Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Lord Duckhunter]

Some of you remoaning clowns remind me of those Japanese solders found on remote islands still fighting the war 20 years after it ended .

[Verbal]

Simple-minded brexiters are oblivious to the warning signs. All those slapping noises coming out of May's cabinet, for example.

 

Davis claiming single market membership is 'improbable'. Slapped down.

 

Fox claiming British businesses - the only roadmap out of this mess - is 'fat and lazy'. Slapped down.

 

Johnson, bizarrely a senior cabinet minister resorting to social movementing a la Momentum. Slapped down.

 

Oh, and all journalists wanting a definition of Brexit (other than the ludicrously vacuous 'it means Brexit'). Slapped down.

 

It seems that whether you're the slapper or slapee there's an awful lot of panic, fear and confusion at the heart of government. What there isn't is a single coherent thought on how to put one foot on front of the other on this.

[badgerx16]

Some of you remoaning clowns remind me of those Japanese solders found on remote islands still fighting the war 20 years after it ended .

Nobody on the Brexit side of the campaign had a clue as to what this really meant, and probably didn't expect to win. Now that the electorate have called their bluff, the Government are having to cast around desperately to find the straws from which they can construct a "plan".

 

"Brexit means Brexit"; not just a load of 'pony', it's a bleeding shire horse sized pile of crap.

[Winnersaint]

Some of you remoaning clowns remind me of those Japanese solders found on remote islands still fighting the war 20 years after it ended .

 

Just asking, but if you were in face to face discussion with another human being with opposing opinions to you, which I might add they are completely in their rights to express, would you still resort to rather childish, triumphalist sneering and generally insulting rudeness to others?

 

See posts #1252, #1217, #1111 and #1137

[hypochondriac]

Just asking, but if you were in face to face discussion with another human being with opposing opinions to you, which I might add they are completely in their rights to express, would you still resort to rather childish, triumphalist sneering and generally insulting rudeness to others?

 

See posts #1252, #1217, #1111 and #1137

 

Hmm you have to say that neither side of this debate on here are being particularly civil or courteous.

[Wes Tender]

Quite. Not not the slightest clue. The utter brain-dribbling idiocy of 'hard' Brexiteers is astonishing. We should probably keep articles like this away from them.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/this-is-what-would-actually-happen-if-we-implemented-the-brexit-economic-plans-suggested-by-a7236816.html

 

No, let's have these contributions from the left-wing media adding to the debate. They provide some entertainment value with their shrill doom-laden scenarios, much as Campaign Fear did during the referendum debate. Many of their predictions of the immediate consequence of a Brexit vote have not come to pass, so let's not attach too much credence to what they predict for several months or years ahead.

 

No doubt you hang on their every word and accept everything they say as the gospel truth, but in reality of course, saying that X or Y will happen as a result of various courses of action taken by the Government is pure conjecture, so shouldn't be gloated upon as some form of evidence that those who choose to dispel it or dare to criticise it must be a bit thick.

 

Let's just take one little snippet, albeit an important one, to convey their thought processes and if it is accepted that their reasoning is flawed, then it should follow that there is a strong possibility that other conclusions they reach might also be flawed.

 

If Davis thinks single market membership is “improbable” it means these negative economic outcomes for the UK are all probable.

 

No, it doesn't follow that those negative economic outcomes for the UK are all probable. It is a bit like saying that because the weather forecaster said it would be cloudy, then it follows that it will be cold, or wet, or that it will snow.

[Johnny Bognor]

Quite. Not not the slightest clue. The utter brain-dribbling idiocy of 'hard' Brexiteers is astonishing. We should probably keep articles like this away from them.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/this-is-what-would-actually-happen-if-we-implemented-the-brexit-economic-plans-suggested-by-a7236816.html

 

Hey if you want to take the opinion of someone who left uni (after studying history) and worked straight for the independent (without any real world business experience), then crack on!!

 

His credentials are impeccable...

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/ben-chu-2859b694

 

Jeez, even I have more economic qualifications than this half-wit

 

 

 

Edited 12 September, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[buctootim]

No, it doesn't follow that those negative economic outcomes for the UK are all probable. It is a bit like saying that because the weather forecaster said it would be cloudy, then it follows that it will be cold, or wet, or that it will snow.

 

Jeez is there nothing you can follow adequately? If the weather forecast is for snow and ice then its improbable it will be sunny and warm. You follow the tortuous logic of a forecast yet?

[buctootim]

Hey if you want to take the opinion of someone who left uni (after studying history) and worked straight for the independent (without any real world business experience), then crack on!!

 

His credentials are impeccable...

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/ben-chu-2859b694

 

Jeez, even I have more economic qualifications than this half-wit

 

 

Think you're missing the point. There may be many things hes not qualified for - but he has spent the last 16 years reporting on politics & business, hanging around Brussels and Westminster.

 

He may not be qualified to advise on economic policy, actually run a business or carry out brain surgery - but commenting on what EU procedures are and what is likely to happen under different scenarios, absolutely. Probably few are better placed.

[Wes Tender]

Jeez is there nothing you can follow adequately? If the weather forecast is for snow and ice then its improbable it will be sunny and warm. You follow the tortuous logic of a forecast yet?

 

Absolutely typical of you to be incapable of understanding a simple analogy. I think you probably confused yourself by twisting it into something different.

 

But even then, you think that if there is snow and ice, it is improbable to have sunshine?

 

 

As a responsible ski tour operator we suggest that you lookout for sunburn, make sure you put suncream on to stop you burning and keep your skin covered up. The suns rays are much stronger at altitude so the risk of burning is higher. And, if you follow our suggestion then you can smugly look out for other idiots that have terrible sunburn and look stupid.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Now that the electorate have called their bluff, the Government are having to cast around desperately to find the straws from which they can construct a "plan.

 

 

What you mean the Government lead by a remainer and a government with more remainers than leavers in it .

[buctootim]

What you mean the Government lead by a remainer and a government with more remainers than leavers in it .

 

You're assuming that the cabinet are all conviction politicians who are espousing views they believe in rather than cynically saying what they think will advance their career. Who knows what any of them truly believe? How many of the 'remainers' were simply protecting their career by not going against the PM? How many leavers like Johnson just wanted to be party leader and he needed to create clear blue water between him and the other candidates?

[Lord Duckhunter]

It seems that whether you're the slapper or slapee there's an awful lot of panic, fear and confusion at the heart of government. What there isn't is a single coherent thought on how to put one foot on front of the other on this.

 

You mean the Government lead by a remainer and containing more remainers than leavers ?

[Lord Duckhunter]

You're assuming that the cabinet are all conviction politicians who are espousing views they believe in rather than cynically saying what they think will advance their career. Who knows what any of them truly believe? How many of the 'remainers' were simply protecting their career by not going against the PM? How many leavers like Johnson just wanted to be party leader and he needed to create clear blue water between him and the other candidates?

 

Oh right , I get it now . If there's criticism of the Government or something goes wrong , they weren't really remainers , they were secret Brexiters.

 

It's not really a surprise a remain Government is struggling , their whole campaign was a shambles , remain were incompetant and incoherent from the day the vote was called . People who are so wrong are hardly going to have a sudden conversion to getting things right

[buctootim]

Oh right , I get it now . If there's criticism of the Government or something goes wrong , they weren't really remainers , they were secret Brexiters.

 

It's not really a surprise a remain Government is struggling , their whole campaign was a shambles , remain were incompetant and incoherent from the day the vote was called . People who are so wrong are hardly going to have a sudden conversion to getting things right

Not at all. Its not 'taking sides' point. There are 30 odd ministers in the cabinet and you and I have no idea what most of them really believe. I think Davis is a genuine Brexiteer and probably Liam Fox, but the others, who knows? By contrast Boris clearly isnt imo, he was just angling for the top job and needed the Tory rights support. May I think may be a closet Brexiteer, but is sharper and better informed so knows what the consequences will be.

[Johnny Bognor]

Not at all. Its not 'taking sides' point. There are 30 odd ministers in the cabinet and you and I have no idea what most of them really believe. I think Davis is a genuine Brexiteer and probably Liam Fox, but the others, who knows? By contrast Boris clearly isnt imo, he was just angling for the top job and needed the Tory rights support. May I think may be a closet Brexiteer, but is sharper and better informed so knows what the consequences will be.

 

Indeed. That applies to both sides of the house. Corbyn never really supported remain, but had to be seen to be a remainer to advance his political career. And there was me thinking he was a conviction politician with principles, offering a new kind of politics.

[buctootim]

The EU will not give in to British demands for full access to the bloc’s single market unless London allows free movement of people, Ireland’s prime minister said Monday. Britain’s minister charged with negotiating Brexit, David Davis, said last week that it was pressing for a “unique” deal with the EU to restore sovereignty, reduce immigration by controlling its borders and boost trade with the bloc after the split. “Let me tell you that around the European Council table, that is an issue that will not be given in on,” Kenny said in an interview. Kenny said the British government did not appear to have a clear position on what form of Brexit it was trying to achieve.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-ireland-idUKKCN11I0RI

Edited 12 September, 2016 by buctootim

[OldNick]

Can somebody tell us what bargaining power we have with the Americans Chinese etc. They will see us coming to them, cap in hand and trying to look strong with them knowing full well that we need them. It will be like the lend lease at the start of WWII where we had to give away our military bases to the Americans for a load of dodgy and decrepid destroyers etc.

Churchill made a saying about 'the deal' at the time but off the top of my head I cant recall what it was.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Can somebody tell us what bargaining power we have with the Americans Chinese etc.

 

 

More bargaining power than some of the nations that have trade deals with them .

 

How are the TTIP negotiations going ?

[moonraker]

The Brexiters on here like Wes and Duckhunter continue the 'it will be alright on the night' argument despite all the very real signals that Brexit means an almighty f**kup. Not a single Brexit promise will be kept, except possibly the one about leaving the EU. Despite all the statements from post Brexit Brexiteers, the people who we will be negotiating with in the EU and around the world that are clear that we will not get the deals Brexit promised, that the £350 m will go to the NHS, that Irish citizens will not retain their free movement etc. Etc. they continue to claim that we are in position of strength and all will be well. Sorry you are wrong, I do not need any great intellect or education to know this just common sense and a dose of reality, two things Brexiters seem very short of based on their continued denial of what is actually happening.

[Whitey Grandad]

Oh right , I get it now . If there's criticism of the Government or something goes wrong , they weren't really remainers , they were secret Brexiters.

 

It's not really a surprise a remain Government is struggling , their whole campaign was a shambles , remain were incompetant and incoherent from the day the vote was called . People who are so wrong are hardly going to have a sudden conversion to getting things right

It's a mess because it was always going to be a mess no matter who ended up in a position of authority. The whole concept of leaving was so impractical that nobody could find a solution with which we could all work.

[Window Cleaner]

It's a mess because it was always going to be a mess no matter who ended up in a position of authority. The whole concept of leaving was so impractical that nobody could find a solution with which we could all work.

 

Absolutely. A leave vote was never considered possible, the referendum was merely an electioneering exercise to filch a few,but oh so decisive votes, from the independentists and hard right. There was no exit plan and as far as I can see there still isn't. However scaremongering was never the way to go. Still costs me 300£ a month though due to the exchange rate fall and I couldn't even vote. If we european long term expats had been able to vote the result may have been different as this was always going to cost us money, probably far more than anyone in the Uk...

Edited 12 September, 2016 by Window Cleaner

[Saint_clark]

I haven't really participated in this thread, but the last page alone isn't what I expected. The title suggests a discussion on where we go from here, not yet more arguing about who was right or wrong.

[Window Cleaner]

I haven't really participated in this thread, but the last page alone isn't what I expected. The title suggests a discussion on where we go from here, not yet more arguing about who was right or wrong.

 

This is the problem, there doesn't seem to be a way forward except to procrastinate to the maximum extent and wait until Hollande and perhaps even Merkel are voted out of office next year in the hope of getting more from their successors.

[buctootim]

This is the problem, there doesn't seem to be a way forward except to procrastinate to the maximum extent and wait until Hollande and perhaps even Merkel are voted out of office next year in the hope of getting more from their successors.

 

Its a vain hope though. Even the countries that May was probably counting on to act as a bulwark against France and Germany - like Ireland and the Czech Republic - have come out and said not a chance of the single market without freedom of movement and money in.

[badgerx16]

..... The title suggests a discussion on where we go from here........

 

That's fairly clear, up sh it creek without a paddle.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Not a single Brexit promise will be kept, except possibly the one about leaving the EU. Despite all the statements from post Brexit Brexiteers, the people who we will be negotiating with in the EU and around the world that are clear that we will not get the deals Brexit promised, that the £350 m will go to the NHS, that Irish citizens will not retain their free movement .

 

What a load of pony.

 

The U.K. Parliament will take back control . The British people will take back control , it is for them to shape the country for the next decades. If we don't like it, we will kick them out .

 

The nhs is run by a remainer & the PM is a remainer , therefore it is for them to decide what happens to the Brexit bonus of £350 million . Let's see if they spend it where the people want them to . You can't blame leave for the decisions Remainers make .

[Lord Duckhunter]

That's fairly clear, up sh it creek without a paddle.

 

 

Let's see where we are in 10 years and then compare our growth , employment levels and prosperity with the EU's. I know who my money's on .

[Wes Tender]

Let's see where we are in 10 years and then compare our growth , employment levels and prosperity with the EU's. I know who my money's on .

 

Mine too. By then, there will have been other exits following our lead and the collapse of the Eurozone.

[moonraker]

That's not one but two flying over the cuckoos nest. I like the way Duckhunter keeps getting, the remainers in government excuse in, it is not remainers in our, in control government, that are the problem but politicians around the world who have no particular interest or need for us outside of the EU. This whole shambles has been brought about by out of date 1950's Tory attitudes. An honourable and decent PM got it spectacularly wrong and has paid a very high personal price, sadly the rest of us will also pay a high price.

[Lord Duckhunter]

An honourable and decent PM got it spectacularly wrong and has paid a very high personal price, sadly the rest of us will also pay a high price.

 

Hahahahaha complete pony . " Honourable and decent " don't make me laugh . Dave " Brits don't quit" Cameron was an incompetent Blair tribute act . He's even following The Master's retirement plan , and stuffing his posh pockets full of cash .

 

There's no decency in lying , no honour in throwing your toys out of the pram.

 

Said he wouldn't resign as PM if he lost the referendum - lie

 

Said he'd trigger article 50 the next day - lie

 

Told his constituents that he'd serve a full term as their mp & stand again in 2020- lie

 

Like Blair his reputation will sink and sink because like Blair he was just a pr man . The worse type of Tory , down there with Grocer Heath. Thank god he's gone .

[trousers]

Hahahahaha complete pony . " Honourable and decent " don't make me laugh . Dave " Brits don't quit" Cameron was an incompetent Blair tribute act . He's even following The Master's retirement plan , and stuffing his posh pockets full of cash .

 

There's no decency in lying , no honour in throwing your toys out of the pram.

 

Said he wouldn't resign as PM if he lost the referendum - lie

 

Said he'd trigger article 50 the next day - lie

 

Told his constituents that he'd serve a full term as their mp & stand again in 2020- lie

 

Like Blair his reputation will sink and sink because like Blair he was just a pr man . The worse type of Tory , down there with Grocer Heath. Thank god he's gone .

I said to Lady Trousers on Saturday that I would paint the shed on Sunday.

 

On Saturday evening my mum invited us over for a BBQ on Sunday.

 

I decided to ditch the shed painting and go to the BBQ.

 

"Lie" or change of mind / plan?

[moonraker]

Hahahahaha complete pony . " Honourable and decent " don't make me laugh . Dave " Brits don't quit" Cameron was an incompetent Blair tribute act . He's even following The Master's retirement plan , and stuffing his posh pockets full of cash .

 

There's no decency in lying , no honour in throwing your toys out of the pram.

 

Said he wouldn't resign as PM if he lost the referendum - lie

 

Said he'd trigger article 50 the next day - lie

 

Told his constituents that he'd serve a full term as their mp & stand again in 2020- lie

 

Like Blair his reputation will sink and sink because like Blair he was just a pr man . The worse type of Tory , down there with Grocer Heath. Thank god he's gone .

 

Without to much effort you could find examples for every politician failing to do what they said they would.

[aintforever]

An honourable and decent PM got it spectacularly wrong and has paid a very high personal price, sadly the rest of us will also pay a high price.

 

This would be the guy who promised a referendum purely to get himself the PM job, then jumped ship when it didn't go his way leaving a cluster-**** of a government behind to pick up the pieces.

[Wes Tender]

I said to Lady Trousers on Saturday that I would paint the shed on Sunday.

 

On Saturday evening my mum invited us over for a BBQ on Sunday.

 

I decided to ditch the shed painting and go to the BBQ.

 

"Lie" or change of mind / plan?

 

Events, dear boy, events,

[buctootim]

I said to Lady Trousers on Saturday that I would paint the shed on Sunday.

 

On Saturday evening my mum invited us over for a BBQ on Sunday.

 

I decided to ditch the shed painting and go to the BBQ.

 

"Lie" or change of mind / plan?

 

Depends on whether they have burgers or steak and that American pale ale I like.

[Johnny Bognor]

Its a vain hope though. Even the countries that May was probably counting on to act as a bulwark against France and Germany - like Ireland and the Czech Republic - have come out and said not a chance of the single market without freedom of movement and money in.

 

I think you may need to consider the insight into negotiation tactics that I gave to me old pedigree chum.

 

Leaders are hardly going to say don't worry the UK will get exactly what they want. Pre negotiation, you set out your position. It's only when you get round the table that there could be movements in your position. Pretty basic negotiation tactics really...

[Window Cleaner]

I see that the Luxembourg Foreign Minister wants to expel Hungary from the EU. It really is becoming a free for all shambles

on many fronts. The Irish with their low taxes are now being told to toe the line over that, the Hungarians over refugee policy, I think the Polish are in some sort of trouble over some of their religious orders aren't they? It's gotten too big and too cumbersome to last very much longer in it's current state. Perhaps May is just waiting for an implosion.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I said to Lady Trousers on Saturday that I would paint the shed on Sunday.

 

On Saturday evening my mum invited us over for a BBQ on Sunday.

 

I decided to ditch the shed painting and go to the BBQ.

 

"Lie" or change of mind / plan?

 

 

Because saying you're staying as PM, will trigger article 50 , and will continue to serve the constituents of Witney is exactly the same as your domestic arrangements.

 

Been lied to by your MP or the PM , no biggie . We've all told our other halves we're going out for a couple ,but actually had 3 or 4 .

[aintforever]

I said to Lady Trousers on Saturday that I would paint the shed on Sunday.

 

On Saturday evening my mum invited us over for a BBQ on Sunday.

 

I decided to ditch the shed painting and go to the BBQ.

 

"Lie" or change of mind / plan?

 

But Cameron knew about his mums BBQ a year in advance and told Lady Trousers a few days before that if he was invited he would still paint the fence.

[Verbal]

Some questions intended for the three Brexiteers and May, struggling with the essentially anti-British consequences of Brexit. But perhaps our pet Brexiters here would like to have a stab at some answers? Or, more likely, wriggle out of the questions? (The questions are posed, by the way, by an experienced trade negotiator.)

 

 

1. Is it government policy that the UK will leave the EU Customs Union?

 

2. Is it the government’s intention to seek membership of the Single Market?



3. Will the government come clean about the increase in red tape which awaits exporters who want to continue selling their goods into the EU post-Brexit?

 

4. How will the UK negotiate new WTO schedules of commitments in areasonable timescale, given that this will require consensus of all WTO members, some of whom are likely to object?

 

5. How long does the government expect it will take to negotiate a Free Trade Agreement with the EU? Does it believe it can be achieved in the 2-year time frame of the article 50 negotiations?

 

6. What is the government’s plan to prevent a highly damaging hiatus between the end of the article 50 process and the commencement of an EU FTA?

 

7. What will the government do to protect UK interests against the risk that ratification of the EU FTA is blocked by EU Member States?

 

8. Will the government confirm its determination to avoid the so-called ‘WTO option’, given its unworkability and the Treasury’s estimate that it would reduce GDP by some 7.5%?

 

9. How will the government address the fact that third countries cannot enter into meaningful negotiations with the UK until the UK’s future relationship with the EU is clear and its WTO schedule of concessions agreed? What will happen to UK export markets during the hiatus in between?

 

10. What is the government’s estimate of the increase in food prices that would result from applying EU tariff levels to imports from the EU and losing access to preferential food imports under EU agreements with third countries?

 

11. Does the government intend to pursue an interim agreement which preserves the UK’s access to the Single Market while a comprehensive FTA is negotiated?

 

12. How many external trade negotiators and consultants does the government intend to recruit over the next two years, and at what projected cost?

[moonraker]

Some questions intended for the three Brexiteers and May, struggling with the essentially anti-British consequences of Brexit. But perhaps our pet Brexiters here would like to have a stab at some answers? Or, more likely, wriggle out of the questions? (The questions are posed, by the way, by an experienced trade negotiator.)

 

 

1. Is it government policy that the UK will leave the EU Customs Union?

 

2. Is it the government’s intention to seek membership of the Single Market?



3. Will the government come clean about the increase in red tape which awaits exporters who want to continue selling their goods into the EU post-Brexit?

 

4. How will the UK negotiate new WTO schedules of commitments in areasonable timescale, given that this will require consensus of all WTO members, some of whom are likely to object?

 

5. How long does the government expect it will take to negotiate a Free Trade Agreement with the EU? Does it believe it can be achieved in the 2-year time frame of the article 50 negotiations?

 

6. What is the government’s plan to prevent a highly damaging hiatus between the end of the article 50 process and the commencement of an EU FTA?

 

7. What will the government do to protect UK interests against the risk that ratification of the EU FTA is blocked by EU Member States?

 

8. Will the government confirm its determination to avoid the so-called ‘WTO option’, given its unworkability and the Treasury’s estimate that it would reduce GDP by some 7.5%?

 

9. How will the government address the fact that third countries cannot enter into meaningful negotiations with the UK until the UK’s future relationship with the EU is clear and its WTO schedule of concessions agreed? What will happen to UK export markets during the hiatus in between?

 

10. What is the government’s estimate of the increase in food prices that would result from applying EU tariff levels to imports from the EU and losing access to preferential food imports under EU agreements with third countries?

 

11. Does the government intend to pursue an interim agreement which preserves the UK’s access to the Single Market while a comprehensive FTA is negotiated?

 

12. How many external trade negotiators and consultants does the government intend to recruit over the next two years, and at what projected cost?

 

Now come on this is unfair, difficult questions are not allowed, you could at least of provided multi choice answers, let me help; a)'we don't know b) that's scaremongering c) it will be all right d) suck it up losers. No other answers are acceptable as they have't got a f**cking clue

[Johnny Bognor]

The questions are posed, by the way, by an experienced trade negotiator

 

Really??????

 

4. How will the UK negotiate new WTO schedules of commitments in areasonable timescale, given that this will require consensus of all WTO members, some of whom are likely to object?

 

Let us remind ourselves of a fundamental point: the UK does not need to negotiate access to the WTO. Like the EU, the UK is an original member of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) and a founding member of the WTO. The UK, thus, has rights and commitments in the WTO. Even if insanity triumphed and we didn’t get a withdrawal agreement from the EU – that they opted to cut their nose off to spite their face – the UK and EU would still have a deal. An automatic deal under the all embracing World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules. How? Because the UK and EU are both WTO members in their own right and the WTO specifies WTO members must offer each other ‘Most Favoured Nation’ (MFN) deals...

 

Let's hope this chap is negotiating on behalf of the EU!!!

[scotty]

Now come on this is unfair, difficult questions are not allowed, you could at least of provided multi choice answers, let me help; a)'we don't know b) that's scaremongering c) it will be all right d) suck it up losers. No other answers are acceptable as they have't got a f**cking clue

 

Given the complete and utter meltdown of the uk economy since the referendum, I'm sure you are correct.

[buctootim]

Really??????

 

 

 

Let us remind ourselves of a fundamental point: the UK does not need to negotiate access to the WTO. Like the EU, the UK is an original member of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) and a founding member of the WTO. The UK, thus, has rights and commitments in the WTO. Even if insanity triumphed and we didn’t get a withdrawal agreement from the EU – that they opted to cut their nose off to spite their face – the UK and EU would still have a deal. An automatic deal under the all embracing World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules. How? Because the UK and EU are both WTO members in their own right and the WTO specifies WTO members must offer each other ‘Most Favoured Nation’ (MFN) deals...

 

Let's hope this chap is negotiating on behalf of the EU!!!

 

Here's a little test - see what returns you get when you type in United Kingdom here https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/serv_e/serv_commitments_e.htm. There are whole rafts of exceptions and commitments which have been put in place since the founding of the WTO and /or Britain joined the EU. We are part of the EUs umbrella agreement to them. If we leave the EU we will no longer be under the EU umbrella and will have to apply and ratify separately.

Edited 13 September, 2016 by buctootim

[Johnny Bognor]

Here's a little test - see what returns you get when you type in United Kingdom here https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/serv_e/serv_commitments_e.htm. There are whole rafts of exceptions and commitments which have been put in place since the founding of the WTO and /or Britain joined the EU. We are part of the EUs umbrella agreement to them. If we leave the EU we will no longer be under the EU umbrella and will have to apply and ratify separately.

 

In practice, trade agreements almost always extend to cover broader subject matter than just tariffs and related matters falling within the scope of the EEC/EU common commercial policy. Where an external agreement contains provisions which extend beyond the scope of the common commercial policy or the EU’s other powers to conclude external agreements in its own name, it is necessary for the Member States as well as the EU to be parties to the agreement. This is called a “mixed” or “shared” competence agreement: where part of the competence to conclude the agreement belongs to the EU, but part of it remains with the Member States.

 

One particularly important series of agreements which involved mixed competence were the World Trade Organisation (WTO) Agreements which were concluded in 1993 as a result of the Uruguay Round Multilateral Trade Negotiations. This linked series of Agreements forms the bedrock of global trade.

 

Both the individual Member States including the UK, and the EU itself, are parties to the WTO Agreements. The respective legal powers of the EC (as it then was) and the Member States were ruled upon by the European Court of Justice in Op 1/94 Re the Uruguay Round Agreements [1994] ECR I-5267. The Court rejected a contention by the European Commission that the EC had across-the-board competence to conclude the WTO Agreements in its own name. Although the core provisions of the WTO Agreements relating to trade in goods fell within the EC’s exclusive competence under the common commercial policy, the Court ruled that other areas covered by the WTO Agreements relating to services (parts of the General Agreement on Trade in Services - GATS) and the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property (TRIPS) were outside the EC’s competence or were areas where the EC’s competence was shared with the Member States.

 

The upshot of this “mixed competence” scenario is that vis-a-vis other parties, the EC/EU is responsible for compliance with, and entitled to the benefit of, certain aspects of the WTO Agreements; while the Member States individually remain responsible for, and entitled to the benefit of, the remaining aspects. The boundary between EC/EU and Member State competences is not stationary: under the ECJ’s Lugano doctrine, the EU acquires external competence in areas where internal EU harmonisation occurs, and a significant shift in competence took place under the Lisbon Treaty which made the trade-related aspects of intellectual property part of the EU’s commercial policy. While this fluctuating boundary line may be confusing for other WTO members, it is in general accepted by them.

 

However, the consequence of this after Brexit is straightforward. The EU will cease to have any competence in respect of the UK’s trade or other external relations, and the UK will automatically assume rights and responsibilities in respect of 100% of its relationship with other members under the WTO Agreements. In addition, trade relations between the UK and the remaining EU (“the r-EU”) will cease to be governed by the EU treaties, and will automatically be governed by the framework of the WTO Agreements - unless of course a replacement trade agreement is negotiated between the UK and the r-EU which comes into force on exit.

 

There is no question of the UK having to leave the WTO or to re-apply for membership. The UK is one of the original founding members of the WTO, as laid down by Article XI(1) of the WTO Agreement

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Despite some rather vindictive noises coming from a Commission that increasingly resembles FIFA in the way it conducts itself, we have to hope that the pragmatists will triumph. Some fine tuning to the existing arrangements will be more straight forward and will be in everyone's interest than the political posturing of some of the EU's higher profile bureaucrats.

 

Do you really think that the French and the Spanish want to lose access to our highly productive fishing waters, the ones we gave away to join in the first place. Do the Germans want to lose out on their second biggest market for their cars. Do you think that the Irish can risk playing games with their biggest export market. Do you think the Dutch want to stop selling flowers competitively to Covent Garden. Will Danish farmers not be petitioning their government to protect their bacon exports. The list goes on and on. In fragile economic times for the region, a bitter divorce is in nobody's interest.

 

Hopefully Brexit will be seen as an opportunity to fix the EU not damage it further.

[buctootim]

In practice, trade agreements almost always extend to cover broader subject matter than just tariffs and related matters falling within the scope of the EEC/EU common commercial policy. Where an external agreement contains provisions which extend beyond the scope of the common commercial policy or the EU’s other powers to conclude external agreements in its own name, it is necessary for the Member States as well as the EU to be parties to the agreement. This is called a “mixed” or “shared” competence agreement: where part of the competence to conclude the agreement belongs to the EU, but part of it remains with the Member States.

 

One particularly important series of agreements which involved mixed competence were the World Trade Organisation (WTO) Agreements which were concluded in 1993 as a result of the Uruguay Round Multilateral Trade Negotiations. This linked series of Agreements forms the bedrock of global trade.

 

Both the individual Member States including the UK, and the EU itself, are parties to the WTO Agreements. The respective legal powers of the EC (as it then was) and the Member States were ruled upon by the European Court of Justice in Op 1/94 Re the Uruguay Round Agreements [1994] ECR I-5267. The Court rejected a contention by the European Commission that the EC had across-the-board competence to conclude the WTO Agreements in its own name. Although the core provisions of the WTO Agreements relating to trade in goods fell within the EC’s exclusive competence under the common commercial policy, the Court ruled that other areas covered by the WTO Agreements relating to services (parts of the General Agreement on Trade in Services - GATS) and the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property (TRIPS) were outside the EC’s competence or were areas where the EC’s competence was shared with the Member States.

 

The upshot of this “mixed competence” scenario is that vis-a-vis other parties, the EC/EU is responsible for compliance with, and entitled to the benefit of, certain aspects of the WTO Agreements; while the Member States individually remain responsible for, and entitled to the benefit of, the remaining aspects. The boundary between EC/EU and Member State competences is not stationary: under the ECJ’s Lugano doctrine, the EU acquires external competence in areas where internal EU harmonisation occurs, and a significant shift in competence took place under the Lisbon Treaty which made the trade-related aspects of intellectual property part of the EU’s commercial policy. While this fluctuating boundary line may be confusing for other WTO members, it is in general accepted by them.

 

However, the consequence of this after Brexit is straightforward. The EU will cease to have any competence in respect of the UK’s trade or other external relations, and the UK will automatically assume rights and responsibilities in respect of 100% of its relationship with other members under the WTO Agreements. In addition, trade relations between the UK and the remaining EU (“the r-EU”) will cease to be governed by the EU treaties, and will automatically be governed by the framework of the WTO Agreements - unless of course a replacement trade agreement is negotiated between the UK and the r-EU which comes into force on exit.

 

There is no question of the UK having to leave the WTO or to re-apply for membership. The UK is one of the original founding members of the WTO, as laid down by Article XI(1) of the WTO Agreement

 

Erm, thats just a cut & paste from Lawyers for Britain. How odd.

[buctootim]

Despite some rather vindictive noises coming from a Commission that increasingly resembles FIFA in the way it conducts itself, we have to hope that the pragmatists will triumph. Some fine tuning to the existing arrangements will be more straight forward and will be in everyone's interest than the political posturing of some of the EU's higher profile bureaucrats.

 

Do you really think that the French and the Spanish want to lose access to our highly productive fishing waters, the ones we gave away to join in the first place. Do the Germans want to lose out on their second biggest market for their cars. Do you think that the Irish can risk playing games with their biggest export market. Do you think the Dutch want to stop selling flowers competitively to Covent Garden. Will Danish farmers not be petitioning their government to protect their bacon exports. The list goes on and on. In fragile economic times for the region, a bitter divorce is in nobody's interest.

 

Hopefully Brexit will be seen as an opportunity to fix the EU not damage it further.

 

Highly vindictive? - you mean sticking to the agreements every one of the 27 nations, including Britain, signed up to? Spain has bigger and more productive waters than us, that our fleet accesses.

 

The odd thing about Brexiteers is they claim to value independence and self reliance but want the EU to give them everything they ask for yet offer nothing in return. Equitable deals which recognise the needs of both parties. Thats the real basis of trade negotiona Johnny. Not demanding everything and crying foul when it turns out Father Christmas hasnt delivered on the wishlist.

Edited 13 September, 2016 by buctootim

[Whitey Grandad]

Hahahahaha complete pony . " Honourable and decent " don't make me laugh . Dave " Brits don't quit" Cameron was an incompetent Blair tribute act . He's even following The Master's retirement plan , and stuffing his posh pockets full of cash .

 

There's no decency in lying , no honour in throwing your toys out of the pram.

 

Said he wouldn't resign as PM if he lost the referendum - lie

 

Said he'd trigger article 50 the next day - lie

 

Told his constituents that he'd serve a full term as their mp & stand again in 2020- lie

 

Like Blair his reputation will sink and sink because like Blair he was just a pr man . The worse type of Tory , down there with Grocer Heath. Thank god he's gone .

 

You really must learn what is meant by the term 'lie'. To state an intention which is not later fulfilled does not make it a lie. You cannot lie about something that has not happened yet.