Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[shurlock]

How does threatening to commit suicide win concessions from someone you are "negotiating" with ?

 

Obviously but simpletons who've been binge-watching the Apprentice think it's a credible strategy.

[badgerx16]

Highlights of the last couple of days, Ken Clarke showing that polite statesmanship has not yet died out, and Jess Phillips apologising in advance for not using "Parliamentary language" before laying into the Tories.

[Wes Tender]

Obviously but simpletons who've been binge-watching the Apprentice think it's a credible strategy.

 

You really are quite simple when it comes to business negotiating strategy, aren't you? Rule number one. Always be prepared to walk away from a bad deal, or your negotiating position is feeble and you will get taken advantage of. Badger also doesn't seem to realise that a no deal exit is bad for the EU too, so that they would have had more incentive to grant a more beneficial agreement in our mutual interests. Now they have no incentive to negotiate any change to the Theresa May surrender Treaty.

 

As for the "committing suicide" comment, that really is ridiculous hyperbole.

 

Aren't you going to justify Bercow's unconstitutional actions with your outstanding knowledge of Parliamentary procedure, as I asked you to above?

[shurlock]

You really are quite simple when it comes to business negotiating strategy, aren't you? Rule number one. Always be prepared to walk away from a bad deal, or your negotiating position is feeble and you will get taken advantage of. Badger also doesn't seem to realise that a no deal exit is bad for the EU too, so that they would have had more incentive to grant a more beneficial agreement in our mutual interests. Now they have no incentive to negotiate any change to the Theresa May surrender Treaty.

 

As for the "committing suicide" comment, that really is ridiculous hyperbole.

 

Aren't you going to justify Bercow's unconstitutional actions with your outstanding knowledge of Parliamentary procedure, as I asked you to above?

 

What have you negotiated before Les (Ebay doesn't count) and more importantly how is it relevant to the characteristics of this particular negotiation? Of course, it would help if Johnson actually intended to negotiate with the EU; but as Cummings admitted No.10's renegotiations are a sham.

Edited 5 September, 2019 by shurlock

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You really are quite simple when it comes to business negotiating strategy, aren't you? Rule number one. Always be prepared to walk away from a bad deal, or your negotiating position is feeble and you will get taken advantage of. Badger also doesn't seem to realise that a no deal exit is bad for the EU too, so that they would have had more incentive to grant a more beneficial agreement in our mutual interests. Now they have no incentive to negotiate any change to the Theresa May surrender Treaty.

 

As for the "committing suicide" comment, that really is ridiculous hyperbole.

 

Aren't you going to justify Bercow's unconstitutional actions with your outstanding knowledge of Parliamentary procedure, as I asked you to above?

 

The issue is Boris is not negotiating a new deal. If he was then fine.

 

That's what you don't seem to understand.

[Wes Tender]

Ken Clarke’s analysis is spot on. Had he been a bit more deft and less choreographed, perhaps, he might have pulled things off. Or indeed, heaven forbid, acted in good faith. But we are where we are. Now he should go and do his job instead of having a tantrum because others won’t take the bait. Tough titties pal.

 

You appear to believe naively that the likes of Ken Clarke and the other Conservative MPs who were expelled from the Party would have acted differently since Boris was elected Prime Minister, had he gone about things in a different way. Every single one of them, Clarke especially, has been determined to vote down everything pro-Brexit for the past three years, even against May. You're not going to infer that she was being unreasonable or unyielding to their shenanigans, are you? You crack me up.

[badgerx16]

You really are quite simple when it comes to business negotiating strategy, aren't you? Rule number one. Always be prepared to walk away from a bad deal, or your negotiating position is feeble and you will get taken advantage of. Badger also doesn't seem to realise that a no deal exit is bad for the EU too, so that they would have had more incentive to grant a more beneficial agreement in our mutual interests. Now they have no incentive to negotiate any change to the Theresa May surrender Treaty.

 

As for the "committing suicide" comment, that really is ridiculous hyperbole.

 

Don't presume my level of knowledge or understanding. Of course no-deal will hurt the EU, but they are looking to protect their internal markets and existing trade deals, so are balancing these 2 issues. We, on the other hand, are threatening to dissolve ALL of our existing trade deals, with nothing to replace them other than WTO rules, which currently no country in the world solely trades under.

[badgerx16]

The issue is Boris is not negotiating a new deal. If he was then fine.

 

That's what you don't seem to understand.

Ignore the blindingly obvious if it isn't what you want to see.

[shurlock]

You appear to believe naively that the likes of Ken Clarke and the other Conservative MPs who were expelled from the Party would have acted differently since Boris was elected Prime Minister, had he gone about things in a different way. Every single one of them, Clarke especially, has been determined to vote down everything pro-Brexit for the past three years, even against May. You're not going to infer that she was being unreasonable or unyielding to their shenanigans, are you? You crack me up.

 

Ken Clarke has voted to leave the EU more times than Boris Johnson and most ERG swivels. You're looking a bit silly Les

Edited 5 September, 2019 by shurlock

[badgerx16]

Clarke especially, has been determined to vote down everything pro-Brexit for the past three years, even against May.

Ken Clarke voted for May's Withdrawal Agreement each time it was presented.

[Guided Missile]

Jess Phillips apologising in advance for not using "Parliamentary language" before laying into the Tories.

The only good thing about Jess Phillips is that she is Kevin Phillips cousin-in-law. A middle class grammar school girl who is fooling no one apart from her constituents about her faux working class roots. Perfect constituency for the Conservatives to stand back from this hate filled cow at the next election and let a Brexit candidate take the bullet. You never know. Her performance in the Commons yesterday was an embarrassment...

[Wes Tender]

Don't presume my level of knowledge or understanding. Of course no-deal will hurt the EU, but they are looking to protect their internal markets and existing trade deals, so are balancing these 2 issues. We, on the other hand, are threatening to dissolve ALL of our existing trade deals, with nothing to replace them other than WTO rules, which currently no country in the world solely trades under.

 

So you do understand that in negotiations it is a very poor strategy to not be prepared to walk away from a bad deal? Maybe you just expressed yourself poorly, because you gave the impression that you disapproved of Boris wanting to pursue that strategy.

[benjii]

You really are quite simple when it comes to business negotiating strategy, aren't you? Rule number one. Always be prepared to walk away from a bad deal, or your negotiating position is feeble and you will get taken advantage of. Badger also doesn't seem to realise that a no deal exit is bad for the EU too, so that they would have had more incentive to grant a more beneficial agreement in our mutual interests. Now they have no incentive to negotiate any change to the Theresa May surrender Treaty.

 

As for the "committing suicide" comment, that really is ridiculous hyperbole.

 

Aren't you going to justify Bercow's unconstitutional actions with your outstanding knowledge of Parliamentary procedure, as I asked you to above?

 

After three years you still don’t understand how the EU operates and that his is nothing like negotiating an agreement for five pallets of fertiliser.

[Guided Missile]

How does he do #2 before #4?

 

and what the hell is a freedom charter?

#2 - Line up candidates to stand in 21 constituencies that have been mis-represented for years.

#4 - Freedom charter means free to negotiate FTA's and be free of EU legal oversight.

 

That'll do me.

Edited 5 September, 2019 by Guided Missile
Spelling

[Shroppie]

You appear to believe naively that the likes of Ken Clarke and the other Conservative MPs who were expelled from the Party would have acted differently since Boris was elected Prime Minister, had he gone about things in a different way. Every single one of them, Clarke especially, has been determined to vote down everything pro-Brexit for the past three years, even against May. You're not going to infer that she was being unreasonable or unyielding to their shenanigans, are you? You crack me up. [emoji38]

Your facts are simply wrong.

 

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[badgerx16]

So you do understand that in negotiations it is a very poor strategy to not be prepared to walk away from a bad deal? Maybe you just expressed yourself poorly, because you gave the impression that you disapproved of Boris wanting to pursue that strategy.

When you walk away from a negotiation you go back to where you were before you started. You don't throw everything you currently have away. And if Boris WAS actually doing any negotiating, he might have a chance of achieving something.

Edited 5 September, 2019 by badgerx16

[badgerx16]

The only good thing about Jess Phillips is that she is Kevin Phillips cousin-in-law. A middle class grammar school girl who is fooling no one apart from her constituents about her faux working class roots. Perfect constituency for the Conservatives to stand back from this hate filled cow at the next election and let a Brexit candidate take the bullet. You never know. Her performance in the Commons yesterday was an embarrassment...

Just shows you, 2 people viewing a coin from different sides : one sees the head, the other sees the reverse.

[badgerx16]

#2 - Line up candidates to stand in 21 constituencies that have been mis-represented for years.

#4 - Freedom charter means free to negotiate FTA's and be free of EU legal oversight.

 

That'll do me.

He would have to win a majority without any Scottish MPs.

[Wes Tender]

Ken Clarke has voted to leave the EU more times than Boris Johnson and most ERG swivels. You're looking a bit silly Les

 

Are there two Ken Clarkes in the House? Regarding the EU, Clarke has more often voted for more EU integration and for membership of the EU. His record of voted on the referendum was mixed. It's you who looks silly. Clarke is probably historically the most pro-EU MP in the House.

[Guided Missile]

He would have to win a majority without any Scottish MPs.

Him, the DUP and the Brexit Party, you mean...

[Wes Tender]

Your facts are simply wrong.

 

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I wasn't quoting facts; I was expressing an opinion. As are you, as you have not one jot of evidence that any single one of them might have voted otherwise. HTH

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Gosh, isn't Les getting tetchy this morning? Maybe the gardener's been round or sumink?

[Shroppie]

The key issue for Labour and other opposition parties is how long they force Johnson to stew in his own mess before acceding to a GE.

 

To me the sensible option is as late as possible. Force him to go to the EU summit with no plan, make him renege on his promise no to extend beyond 31st Oct or break the law of parliament then, after Oct 31st, call a VONC and fight an election on the basis of Johnson's failures and bluster. The Brexit Party will come back into play.

 

Anything earlier is risky. Despite parliament's restrictions on No Deal I still wouldn't trust Johnson not to try to force No Deal through during prorogation.

 

Is it now too late to hold an election before the EU summit?

 

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[Wes Tender]

After three years you still don’t understand how the EU operates and that his is nothing like negotiating an agreement for five pallets of fertiliser.

 

What a facile way to respond; just state that a poster doesn't understand how the EU operates in negotiations. How are the principles in negotiating a deal different? Would we get a better deal by telling them that we will accept anything that they are kind enough to grant us?

[Wes Tender]

What have you negotiated before Les (Ebay doesn't count) and more importantly how is it relevant to the characteristics of this particular negotiation? Of course, it would help if Johnson actually intended to negotiate with the EU; but as Cummings admitted No.10's renegotiations are a sham.

 

I am negotiating deals on a daily basis, mate.

[Shroppie]

Are there two Ken Clarkes in the House? Regarding the EU, Clarke has more often voted for more EU integration and for membership of the EU. His record of voted on the referendum was mixed. It's you who looks silly. Clarke is probably historically the most pro-EU MP in the House.

Yes, Ken Clarke is pro-EU. Yes, he has consistently supported membership. But the simple fact is he has always said he would respect the referendum result and did vote three times for May's deal.

 

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[shurlock]

Are there two Ken Clarkes in the House? Regarding the EU, Clarke has more often voted for more EU integration and for membership of the EU. His record of voted on the referendum was mixed. It's you who looks silly. Clarke is probably historically the most pro-EU MP in the House.

 

Les you're squirming and disassembling - I thought you would have learnt by now (you have plenty of experience) that when you're in a hole don't dig pal.

 

Specifically you said "Clarke especially, has been determined to vote down everything pro-Brexit for the past three years, even against May". Whether Clarke has historically voted for EU integration 10, 20 or 30 years ago is wholly irrelevant with respect to your original statement and what has happened in the past three years (your words).

 

Either back up your original statement (you can start by explaining Clarke's record on the WA) or put your hands up and admit you've had a shocker

Edited 5 September, 2019 by shurlock

[OldNick]

Obviously but simpletons who've been binge-watching the Apprentice think it's a credible strategy.

Well how about going to negotiations telling the other side that your trump card is now not on the table. The Eu were as fearful of No deal as we are. Notice how there were some cracks appearing in the Europeans but now they can breathe again. As for getting 700 people to agree on a common theme good luck with that one.

Great Britain has lost all credibility, the Brexiteers are destroying what they pertain to love and worse still have opened the door to the most left wing government in our nations history.

I feel great sadness that we are sleepwalking into a bigger nightmare, and once we have had the Labour government (if they get a working majority) we will as a nation never recover. David Cameron and Nigel Farage have a lot to answer for.

Enjoy full employment now while you can as once Corbyns madcap schemes are brought upon us the investment and companies will leave us in droves.

I dont trust Boris but I wonder if the man in the street is tired and aware of Corbyn and co's obvious stalling and may think 'lets get on with it' and vote Boris just to get this nightmare gone.

[shurlock]

Well how about going to negotiations telling the other side that your trump card is now not on the table. The Eu were as fearful of No deal as we are. Notice how there were some cracks appearing in the Europeans but now they can breathe again. As for getting 700 people to agree on a common theme good luck with that one.

Great Britain has lost all credibility, the Brexiteers are destroying what they pertain to love and worse still have opened the door to the most left wing government in our nations history.

I feel great sadness that we are sleepwalking into a bigger nightmare, and once we have had the Labour government (if they get a working majority) we will as a nation never recover. David Cameron and Nigel Farage have a lot to answer for.

Enjoy full employment now while you can as once Corbyns madcap schemes are brought upon us the investment and companies will leave us in droves.

I dont trust Boris but I wonder if the man in the street is tired and aware of Corbyn and co's obvious stalling and may think 'lets get on with it' and vote Boris just to get this nightmare gone.

 

There's no evidence of the sort. The warm words from Merkel and Macron are simply good, pragmatic diplomacy to keep doors open and an unwillingness to be blamed by the UK press and swivels if things go wrong (a thankless task). By contrast, we now know that Johnson hasn't actually negotiated with the EU or offered any concrete proposals - even when no deal was on the table. Renegotiations have been a sham in the words of No.10 insiders. They have been deliberately set up to fail, so Johnson can call an election, scapegoat Parliament and the EU, throw a bit of money around and claim there's a great deal on the horizon before the realities of Brexit and no deal have materialised.

 

Clearly the EU doesn't want no deal but its an economic fact that the costs will be disproportionately borne by the UK (followed probably by Ireland). I know you keep banging on about getting Brexit done to end uncertainty. But for an honest assessment of that position, you might want to take a look at the ever erudite Ivan Rogers:

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/ivan-rogers-the-realities-of-a-no-deal-brexit/

Edited 5 September, 2019 by shurlock

[badgerx16]

Him, the DUP and the Brexit Party, you mean...

Would the DUP continue to support him IF the consequence was a hard border ?

[Tamesaint]

The key issue for Labour and other opposition parties is how long they force Johnson to stew in his own mess before acceding to a GE.

 

To me the sensible option is as late as possible. Force him to go to the EU summit with no plan, make him renege on his promise no to extend beyond 31st Oct or break the law of parliament then, after Oct 31st, call a VONC and fight an election on the basis of Johnson's failures and bluster. The Brexit Party will come back into play.

 

Anything earlier is risky. Despite parliament's restrictions on No Deal I still wouldn't trust Johnson not to try to force No Deal through during prorogation.

 

Is it now too late to hold an election before the EU summit?

 

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I agree.

 

The other benefit from a longer delay is that the longer the delay, the more chance the public have to learn about the shambles of this government. Cracks are already beginning to appear in the Cabinet as the "vegetables" object to Dom and Dommer. These cracks are not going to get any smaller with time.

 

Above all there will be more PMQ's and the chance to see Johnson's bluster and obfuscation in the Commons. His performance is quite cringeworthy. It certainly is amazing to see Corbyn look statesmanlike in comparison!!

Edited 5 September, 2019 by Tamesaint

[badgerx16]

 

Is it now too late to hold an election before the EU summit?

 

No, as that was what Boris was offering. However, as previously pointed out, once Parliament has been dissolved in advance of a GE, the PM can arbitrarily change the polling date without having to consult or gain approval.

[shurlock]

I am negotiating deals on a daily basis, mate.

 

[Guided Missile]

Would the DUP continue to support him IF the consequence was a hard border ?

Jesus H Christ. You really are switched on about the border issue, aren't you?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Jesus H Christ. You really are switched on about the border issue, aren't you?

 

It's quite a big deal - it's the reason that Brexit hasn't gone ahead yet, because without one we have to have the backstop. The whole of Brexit has come down to this, as many Remainers (including myself, Shurlock and probably Badger) have said they will accept May's deal as long as it doesn't mean a hard border in Ireland.

[Wes Tender]

Les you're squirming and disassembling - I thought you would have learnt by now (you have plenty of experience) that when you're in a hole don't dig pal.

 

Specifically you said "Clarke especially, has been determined to vote down everything pro-Brexit for the past three years, even against May". Whether Clarke has historically voted for EU integration 10, 20 or 30 years ago is wholly irrelevant with respect to your original statement and what has happened in the past three years (your words).

 

Either back up your original statement (you can start by explaining Clarke's record on the WA) or put your hands up and admit you've had a shocker

 

Nothing wrong with my statement about Clarke's voting record on the EU. I stand by it. You can mention his record on May's Surrender Treaty by all means, but Clarke has also consistently voted with Labour to scupper Brexit by allowing them to take control of the House to thwart no deal. Good riddance to the senile old goat.

[shurlock]

Nothing wrong with my statement about Clarke's voting record on the EU. I stand by it. You can mention his record on May's Surrender Treaty by all means, but Clarke has also consistently voted with Labour to scupper Brexit by allowing them to take control of the House to thwart no deal. Good riddance to the senile old goat.

 

It's irrelevant to your original statement which numerous posters pulled you up on, leaving egg on your face.

 

In other news, Jo Johnson has grown a backbone.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

It's irrelevant to your original statement which numerous posters pulled you up on, leaving egg on your face.

 

In other news, Jo Johnson has grown a backbone.

 

It's because apart from Alexander, they're actually a good bunch of people in that family.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Nothing wrong with my statement about Clarke's voting record on the EU. I stand by it. You can mention his record on May's Surrender Treaty by all means, but Clarke has also consistently voted with Labour to scupper Brexit by allowing them to take control of the House to thwart no deal. Good riddance to the senile old goat.

 

[badgerx16]

Jesus H Christ. You really are switched on about the border issue, aren't you?

Somebody has to be, as many others seem to view it as inconsequential.

[shurlock]

It's because apart from Alexander, they're actually a good bunch of people in that family.

 

He should have never accepted a position in his brother's government (with cabinet attendance) in the first place. But better late than never, so fair play.

 

Just makes Matt Hancock, Amber Rudd and Nicky Morgan look even more craven

[Unbelievable Jeff]

He should have never accepted a position in his brother's government (with cabinet attendance) in the first place. But better late than never, so fair play.

 

Just makes Matt Hancock, Amber Rudd and Nicky Morgan look even more craven

 

Well, if he believed that his brother was going for a deal, then I can forgive him that.

 

However, the last few days have shown how utterly insane Boris, his Government and his supporters are.

[shurlock]

Well, if he believed that his brother was going for a deal, then I can forgive him that.

 

However, the last few days have shown how utterly insane Boris, his Government and his supporters are.

 

Possibly, though the claims he was making in the leadership contest i.e. how he was going to get rid of the backstop and gut the WA- should have signalled to most objective people that he wasn't really serious about negotiating with EU and getting a deal. Turns out those fears have been vindicated.

[OldNick]

There's no evidence of the sort. The warm words from Merkel and Macron are simply good, pragmatic diplomacy to keep doors open and an unwillingness to be blamed by the UK press and swivels if things go wrong (a thankless task). By contrast, we now know that Johnson hasn't actually negotiated with the EU or offered any concrete proposals - even when no deal was on the table. Renegotiations have been a sham in the words of No.10 insiders. They have been deliberately set up to fail, so Johnson can call an election, scapegoat Parliament and the EU, throw a bit of money around and claim there's a great deal on the horizon before the realities of Brexit and no deal have materialised.

 

Clearly the EU doesn't want no deal but its an economic fact that the costs will be disproportionately borne by the UK (followed probably by Ireland). I know you keep banging on about getting Brexit done to end uncertainty. But for an honest assessment of that position, you might want to take a look at the ever erudite Ivan Rogers:

 

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/ivan-rogers-the-realities-of-a-no-deal-brexit/

Yes a very decent article. As for '

banging on about getting Brexit done to end uncertainty

' I wonder if you rely on the public sector that is at this time insulated by the current climate, but if you are in the private sector you will feel the cold winds of recession kicking in.

[OldNick]

It's quite a big deal - it's the reason that Brexit hasn't gone ahead yet, because without one we have to have the backstop. The whole of Brexit has come down to this, as many Remainers (including myself, Shurlock and probably Badger) have said they will accept May's deal as long as it doesn't mean a hard border in Ireland.

Am I reading right what you are saying? The whole mess is about the border and having to have the hard border surely. Boris is not wanting that either

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Possibly, though the claims he was making in the leadership contest i.e. how he was going to get rid of the backstop and gut the WA- should have signalled to most objective people that he wasn't really serious about negotiating with EU and getting a deal. Turns out those fears have been vindicated.

 

Of course, but again, this is family, so I presume that some loyalty will have muddied those waters...either way, correct decision made now.

 

This is a massive blow for Boris. If his own brother is willing to quit, then surely no-one can trust him.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Am I reading right what you are saying? The whole mess is about the border and having to have the hard border surely. Boris is not wanting that either

 

Yes, having a hard border is the issue, but without a backstop it is near-on impossible not to have a hard border. We have not heard a solution to it, hence why the backstop is still there.

[aintforever]

Yes, having a hard border is the issue, but without a backstop it is near-on impossible not to have a hard border. We have not heard a solution to it, hence why the backstop is still there.

 

And Boris has until the end of September to present his alternative arrangements (which we all know do not exist), hence the current chaos.

[Guided Missile]

Rope-a-Dope

 

[shurlock]

Yes, having a hard border is the issue, but without a backstop it is near-on impossible not to have a hard border. We have not heard a solution to it, hence why the backstop is still there.

 

Yep.

 

Has anyone actually looked at the work done by the alternative arrangements commission? Obviously Les and John haven't though they'll claim in customary ignorant confidence that it makes the backstop redundant. Among the most staggering proposals -though absolutely critical to the operation of alternative arrangements is that the Republic of Ireland leaves the Single Market regime and forms a new “food safety union” with the UK so as to ensure regulatory alignment. It doesn't explain why on earth Ireland would want to leave the EU regime, never mind why the EU would allow Ireland to leave. But this is the current state of thinking - no wonder nothing's been proposed yet. Delusional.