Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Weston Super Saint]

 

Tallies with what we've been told over the last 6-12 months or so - Brexit is no longer wanted.

 

What a load of ********!

 

The electoral commission reported a turnout of 72.21% in 2016 for the referendum.

 

Whilst it has been reported that turnout was "up" against the 2014 EU elections (35.6%), it is only expected to get to around the 40% mark.

 

Your chart seems to be comparing the two events and stating that only 4% did not vote in the EU elections but voted in the referendum, whereas the difference is actually around 30%!

 

Lies, damn lies and statistics?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

What a load of ********!

 

The electoral commission reported a turnout of 72.21% in 2016 for the referendum.

 

Whilst it has been reported that turnout was "up" against the 2014 EU elections (35.6%), it is only expected to get to around the 40% mark.

 

Your chart seems to be comparing the two events and stating that only 4% did not vote in the EU elections but voted in the referendum, whereas the difference is actually around 30%!

 

Lies, damn lies and statistics?

 

Calm down love, it's based on 10,000 voters. It's a post vote poll. Otherwise, how would they be able to get all that information about previous votes etc?

[buctootim]

What a load of ********!

 

The electoral commission reported a turnout of 72.21% in 2016 for the referendum.

 

Whilst it has been reported that turnout was "up" against the 2014 EU elections (35.6%), it is only expected to get to around the 40% mark.

 

Your chart seems to be comparing the two events and stating that only 4% did not vote in the EU elections but voted in the referendum, whereas the difference is actually around 30%!

 

Lies, damn lies and statistics?

 

Reading before spouting off is generally useful.

 

That poll is looking at people who voted in the EU election, how they voted in the referendum and who they might vote for in a future general election. Its not complicated.

[badgerx16]

Didn't Gove, whilst education secretary, want "all children" to be "above average".

[shurlock]

Weston Super Mare in fine form again.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Weston Super Mare in fine form again.

 

Brexiters; The gift that keeps on giving.

[Wes Tender]

 

Tallies with what we've been told over the last 6-12 months or so - Brexit is no longer wanted.

 

You obviously either didn't read it very carefully, or failed to arrive at the correct conclusion because you didn't understand it.

 

Overall, 89% of Euro-election voters who voted Leave still want Brexit to happen – 55% of them with no deal – and 7% now say they want to remain. Meanwhile, 81% of remainers who voted last week say they still want to remain, with 15% now saying the best outcome would be to leave. Among all those voting in the European elections, 50% said they had voted to remain in the referendum and 45% to leave; now, 50% said they wanted to leave, 46% said they wanted to remain, and 4% didn’t know.

 

Based on that sample poll, more people would vote to leave now than did in the referendum.

[Wes Tender]

Brexiters; The gift that keeps on giving.

 

Oh, the irony. See above.

[saint si]

This looks like a recipe for a hung parliament...

 

 

Given that it would be suicide to go in to any kind of formal coalition with Farage, and Lib Dems unlikely to want to get in to bed with the Tories again any time soon, the likely outcome would be a "progressive" coalition with Libs/Labour/Greens, possibly propped up by SNP. Corbyn's worst left-wing instincts hopefully tempered by a more moderate influence.

 

That would almost certainly lead us to a second referendum.

 

Be a touch ironic if that's the main achievement of the Brexit party.

 

Of course, it's quite unlikely that the next Tory leader will call a GE any time soon, knowing that they are going to get annihilated.

[Wes Tender]

An interesting point I've just read, potentially skewing the EU Election voting figures in favour of Remain, one that deosn't appear to have been picked up by the leftie Remoaner media.

 

It seems that where comparisons are being made between the Leave and Remain votes in the 2016 Referendum and the EU Elections last Thursday, it is not a level playing field. In these EU elections, many of the 3 million + citizens of the EU 27 would have been entitled to vote here, whereas they weren't allowed to in the Referendum. OK, that 3 million + will have included children, some will have voted in their own homelands, some might even have voted for the Brexit Party. But the probability is that a still significant number will have voted in the UK to Remain in the EU, thus distorting the figures between Leave and Remain in Remain's favour. On that basis, the vote for The Brexit Party is an even more incredible achievement.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You obviously either didn't read it very carefully, or failed to arrive at the correct conclusion because you didn't understand it.

 

 

 

Based on that sample poll, more people would vote to leave now than did in the referendum.

 

True, I read that the wrong way round.

[benjii]

An interesting point I've just read, potentially skewing the EU Election voting figures in favour of Remain, one that deosn't appear to have been picked up by the leftie Remoaner media.

 

It seems that where comparisons are being made between the Leave and Remain votes in the 2016 Referendum and the EU Elections last Thursday, it is not a level playing field. In these EU elections, many of the 3 million + citizens of the EU 27 would have been entitled to vote here, whereas they weren't allowed to in the Referendum. OK, that 3 million + will have included children, some will have voted in their own homelands, some might even have voted for the Brexit Party. But the probability is that a still significant number will have voted in the UK to Remain in the EU, thus distorting the figures between Leave and Remain in Remain's favour. On that basis, the vote for The Brexit Party is an even more incredible achievement.

 

But don’t forget Brexit was voted for by the old and the thick and those groups die soonest.

[shurlock]

An interesting point I've just read, potentially skewing the EU Election voting figures in favour of Remain, one that deosn't appear to have been picked up by the leftie Remoaner media.

 

It seems that where comparisons are being made between the Leave and Remain votes in the 2016 Referendum and the EU Elections last Thursday, it is not a level playing field. In these EU elections, many of the 3 million + citizensh of the EU 27 would have been entitled to vote here, whereas they weren't allowed to in the Referendum. OK, that 3 million + will have included children, some will have voted in their own homelands, some might even have voted for the Brexit Party. But the probability is that a still significant number will have voted in the UK to Remain in the EU, thus distorting the figures between Leave and Remain in Remain's favour. On that basis, the vote for The Brexit Party is an even more incredible achievement.

 

Les it was only a few percentage points up on Farage and UKIP’s vote share in 2014 (and moderately below expectations). This despite the fact that Farage couldn’t have dreamed up a more favourable alignment of the stars. Ever. Another interpretation therefore is that he’s basically maxed out around a third, perhaps slightly higher as I’m feeling generous pal.

 

Let’s also see how the Brexit Party consolidates it’s progress and keeps its rabble of supporters together which will require producing a manifesto at some point and threading the needle between George Galloway and Anne Widdicombe.

[RedArmy]

Lib Dem’s getting that many votes in a general election

 

As soon as Labour move to a remain/people’s vote manifesto and the students are reminded the reason they are saddled with so much debt, the LD ratings will fall back to where they belong

[badgerx16]

An interesting point I've just read, potentially skewing the EU Election voting figures in favour of Remain, one that deosn't appear to have been picked up by the leftie Remoaner media.

 

It seems that where comparisons are being made between the Leave and Remain votes in the 2016 Referendum and the EU Elections last Thursday, it is not a level playing field. In these EU elections, many of the 3 million + citizens of the EU 27 would have been entitled to vote here, whereas they weren't allowed to in the Referendum. OK, that 3 million + will have included children, some will have voted in their own homelands, some might even have voted for the Brexit Party. But the probability is that a still significant number will have voted in the UK to Remain in the EU, thus distorting the figures between Leave and Remain in Remain's favour. On that basis, the vote for The Brexit Party is an even more incredible achievement.

Perhaps not :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48384000

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/25/eu-citizens-denied-vote-in-european-elections-to-sue-uk-government

[Wes Tender]

True, I read that the wrong way round.

 

Thanks for accepting that the poll shows that the Leave vote is strengthening, the Remain vote weakening.

[shurlock]

Thanks for accepting that the poll shows that the Leave vote is strengthening, the Remain vote weakening.

 

Keep telling yourself that pal. There is other methodologically more straightforward evidence suggesting quite the opposite.

 

Either way, the margins between remain and leave continue to be painfully narrow; what is clear, however, is that there is limited support for your preferred WTO/No Deal Brexit. It must be hard to wake up and smell the coffee. As Jeremy Hunt acknowledged today it would be political suicidal for the Conservatives to go down that route. I hope you do the right thing in the leadership contest

[Wes Tender]

Perhaps not :-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48384000

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/25/eu-citizens-denied-vote-in-european-elections-to-sue-uk-government

 

Oh look, the Guardian and the Beeb, the most vocal pro-remain leftie organisations trying their damnedest to make out that legions of EU citizens were denied the vote in the EU elections. Had Cameron been PM still, no doubt he would have asked that an additional 48 hours be added to the deadline, so that they could register their votes. The fact remains that they were allowed the vote in these elections, whereas they were not in the Referendum, so the chances are that even then a fairly substantial number of the 3 million + who were entitled to vote would have voted.

[Nolan]

 

Tallies with what we've been told over the last 6-12 months or so - Brexit is no longer wanted.

If you only count the people who voted in the 2019 election.

 

The actual data tables of all 10,000 shows 50% leave, 46% remain 4% undecided.

 

Take out the undecided that's 52% leave 48% remain.

 

[Wes Tender]

Keep telling yourself that pal. There is other methodologically more straightforward evidence suggesting quite the opposite.

 

Either way, the margins between remain and leave continue to be painfully narrow; what is clear, however, is that there is limited support for your preferred WTO/No Deal Brexit. It must be hard to wake up and smell the coffee. As Jeremy Hunt acknowledged today it would be political suicidal for the Conservatives to go down that route. I hope you do the right thing in the leadership contest

 

When Jeff claimed wrongly that the poll showed an increase in the Remain vote and a decline in the Leave vote, not a dicky bird from you to correct him. Now that the figures favour the Leave position, then all of a sudden they are unreliable.

 

Come on then, how about showing the other methodologically more straightforward evidence. Whilst you're about it, if it involves extrapolating anything from the EU Election figures, try to justify the turnout of only around 40%, that EU citizens resident here could vote, that even parties who as a whole vote one way or the other on the EU, have percentages of voters supporting the opposite position and that the whole situation is fluid because the two main parties are both undergoing substantial changes either in leadership or policy and both suffered unprecedented losses to a new party only 5 weeks old who won every region apart from London, which switched away from Labour to the Lib Dims.

 

Jeremy Hunt just botched his chances of the Tory Party leadership, not that he was anywhere near being a front runner anyway. I wouldn't be voting for him in a million years . What will be political suicide for the Tories, would be selecting the two candidates to be put in front of the membership from those who are not solid Brexiteers - like Hunt. If they do, then the Party will consign itself to the political wilderness for a decade or two. That's the Party suicide that they face, but which Hunt appears not to recognise, as he is out of touch with the grass roots, like many of them.

[badgerx16]

Oh look, the Guardian and the Beeb, ....

The Metro; https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/24/government-sued-discrimination-eu-citizens-denied-vote-9675615/

 

YAHOO news; https://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-citizens-denied-their-vote-124040805.html

 

MSN ; https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/uk-government-faces-legal-action-from-eu-citizens-who-allege-they-were-denied-right-to-vote/ar-AABWLV3

 

Huff ; https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/deniedmyvote-eu-citizens-turned-away-at-polling-stations-to-sue-government_uk_5ce9554ae4b00356fc222bec?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAA0WyrPoVoJ1p3BTbgEyLq2nASFkYvh6lnrVVbhd8bKqSLrdaBofCQf5iOxk1yB7mE-MmykiTyO4T4lf-APnePEQdu4my0OCiv1QiEQtknXzNDlLXAwK8dtPWmoiPFFZmPkdXkru_BcQkHD2qcdX_sDsL7y_9kPCJCMiIaVAnyES

 

Or perhaps the Daily Mail ; https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7062171/DeniedMyVote-EU-election-day-chaos-British-expats-vote.html

 

Or the Daily Express ; https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1131115/european-elections-uk-british-expats-postal-votes-eu-citizens-voting-uk-DeniedMyVote

[Unbelievable Jeff]

When Jeff claimed wrongly that the poll showed an increase in the Remain vote and a decline in the Leave vote, not a dicky bird from you to correct him. Now that the figures favour the Leave position, then all of a sudden they are unreliable.

 

Come on then, how about showing the other methodologically more straightforward evidence. Whilst you're about it, if it involves extrapolating anything from the EU Election figures, try to justify the turnout of only around 40%, that EU citizens resident here could vote, that even parties who as a whole vote one way or the other on the EU, have percentages of voters supporting the opposite position and that the whole situation is fluid because the two main parties are both undergoing substantial changes either in leadership or policy and both suffered unprecedented losses to a new party only 5 weeks old who won every region apart from London, which switched away from Labour to the Lib Dims.

 

Jeremy Hunt just botched his chances of the Tory Party leadership, not that he was anywhere near being a front runner anyway. I wouldn't be voting for him in a million years . What will be political suicide for the Tories, would be selecting the two candidates to be put in front of the membership from those who are not solid Brexiteers - like Hunt. If they do, then the Party will consign itself to the political wilderness for a decade or two. That's the Party suicide that they face, but which Hunt appears not to recognise, as he is out of touch with the grass roots, like many of them.

 

So, who are you going to vote for then?

[buctootim]

When Jeff claimed wrongly that the poll showed an increase in the Remain vote and a decline in the Leave vote, not a dicky bird from you to correct him. Now that the figures favour the Leave position, then all of a sudden they are unreliable.

 

Come on then, how about showing the other methodologically more straightforward evidence.

.

 

Three things.

1. The data is from a sample of those who voted in the EU elections. That is not the same and not representative of those who would vote in another referendum

2. People were given four choices - three leave and one remain. In a referendum it would be a binary choice - likely between remain and some negotiated deal. Not all of those opting for one of the leave choices would transfer their allegiance to another leave option.

3. Polls have consistently shown remain with a small lead over leave since around four months after the referendum - usually around 54:46% despite neither of the two main parties backing remain. If Labour officially back remain that lead is likely to widen. The question is whether it will get to 60:40, which is about the level needed to definitively settle the argument.

Edited 28 May, 2019 by buctootim

[buctootim]

Jeremy Hunt just botched his chances of the Tory Party leadership..... What will be political suicide for the Tories, would be selecting the two candidates to be put in front of the membership from those who are not solid Brexiteers - like Hunt.

 

Still listening to what you want to believe instead of what the facts tell you. According to the Ashcroft poll only 14% of Tory voters want no deal - that is the path of political suicide. Hunt is being uncharacteristically canny in distancing himself from those leave regardless candidates. The majority of the party and vast majority of the Tory MPs know that is a position they will have to retreat from.

Edited 28 May, 2019 by buctootim

[Nolan]

No, that amount think it would be the best outcome.

 

Its not the amount that could accept that outcome.

[buctootim]

No, that amount think it would be the best outcome.

 

Its not the amount that could accept that outcome.

 

You can say the same about them accepting remain

[shurlock]

When Jeff claimed wrongly that the poll showed an increase in the Remain vote and a decline in the Leave vote, not a dicky bird from you to correct him. Now that the figures favour the Leave position, then all of a sudden they are unreliable.

 

Come on then, how about showing the other methodologically more straightforward evidence. Whilst you're about it, if it involves extrapolating anything from the EU Election figures, try to justify the turnout of only around 40%, that EU citizens resident here could vote, that even parties who as a whole vote one way or the other on the EU, have percentages of voters supporting the opposite position and that the whole situation is fluid because the two main parties are both undergoing substantial changes either in leadership or policy and both suffered unprecedented losses to a new party only 5 weeks old who won every region apart from London, which switched away from Labour to the Lib Dims.

 

Jeremy Hunt just botched his chances of the Tory Party leadership, not that he was anywhere near being a front runner anyway. I wouldn't be voting for him in a million years . What will be political suicide for the Tories, would be selecting the two candidates to be put in front of the membership from those who are not solid Brexiteers - like Hunt. If they do, then the Party will consign itself to the political wilderness for a decade or two. That's the Party suicide that they face, but which Hunt appears not to recognise, as he is out of touch with the grass roots, like many of them.

 

Lord Ashcroft's analysis -a self-funded or unknown funded poll per Nat Cen- is principally about what the euro elections mean for party affiliation going forward. Of course, there is a much simpler way to gauge support for remain and leave and that's to directly examine aggregated poll of poll data. That data shows that remain is currently outperforming leave, though ultimately the margins continue to be very small. Hope that helps pal.

 

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-britains-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

 

To repeat, the numbers don't support a no deal Brexit. As such please do vote for a 'solid Brexiteer' to quote your charming little euphemism. I will sit back and enjoy the ride. You are now officially my useful idiot Les.

 

#usefulidiot

[Nolan]

You can say the same about them accepting remain

Indeed.

 

What you CANT say is only 14 % of Torys want no deal. Because that question wasn't asked in the poll.

[buctootim]

But don’t forget Brexit was voted for by the old and the thick and those groups die soonest.

 

Even sooner if you replace the NHS with expensive limited cover health insurance. Now there's a thought....

Edited 28 May, 2019 by buctootim

[shurlock]

You can say the same about them accepting remain

 

At the very least, you can say that 54% think that remaining in the EU or May's deal are the best outcomes. So even on the least generous definition (if you're a remainer), there is no majority for no deal. Leaving aside the don't knows (4%), only 27% per cent think no deal is the best outcome while 15% want to leave the EU with a different deal from the one Theresa May negotiated. As you say, it doesn't follow that all of the 15% would switch to no deal if the UK couldn't secure their preferred outcome of a different deal.

 

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/what-do-you-think-would-be-the-best-outcome-from-the-brexit-process/

Edited 28 May, 2019 by shurlock

[LGTL]

Agree Hunt is terrible and like Javid says whatever he needs to say to be popular. Calling the EU a Soviet Prison, as Foreign Secretary was among, if not, the most obnoxious pandering to the Tory base we’ve seen over the past three years. There’s something ironic about pleading to the party not to lurch to the right when he’s contributed so much to the febrile, swivel-eyed atmosphere.

 

Out of the candidates who can claim to be true Brexiteers, Gove is probably the best or least worst (he still has plenty of faults). He’s already promised to implement the Costa amendent and introduce free citizenship for EU nationals if he becomes PM, though that might just be clever politics. You’re closer to environmental issues than I am but he appears to have been a successful Defra SoS and has fessed up to the complexities of leaving the EU in a way that you’d never hear from the mediocre Raab or the unserious Johnson.

 

As long as he doesn’t touch Education again.

[Wes Tender]

Lord Ashcroft's analysis -a self-funded or unknown funded poll per Nat Cen- is principally about what the euro elections mean for party affiliation going forward. Of course, there is a much simpler way to gauge support for remain and leave and that's to directly examine aggregated poll of poll data. That data shows that remain is currently outperforming leave, though ultimately the margins continue to be very small. Hope that helps pal.

 

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-britains-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-a-second-eu-referendum-were-held-today-how-would-you-vote/

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

 

To repeat, the numbers don't support a no deal Brexit. As such please do vote for a 'solid Brexiteer' to quote your charming little euphemism. I will sit back and enjoy the ride. You are now officially my useful idiot Les.

 

#usefulidiot

 

So the answer to the question as to whether Ashcroft's poll is accurate or not, is to look at a poll of polls, and then to accept that the margins are small and that it is always accepted that in polls there is a margin of error of a few % each way.

 

Whether Ashcroft's poll was principally to establish the voting intentions of people going forward or not, what you cannot dispute, is the conclusion reached that leave was at the time of the poll in the ascendancy.

 

But ultimately, any sensible person accepts that the only true poll, is the actual election result, which in this case showed that the Brexit Party vote was a country mile ahead of the other party's vote and that was under proportional representation.

[shurlock]

So the answer to the question as to whether Ashcroft's poll is accurate or not, is to look at a poll of polls, and then to accept that the margins are small and that it is always accepted that in polls there is a margin of error of a few % each way.

 

Whether Ashcroft's poll was principally to establish the voting intentions of people going forward or not, what you cannot dispute, is the conclusion reached that leave was at the time of the poll in the ascendancy.

 

But ultimately, any sensible person accepts that the only true poll, is the actual election result, which in this case showed that the Brexit Party vote was a country mile ahead of the other party's vote and that was under proportional representation.

 

No Les. Poll of poll data is methodologically more robust and yes it shows remain has a lead - that is ultimately the question you were interested in when citing Ashcroft's poll data. Unlike you some of us have the intelligence and integrity to qualify our statements and acknowledge where margins are small - something you didn't do when you creamed yourself over Lord Ashcroft's poll results which also involve small(er) margins.

 

Anyway crack on pal - it's not in my interest to disabuse you of your idiocy or self-deception in case you realise you're playing with fire and start behaving rationally. You are my useful idiot after all

Edited 28 May, 2019 by shurlock

[shurlock]

No-deal Brexit impossible without parliament, says John Bercow

 

John Bercow, House of Commons Speaker, has warned Conservative leadership candidates that the next UK prime minister will not be able to force through a no-deal Brexit this autumn against the will of parliament.

 

Although several candidates have raised the prospect that the UK could leave the EU without a deal, Mr Bercow signalled that the Commons would be given the opportunity to halt such a move if it so wished.

 

Boris Johnson and Dominic Raab have said they would be willing to take the UK out of the EU without a deal on October 31 if they become prime minister this summer.

 

Mr Johnson told a conference in Switzerland last week: “We will leave the EU on 31 October, deal or no deal.” Mr Raab told the BBC on Sunday that if he could not secure a satisfactory deal with the EU, the UK would “leave on [World Trade Organization] terms in October.”

 

However, speaking in Washington, Mr Bercow indicated such a course of action would not be a decision for the government alone.

 

“The idea that parliament is going to be evacuated for the centre stage of debate on Brexit is simply unimaginable,” he said. “The idea the House won’t have its say is for the birds.”

 

Mr Bercow acknowledged that if a deal could not be finalised between the UK and EU by October 31 — and if no extension were agreed — then leaving the EU without a Brexit deal would be the legal default.

 

But he added: “There is a difference between a legal default position and what the interplay of different political forces in parliament will facilitate.”

 

Mr Bercow did not spell out how those forces could express themselves. But his comments will fuel expectations Mr Bercow could find a way for MPs to stage a vote allowing passage of a law to block a no-deal Brexit

 

Over the past six months, Mr Bercow has repeatedly been willing to give MPs the power to voice opposition to actions taken by Theresa May’s government on Brexit.

 

In particular, Mr Bercow insisted in March that Commons rules meant Mrs May could not keep putting her Brexit agreement to members of parliament after she lost a second “meaningful vote” on the deal.

 

Jeremy Hunt, the foreign secretary and another Tory leadership candidate, warned on Tuesday that a clear majority of MPs were against leaving the EU without a deal and that they would act to stop it happening.

 

In a newspaper article, Mr Hunt said trying to force a no deal Brexit might prompt a vote of no confidence in the government, leading to a general election.

 

“Any prime minister who promised to leave the EU by a specific date — without the time to renegotiate and pass a new deal — would, in effect, be committing to a general election the moment parliament tried to stop it,” he wrote. “And trying to deliver no deal through a general election is not a solution; it is political suicide.”

 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/e9740f30-8169-11e9-b592-5fe435b57a3b

[Wes Tender]

No Les. Poll of poll data is methodologically more robust and yes it shows remain has a lead - that is ultimately the question you were interested in when citing Ashcroft's poll data. Unlike you some of us have the intelligence and integrity to qualify our statements and acknowledge where margins are small - something you didn't do when you creamed yourself over Lord Ashcroft's poll results which also involve small(er) margins.

 

Anyway crack on pal - it's not in my interest to disabuse you of your idiocy or self-deception in case you realise you're playing with fire and start behaving rationally. You are my useful idiot after all

 

You seem to be going off at half-cock, as usual, mate. Read back and see that it wasn't me who posted those Ashcroft polls, I wasn't "creaming myself" at the result, I was only mentioning it at all because Jeff thought wrongly that it supported the mistaken position that you loser remoaners hold, that the Remain vote is now greater than the Leave vote. It didn't penetrate, obviously, that by stating that the only poll that matters is the actual election, that I don't have much faith in polls. They are very often wrong before elections, when voters change their minds when their pencils are poised over the ballot paper, but as the time before the election grows longer, the potential for them being wrong grows exponentially.

 

Who is deceiving themselves here? I'd say that it was you loser remoaners who cannot accept that you were well beaten in the referendum, well beaten in the EU elections, and lack the good grace to accept the defeat like any good democrats would. Talk about behaving irrationally. But if these polls give you some comfort, and smooth your fevered brow, then who am I to deprive you of the succour?

[scotty]

Sadly it has become very very difficult to discuss opposing views in today's politics. People just result to insults.

 

Indeed, as all the swivel eyed racist jihadists and traitorous remoaners on this very thread can confirm.

[badgerx16]

...... traitorous remoaners .....

Traiterous remoaner Quislings, to give us our full moniker.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You know you're on the wrong side of the fence when you are on the same side as Trump...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48487973

[badgerx16]

You know you're on the wrong side of the fence when you are on the same side as Trump...

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48487973

Trump, BoJo, and Farage - where's the 4th Horseman ?

[Weston Super Saint]

Trump, BoJo, and Farage - where's the 4th Horseman ?

 

Death? - She's the one that's leaving.

[sadoldgit]

You seem to be going off at half-cock, as usual, mate. Read back and see that it wasn't me who posted those Ashcroft polls, I wasn't "creaming myself" at the result, I was only mentioning it at all because Jeff thought wrongly that it supported the mistaken position that you loser remoaners hold, that the Remain vote is now greater than the Leave vote. It didn't penetrate, obviously, that by stating that the only poll that matters is the actual election, that I don't have much faith in polls. They are very often wrong before elections, when voters change their minds when their pencils are poised over the ballot paper, but as the time before the election grows longer, the potential for them being wrong grows exponentially.

 

Who is deceiving themselves here? I'd say that it was you loser remoaners who cannot accept that you were well beaten in the referendum, well beaten in the EU elections, and lack the good grace to accept the defeat like any good democrats would. Talk about behaving irrationally. But if these polls give you some comfort, and smooth your fevered brow, then who am I to deprive you of the succour?

 

Good grace to accept defeat? So you don’t recall Farage saying that if the result had gone the other way he would have carried on fighting it? This is too important to drop, which is why those who believe we should stay in the EU are not backing down.

[Wes Tender]

Good grace to accept defeat? So you don’t recall Farage saying that if the result had gone the other way he would have carried on fighting it? This is too important to drop, which is why those who believe we should stay in the EU are not backing down.

 

Do you recall our then Prime Minister immediately before the referendum stating that whatever the result was, it would be honoured? You're shamelessly attempting to justify your undemocratic stance by quoting one person. Don't you recognise how pathetic that looks? Next you'll be scratching your head and wondering why The Brexit Party did so outstandingly well in the EU Elections, when they didn't even exist just over 6 weeks ago. I'll tell you why; it's because people like you refuse to abide by the decision of a majority of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. I had to wait decades until I had an opportunity to vote to leave, whereas you want to overturn the decision before it has even been implemented. As I said, your position is pathetic and contemptible.

[buctootim]

 

Referendum leaflet. Ten years to sort out. No mention of leaving without a deal. Pretty clear.

[Whitey Grandad]

Do you recall our then Prime Minister immediately before the referendum stating that whatever the result was, it would be honoured? You're shamelessly attempting to justify your undemocratic stance by quoting one person. Don't you recognise how pathetic that looks? Next you'll be scratching your head and wondering why The Brexit Party did so outstandingly well in the EU Elections, when they didn't even exist just over 6 weeks ago. I'll tell you why; it's because people like you refuse to abide by the decision of a majority of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. I had to wait decades until I had an opportunity to vote to leave, whereas you want to overturn the decision before it has even been implemented. As I said, your position is pathetic and contemptible.

Cameron was not in a position to offer that promise nor to implement it, as we have found out. It was most likely unconstitutional too. It was for Parliament to decide on the outcome, not ‘the People’, whoever they were.

[badgerx16]

Do you recall our then Prime Minister immediately before the referendum stating that whatever the result was, it would be honoured? You're shamelessly attempting to justify your undemocratic stance by quoting one person. Don't you recognise how pathetic that looks? Next you'll be scratching your head and wondering why The Brexit Party did so outstandingly well in the EU Elections, when they didn't even exist just over 6 weeks ago. I'll tell you why; it's because people like you refuse to abide by the decision of a majority of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. I had to wait decades until I had an opportunity to vote to leave, whereas you want to overturn the decision before it has even been implemented. As I said, your position is pathetic and contemptible.

And do you think that if the result had been the other way round, that Farage would have simply turned his back on his pre-referendum statement concerning a 48/52 split and quietly disappeared into the sunset ? Of course he wouldn't.

[scotty]

And do you think that if the result had been the other way round, that Farage would have simply turned his back on his pre-referendum statement concerning a 48/52 split and quietly disappeared into the sunset ? Of course he wouldn't.

 

Assuming that to have happened, would you now be saying "yep, fair enough. We voted narrowly in a referendum to stay, but there's a vocal minority who still want us to leave so let's rerun the vote."?

[aintforever]

Do you recall our then Prime Minister immediately before the referendum stating that whatever the result was, it would be honoured? You're shamelessly attempting to justify your undemocratic stance by quoting one person. Don't you recognise how pathetic that looks? Next you'll be scratching your head and wondering why The Brexit Party did so outstandingly well in the EU Elections, when they didn't even exist just over 6 weeks ago. I'll tell you why; it's because people like you refuse to abide by the decision of a majority of the electorate who voted to leave the EU. I had to wait decades until I had an opportunity to vote to leave, whereas you want to overturn the decision before it has even been implemented. As I said, your position is pathetic and contemptible.

 

You do understand that if the people of Britain still want to leave the EU then the result of a second refurendum will not stop your beloved Brexit but help make it happen?

[badgerx16]

Assuming that to have happened, would you now be saying "yep, fair enough. We voted narrowly in a referendum to stay, but there's a vocal minority who still want us to leave so let's rerun the vote."?

But there is a conundrum there; if we had voted as narrowly to stay, then the status quo would have been maintained. Any momentum built up behind a rerun campaign, claiming that the result was too close for a definitive generational commitment, would start from the same effective position as the first poll. We most certainly would not be debating, 3 years down the line, on what form of 'Bremain' we were looking to implement.

In a way, the situation regarding the People's Vote is purely down to the mess at Westminster; too many options and possibilities have been proposed, and the continued lack of coherent leadership, and clarity on what Brexit might actually look like, has given second poll supporter's scope for optimism. If the Government had done it's job, and especially if Teresa May had not called her General Election, then the wind would have been taken from any nascent People's Vote campaign, as by now we would be so far down the road to severence from the EU that the scope for a straightforward rerun would not exist.

 

But, to answer your question, of course not - my position, and that of Wes, et al, would simply be reversed. ( After all, we are all true democrats ).

[saint1977]

Ann Widdcombe the latest Brexit Party leader to express backward and extremist views today. Every time they stray a millimetre from their pet topic something from the Victorian era comes out.

 

Backward party for backward people.

 

In other news, Andrea Leadenhead saying she can deliver a managed no deal Brexit. Yeah right, of course you can. Thankfully even the small numbers left in the Tory membership won’t vote for her. Comes to something when Gove looks the reasonable option in the Tory leader race. He actually recognises the impact of no deal from working with DEFRA on basics like our water supply.

[Wes Tender]

Ann Widdcombe the latest Brexit Party leader to express backward and extremist views today. Every time they stray a millimetre from their pet topic something from the Victorian era comes out.

 

Backward party for backward people.

 

In other news, Andrea Leadenhead saying she can deliver a managed no deal Brexit. Yeah right, of course you can. Thankfully even the small numbers left in the Tory membership won’t vote for her. Comes to something when Gove looks the reasonable option in the Tory leader race. He actually recognises the impact of no deal from working with DEFRA on basics like our water supply.

 

Yes, anybody who by dint of just voting to leave your beloved broken and sclerotic EU is thick, racist, xenophobic and a backward far right extremist. So say arrogant anti-democrats like you who express such bigoted views against the majority of their fellow citizens who had the audacity to vote to leave the EU.

 

Regarding the Tory Party leadership, you seem to have overlooked the fact that as it is the Party members who will elect the next leader from a short list of two candidates, the fact that a substantial majority of members now favour a clean break WTO option means that Gove will not emerge as leader. If the two candidates do not include a true Brexiteer, then the Tory Party is finished.