Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[badgerx16]

Ireland’s first World War veterans: Shunned' date=' ostracised, murdered. Hundreds of thousands of Irish soldiers returned home to a largely hostile country[/url]

 

If you actually read the articles you link you may find that sometimes they actually don't support your argument. That there was a degree of antipathy to returning WW1 veterans from Sinn Fein supporters in 1919 is hardly surprising, particularly as the Free State was about to embark on a bloody civil war, and as your article indicates a large number of the veterans actually joined the Republican militants

( And yet again I have to remind you that during WW1 Ireland was part of the UK, not an independent entity, and it remained a dominion until 1938 ).

[revolution saint]

Dear Ireland,

 

We forgave you for supporting the Kaiser in WW1, Hitler in WW2 and for murdering so many innocent UK citizens and leaders in recent history. We even helped to bail you out, when you messed up, a couple of years ago.

However, for the collusion with France/Germany over the NI border we do not forgive you. This is a vile land grab and an attempt to imprison us in the EU.

So understand that, when we boycott your products, no longer welcome your citizens to GB for work and have to inspect every one of your shipments, it's entirely personal.

 

Kind Regards

United Kingdom

p.s. Northern Ireland will be given a Freeport status going forwards, with a 5% corporation tax rate. You might need a new economic model.

 

Mate, you should absolutely post more often. I know it's not intentional but it's really very funny. Do you get very very angry at only specific things or do you do requests?

[OldNick]

I think you will find Sinn Fein did their best to help the Germans in WWII , but there were many other Irishmen who fought

[badgerx16]

I think you will find Sinn Fein did their best to help the Germans in WWII , but there were many other Irishmen who fought

A small nuisance perhaps, but GM is implying that the government and general population of Eire supported Hitler, which is pure fantasy.

[LGTL]

A small nuisance perhaps, but GM is implying that the government and general population of Eire supported Hitler, which is pure fantasy.

 

And also offensive to the good people of Ireland. But then again, JM is an utter cunt.

[buctootim]

I think you will find Sinn Fein did their best to help the Germans in WWII , but there were many other Irishmen who fought

 

Not all of Sinn Fein. The Republican movement in the 1930s and 40s was a very mixed bag of politics united only by a desire for independence. A useful parallel is Brexit - they might agree on leaving but not on much else.

[OldNick]

A small nuisance perhaps, but GM is implying that the government and general population of Eire supported Hitler, which is pure fantasy.

well I watched 'the eagle has landed' Im not sure if it was a documentary but that Irish bloke was trying to help the Nazis.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

So, an interesting day or so. Merkel has given BoJo 30 days to come up with a credible alternative to the backstop - and BoJo has accepted that challenge. Therefore, if he cannot come up with something, I presume he will admit that the Backstop is essential, and thus will present May's deal as the option to vote through parliament. If he doesn't present May's deal, then he will be the PM that looks to break the GFA with No deal.

[shurlock]

So, an interesting day or so. Merkel has given BoJo 30 days to come up with a credible alternative to the backstop - and BoJo has accepted that challenge. Therefore, if he cannot come up with something, I presume he will admit that the Backstop is essential, and thus will present May's deal as the option to vote through parliament. If he doesn't present May's deal, then he will be the PM that looks to break the GFA with No deal.

 

A tad optimistic reading of the situation.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

A tad optimistic reading of the situation.

 

There's nothing optimistic in there - trust me. I guess it's all on how we interpret what Merkel said. I'm also being very tongue-in-cheek.

 

There is no alternative to the backstop at the moment - we all know this.

Edited 22 August, 2019 by Unbelievable Jeff

[shurlock]

There's nothing optimistic in there - trust me. I guess it's all on how we interpret what Merkel said.

 

There is no alternative to the backstop at the moment - we all know this.

 

Not sure what you mean.

 

We might know that there is no alternative to the backstop (unless the EU truly caves); but the idea that Johnson will admit that the backstop is essential, having trashed it in the most scathing terms and won a leadership contest by promising to kill it is for the birds. Pragmatism may dictate one thing; but politically he’s painted himself into a corner. As I’ve said before, the populist tail is wagging the dog.

Edited 22 August, 2019 by shurlock

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Not sure what you mean.

 

We might know that there is no alternative to the backstop (unless the EU truly caves); but the idea that Johnson will admit that the backstop is essential, having trashed it in the most scathing terms and won a leadership contest by promising to kill it is for the birds. Pragmatism may dictate one thing; but politically he’s painted himself into a corner.

 

There are interpretations that she wasn't actually talking about re-opening the deal to remove the backstop and replace it, but more that there could be changes to the legal interpretation of the backstop. With Macron saying that the WA will not be re-opened, I'm assuming it's the second one.

 

Absolutely he has, hence why it was being said tongue-in-cheek. However, if he can't come up with an alternative, and goes down the hard border, he will lose support from the DUP and that brings about it's own problems for him. He's in big trouble.

[Plastic]

There's nothing optimistic in there - trust me. I guess it's all on how we interpret what Merkel said. I'm also being very tongue-in-cheek.

 

There is no alternative to the backstop at the moment - we all know this.

 

Perhaps optimistic given that Macron has told him to **** off.

An answer here is to give N Ireland back to the Irish, or at least commit to a referendum, which will likely result in a unity vote. I'm sure the EU (Ireland) would be keen.

From the British perspective, we deserve all the punishment we get after voting for such a simplistic idea with no concept of the fallout. Embarrassingly typical.

Edited 22 August, 2019 by Plastic

[Whitey Grandad]

There are interpretations that she wasn't actually talking about re-opening the deal to remove the backstop and replace it, but more that there could be changes to the legal interpretation of the backstop. With Macron saying that the WA will not be re-opened, I'm assuming it's the second one.

 

Absolutely he has, hence why it was being said tongue-in-cheek. However, if he can't come up with an alternative, and goes down the hard border, he will lose support from the DUP and that brings about it's own problems for him. He's in big trouble.

He's had three years to think of an alternative and has come up with nothing so what he can dream up in 30 days is unlikely to be convincing.

[buctootim]

It’s just a blame game. The government has made three incompatible commitments- to leave the customs union, have different tariffs and standards to the EU and keep the Irish border open. Johnson is trying to blame the EU for the consequences of that that rather than admit he’s promised a unicorn. What he’ll do is claim there is a technology based alternative which everyone with even a little knowledge knows is a lie. He’s banking on the headbangers believing him rather than the EU.

[rallyboy]

I believe Merkel may have been demonstrating her infamous sense of humour -

 

'yes Boris, as one of the main architects of Brexit and a very vocal critic of the previous administration and the EU, I'm sure you wouldn't have entered into this three years ago just to line your own pockets, and without a detailed plan - so I look forward to seeing all your grand promises kept, and solutions unveiled, in the next 30 days'....

[buctootim]

Exactly. She simply deftly handed responsibility for the Frankenstein turkey back to him.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

It’s just a blame game. The government has made three incompatible commitments- to leave the customs union, have different tariffs and standards to the EU and keep the Irish border open. Johnson is trying to blame the EU for the consequences of that that rather than admit he’s promised a unicorn. What he’ll do is claim there is a technology based alternative which everyone with even a little knowledge knows is a lie. He’s banking on the headbangers believing him rather than the EU.

 

Not sure even he'd be able to do that without spelling out what that plan is.

[shurlock]

Not sure even he'd be able to do that without spelling out what that plan is.

 

He likes to hide behind the findings of the Alternative Arrangements Commission:

 

https://www.prosperity-uk.com/aacabout/

[OldNick]

An answer here is to give N Ireland back to the Irish, or at least commit to a referendum,

I assume that is a joke? If you want to see a civil war like non before you will get one trying to do that.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

It’s just a blame game. The government has made three incompatible commitments- to leave the customs union, have different tariffs and standards to the EU and keep the Irish border open. Johnson is trying to blame the EU for the consequences of that that rather than admit he’s promised a unicorn. What he’ll do is claim there is a technology based alternative which everyone with even a little knowledge knows is a lie. He’s banking on the headbangers believing him rather than the EU.

 

Duplicate

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I assume that is a joke? If you want to see a civil war like non before you will get one trying to do that.

 

But if you see a hard border we'll likely go back to violence in NI and bombs on the mainland.

[OldNick]

:)Apparently once we leave the EU all our imports are going to cost a lot more according to the people who know and so our manufacturing costs will go up therefore the goods we try to sell to Eire will be a lot more than the EU ones. Problem solved lol

[OldNick]

But if you see a hard border we'll likely go back to violence in NI and bombs on the mainland.

not as much as if we try and let the South take over the North.

[buctootim]

But if you see a hard border we'll likely go back to violence in NI and bombs on the mainland.

 

Cross border smuggling of red / green diesel largely funded the IRA. Changing tariffs and therefore prices on the two sides of the border will create a whole new range of opportunities for smuggling, increasing the flow into their coffers.

[buctootim]

not as much as if we try and let the South take over the North.

 

Most loyalists voted remain and anyway care more about the economy and peace. I doubt there would be much unrest following a unification referendum.

[OldNick]

Cross border smuggling of red / green diesel largely funded the IRA. Changing tariffs and therefore prices on the two sides of the border will create a whole new range of opportunities for smuggling, increasing the flow into their coffers.

you cant close the borders of course as they are porous. Perhaps we should make NI a state like Vatican city ( perhaps not the best example with the religious aspect)

[OldNick]

Most loyalists voted remain and anyway care more about the economy and peace. I doubt there would be much unrest following a unification referendum.

I assume the whole of Ireland would et to vote on that? If only NI then no probs but

[buctootim]

you cant close the borders of course as they are porous. Perhaps we should make NI a state like Vatican city ( perhaps not the best example with the religious aspect)

 

The subtext of my point is that some kind of "alternative arrangements" based on trusted trader and technology wont work because even in unified customs union there were still some opportunities for smuggling. Increase the differentials and you'll increase the smuggling. A truck carrying boxes barcoded as Kerrygold wont be.

[buctootim]

I assume the whole of Ireland would et to vote on that? If only NI then no probs but

 

Not true anymore. the majority of loyalists over nationalists in NI is much less than it used to be. If a hard Brexit was a disaster its likely there would a majority for unification even in NI.

[buctootim]

 

Who's getting copy?!

[Plastic]

Not true anymore. the majority of loyalists over nationalists in NI is much less than it used to be. If a hard Brexit was a disaster its likely there would a majority for unification even in NI.

 

Exactly right, and interestingly the non-partisan, unaffiliated community now apparently outweigh the sectarians, and their appetite for unification has never been tested.

Nick, I think you are behind the times.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/15/how-the-neithers-could-decide-northern-irelands-political-fate

Edited 22 August, 2019 by Plastic

[aintforever]

not as much as if we try and let the South take over the North.

 

This, any attempt at unification would be complete carnage, much worse than the effects of any border infrastructure.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

It's just such a shame, as those that voted to leave are happy with the blood on their hands. Another reason they are treated with such disdain, that they would see innocent people die because they can't admit they were conned.

[OldNick]

It's just such a shame, as those that voted to leave are happy with the blood on their hands. Another reason they are treated with such disdain, that they would see innocent people die because they can't admit they were conned.

I voted remain as Ive stated many times before but at no time did any side mention that Ireland would become the central issue.

[badgerx16]

I voted remain as Ive stated many times before but at no time did any side mention that Ireland would become the central issue.

Perhaps because they knew it stood a chance of becoming the dominant point, and they lacked a reasoned solution, so it was simply swept under the carpet in the hope that nobody would notice until it was too late.

 

Edit;

BoJo said before the referendum vote that the Irish border would "remain absolutely unchanged".

"There's been a free travel area between the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland for, I think, getting on for 100 years, there's no reason at all why that should cease to be the case."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35692452

 

"Theresa Villiers, then Northern Ireland secretary, said the border would “remain as free-flowing after a Brexit vote as it is today” and anyone suggesting otherwise was “scaremongering”."

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/04/18/news/irish-border-concerns-over-brexit-scaremongering-theresa-villiers-489126/

Edited 23 August, 2019 by badgerx16

[ashnats]

I voted remain as Ive stated many times before but at no time did any side mention that Ireland would become the central issue.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/20/irish-pm-enda-kenny-border-warning-brexit-eu-referendum

 

The Irish were yelling about it but English media didn't particularly care at the time.

[aintforever]

I voted remain as Ive stated many times before but at no time did any side mention that Ireland would become the central issue.

 

As I have said before, the NI issue alone is reason enough to have another referendum.

[Guided Missile]

I doubt if I'll be able to sleep tonight knowing that I will be partly responsible for any sectarian violence in Northern Ireland, due to my vote to leave the EU. Thank God I didn't vote for Blair, because I would have had Iraqi blood on my hands as well....

[OldNick]

I doubt if I'll be able to sleep tonight knowing that I will be partly responsible for any sectarian violence in Northern Ireland, due to my vote to leave the EU. Thank God I didn't vote for Blair, because I would have had Iraqi blood on my hands as well....

lol

[Lord Duckhunter]

Shame nobody visited or spoke about NI during the campaign. If only the PM or his Chancellor had visited and spoke about it. Maybe the Home Secretary should of done. Failing that maybe the Irish Taoiseach should have penned an article. Maybe 2 ex pm’s could have visited and warmed us, maybe someone like Bill Clinton should have spelt it out to us. Not that the media would have reported it, there were zero reports or discussion over the border issue and nobody of any importance visited Ireland at all.

 

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-35673442

 

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/george-osborne-warns-of-hard-border-in-ireland-as-union-nipsa-backs-brexit-34775579.html

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-border-controls-are-inevitable-after-brexit-may-warns-1.2693758%3fmode=amp

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/20/irish-pm-enda-kenny-border-warning-brexit-eu-referendum

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36486016

 

http:// https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/dont-turn-inward-bill-clinton-urges-britain-stay-european-union

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited 23 August, 2019 by Lord Duckhunter

[OldNick]

Shame nobody visited or spoke about NI during the campaign. If only the PM or his Chancellor had visited and spoke about it. Maybe the Home Secretary should of done. Failing that maybe the Irish Taoiseach should have penned an article. Maybe 2 ex pm’s could have visited and warmed us, maybe someone like Bill Clinton should have spelt it out to us. Not that the media would have reported it, there were zero reports or discussion over the border issue and nobody of any importance visited Ireland at all.

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-35673442

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/george-osborne-warns-of-hard-border-in-ireland-as-union-nipsa-backs-brexit-34775579.html

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-border-controls-are-inevitable-after-brexit-may-warns-1.2693758%3fmode=amp

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/20/irish-pm-enda-kenny-border-warning-brexit-eu-referendum

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36486016

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/dont-turn-inward-bill-clinton-urges-britain-stay-european-union

 

 

 

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were those all leavers who were telling us or in the remain camp??

[buctootim]

Shame nobody visited or spoke about NI during the campaign. If only the PM or his Chancellor had visited and spoke about it. Maybe the Home Secretary should of done. Failing that maybe the Irish Taoiseach should have penned an article. Maybe 2 ex pm’s could have visited and warmed us, maybe someone like Bill Clinton should have spelt it out to us. Not that the media would have reported it, there were zero reports or discussion over the border issue and nobody of any importance visited Ireland at all.

 

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-35673442

 

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/george-osborne-warns-of-hard-border-in-ireland-as-union-nipsa-backs-brexit-34775579.html

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-border-controls-are-inevitable-after-brexit-may-warns-1.2693758%3fmode=amp

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/20/irish-pm-enda-kenny-border-warning-brexit-eu-referendum

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36486016

 

http:// https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/dont-turn-inward-bill-clinton-urges-britain-stay-european-union

 

 

Nice to see you admit that the consequence of leaving the single market and customs union is a hard border and Johnson's promise to keep it open is horse****. He'll have to break one of his promises so who do you think he'll sell out?

[LGTL]

Shame nobody visited or spoke about NI during the campaign. If only the PM or his Chancellor had visited and spoke about it. Maybe the Home Secretary should of done. Failing that maybe the Irish Taoiseach should have penned an article. Maybe 2 ex pm’s could have visited and warmed us, maybe someone like Bill Clinton should have spelt it out to us. Not that the media would have reported it, there were zero reports or discussion over the border issue and nobody of any importance visited Ireland at all.

 

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-35673442

 

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/george-osborne-warns-of-hard-border-in-ireland-as-union-nipsa-backs-brexit-34775579.html

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-border-controls-are-inevitable-after-brexit-may-warns-1.2693758%3fmode=amp

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/20/irish-pm-enda-kenny-border-warning-brexit-eu-referendum

 

http:// https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36486016

 

http:// https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/dont-turn-inward-bill-clinton-urges-britain-stay-european-union

 

 

 

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And look, the Irish issue is still here, exactly as it was before the EU vote. Exactly as many people predicted. The main sticking point to us having an orderly exit.

 

Exactly as every single Brexit voter chose to ignore/not care about.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I voted remain as Ive stated many times before but at no time did any side mention that Ireland would become the central issue.

 

But all the Brexiteers on this thread have maintained that they knew what they were voting for, and that they would vote that way again, even with that knowledge.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

“Make the lie big, keep it simple, keep saying it and eventually they will believe it,” Joseph Goebbels.

[shurlock]

Poor old LD’s having a proper mare - I love how he keeps on quoting remain, the losing side, project fear, the folk whose claims Brexiters repeatedly dismissed as pony and put zero weight on.

[badgerx16]

Shame nobody visited or spoke about NI during the campaign. If only the PM or his Chancellor had visited and spoke about it. Maybe the Home Secretary should of done. Failing that maybe the Irish Taoiseach should have penned an article. Maybe 2 ex pm’s could have visited and warmed us, maybe someone like Bill Clinton should have spelt it out to us. Not that the media would have reported it, there were zero reports or discussion over the border issue and nobody of any importance visited Ireland at all.

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-35673442

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/george-osborne-warns-of-hard-border-in-ireland-as-union-nipsa-backs-brexit-34775579.html

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-border-controls-are-inevitable-after-brexit-may-warns-1.2693758%3fmode=amp

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/20/irish-pm-enda-kenny-border-warning-brexit-eu-referendum

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36486016

 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/dont-turn-inward-bill-clinton-urges-britain-stay-european-union

 

 

 

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Shame really that Brexiteers ignored their warnings, dismissing them as more Project Fear.

[shurlock]

Fatboy's going for it.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/pm-boris-johnson-plans-to-ask-queen-to-suspend-parliament-from-mid-september-11795978

[badgerx16]

Fatboy's going for it.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/pm-boris-johnson-plans-to-ask-queen-to-suspend-parliament-from-mid-september-11795978

Have to admit this is a finesse of the highest order, and shows up the disastrous approach and tactics of the opposition, who have been more obsessed with fighting each other than presenting a united front, and should have seen this coming.

Looks like "no-deal" is coming, Cassandra is going to find out how accurate her prophesies will prove to be.