Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Whitey Grandad]

This would be the guy who promised a referendum purely to get himself the PM job, then jumped ship when it didn't go his way leaving a cluster-**** of a government behind to pick up the pieces.

 

You are talking about Boris, obviously. Or possibly Farage?

[Whitey Grandad]

In practice, trade agreements almost always extend to cover broader subject matter than just tariffs and related matters falling within the scope of the EEC/EU common commercial policy. Where an external agreement contains provisions which extend beyond the scope of the common commercial policy or the EU’s other powers to conclude external agreements in its own name, it is necessary for the Member States as well as the EU to be parties to the agreement. This is called a “mixed” or “shared” competence agreement: where part of the competence to conclude the agreement belongs to the EU, but part of it remains with the Member States.

 

One particularly important series of agreements which involved mixed competence were the World Trade Organisation (WTO) Agreements which were concluded in 1993 as a result of the Uruguay Round Multilateral Trade Negotiations. This linked series of Agreements forms the bedrock of global trade.

 

Both the individual Member States including the UK, and the EU itself, are parties to the WTO Agreements. The respective legal powers of the EC (as it then was) and the Member States were ruled upon by the European Court of Justice in Op 1/94 Re the Uruguay Round Agreements [1994] ECR I-5267. The Court rejected a contention by the European Commission that the EC had across-the-board competence to conclude the WTO Agreements in its own name. Although the core provisions of the WTO Agreements relating to trade in goods fell within the EC’s exclusive competence under the common commercial policy, the Court ruled that other areas covered by the WTO Agreements relating to services (parts of the General Agreement on Trade in Services - GATS) and the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property (TRIPS) were outside the EC’s competence or were areas where the EC’s competence was shared with the Member States.

 

The upshot of this “mixed competence” scenario is that vis-a-vis other parties, the EC/EU is responsible for compliance with, and entitled to the benefit of, certain aspects of the WTO Agreements; while the Member States individually remain responsible for, and entitled to the benefit of, the remaining aspects. The boundary between EC/EU and Member State competences is not stationary: under the ECJ’s Lugano doctrine, the EU acquires external competence in areas where internal EU harmonisation occurs, and a significant shift in competence took place under the Lisbon Treaty which made the trade-related aspects of intellectual property part of the EU’s commercial policy. While this fluctuating boundary line may be confusing for other WTO members, it is in general accepted by them.

 

However, the consequence of this after Brexit is straightforward. The EU will cease to have any competence in respect of the UK’s trade or other external relations, and the UK will automatically assume rights and responsibilities in respect of 100% of its relationship with other members under the WTO Agreements. In addition, trade relations between the UK and the remaining EU (“the r-EU”) will cease to be governed by the EU treaties, and will automatically be governed by the framework of the WTO Agreements - unless of course a replacement trade agreement is negotiated between the UK and the r-EU which comes into force on exit.

 

There is no question of the UK having to leave the WTO or to re-apply for membership. The UK is one of the original founding members of the WTO, as laid down by Article XI(1) of the WTO Agreement

 

Adoption of WTO rules is certainly not a 'given'.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/07/wto-chief-brexit-trade-talks-start-scratch-eu-referendum

[buctootim]

Adoption of WTO rules is certainly not a 'given'.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/07/wto-chief-brexit-trade-talks-start-scratch-eu-referendum

 

The DG of the WTO is just another scare-mongerer dontchaknow. What does he know about the WTO anyway? David Davis will show 'em. blah blah blah ad infinitum.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Highly vindictive? - you mean sticking to the agreements every one of the 27 nations, including Britain, signed up to? Spain has bigger and more productive waters than us, that our fleet accesses.

 

The odd thing about Brexiteers is they claim to value independence and self reliance but want the EU to give them everything they ask for yet offer nothing in return. Equitable deals which recognise the needs of both parties. Thats the real basis of trade negotiona Johnny. Not demanding everything and crying foul when it turns out Father Christmas hasnt delivered on the wishlist.

 

So under your logic the UK fishing industry would have been very keen to stay in the EU? Not sure too many voted in especially those hard working west country fisherman abused by Bob Geldof and his shipmates.

 

I am not sure I would be alone in detecting an appetite to 'punish' the UK in certain circles of the EU. You also seem to be suggesting that democracy is the price we have to pay for being in the Union.

 

What I find a little odd about those that voted to stay in is that there is no willingness to concede that the EU has some very pronounced issues to address.

[buctootim]

So under your logic the UK fishing industry would have been very keen to stay in the EU? Not sure too many voted in especially those hard working west country fisherman abused by Bob Geldof and his shipmates.

 

I am not sure I would be alone in detecting an appetite to 'punish' the UK in certain circles of the EU. You also seem to be suggesting that democracy is the price we have to pay for being in the Union.

 

What I find a little odd about those that voted to stay in is that there is no willingness to concede that the EU has some very pronounced issues to address.

 

The North Sea used to be the most productive sea in the world, producing 5% of global catch at one time. Britain overfished and drove down stocks to a fraction of what they should be long before we joined the EU. Iceland and Norway managed their waters properly and lo still have good stocks now.

 

We joined a club because we wanted benefits, as did 26 other countries. Now we have voted to leave the club but still want to keep the benefits we like but we dont want to pay for for any of the running costs. Unsurprisingly the other 26 are saying 'no chance'.

 

Brexiteers are behaving like teenagers who cant get what they want. They promised something that couldn't and wouldn't be delivered.

 

No-one ever on this thread has said the EU doent need reform, its just another Brexit strawman.

[Wes Tender]

Erm, thats just a cut & paste from Lawyers for Britain. How odd.

 

Likewise Verbal's list of questions was just a cut and paste from loser Clegg and Peter Sutherland. How odd.

[buctootim]

Likewise Verbal's list of questions was just a cut and paste from loser Clegg and Peter Sutherland. How odd.

 

The difference is he didnt try and pass the questions off as his own work - he said they came from elsewhere (although he should have provided the source).

[Lord Duckhunter]

You really must learn what is meant by the term 'lie'. To state an intention which is not later fulfilled does not make it a lie. You cannot lie about something that has not happened yet.

 

Pony

 

As part of his project fear he said he would trigger article 50 the very next day after the vote . It happened and he didn't . If that's not a lie, what is ?

 

He said he wouldn't resign if the country voted Brexit . We voted Brexit and he resigned . If that's not a lie, what is?

[buctootim]

If that's not a lie, what is?

 

A BBQ?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

The North Sea used to be the most productive sea in the world, producing 5% of global catch at one time. Britain overfished and drove down stocks to a fraction of what they should be long before we joined the EU. Iceland and Norway managed their waters properly and lo still have good stocks now.

 

We joined a club because we wanted benefits, as did 26 other countries. Now we have voted to leave the club but still want to keep the benefits we like but we dont want to pay for for any of the running costs. Unsurprisingly the other 26 are saying 'no chance'.

 

Brexiteers are behaving like teenagers who cant get what they want. They promised something that couldn't and wouldn't be delivered.

 

No-one ever on this thread has said the EU doent need reform, its just another Brexit strawman.

 

Was our fishing fleet not the largest in the world before we signed up?

 

Publicly there is plenty of bravado but behind the scenes one would obviously like to think that people recognise the damage done to both sides if it is not an amicable break up.

 

You talk us down again, this is the UK not Norway. Believe it or not the benefits were two way. David Cameron went to the EU and asked for concessions and he could not even persuade them to allow us to demand that people had a job before they came to the UK. It was no surprise that we voted out.

 

How exactly were you expecting the EU to embrace reform. The referendum result was ultimately a good result because if we had voted to stay in then nothing would have changed but now there is a political will to address some of the issues.

[buctootim]

Was our fishing fleet not the largest in the world before we signed up?

 

Publicly there is plenty of bravado but behind the scenes one would obviously like to think that people recognise the damage done to both sides if it is not an amicable break up.

 

You talk us down again, this is the UK not Norway. Believe it or not the benefits were two way. David Cameron went to the EU and asked for concessions and he could not even persuade them to allow us to demand that people had a job before they came to the UK. It was no surprise that we voted out.

 

How exactly were you expecting the EU to embrace reform. The referendum result was ultimately a good result because if we had voted to stay in then nothing would have changed but now there is a political will to address some of the issues.

 

This is a typical Brexit post - full of untrue claims about Britain's exceptionalism and why reality doesn't apply to us. Anyone who punctures the illusion with facts is talking Britain down.

 

No we didnt have the largest fishing fleet pre EU, not since about 1900 anyway. What has prompted moves to reform the EU is the refugee crisis.

 

Why should the EU constantly give Britian concessions not given to other members? Cameron didnt get more because the other 26 didnt want to give us more - why should we get something they dont? We wont get a better deal than Norway and Switzerland because to do so would mean everybody would want the a la carte / pick n mix deal and then the thing that everybody wants to be a part of of - the single market - would fall apart and cease to exist. I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand. Its not just that it wont be given, its that it can't be given. If Britain restricts labour then Poland might want to restrict Nissan imports and France might want to ban the use of English in business in France and the Netherlands want to protect Philips and Greece wants to impose tariffs on German imports until you have 27 countries all following their own agendas and priorities with no single market.

 

We either man up and leave gracefully - and accept the c15% it will knock off our GDP or we join the EEA / stay in the EU and accept the conditions. This constant plea for cake and eat it because we're special is degrading.

Edited 13 September, 2016 by buctootim

[Whitey Grandad]

Pony

 

As part of his project fear he said he would trigger article 50 the very next day after the vote . It happened and he didn't . If that's not a lie, what is ?

 

He said he wouldn't resign if the country voted Brexit . We voted Brexit and he resigned . If that's not a lie, what is?

 

No no no. It's not a lie because you cannot lie about something that hasn't happened yet. This is a very simple concept, I'm surprised and disappointed that you cannot grasp it.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

This is a typical Brexit post - full of untrue claims about Britain's exceptionalism and why reality doesn't apply to us. Anyone who punctures the illusion with facts is talking Britain down.

 

No we didnt have the largest fishing fleet pre EU, not since about 1900 anyway. What has prompted moves to reform the EU is the refugee crisis.

 

Why should the EU constantly give Britian concessions not given to other members? Cameron didnt get more because the other 26 didnt want to give us more - why should we get something they dont? We wont get a better deal than Norway and Switzerland because to do so would mean everybody would want the a la carte / pick n mix deal and then the thing that everybody wants to be a part of of - the single market - would fall apart and cease to exist. I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand. Its not just that it wont be given, its that it can't be given. If Britain restricts labour then Poland might want to restrict Nissan imports and France might want to ban the use of English in business in France and the Netherlands want to protect Philips and Greece wants to impose tariffs on German imports until you have 27 countries all following their own agendas and priorities with no single market.

 

We either man up and leave gracefully - and accept the c15% it will knock off our GDP or we join the EEA / stay in the EU and accept the conditions. This constant plea for cake and eat it because we're special is degrading.

 

What is a typical Brexit post?

 

Sorry I should have said biggest European fishing fleet.

 

Like others in the remain camp you cannot accept that Europe's dysfunctional, inflexible and undemocratic ways was a major factor in people voting for Brexit. It's unwillingness to change will threaten its very existence. Its parliament has become increasingly full of protest parties and the next European elections will probably make it completely unworkable and full of crackpots.

 

I think we should go out there and fight like hell for the best deal using every tactic and bargaining tool at our disposal. 'Manning up' and accepting that our GDP will fall is what I would expect of those that were happy to stand by and accept that the EU needed to change but never would.

[buctootim]

Like others in the remain camp you cannot accept that Europe's dysfunctional, inflexible and undemocratic ways was a major factor in people voting for Brexit.

 

You're still peddling untruths. I and I'd guess nearly all remainers know the EU's problems and limitations. I decided it was better to stay in because the Brexit promises would never materialise. Therefore remaining and trying to reform the EU from inside was going to be a better option than 1. leaving and the massive economic hit that would entail or 2. joining the EEA - all the same responsibilities but no say and no vote.

 

Brexiteers bought into a lie peddled by mostly second rate self serving politicians. The 'have it all' Pollyanna sunlit uplands of independence, low immigration, prosperity and gambolling through cornfields carrying a Union Jack was never going to happen.

Edited 13 September, 2016 by buctootim

[aintforever]

You are talking about Boris, obviously. Or possibly Farage?

 

Why else did Cameron promise a refurendum at the last general election if it wasn't to win over potential UKIP voters?

[Johnny Bognor]

The difference is he didnt try and pass the questions off as his own work - he said they came from elsewhere (although he should have provided the source).

 

I did cut and paste. I didn't pass it as my own work. I was too busy taking advantage of a low pound to boost our exports...

Edited 14 September, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Whitey Grandad]

Why else did Cameron promise a refurendum at the last general election if it wasn't to win over potential UKIP voters?

 

It was supposed to be tongue in cheek, but your comments could equally have applied to these other two and possibly more. They're all in it for themselves.

 

 

But we knew that already.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You're still peddling untruths. I and I'd guess nearly all remainers know the EU's problems and limitations. I decided it was better to stay in because the Brexit promises would never materialise. Therefore remaining and trying to reform the EU from inside was going to be a better option than 1. leaving and the massive economic hit that would entail or 2. joining the EEA - all the same responsibilities but no say and no vote.

 

Brexiteers bought into a lie peddled by mostly second rate self serving politicians. The 'have it all' Pollyanna sunlit uplands of independence, low immigration, prosperity and gambolling through cornfields carrying a Union Jack was never going to happen.

 

I think your assumptions about Brexiteers are unfounded and the inability to emphasise would suggest that the intellectual gulf between stay and leave is not as great as you would believe. Were you one of the nearly three quarters of economists who predicted a post Brexit recession?

 

Do you think change is more likely now we have voted out than if we had voted in?

 

I hope that I am on the right side of the argument but I cannot of course ever be sure.

Edited 13 September, 2016 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[Whitey Grandad]

I think your assumptions about Brexiteers are unfounded and the inability to emphasise would suggest that the intellectual gulf between stay and leave is not as great as you would believe. Were you one of the nearly three quarters of economists who predicted a post Brexit recession?

 

Do you think change is more likely now we have voted out than if we had voted in?

 

I hope that I am on the right side of the argument but I cannot of course ever be sure.

 

I think you're confusing the result of the referendum with Brexit itself. One of them hasn't happened yet.

[Lord Duckhunter]

No no no. It's not a lie because you cannot lie about something that hasn't happened yet. This is a very simple concept, I'm surprised and disappointed that you cannot grasp it.

 

So if I tell my snap dragon I'm not going to Prague but then go , she cant accuse me of being a lying bar steward . Result !!!!

[saint si]

This constant plea for cake and eat it because we're special is degrading.

 

Yep - we are the pompey of Europe.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

We joined a club because we wanted benefits,

 

Brexiteers are behaving like teenagers who cant get what they want

 

.

 

Laughable

 

The club we joined was an economic community with a handful of members , we ended up in a political union of over 20 without having a say .

 

We've got what we want

 

It's the remoaners throwing their toys out of the pram because they lost that are acting like spoilt teenagers .

 

I really enjoy reading the bitter ramblings of the anti democratic remoaners as it makes the people's army's victory sweeter by the day. Keep it up please .

[Wes Tender]

Yep - we are the pompey of Europe.

 

What a totally clueless analogy. Greece maybe, if you had to choose any EU country.

[Johnny Bognor]

I see the unemployment rate has fallen from 5.6% to 4.9% and average weekly earnings increased by 2.4% over the may-july period.

 

What with the markets recovering, balance of trade deficit down, inflation stable and a whole host of other good news .... we are a long long long way from financial armagedon .

[trousers]

As part of his project fear he said he would trigger article 50 the very next day after the vote . It happened and he didn't . If that's not a lie, what is ?

A change of mind, maybe?

 

He said he wouldn't resign if the country voted Brexit . We voted Brexit and he resigned . If that's not a lie, what is?

A change of mind, maybe?

 

(and yes, I'm fully aware that playing the 'benefit of the doubt' card on here is an automatic admission of gross naivety according to the Saintsweb intelligentsia)

 

[badgerx16]

I see the unemployment rate has fallen from 5.6% to 4.9% and average weekly earnings increased by 2.4% over the may-july period.

 

What with the markets recovering, balance of trade deficit down, inflation stable and a whole host of other good news .... we are a long long long way from financial armagedon .

But we haven't actually tried to do anything yet to activate the exit process.

[hypochondriac]

So now we see that the plan for the United States of Europe is in full swing with a European defence force being talked about. Glad we won't be a part of that.

[Whitey Grandad]

I see the unemployment rate has fallen from 5.6% to 4.9% and average weekly earnings increased by 2.4% over the may-july period.

 

What with the markets recovering, balance of trade deficit down, inflation stable and a whole host of other good news .... we are a long long long way from financial armagedon .

 

The inflationary pressures from the fall in the £ are only just starting to feed through.

 

So now we see that the plan for the United States of Europe is in full swing with a European defence force being talked about. Glad we won't be a part of that.

 

Why?

 

Do you not think it better that we all combine our resources or are you hoping that we can keep any external threats to the other side of the channel?

[Johnny Bognor]

The inflationary pressures from the fall in the £ are only just starting to feed through.

 

Still not as bad as people expected.... still not as bad as so called experts predicted....

 

Remainers have been all doom and gloom since the referendum... remember this one?

 

Are you serious? This is far worse than 2008. The fall in the world's stockmarkets on Friday was $2,000,000,000,000 .

As i just said to Wes, you have no idea of the damage that you have caused.

 

The markets have fully recovered and the UK as a whole has so far withstood the referendum shock in terms of trade, employment, inflation etc etc.

The only real major change is a devalutation in the £, which has downsides, but has many positives too.

[Whitey Grandad]

Still not as bad as people expected.... still not as bad as so called experts predicted....

 

Inflation takes time to work its way through, which is what it certainly will do.

 

Remainers have been all doom and gloom since the referendum... remember this one?

 

 

The markets have fully recovered and the UK as a whole has so far withstood the referendum shock in terms of trade, employment, inflation etc etc.

The only real major change is a devalutation in the £, which has downsides, but has many positives too.

 

Which also means that the whole country - yes the whole country - is now worth about 10% less than it was before.

 

You can continue to stick your head in the sand if it helps you to ignore the realities of our situation. You can crow all you like now (difficult with your head in the sand) but we haven't even begun to leave yet but already our influence in the world has fallen to zero. America and China only saw us as providing access to Europe but since the vote as far as Europe is concerned we are in limboland.

[Wes Tender]

Which also means that the whole country - yes the whole country - is now worth about 10% less than it was before.

 

You can continue to stick your head in the sand if it helps you to ignore the realities of our situation. You can crow all you like now (difficult with your head in the sand) but we haven't even begun to leave yet but already our influence in the world has fallen to zero. America and China only saw us as providing access to Europe but since the vote as far as Europe is concerned we are in limboland.

 

What a bizarre notion, that because the £ Stirling is devalued against some other currencies, that the whole country is now worth about 10% less than it was before. How much were we worth before? Put a figure on it.

 

I'm afraid that you appear a little shrill in your language. We have not all of a sudden become pariahs in the World just because we chose to leave the EU. Many other countries have expressed a keen interest in arranging post-Brexit trade deals with us. It speaks volumes that the EU does not itself have trade deals with either the USA or China. Perhaps we will arrange one before the EU do. Regarding the limboland jibe, our trading relationship with the EU will contiue for two years after we trigger Article 50, so during that time at least, it is business much as usual.

[Whitey Grandad]

What a bizarre notion, that because the £ Stirling is devalued against some other currencies, that the whole country is now worth about 10% less than it was before. How much were we worth before? Put a figure on it.

 

I'm afraid that you appear a little shrill in your language. We have not all of a sudden become pariahs in the World just because we chose to leave the EU. Many other countries have expressed a keen interest in arranging post-Brexit trade deals with us. It speaks volumes that the EU does not itself have trade deals with either the USA or China. Perhaps we will arrange one before the EU do. Regarding the limboland jibe, our trading relationship with the EU will contiue for two years after we trigger Article 50, so during that time at least, it is business much as usual.

 

Nothing bizarre about it. All British companies and assets are now worth less than they were before, as is the British economy.

 

There is no chance that we shall have any significnat trade deals with anybody before the EU does. These other countries will want to settle the EU deals before they get round to us. The EU market is ten times the size of ours and if they were to settle with us first that would prejudice their EU discussions..

 

Regarding limboland I was referring to our political clout which is now non-existent. We cannot vote nor have any influence on what the EU does from now on. Legally we could try but in practice that would seriously mess up any future negotiations we might have with them.

[Wes Tender]

Nothing bizarre about it. All British companies and assets are now worth less than they were before, as is the British economy.

 

There is no chance that we shall have any significnat trade deals with anybody before the EU does. These other countries will want to settle the EU deals before they get round to us. The EU market is ten times the size of ours and if they were to settle with us first that would prejudice their EU discussions..

 

Regarding limboland I was referring to our political clout which is now non-existent. We cannot vote nor have any influence on what the EU does from now on. Legally we could try but in practice that would seriously mess up any future negotiations we might have with them.

 

Again, I question the assertion that all British companies and assets are worth less than they were before. A company or an asset is only worth what somebody is prepared to pay for it. Our exporters are having a great time of it as is our tourist industry, because their products cost less with a weaker pound. You would no doubt have it that if we had a very strong currency, and as a result our exports or hotels cost substantially more, thus meaning that shop floors were idle, or that hotels were half empty, then they would be worth more.

 

Fixing a trade deal is a bargaining process. Where it has been difficult to arrange trade deals between the EU and countries like China, the USA, Canada, etc., it has been because all member states of the EU have to ratify the deal, which as we know has taken ages because one member state or another tries to protect the self-interests of some major sector of their economy. A bilateral deal between just two countries would not suffer that problem, so could be concluded much more speedily. The contrary position to the one you take, is to acknowledge that nothing would incentivise the speedy conclusion to negotiations of a trade deal between the EU and another country than the prospect that the UK might beat them to it. Canada has taken years trying to fix a deal with the EU, so would they carry on waiting an indefinite time for a conclusion, or tie up a deal with us in the meantime on the basis that we were one of the main countries in the EU that they wanted to do business with in the first place?

 

So, we have lost clout in the EU? So what? We didn't have much anyway as was proven when we tried to reform it. It is debatable whether our clout in the rest of the World is diminished. I very much doubt it. In many ways now that we have taken the steps to achieve more self determination, our stock might well have risen in many areas and will grow as we prove that we can actually prosper outside of the EU.

[Whitey Grandad]

Again, I question the assertion that all British companies and assets are worth less than they were before. A company or an asset is only worth what somebody is prepared to pay for it. Our exporters are having a great time of it as is our tourist industry, because their products cost less with a weaker pound. You would no doubt have it that if we had a very strong currency, and as a result our exports or hotels cost substantially more, thus meaning that shop floors were idle, or that hotels were half empty, then they would be worth more.

 

Fixing a trade deal is a bargaining process. Where it has been difficult to arrange trade deals between the EU and countries like China, the USA, Canada, etc., it has been because all member states of the EU have to ratify the deal, which as we know has taken ages because one member state or another tries to protect the self-interests of some major sector of their economy. A bilateral deal between just two countries would not suffer that problem, so could be concluded much more speedily. The contrary position to the one you take, is to acknowledge that nothing would incentivise the speedy conclusion to negotiations of a trade deal between the EU and another country than the prospect that the UK might beat them to it. Canada has taken years trying to fix a deal with the EU, so would they carry on waiting an indefinite time for a conclusion, or tie up a deal with us in the meantime on the basis that we were one of the main countries in the EU that they wanted to do business with in the first place?

 

So, we have lost clout in the EU? So what? We didn't have much anyway as was proven when we tried to reform it. It is debatable whether our clout in the rest of the World is diminished. I very much doubt it. In many ways now that we have taken the steps to achieve more self determination, our stock might well have risen in many areas and will grow as we prove that we can actually prosper outside of the EU.

Ay, there's the rub. Not gonna happen.

[Wes Tender]

Ay, there's the rub. Not gonna happen.

 

We'll just have to wait and see, won't we? But what is as ridiculous as writing off the manager and Saints' season after a few matches, is writing us off as a country a couple of months after we voted to leave the EU.

[Johnny Bognor]

And yet still you miss my point. It isn't that there are federalist fundamentalists mouthing off about kicking Britain out. These people - like Juncker and Verhofstadt - are politicians from Benelux countries that have always been richly rewarded by EU membership. The point is, the fundamentalists - also including Michel Barnier, the negotiator for the Commission - are in all the controlling positions for negotiating Brexit. The German pragmatists are nowhere. This means there will be the strongest push by the EU to inflict maximum damage to the UK during Brexit negotiations and beyond. Brexiteer fantasies about German car makers not allowing this to happen are just that - hopeless fantasies.

 

“Brexit is not a matter of punishment. It’s not a matter of revenge,” Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament’s representative on Brexit matters, said during a debate in Strasbourg, France today.

 

Seems like they're softening quite nicely...

[Verbal]

“Brexit is not a matter of punishment. It’s not a matter of revenge,” Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament’s representative on Brexit matters, said during a debate in Strasbourg, France today.

 

Seems like they're softening quite nicely...

 

It's funny how you read that quote. I read it as the sort of thing an executioner says just before bringing down the guillotine.

 

Verhofstadt is a federal fundamentalist. He's also the European Parliament's point man for Brexit negotiations. He's not going to go soft - on the contrary, he thinks Britain out of the EU is a good thing. That's the problem: each bit of the EU has lined up arch opponents of Britain to do the negotiating. Brexiters, who've been in the habit of talking as if the UK can simply announce its terms, turn up to meetings and leave stuffed with UK-friendly agreements, are in for an awful shock.

[hutch]

Nothing bizarre about it. All British companies and assets are now worth less than they were before, as is the British economy.

If a company's share price goes up by 10% and the international value of the currency goes down by 10% how much does the value of the company change in foreign currency?

[solentstars]

It's funny how you read that quote. I read it as the sort of thing an executioner says just before bringing down the guillotine.

 

Verhofstadt is a federal fundamentalist. He's also the European Parliament's point man for Brexit negotiations. He's not going to go soft - on the contrary, he thinks Britain out of the EU is a good thing. That's the problem: each bit of the EU has lined up arch opponents of Britain to do the negotiating. Brexiters, who've been in the habit of talking as if the UK can simply announce its terms, turn up to meetings and leave stuffed with UK-friendly agreements, are in for an awful shock.

agree we will never get a better deal than the one we got and yes the uk economy has not collapsed .. we have not left yet but don,t forget since the out vote we have started quantum easing in fact devaluing our currency, which in the short term is good for exports but never worked in the 1970s,business is cutting back on investment big time and inflation and price rises are set to follow down the road . we had to go to 0.25 negative interest rate,so savers and your future pension funds are being hard hit and it looks increasingly likely that ford will shut its bridgend factory in a few years time and the Japanese will follow and one of Britain big success story's of building a uk owned world tec giant arm holding has been sold to the japs..still we can pretend that its all great and stick our fingers in our ears. its great for rupert mursdock and his ilk they must be laughing at those who swallowed their propganda and i see that the brexiters in the government are now looking at removing working peoples protection big time. yes its worked out well if your gullible to believe that. i preferred it when we had a stronger currency,less debt and a faster growing economy with plenty of investment coming in .

[hutch]

You are aware that the BoE has been implementing a programme of Quantitative Easing since 2009 aren't you?

[Whitey Grandad]

If a company's share price goes up by 10% and the international value of the currency goes down by 10% how much does the value of the company change in foreign currency?

 

Nice try

 

There are far more companies in Britain than there are in the FTSE 100 or even 200. And to answer the question, 1.1 x 0.9 is 0.99, that's the trouble with percentages

[Wes Tender]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/14/german-trade-expert-appointed-to-eus-brexit-taskforce

 

The German pragmatists are nowhere, because surely she couldn't possibly be one. She spent a year at Cambridge, so she probably hates the British establishment. She will have gone too far native to wish to protect the German trade interests of their major industries during the Brexit trade negotiations.

[Johnny Bognor]

Errrr I thought the Base rate was 0.25%. Not negative...

 

Meanwhile a UK company is about to acquire what was HP.

 

There is good and bad news all round, as there always is. Seems the blinkered and pessimistic remainers only focus on the negative. Maybe that's why they're so ****ing miserable

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[hutch]

Nice try

 

There are far more companies in Britain than there are in the FTSE 100 or even 200. And to answer the question, 1.1 x 0.9 is 0.99, that's the trouble with percentages

 

But if you're not selling to foreigners then there is no change in value. And 0.99 isn't 10% less than 1

[Whitey Grandad]

But if you're not selling to foreigners then there is no change in value. And 0.99 isn't 10% less than 1

 

0.9 is 10% less than 1.0

 

You have to be very careful when using percentage changes to be specific about what the change refers to. For example, a fall of 50% followed by a rise of 50% doesn't get you back to where you started.

 

You may not be exporting but your raw materials and energy costs will rise if they are imported

[ashnats]

can someone tell me what the positives are of Brexit? Apart from the 350m a week for the NHS I mean? Is it that the economy hasn't completely collapsed (yet)?

 

The only positive I have been able to find is that it is considered extremely unlikely that we will escape EU regulations relating to climate control, and that we won't be able to veto the more strict regulations anymore, meaning we will end up more environmentally friendly than if we stayed in.

 

Is there anything else?

[Wes Tender]

can someone tell me what the positives are of Brexit? Apart from the 350m a week for the NHS I mean? Is it that the economy hasn't completely collapsed (yet)?

 

The only positive I have been able to find is that it is considered extremely unlikely that we will escape EU regulations relating to climate control, and that we won't be able to veto the more strict regulations anymore, meaning we will end up more environmentally friendly than if we stayed in.

 

Is there anything else?

 

There were enough positives that a majority of those who voted in the referendum thought it worthwhile to vote to get out of the EU. I'm sorry if more of those positives didn't penetrate your psyche, but it isn't the Leave campaign's fault if some had their fingers in their ears during the Referendum debate.

[melmacian_saint]

I hope this Government can start by picking its friends in Europe. After seeing how eager the Germans and the French were to show the Americans how big they are with their new found European liberty (finally without the British double agents, they will say), it's time to start making some strategic trips around. Nordics, Dutch and Portugal would be my first picks.

And this probably won't please many, but the UK could even show some support to the Irish in their tax causes. Divide and rule.

[badgerx16]

.....but the UK could even show some support to the Irish in their tax causes. Divide and rule.

 

Putting 'divide and rule' in a paragraph mentioning the UK's relationship with Ireland is a tad insensitive, surely ?

[melmacian_saint]

Putting 'divide and rule' in a paragraph mentioning the UK's relationship with Ireland is a tad dangerous, surely ?

 

Well in this case I argue that from a political perspective it benefits the UK to be on Ireland's side, so if anything it fits well with the current environment of the Tory-Fine Gael governmental relationships.