Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Whitey Grandad]

I know exactly what you meant - and yes ‘we’ as in the UK government would have had no control over what might happen.

 

The EU Commission is the body in the EU which controls all. Member states have nothing to do with it, nor does the EU ‘parliament’. They all do what they’re told.

The Commission proposes. The Council disposes.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

EU to remove October 31st deadline?

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17870548.eu-withdraw-current-deadline-brexit-remove-no-deal-option/

[shurlock]

EU to remove October 31st deadline?

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17870548.eu-withdraw-current-deadline-brexit-remove-no-deal-option/

 

If the Brexiters are good at anything, it’s playing victim and blaming others. If the EU extends the deadline, it makes it harder to claim the EU forced the UK out on Oct 31.

[badgerx16]

If the Brexiters are good at anything, it’s playing victim and blaming others. If the EU extends the deadline, it makes it harder to claim the EU forced the UK out on Oct 31.

But they are saying that this proposal shows that the EU side is beginning to give ground.

[aintforever]

But they are saying that this proposal shows that the EU side is beginning to give ground.

 

Havn’t they always been prepared to give us more time?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

If the Brexiters are good at anything, it’s playing victim and blaming others. If the EU extends the deadline, it makes it harder to claim the EU forced the UK out on Oct 31.

 

Exactly. They're giving Boris the time and the chance to come up with his proposal in the time necessary.

[Trader]

The Commission proposes. The Council disposes.

 

The Commission proposes. The Council rubber stamps.

[badgerx16]

Havn’t they always been prepared to give us more time?

Yes, but you have to put the Brexiteer spin on things.

[Whitey Grandad]

The Commission proposes. The Council rubber stamps.

 

No they don’t.

 

It doesn’t work like that. The two don’t operate on n isolation. You’re just not used to cooperational politics. You said that the EU Commission was the body that controls all and that the other bodies do as they are told. This is so far from reality as to be laughable. But that’s what paranoia will do to you. It makes yo see things that aren’t there.

[hypochondriac]

No they don’t.

 

It doesn’t work like that. The two don’t operate on n isolation. You’re just not used to cooperational politics. You said that the EU Commission was the body that controls all and that the other bodies do as they are told. This is so far from reality as to be laughable. But that’s what paranoia will do to you. It makes yo see things that aren’t there.

I've been to the Parliament and they literally vote as their aides tell them to. Votes are done so quickly that they wouldn't have time to scrutinise all the legislation even if they wanted to.

[buctootim]

I've been to the Parliament and they literally vote as their aides tell them to. Votes are done so quickly that they wouldn't have time to scrutinise all the legislation even if they wanted to.

 

And that in a nutshell is why everyone says Brexiteers don't understand the issues. The Parliament and Council are two totally different things.

 

As Whitey says, power resides with the Council which made up of the ministers / Prime Ministers of the individual nations. Its they who approve or reject or veto. That's why the whole Brexit, get power back spiel is so risible.

[Whitey Grandad]

I've been to the Parliament and they literally vote as their aides tell them to. Votes are done so quickly that they wouldn't have time to scrutinise all the legislation even if they wanted to.

 

The Parliament represents the people. The Council represents the governments.

[Wes Tender]

Good news this morning, with Barnier saying that the EU will not axe the backstop. A clean WTO Brexit becomes ever more likely. I was growing worried that Boris would have us accepting the rest of the Withdrawal Agreement, the epitome of the bad deal that isn't as good as no deal.

[Whitey Grandad]

Good news this morning, with Barnier saying that the EU will not axe the backstop. A clean WTO Brexit becomes ever more likely. I was growing worried that Boris would have us accepting the rest of the Withdrawal Agreement, the epitome of the bad deal that isn't as good as no deal.

There is nothing “clean” about a no-deal Brexit. It would be the dirtiest, messiest, filthiest carnage that you could ever have the misfortune to endure.

 

But that is what you voted for.

[norwaysaint]

This has probably been discussed at length, but there are too many pages.

 

I was just wanting to hear, everyone keeps saying Johnson and his supporters don't want the backstop, but what is the alternative they actually do want? It never seems to be mentioned. Do they actually want the hard border, with all it entails, including going back on the peace agreement?

 

What are they pushing for? Serious question.

[badgerx16]

This has probably been discussed at length, but there are too many pages.

 

I was just wanting to hear, everyone keeps saying Johnson and his supporters don't want the backstop, but what is the alternative they actually do want? It never seems to be mentioned. Do they actually want the hard border, with all it entails, including going back on the peace agreement?

 

What are they pushing for? Serious question.

Boris is playing a game. He has previously said that the Irish border will remain exactly as it is now, disregarding the changes that must occur if we leave the EU. His position is that if the UK doesn't impose controls, Eire daren't.

Delusion or bravado ?

[saint1977]

If the Brexiters are good at anything, it’s playing victim and blaming others. If the EU extends the deadline, it makes it harder to claim the EU forced the UK out on Oct 31.

 

It’s what I would do if were Barnier. Call Boris’s bluff and show who the dogmatic extremists are. He will be stuffed because he had promised all of the UKIP infiltrators as well as the geriatrics in the shires that we leave on 31 Oct come what may. No Deal aftermath will be so messy he also knows yesterday was a mere foretaste of what is to come and he would literally be dragged out of the Downing Street by the public along with his poundshop Steve Bannon.

 

Would mean no more Tory Governments for a generation but on the very downside it might let Corbyn and Sturgeon in.

 

Aintforever, WG and Tim clearly know how the EU works and the Brexiteers don’t. Hey, not as if we have an unelected PM in this super democracy he have is it?

 

Norway Saint - The Brexiteers have never had a counter plan. They were all working under May, Davis allegedly didn’t even bother to turn up to half of the meetings with the EU.

[norwaysaint]

Boris is playing a game. He has previously said that the Irish border will remain exactly as it is now, disregarding the changes that must occur if we leave the EU. His position is that if the UK doesn't impose controls, Eire daren't.

Delusion or bravado ?

 

So Johnson wants to keep the border with the EU open? Isn't that at odds with his Brexit stance?

[badgerx16]

So Johnson wants to keep the border with the EU open? Isn't that at odds with his Brexit stance?

 

Post #13219;

 

BoJo said before the referendum vote that the Irish border would "remain absolutely unchanged".

"There's been a free travel area between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland for, I think, getting on for 100 years, there's no reason at all why that should cease to be the case."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35692452

 

"Theresa Villiers, then Northern Ireland secretary, said the border would “remain as free-flowing after a Brexit vote as it is today” and anyone suggesting otherwise was “scaremongering”."

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/04/18/news/irish-border-concerns-over-brexit-scaremongering-theresa-villiers-489126/

[norwaysaint]

Post #13219;

 

BoJo said before the referendum vote that the Irish border would "remain absolutely unchanged".

"There's been a free travel area between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland for, I think, getting on for 100 years, there's no reason at all why that should cease to be the case."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35692452

 

"Theresa Villiers, then Northern Ireland secretary, said the border would “remain as free-flowing after a Brexit vote as it is today” and anyone suggesting otherwise was “scaremongering”."

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/04/18/news/irish-border-concerns-over-brexit-scaremongering-theresa-villiers-489126/

 

Thanks!

[norwaysaint]

So no new border controls on goods or people entering the UK then, as long as it's through Ireland?

[badgerx16]

So no new border controls on goods or people entering the UK then, as long as it's through Ireland?

I think the proposal is that there will be a "technological solution" that precludes the need for physical infrastructure or deployment of manpower. The fact that nobody has any idea whether such a solution is possible within years, let alone 2 months, is irrelevant.

[norwaysaint]

I think the proposal is that there will be a "technological solution" that precludes the need for physical infrastructure or deployment of manpower. The fact that nobody has any idea whether such a solution is possible within years, let alone 2 months, is irrelevant.

 

So the plan is currently an open border with the EU then?

[ecuk268]

If we leave with no deal, the border will be a smuggler's paradise. There are nearly 200 crossing points and that's just public roads. Also numerous farm tracks.

 

During the Troubles the army tried blowing up a lot of these tracks only to find that the locals promptly filled them back in.

[norwaysaint]

If we leave with no deal, the border will be a smuggler's paradise. There are nearly 200 crossing points and that's just public roads. Also numerous farm tracks.

 

During the Troubles the army tried blowing up a lot of these tracks only to find that the locals promptly filled them back in.

That's how it sounds. There would be a relatively uncontrolled flow of people and cheap goods being smuggled in. Surely that would be terrible for UK businesses? I am genuinely confused about what they actually want in northern Ireland. The backstop, hard border and open border seem to be the only possibilities. Hard border is reversing the peace process, they rejected the backstop, so a ridiculous situation of keeping an open border is what they want. Surely Ireland will then have pressure on their EU membership if they keep an open border with a non EU country?

[Whitey Grandad]

So the plan is currently an open border with the EU then?

 

There is a Common Travel Area between the Republic of Ireland and the UK. This applies only to people and not to goods. Johnson doesn’t know the difference.

 

The longest international border in the world is between Canada and the USA at 8891km and has 119 crossing points. The Irish border is 499km and has effectively an infinite number of crossing points.

[buctootim]

This has probably been discussed at length, but there are too many pages.

 

I was just wanting to hear, everyone keeps saying Johnson and his supporters don't want the backstop, but what is the alternative they actually do want? It never seems to be mentioned. Do they actually want the hard border, with all it entails, including going back on the peace agreement?

 

What are they pushing for? Serious question.

 

The inevitable consequence of Johnson's actions - diverging from common standards and tariffs is a hard border. However he doesn't want to be blamed for that so he's saying he wont introduce it, knowing that the EU will be forced to

[buctootim]

One idea being floated is a temporary government of national unity with Hilary Benn as PM and people like Ken Clarke, Hammond, Caroline Lucas, and Rory Stewart as ministers. That sounds like a better option than any other party - for the next five years let alone a couple of months.

[Whitey Grandad]

One idea being floated is a temporary government of national unity with Hilary Benn as PM and people like Ken Clarke, Hammond, Caroline Lucas, and Rory Stewart as ministers. That sounds like a better option than any other party - for the next five years let alone a couple of months.

We should have had that three years ago.

[badgerx16]

Boris Johnson institutes a new think tank on solutions to the issue of the Irish border;

 

[buctootim]

Boris Johnson institutes a new think tank on solutions to the issue of the Irish border;

 

 

Who's the fat kid

Who's the fat kid

Who's the fat kid on the right?

 

Who's the fat kid on the right?

[LGTL]

The government are just starting to drop some proper information for post 31st October, including ‘Travel to Europe after Brexit’. So we should start to see some BENEFITS now and as long as we BELIEVE then everything is going to work out much better then before.

 

So reading through;

 

Stricter passport needs

EHIC not valid

Need for greater travel insurance

Need for a visa if staying over 90 days

Far greater admin and information needed to drive in the EU

Removal of free data roaming

Separate queues at immigration

Removal of the pet passport and a far more arduous process implemented.

 

Jeez, these BENEFITS are really starting to shine through!

[norwaysaint]

I have to admit that I'm relieved I don't live in the UK to experience all of that. I'll have to see if causes me enough problems that I need to get a Norwegian passport.

[badgerx16]

The government are just starting to drop some proper information for post 31st October, including ‘Travel to Europe after Brexit’. So we should start to see some BENEFITS now and as long as we BELIEVE then everything is going to work out much better then before.

 

So reading through;

 

Stricter passport needs

EHIC not valid

Need for greater travel insurance

Need for a visa if staying over 90 days

Far greater admin and information needed to drive in the EU

Removal of free data roaming

Separate queues at immigration

Removal of the pet passport and a far more arduous process implemented.

 

Jeez, these BENEFITS are really starting to shine through!

 

That is what comes when we "regain control of our borders".

[aintforever]

That is what comes when we "regain control of our borders".

 

Except the Northern Ireland border which will have zero controls.

[Wes Tender]

There is nothing “clean” about a no-deal Brexit. It would be the dirtiest, messiest, filthiest carnage that you could ever have the misfortune to endure.

 

But that is what you voted for.

Yes that's exactly what I voted for and want, and have wanted since Maastricht. As for your opinion on the aftermath, it is verging on the hysterical, based on no particular evidence, just pure conjecture, so I find it rather funny. You're almost a parody of Fraser from Dad's Army.

[badgerx16]

Yes that's exactly what I voted for and want, and have wanted since Maastricht. As for your opinion on the aftermath, it is verging on the hysterical, based on no particular evidence, just pure conjecture, so I find it rather funny. You're almost a parody of Fraser from Dad's Army.

There is as much conjecture on your side of the debate, similarly lacking in any form of tangible evidence.

[Wes Tender]

There is as much conjecture on your side of the debate, similarly lacking in any form of tangible evidence.

 

I don't disagree, so we're two of the more sensible ones. It isn't something we have done before, so anybody making statements about the potential repercussions and parading them as facts needs to be challenged. There will inevitably be some disruption.Those who talk in hysterical language about disasters, need to get a grip.

[shurlock]

I don't disagree, so we're two of the more sensible ones. It isn't something we have done before, so anybody making statements about the potential repercussions and parading them as facts needs to be challenged. There will inevitably be some disruption.Those who talk in hysterical language about disasters, need to get a grip.

 

A dog with Alzheimer’s has more sense than you Les. You’re probably the least sensible (and most ideological) Brexiter on here. And you’ve got some decent competition.

[badgerx16]

Is it hypocritical of BoJo to threaten to deselect MPs that vote against the Government ?

[rallyboy]

It's all a distraction from the fact that he isn't really negotiating because he has no plan.

He's just chatting vaguely and churning out soundbites to confuse the dim.

It's a no deal circus.

[Wes Tender]

A dog with Alzheimer’s has more sense than you Les. You’re probably the least sensible (and most ideological) Brexiter on here. And you’ve got some decent competition.

 

And you are the most conceited, arrogant, condescending and often juvenile of the undemocratic remoaners on here. And you've also got some competition, but frankly you're in a league of your own.

[shurlock]

And you are the most conceited, arrogant, condescending and often juvenile of the undemocratic remoaners on here. And you've also got some competition, but frankly you're in a league of your own.

 

Despite the fact that I’ve consistently argued against a second referendum (and that’s not necessarily undemocratic)?

 

So anyone who doesn’t accept a no deal Brexit is now undemocratic. You’re part of a cult Les, wake up pal

Edited 2 September, 2019 by shurlock

[Guided Missile]

BoJo's playing a blinder. No deal brexit, get rid of the Lib Dem infestation and greatly increase the Conservative majority at the next GE. A free trade agreement with the US, the EU on the back foot and the dream of the opening post on this thread, comes true.

 

I love this country...

[OldNick]

It’s what I would do if were Barnier. Call Boris’s bluff and show who the dogmatic extremists are. He will be stuffed because he had promised all of the UKIP infiltrators as well as the geriatrics in the shires that we leave on 31 Oct come what may. No Deal aftermath will be so messy he also knows yesterday was a mere foretaste of what is to come and he would literally be dragged out of the Downing Street by the public along with his poundshop Steve Bannon.

 

Would mean no more Tory Governments for a generation but on the very downside it might let Corbyn and Sturgeon in.

 

Aintforever, WG and Tim clearly know how the EU works and the Brexiteers don’t. Hey, not as if we have an unelected PM in this super democracy he have is it?

 

Norway Saint - The Brexiteers have never had a counter plan. They were all working under May, Davis allegedly didn’t even bother to turn up to half of the meetings with the EU.

In my general business life I deal with seriously wealthy and successful business people. The majority voted out and are very calm about our future. I mention my concerns but they believe it will be ok, but at first will be an initial mess. Generally I feel most of the general population are sick of Brexit and want a resolution and get on with it so that we can get on with our lives. At present if No deal doesn't happen we are going to go through another 3-5years of the uncertainty of politicians arguing for their own personal means. They are on indexed linked pensions and good salary so they dont care if it takes years, its a game to them not their business or job at stake. I respect Shurlocks knowledge on the EU as he does seem to be on the ball with the info,but the country is slowly bleeding to death and we need a resolution soon so that we can actually move on. Either we tear up the decision and flop back in( national embarrassment and disgrace, where we will be treated appallingly as we have lost our standing) or leave whether we have a deal or not. It is with trepidation I accept leaving but the population had a vote and that if you believe in democracy we have to do. There is no deal that all would be happy with and so we have to take the best that suits most.

[saint1977]

BoJo's playing a blinder. No deal brexit, get rid of the Lib Dem infestation and greatly increase the Conservative majority at the next GE. A free trade agreement with the US, the EU on the back foot and the dream of the opening post on this thread, comes true.

 

I love this country...

 

Let's become a vessel state of Donald Trump rather than the huge trading bloc on our doorstep we are in already in on beneficial terms. There's no GE yet so Boris is unelected bar a few UKIP entryists. If you think Trump can be trusted to keep his word, or that he is guaranteed to stay in power after 2020 your appetite for risk is clearly higher than most. I don't think Boris is guaranteed a majority either by a long chalk - can you honestly taking the ideological glasses off actually see Philip Hammond getting defeated say as an Independent candidate in a Remain voting seat? And the others as well?

 

Germany and France will be damaged by a No Deal Brexit but so will we.

[OldNick]

Let's become a vessel state of Donald Trump rather than the huge trading bloc on our doorstep we are in already in on beneficial terms. There's no GE yet so Boris is unelected bar a few UKIP entryists. If you think Trump can be trusted to keep his word, or that he is guaranteed to stay in power after 2020 your appetite for risk is clearly higher than most. I don't think Boris is guaranteed a majority either by a long chalk - can you honestly taking the ideological glasses off actually see Philip Hammond getting defeated say as an Independent candidate in a Remain voting seat? And the others as well?

 

Germany and France will be damaged by a No Deal Brexit but so will we.

fair point and the massive market of the EU was the reason I wished to stay in. We are also a large market of 65-70m people who the EU would like to deal with of course. I remember the UK before it had membership and it wasnt utopia I can promise you that. Membership of the EU has without doubt made us a more affluent society.

[Wes Tender]

Despite the fact that I’ve consistently argued against a second referendum (and that’s not necessarily undemocratic)?

 

So anyone who doesn’t accept a no deal Brexit is now undemocratic. You’re part of a cult Les, wake up pal

 

Of course, I didn't say that, did I? But in your typical MO, you take something said, twist it and then throw out an insult. The sort of stuff we Brexiteers are well used to from the Remoaners, who are frothing at the mouth in a crescendo of false rage as they realise that they are being backed into a corner, their options to thwart Brexit decreasing with every passing day.

 

As GM says, Boris is playing a blinder. Let's see what unconstitutional shenanigans the Commons can come up with, aided and abetted by Bercow, partial towards the Remoaner last ditch pantomime to come tomorrow.

[badgerx16]

BoJo's playing a blinder. No deal brexit, get rid of the Lib Dem infestation and greatly increase the Conservative majority at the next GE. A free trade agreement with the US, the EU on the back foot and the dream of the opening post on this thread, comes true.

 

I love this country...

Is the sun shining on Fantasy Island ?

[Wes Tender]

I don't think Boris is guaranteed a majority either by a long chalk - can you honestly taking the ideological glasses off actually see Philip Hammond getting defeated say as an Independent candidate in a Remain voting seat? And the others as well?

 

Hammond's seat was Remain, but the vote was as close to 50/50 as it could possibly be. I'm afraid that you just don't understand Conservative voters, especially those in the leafy Home ounty shires like Surrey. Apart from the referendum vote being split, so that many of the leave voters will desert him, he will no longer be the official Conservative candidate, so many traditional Conservative voters will also give him the order of the boot. The outcome also depends on whether The Brexit Party fields a candidate, and whether a proportion of the Remain vote switches to the Lib Dumbs. Labour are not likely to increase their vote there, so the Lib Dumbs or a proper pro-leave Conservative are the likely inroads against Spreadsheet Phil's support.