political influence; impotent losers waking up one day with a raging morning glory and waving it at the man who, unbeknownst to them, is planning to grease them up for the bumming of a lifetime.

Edited 11 September, 2019 by benjii

[aintforever]

So No. 10 has ruled out an election pact with the Brexit party.

 

Can’t see the Tories getting a majority if that is the case, they will lose too many votes to The Brexit party and Lib Dems.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Can’t see the Tories getting a majority if that is the case, they will lose too many votes to The Brexit party and Lib Dems.

 

Exactly