Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[shurlock]

Bercow's always one step ahead.

[badgerx16]

Bercow's always one step ahead.

Wes will be pleased.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Bercow's always one step ahead.

 

Going to miss the gnarly bastard.

[badgerx16]

Lindsay Hoyle as new speaker ? A Labour MP from Lancashire, couldn't do better.

[scally]

I get it now, none of these idiots knew what they were voting for and that Boris he's such a liar

 

 

Edited 9 September, 2019 by scally

[norwaysaint]

I get it now, none of these idiots knew what they were voting for

 

 

But Brexit isn't being blocked, Brexit with no deal is being blocked. Even Boris says no deal would be a failure.

 

Agreeing to something happening isn't the same as agreeing to anything that is suggested to make it happen. I would agree to improve roads near where I live. I wouldn't accept it if they banned everything but electric cars to make it happen.

[shurlock]

I get it now, none of these idiots knew what they were voting for and that Boris he's such a liar

 

 

 

Hello pal. Come to join the fun?

[Danbert]

So their negotiating strategy was to threaten the EU with No Deal, now their plan is for the EU to choose No Deal when given the choice.

 

lol

[scally]

But Brexit isn't being blocked, Brexit with no deal is being blocked. Even Boris says no deal would be a failure.

 

Agreeing to something happening isn't the same as agreeing to anything that is suggested to make it happen. I would agree to improve roads near where I live. I wouldn't accept it if they banned everything but electric cars to make it happen.

 

Be honest with yourself, Parliament has spent the last 3 years blocking Brexit,

[sadoldgit]

Perhaps if May had bothered to instigate cross party talks and involved all of Parliament from day 1 we wouldn’t be in such a mess now?

[saint1977]

Be honest with yourself, Parliament has spent the last 3 years blocking Brexit,

 

No it hasn't - they've had three opportunities to push the button on Brexit and almost all of them understand the consequences of not respecting the vote. The purists on the remainer but especially the ERG/Brexiteer group didn't want to compromise. There's plenty of people in the electorate who want it done who understand it, far less are passionate about a No Deal Brexit bar 75% of a small stub of 100k Tory members left and a smaller rump again of Brexit Party members. That's out of 17.4m that voted Leave and the 16-odd million who voted Remain who have an equal right to push for a Brexit which limits the damage to their industries and futures.

 

The bigger issue is what type of Brexit and that's what the deadlock is about. A GE is looking unikely to solve that as neither the Tories or Labour are capable of commanding a majority under FTTP because they have left far too much of their middle and moderate grounds behind, especially now Boris has lost Davidson in Scotland and Labour is still bedevilled by the Anti-Semitism saga.

 

I would envisage the LDs continuing their recovery taking some seats off both main parties although steady rather than spectacular. Not because Swinson is any great shakes, but she isn't the two main parties. If they went after a Norway or similar Brexit they would collect more Tory voters I suspect.

 

The polls at the weekend gave Boris a good lead but the data was focused about leave voters and remember, May had a twenty point lead over Steptoe at the start of the 2017 campaign. She might have been dull but she didn't have Boris's habit of imploding, as he's already shown under pressure.

 

A Norway Brexit is as much a Brexit as a No Deal, or Canada +++ even. The maths are that Norway has come far closer than anything else to passing in Parliament. The £350m and the NHS was a lie by Cummings anyway so paying a bit towards membership is hardly an electoral problem. We can then get on with a lot of neglected domestic agendas - social care, health, education, business, infrastructure, climate change, science.

 

The key to unlocking this is Boris dumping Dominic Cummings this week, having his own ideas, working out with Ireland how the backstop issue can be overcome and actually seeking some cooperation, because May left that far too late. Now what you have is a game of chess with the electorate, Ireland and EU as the pawns.

[badgerx16]

Perhaps if May had bothered to instigate cross party talks and involved all of Parliament from day 1 we wouldn’t be in such a mess now?

 

And hadn't called the 2017 election.

[scally]

No it hasn't - they've had three opportunities to push the button on Brexit and almost all of them understand the consequences of not respecting the vote. The purists on the remainer but especially the ERG/Brexiteer group didn't want to compromise. There's plenty of people in the electorate who want it done who understand it, far less are passionate about a No Deal Brexit bar 75% of a small stub of 100k Tory members left and a smaller rump again of Brexit Party members. That's out of 17.4m that voted Leave and the 16-odd million who voted Remain who have an equal right to push for a Brexit which limits the damage to their industries and futures.

 

The bigger issue is what type of Brexit and that's what the deadlock is about. A GE is looking unikely to solve that as neither the Tories or Labour are capable of commanding a majority under FTTP because they have left far too much of their middle and moderate grounds behind, especially now Boris has lost Davidson in Scotland and Labour is still bedevilled by the Anti-Semitism saga.

 

I would envisage the LDs continuing their recovery taking some seats off both main parties although steady rather than spectacular. Not because Swinson is any great shakes, but she isn't the two main parties. If they went after a Norway or similar Brexit they would collect more Tory voters I suspect.

 

The polls at the weekend gave Boris a good lead but the data was focused about leave voters and remember, May had a twenty point lead over Steptoe at the start of the 2017 campaign. She might have been dull but she didn't have Boris's habit of imploding, as he's already shown under pressure.

 

A Norway Brexit is as much a Brexit as a No Deal, or Canada +++ even. The maths are that Norway has come far closer than anything else to passing in Parliament. The £350m and the NHS was a lie by Cummings anyway so paying a bit towards membership is hardly an electoral problem. We can then get on with a lot of neglected domestic agendas - social care, health, education, business, infrastructure, climate change, science.

 

The key to unlocking this is Boris dumping Dominic Cummings this week, having his own ideas, working out with Ireland how the backstop issue can be overcome and actually seeking some cooperation, because May left that far too late. Now what you have is a game of chess with the electorate, Ireland and EU as the pawns.

 

Some of that maybe true but do you think if Brexit had been negotiated by somebody who actually believed in leaving the EU and we had a Parliament where 75% of parliamentarians were leave voters we'd still be having this debate?

[aintforever]

Be honest with yourself, Parliament has spent the last 3 years blocking Brexit,

 

MPs are paid to do what they think is best for their constituents, if they think the deal is sh!t then it is their duty to vote against it. Just like Boris did twice.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Some of that maybe true but do you think if Brexit had been negotiated by somebody who actually believed in leaving the EU and we had a Parliament where 75% of parliamentarians were leave voters we'd still be having this debate?

 

No, but what's your point? Do you think we'd have this issue if 75% of people had voted remain in the referendum? We can all come up with ridiculous straw mans that prove nothing.

 

There is a leaver as PM now - how's that going?

[Shroppie]

Some of that maybe true but do you think if Brexit had been negotiated by somebody who actually believed in leaving the EU and we had a Parliament where 75% of parliamentarians were leave voters we'd still be having this debate?

Yes we would. Supporting Leave is not simple when you're an elected representative whose first responsibility is to protect the interests of your constituents and the country.

 

It's one thing to vote Leave, when you've been promised all manner of things which turn out to be lies and fiction, and told clearly that leaving would be with a very beneficial deal, and another thing to support exit strategies (or lack of strategies) that are worse than the status quo and not in the country's interest.

 

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[scally]

No, but what's your point? Do you think we'd have this issue if 75% of people had voted remain in the referendum? We can all come up with ridiculous straw mans that prove nothing.

 

There is a leaver as PM now - how's that going?

 

What's going on at the moment means nothing, the real business starts when we have an election. The election is the referendum you've been waiting for, so do you vote for a remain party that is led by one of the biggest euro sceptics in Parliament and has a policy on Brexit that could have been thought up by Baldric or a party that wants a referendum on any deal that is agreed but has a leader that said she will not respect a vote that goes against her views, very democratic. I've voted Labour all my life but feel the party has not respected the views of a large number of it's traditional voters, they'll get destroyed in the Labour voting areas in the north. Despite everything that's gone over the last week I can't see the Tories being stopped, if Boris has to get into bed with Farage to get a majority then the actions of the rebel alliance this week may well be the catalyst for a no deal brexit.

[saint1977]

Some of that maybe true but do you think if Brexit had been negotiated by somebody who actually believed in leaving the EU and we had a Parliament where 75% of parliamentarians were leave voters we'd still be having this debate?

 

Parliament is broadly reflective of how the country voted in 2017 and will be reflective of how the country votes again in a GE Nov or after. That’s separate from a single issue referendum. As others have already posted, constituency MPs need to do what is best for their constituents, and No Deal is likely to be very bad for many, and is at best a huge leap in the dark. Other MPs from leave-voting areas will try to represent significant segments of their constituents eg Fisheries or agriculture in the Fens.

 

So the way forward is to extend the deadline, irrespective of whatever Boris has promised the ERG, Cummings and 100k Tory members, to negotiate a compromise so the country can actually Brexit and move on. It sounds like there is some modest progress with Ireland today so perhaps he can do it when he gets Cummings and the DT off his back and puts the megaphone down. After all, the referendum was 52/48 so as a number of the more sensible Tory Brexiteers have said, compromise was always likely.

[Portugalsaint]

French minister: EU won’t grant UK Brexit delay as things stand

But UK chancellor says Boris Johnson wants a deal, not an extension.

By ZOSIA WANAT 9/8/19, 12:07 PM CET Updated 9/9/19, 1:43 PM CET

Brussels won’t grant the U.K. a Brexit extension beyond October 31 if circumstances remain the same, Jean-Yves Le Drian, France's foreign minister, said Sunday.

 

“The British must tell us what they want,” he told Europe1 radio, Reuters reported. “We are not going to do this [grant an extension] every three months.”

[saint1977]

What's going on at the moment means nothing, the real business starts when we have an election. The election is the referendum you've been waiting for, so do you vote for a remain party that is led by one of the biggest euro sceptics in Parliament and has a policy on Brexit that could have been thought up by Baldric or a party that wants a referendum on any deal that is agreed but has a leader that said she will not respect a vote that goes against her views, very democratic. I've voted Labour all my life but feel the party has not respected the views of a large number of it's traditional voters, they'll get destroyed in the Labour voting areas in the north. Despite everything that's gone over the last week I can't see the Tories being stopped, if Boris has to get into bed with Farage to get a majority then the actions of the rebel alliance this week may well be the catalyst for a no deal brexit.

 

If people in those constituencies think the Tory party version 2019 is going to help them and millions of other working families they are in for a major disappointment. It would mean Barnsley and ex-mining areas voting for Thatcherites - not saying it is impossible but would destroy families. Is a No Deal Brexit really that emotionally important that families will put themselves even further in debt just to keep the Sun happy? With a little patience, there can be a Brexit that is of a cliff edge for working people, and that includes me and my family.

 

I can understand why people switched from Labour to Tory in the 80s through Right to Buy, there was something tangible whatever your views on the impact on housing policy overall. I suspect what people are trying to do is demand a stake in the economy feeling they don’t have one at present. That has nothing to do with the EU, so whatever Brexit does happen, and whoever governs, they will need to find a way to offer people more of a stake in the economy again. There is a fair bit of research showing that the largest Brexit voting regions want to see a dividend.

[doddisalegend]

There are going to be some disappointed people if Boris gets his way..

 

 

A majority of both Conservative (55%) and Leave (60%) voters, however, think a no-deal Brexit would result in a clean break from the EU, meaning the country could then focus on something else https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/re

 

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[CB Fry]

There are going to be some disappointed people if Boris gets his way..

 

 

A majority of both Conservative (55%) and Leave (60%) voters, however, think a no-deal Brexit would result in a clean break from the EU, meaning the country could then focus on something else https://yougov.co.uk/opi/surveys/re

 

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Indeed. Best news of the evening was confirmation that the Lib Dems will campaign on a pure revoke ticket. I hope they use "Make It Stop" as their campaign slogan and go all out to tell people that this is the only way to put an actual end to this.

 

Its not a message for everyone but there are 16m people that might be quite receptive and at least it's clear and unambiguous.

[Guided Missile]

Indeed. Best news of the evening was confirmation that the Lib Dems will campaign on a pure revoke ticket. I hope they use "Make It Stop" as their campaign slogan and go all out to tell people that this is the only way to put an actual end to this. Its not a message for everyone but there are 16m people that might be quite receptive and at least it's clear and unambiguous.

Behave. There is no way on earth any significant proportion of the 16m will vote for this bunch. They will revert to the minor party they have always been, with their only shot at power to form a grubby coalition. They can't even infiltrate the Conservative party anymore. They are toast, along with the Labour party. It will just take a little longer for the electorate to get the chance to have their say.

[Shroppie]

Behave. There is no way on earth any significant proportion of the 16m will vote for this bunch. They will revert to the minor party they have always been, with their only shot at power to form a grubby coalition. They can't even infiltrate the Conservative party anymore. They are toast, along with the Labour party. It will just take a little longer for the electorate to get the chance to have their say.

 

You are so wrong. Opinion polls are showing the LibDems gaining steadily and the clearer the message, the stronger they get.

 

Current polling suggests the Tories will get fewer seats than May won last time, and if we're not out on 31st Oct it'll get much worse fir them as the Farage lot will come back into play. It'll almost certainly be another hung parliament but with the present opposition parties working well together there's a strong chance of a short-term loose coalition to either put a deal, or no deal or remain to a second referendum or actually revoke Article 50. Parliament won't sort this out. A GE wont help at all. Now that the chaotic reality is evident, go back to where we started and ask the people.

 

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[aintforever]

You are so wrong. Opinion polls are showing the LibDems gaining steadily and the clearer the message, the stronger they get.

 

Current polling suggests the Tories will get fewer seats than May won last time, and if we're not out on 31st Oct it'll get much worse fir them as the Farage lot will come back into play. It'll almost certainly be another hung parliament but with the present opposition parties working well together there's a strong chance of a short-term loose coalition to either put a deal, or no deal or remain to a second referendum or actually revoke Article 50. Parliament won't sort this out. A GE wont help at all. Now that the chaotic reality is evident, go back to where we started and ask the people.

 

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It's the obvious solution.

 

Not sure why Brexiteers are so scared of a second vote if they think the people still want to leave.

[OldNick]

It's the obvious solution.

 

Not sure why Brexiteers are so scared of a second vote if they think the people still want to leave.

What if it is anther close one, do we go through with the shall we shan't we for another 3 years? What if the vote in Parliament comes down to just one vote on the deal, it will stay as a running sore forever.

Revoke Article 50 maybe the only option, I suspect the Europeans will press the button anyway and rightly so, they have more important things to worry about.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

It's the obvious solution.

 

Not sure why Brexiteers are so scared of a second vote if they think the people still want to leave.

 

Absolutely - they seem to be running scared of a second referendum.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

What if it is anther close one, do we go through with the shall we shan't we for another 3 years? What if the vote in Parliament comes down to just one vote on the deal, it will stay as a running sore forever.

Revoke Article 50 maybe the only option, I suspect the Europeans will press the button anyway and rightly so, they have more important things to worry about.

 

Then we stay, and the next election will be fought based on another referendum, but this one will have rules as to the majority needed to leave (55-45 or something like that).

[norwaysaint]

You are so wrong. Opinion polls are showing the LibDems gaining steadily and the clearer the message, the stronger they get.

 

Current polling suggests the Tories will get fewer seats than May won last time, and if we're not out on 31st Oct it'll get much worse fir them as the Farage lot will come back into play. It'll almost certainly be another hung parliament but with the present opposition parties working well together there's a strong chance of a short-term loose coalition to either put a deal, or no deal or remain to a second referendum or actually revoke Article 50. Parliament won't sort this out. A GE wont help at all. Now that the chaotic reality is evident, go back to where we started and ask the people.

 

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I would vote libdem if I had a vote, despite having never voted that way before. However, I think they will still suffer the same problem they always have. Vote percentage in the general population means nothing in a GE. That's why UKIP won f all despite all of their support. The libdems will be challenging strongly all over the country and take a lot of second places, but they won't quite be the biggest party in many constituencies, so it'll mean nothing at all.

[rallyboy]

Tactical voting could decide this election.

Many will not vote for who they actually want - but could keep out who they really don't want!

[the saint in winchester]

Agree with posts 13858-61. We don't want or need an election at this time. Let's see what the current will of the people 2019 is, with a referendum based on revised cost of exit.

Then the existing government will carry out the will of the people now.

And yes, UJ is right, we need to set an approval level to leave, be it 55% or 67% etc. Otherwise, maintain the status quo.

[sadoldgit]

Then we stay, and the next election will be fought based on another referendum, but this one will have rules as to the majority needed to leave (55-45 or something like that).

 

Which is where Cameron fckd up in the original referendum. As it was originally “advisory” it should have stipulated that a substantial majority in favour of leaving would trigger Brexit. Still, the genie is out of the bottle now and there is no going back. I would prefer that there was a second referendum. We know more about the issues and inherent problems now and I think it is fair to say that democracy is better served by a more informed electorate. Remainders are saying that people have changed their minds. If true then the vote will show that. If the Leavers win again, especially by a larger majority, Parliament will have to get on with it, no matter what the majority of the MPs think. The unfortunate thing is that it will be a one issue election yet there are many domestic issues that it should also be fought on but will be sidelined.

[aintforever]

The unfortunate thing is that it will be a one issue election

 

That's the problem, it never is a one issue election because people have different priorities.

 

If Boris wins then it would be probably because people don't want Corbyn as PM, not because they want a no deal Brexit. There will be Remainer Tories who vote blue just like there will be brexiteer labour voters who would rather die than vote for Boris.

[revolution saint]

I would vote libdem if I had a vote, despite having never voted that way before. However, I think they will still suffer the same problem they always have. Vote percentage in the general population means nothing in a GE. That's why UKIP won f all despite all of their support. The libdems will be challenging strongly all over the country and take a lot of second places, but they won't quite be the biggest party in many constituencies, so it'll mean nothing at all.

 

Tactical voting could decide this election.

Many will not vote for who they actually want - but could keep out who they really don't want!

 

Wouldn't surprise me to see someone come up with a website that tells people exactly what party to get behind in each constituency if they want to see either a second referendum or article 50 revoked. If remainers can club together and treat it as a single issue election then that scuppers Boris to an extent (if he's still having problems with Brexit party anyway). Wouldn't even need the explicit support of the individual party leaders to work either.

[moonraker]

Behave. There is no way on earth any significant proportion of the 16m will vote for this bunch. They will revert to the minor party they have always been, with their only shot at power to form a grubby coalition. They can't even infiltrate the Conservative party anymore. They are toast, along with the Labour party. It will just take a little longer for the electorate to get the chance to have their say.

Is that the same minor party that was in Government in WWI? The one led by war winning Liberal Lloyd George. Like all parties they have evolved but you can not rewrite history, and you are not good at forecasting future events, best to just stay in moment!

[mrfahaji]

It's the obvious solution.

 

Not sure why Brexiteers are so scared of a second vote if they think the people still want to leave.

 

Precisely. I'm really not sure what the outcome of a second referendum would be, but at least people wouldn't be under the impression that leaving would be painless and immediately better.

 

Plus the one thing a second referendum isn't is undemocratic. If everyone feels exactly the same then result stands, if they don't then surely it's a good thing we checked?! Unfortunately the main thing to come out of this is that roughly half the population will feel let down by and angry towards the other half regardless of how it ends up, and I struggle to see how that rift will ever be healed.

[Wes Tender]

Is that the same minor party that was in Government in WWI? The one led by war winning Liberal Lloyd George. Like all parties they have evolved but you can not rewrite history, and you are not good at forecasting future events, best to just stay in moment!

 

Are there any voters still alive that voted for them then?

[Wes Tender]

Plus the one thing a second referendum isn't is undemocratic.

 

Yes it is. Democratic is honouring the first referendum vote before calling for a second one. HTH

[mrfahaji]

Yes it is. Democratic is honouring the first referendum vote before calling for a second one. HTH

 

If it was a 2-year EU membership we were voting on then fine, but this is supposedly a decision that can be changed. So don't see how it's possible to implement the result and then call a second one...

 

IF the majority of people, seeing what leaving actually means, now wish to remain - and I'm not claiming they do - isn't it better that we do so? It seems to be the equivalent of signing up for a bungee jump, getting to the top and seeing the ropes aren't in the condition you'd like them to be, and when you say that you've changed your mind, being told you have to jump anyway!

[badgerx16]

And yes, UJ is right, we need to set an approval level to leave, be it 55% or 67% etc. Otherwise, maintain the status quo.

If it's good enough for the Fixed Term Parliaments Act.....,.

[aintforever]

Yes it is. Democratic is honouring the first referendum vote before calling for a second one. HTH

 

How can a vote, now that we have alot more information, possibly be undemocratic? It's just common sense.

 

The problem is we have headbangers on both side obsessed with 'winning' when fact is if we make the wrong choice we all lose.

 

I have always been quite pro-brexit, I certainly understand the reasons why people wanted to leave. But now we know what we do, it seems a Barmy choice when you weigh up the possible risks v rewards.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

How can a vote, now that we have alot more information, possibly be undemocratic? It's just common sense.

 

 

Don't forget who you're debating with.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

If it was a 2-year EU membership we were voting on then fine, but this is supposedly a decision that can be changed. So don't see how it's possible to implement the result and then call a second one...

 

IF the majority of people, seeing what leaving actually means, now wish to remain - and I'm not claiming they do - isn't it better that we do so? It seems to be the equivalent of signing up for a bungee jump, getting to the top and seeing the ropes aren't in the condition you'd like them to be, and when you say that you've changed your mind, being told you have to jump anyway!

 

Excellent analogy.

[Johnny Bognor]

One of the upsides of Brexit is that whilst the politicians are embroiled in the political mess, they pretty much leave the country to get with things unhindered. And we are doing OK with wages growth at the highest level for over 10 years and unemployment continuing to fall...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49646201

[Wes Tender]

If it was a 2-year EU membership we were voting on then fine, but this is supposedly a decision that can be changed. So don't see how it's possible to implement the result and then call a second one...

 

IF the majority of people, seeing what leaving actually means, now wish to remain - and I'm not claiming they do - isn't it better that we do so? It seems to be the equivalent of signing up for a bungee jump, getting to the top and seeing the ropes aren't in the condition you'd like them to be, and when you say that you've changed your mind, being told you have to jump anyway!

 

No it isn't. I'm afraid that the daily award for the most crap analogy is yours, unless somebody comes up with a worse one.

 

Nobody has seen what leaving the EU means, because nobody like us has ever done it before. What you mean, is that some people are getting cold feet because of the constant drip,drip of project fear in the media saying that leaving with no deal will be a catastrophe, talk of cliff edges and other such alarmist phraseology. An equal number of voters is probably switching to the leave camp because they are heartily fed-up with the delaying tactics employed by the remoaners, who if they were honest, would admit that they don't want it delayed but overturned.

 

Many of us had to endure the EEC/EU for over 40 years before we could vote on it again, but you lot are bleating about another referendum before we have even left. Frankly, it's pathetic. Democratic it certainly isn't.

[badgerx16]

Democratic it certainly isn't.

What has democracy to do with politics ? How many Governments are elected by a majority of the votes cast, let alone a majority of the Electorate ? How many MPs similarly within their constituencies ? Has there ever been a Parliament where the relative numbers of MPs for each party reflected the proportional share of the vote ? How many bills passed through Parliament have never been part of an election manifesto, and hence subject to voter scrutiny and approval ?

Edited 10 September, 2019 by badgerx16
corrected logic

[shurlock]

Les having a torrid tuesday.

[mrfahaji]

No it isn't. I'm afraid that the daily award for the most crap analogy is yours, unless somebody comes up with a worse one.

 

Nobody has seen what leaving the EU means, because nobody like us has ever done it before. What you mean, is that some people are getting cold feet because of the constant drip,drip of project fear in the media saying that leaving with no deal will be a catastrophe, talk of cliff edges and other such alarmist phraseology. An equal number of voters is probably switching to the leave camp because they are heartily fed-up with the delaying tactics employed by the remoaners, who if they were honest, would admit that they don't want it delayed but overturned.

 

Many of us had to endure the EEC/EU for over 40 years before we could vote on it again, but you lot are bleating about another referendum before we have even left. Frankly, it's pathetic. Democratic it certainly isn't.

 

So you think leaving the EU with no deal is either not a problem or not likely? Because while you are right that a lot of people clamouring for a second referendum ultimately want us to stay, the main gripe is that we have gone from a very marginal vote to leave based on claims that "of course the EU won't want us to leave without a deal" to a very real prospect of not having one, so that is clearly not the same situation.

 

If you have endured the EU for over 40 years (what exactly have we 'endured' though? I've long thought the issues of this country are to do with our own government decisions rather than the EU...) then that suggests you are close to (or in) retirement and therefore aren't facing the challenge of building a career or bringing up a family. In some ways, I guess that's a win for you, so well done.

[Sheaf Saint]

Many of us had to endure the EEC/EU for over 40 years

 

And you accuse remainers of using alarmist phraseology?

 

You make it sound like the EU is some kind of brutal, oppressive, occupying force which has enslaved the British people FFS.

[mrfahaji]

Les having a torrid tuesday.

 

I definitely should have taken heed of the 'enter at your own risk' part of the thread title.