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Guided Missile

By Guided Missile,
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Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum  

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  1. 1. Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

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Sergei Gotsmanov

Sergei Gotsmanov

Posted
Posted
I'm amazed there are still people suffering under this delusion after three years. There is no unicorn pick and mix option. Member, associate via EFTA / EEA or Free trade agreement. Thems the choices.

 

Cameron clearly believed that they would be flexible, that would have been based on something. When it came down to it, he was undone by political posturing and arrogance from the EU. Now that we have voted to leave and the EU project has been undermined I believe that they would be more willing to consider a relaxed version of freedom of movement that they can still argue does not compromise their principles. I may of course be wrong but it would swing any new referendum and put the whole Brexit episode behind them. Would that be a price they would be willing to pay.

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Badger

Badger

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Posted
I'm amazed there are still people suffering under this delusion after three years. There is no unicorn pick and mix option. Member, associate via EFTA / EEA or Free trade agreement. Thems the choices.

 

This is where I expected to end up three years ago but we've allowed the EU to set the agenda in that time by progressing through the divorce arrangements etc. But not sure the EFTA/EEA would resolve the Irish border issue so it could be some years coming to this agreement.

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CB Fry

CB Fry

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Posted
Cameron clearly believed that they would be flexible, that would have been based on something. When it came down to it, he was undone by political posturing and arrogance from the EU. Now that we have voted to leave and the EU project has been undermined I believe that they would be more willing to consider a relaxed version of freedom of movement that they can still argue does not compromise their principles. I may of course be wrong but it would swing any new referendum and put the whole Brexit episode behind them. Would that be a price they would be willing to pay.
Cameron believed they would cave if he threatened a referendum and potentially leaving.They didn't blink.

 

Fox and Boris thought they would cave because of German Car Manufacturers and they need us more than we need them. They didn't blink.

 

Then May and Davis and co thought they would cave if no-deal "stayed on the table". They didn't blink.

 

Then they would cave at the last minute (ie in March) because "they always do a deal at the last minute". They didn't blink.

 

Maybe there's a trend there?

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Badger

Badger

Posted
Posted
Cameron believed they would cave if he threatened a referendum and potentially leaving.They didn't blink.

 

Fox and Boris thought they would cave because of German Car Manufacturers and they need us more than we need them. They didn't blink.

 

Then May and Davis and co thought they would cave if no-deal "stayed on the table". They didn't blink.

 

Then they would cave at the last minute (ie in March) because "they always do a deal at the last minute". They didn't blink.

 

Maybe there's a trend there?

 

Although our hand was weakened to some degree by MP's publicly taking the "no deal off the table".

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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
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Although our hand was weakened to some degree by MP's publicly taking the "no deal off the table".

 

Which might become interesting should we reach the October deadline - how does this position actually prevent the UK ceasing to be a member of the EU, as per the A50 submission. Have the EU taken 'no deal' off the table as well ? I don't think they would allow a further extension of A50.

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Saint_clark

Saint_clark

Posted
Posted
Farage in number 10? Not a ****ing chance mate.

 

Voting to leave the EU cos you're a bit racist is very different to voting for someone like that in a GE.

A very tolerant, well reasoned argument that is sure to sway many people to your way of thinking. People love being generalised and insulted.

 

Sent from my SM-J600FN using Tapatalk

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
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A very tolerant, well reasoned argument that is sure to sway many people to your way of thinking. People love being generalised and insulted.

 

Sent from my SM-J600FN using Tapatalk

You don't really need a well-reasoned argument to say Farage isn't going to be Prime Minister at the next election. He's not.
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Tamesaint

Tamesaint

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Posted

If Farage wants to be in No. 10 he had better try and become an MP first. He has failed in this 7 or 8 times and has side stepped standing in Peterborough.

 

Farage doesn't want to be in No. 10. He prefers to be some sort of global, roving right wing rent a gob sucking up to the likes of Trump.

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doddisalegend

doddisalegend

Posted
Posted
If Farage wants to be in No. 10 he had better try and become an MP first. He has failed in this 7 or 8 times and has side stepped standing in Peterborough.

 

Farage doesn't want to be in No. 10. He prefers to be some sort of global, roving right wing rent a gob sucking up to the likes of Trump.

I also suspect he'd be secretly gutted if we actually leave the EU he has made a great living out of being an MEP and being the anti European guy. The inability of parliament to sort out brexit has no doubt been great for his bank balance.

 

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
Didn’t realise there was another Rees Mogg. Annunziata Rees Mogg looks like Emily Blunt if she ran out of veins to shoot up in.

 

You're usually better informed. Not been following the EU Elections properly?

 

Is an MEP's appearance of importance to you? I didn't think that you were that shallow.

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
She has stood for the Tories in previous General Elections contesting seats that were winnable. In those days she called herself Nancy Mogg!!

 

I think that you might be misinformed. Call me Dave wanted her to stand as Nancy Mogg, but she insisted in standing under her proper name.

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
She's a Rees Mogg, standing as a Brexit party MEP.

 

She's fair game.

 

Why don't you make up some lurid fiction along Lady Chatterly's lover lines about her and her Romanian gardener. That would be about the level of debate we've come to expect from you.

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Saint86

Saint86

Posted
Posted
Went does it matter if anyone is reading or not?

 

Whats the point in just being nasty about people?

 

Debate the argument, but the personality.

 

Sadly it has become very very difficult to discuss opposing views in today's politics. People just result to insults.

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saint1977

saint1977

Posted
Posted
So, if No Deal loving Boris gets in, we'll see a vote of no-confidence and a Labour led coalition.

 

Means the Tories need to go down a route of selecting a leader who will rule out No Deal.

 

Welcome to no.10 Jeremy Hunt.

 

With overt remainers like Hammond and Stewart very unlikely, Hunt and Javid are the only two competent and proven Ministers working in the hottest kitchens the Tories have available. Otherwise they are into the flops e.g. Boris, Raab etc and also likely to wreck the party and the economy. Gove has a mixed record but allegedly a toxic rep in the Tory Party and Boris really did him in last time around.

 

Hunt or Javid is more likely to get something through Parliament - Labour doesn't seem to have any cohesion on Brexit, or on anything to be able to block - and both main parties are taking a hammering for not getting any agreement through. I agree with Hunt rather than the swivels on No Deal - that would be appalling for anyone of working age, whether it's big companies, SMEs, NHS (especially), Education etc. Can see the LDs cleaning up if there was an imminent GE in both Labour and Tory metropolitan seats, whereas I think regions like the SW have been changed by the long run for the referendum and will stay Tory/Brexit party whereas the region was a long term LD stronghold. Can see Southampton being split down the middle as well.

 

Problem the Brexiteers have - and I'm talking Tory and Labour here, not Farage as he doesn't have to live with the consequences - is that those voting Brexit Party in the most deprived wards, particularly in the north west and east, are doing so against austerity e.g. 'they're not doing enough for the people'. A lot of the small minority of politicians advocating No Deal are the same ones with an evangelical belief in a very small state, anti-NHS, N American model with minimal employee rights which creates a huge issue for them. It's probably they've flocked around Boris as he is a 'pinko' (Lord Duckhunter 2019) although no-one really knows what Boris's views actually are, and he might be able to make that wing of the Tory Party less toxic and more palatable to the wider electorate (not the 50k SELs in the Tory membership), whether Leave or Remain. I'm not sure where it leaves Labour MPs like John Mann with strongly-Leave supporting seats either, drifting far away from where the rest of the membership base is and their NEC seems stuck-fast and unable to take up a clear position.

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Tamesaint

Tamesaint

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Posted
I think that you might be misinformed. Call me Dave wanted her to stand as Nancy Mogg, but she insisted in standing under her proper name.

 

You are correct. It was David Cameron who tried to get her to shorten her name but she apparently resisted.

 

Perhaps she should have shortened her name as Cameron suggested. In 2010 when she fought Somerton and Frome for the Tories it ended up being a Lib Dem seat. There is now a Conservative majority of over 22,000 !

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
With overt remainers like Hammond and Stewart very unlikely, Hunt and Javid are the only two competent and proven Ministers working in the hottest kitchens the Tories have available. Otherwise they are into the flops e.g. Boris, Raab etc and also likely to wreck the party and the economy. Gove has a mixed record but allegedly a toxic rep in the Tory Party and Boris really did him in last time around.

 

Hunt or Javid is more likely to get something through Parliament - Labour doesn't seem to have any cohesion on Brexit, or on anything to be able to block - and both main parties are taking a hammering for not getting any agreement through. I agree with Hunt rather than the swivels on No Deal - that would be appalling for anyone of working age, whether it's big companies, SMEs, NHS (especially), Education etc. Can see the LDs cleaning up if there was an imminent GE in both Labour and Tory metropolitan seats, whereas I think regions like the SW have been changed by the long run for the referendum and will stay Tory/Brexit party whereas the region was a long term LD stronghold. Can see Southampton being split down the middle as well.

 

Problem the Brexiteers have - and I'm talking Tory and Labour here, not Farage as he doesn't have to live with the consequences - is that those voting Brexit Party in the most deprived wards, particularly in the north west and east, are doing so against austerity e.g. 'they're not doing enough for the people'. A lot of the small minority of politicians advocating No Deal are the same ones with an evangelical belief in a very small state, anti-NHS, N American model with minimal employee rights which creates a huge issue for them. It's probably they've flocked around Boris as he is a 'pinko' (Lord Duckhunter 2019) although no-one really knows what Boris's views actually are, and he might be able to make that wing of the Tory Party less toxic and more palatable to the wider electorate (not the 50k SELs in the Tory membership), whether Leave or Remain. I'm not sure where it leaves Labour MPs like John Mann with strongly-Leave supporting seats either, drifting far away from where the rest of the membership base is and their NEC seems stuck-fast and unable to take up a clear position.

 

Hunt has a toxic record in the NHS and Javid will just say whatever he needs to say to be popular. I'm a swing voter and there is no prospect of me supporting either of them. Tobias Ellwood was really impressive on the BBC on election night. He might persuade me to consider voting Tory again.

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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

Posted
Posted (edited)
Why don't you make up some lurid fiction along Lady Chatterly's lover lines about her and her Romanian gardener. That would be about the level of debate we've come to expect from you.

 

The fact you keep on bringing this up the more I feel I was on the correct lines. May have been a different ethnicity/race (Arabic or Jewish), but something has definitely happened.

 

I'm sure she's promised she won't do it again.

Edited by Unbelievable Jeff
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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted (edited)
Hunt has a toxic record in the NHS and Javid will just say whatever he needs to say to be popular. I'm a swing voter and there is no prospect of me supporting either of them. Tobias Ellwood was really impressive on the BBC on election night. He might persuade me to consider voting Tory again.

 

Agree Hunt is terrible and like Javid says whatever he needs to say to be popular. Calling the EU a Soviet Prison, as Foreign Secretary was among, if not, the most obnoxious pandering to the Tory base we’ve seen over the past three years. There’s something ironic about pleading to the party not to lurch to the right when he’s contributed so much to the febrile, swivel-eyed atmosphere.

 

Out of the candidates who can claim to be true Brexiteers, Gove is probably the best or least worst (he still has plenty of faults). He’s already promised to implement the Costa amendent and introduce free citizenship for EU nationals if he becomes PM, though that might just be clever politics. You’re closer to environmental issues than I am but he appears to have been a successful Defra SoS and has fessed up to the complexities of leaving the EU in a way that you’d never hear from the mediocre Raab or the unserious Johnson.

Edited by shurlock
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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
Agree Hunt is terrible and like Javid says whatever he needs to say to be popular. Calling the EU a Soviet Prison was among, if not, the most obnoxious pandering to the Tory base we’ve seen over the past three years. There’s something ironic about pleading to the party not to lurch to the right when he’s contributed so much to the febrile, swivel-eyed atmosphere.

 

Out of the candidates who can claim to be true Brexiteers, Gove is probably the best or least worst (he still has plenty of faults). He’s already promised to implement the Costa amendent and introduce free citizenship for EU nationals if he becomes PM, though that might just be clever politics. You’re closer to environmental issues than I am but he appears to have been a successful Defra SoS and has fessed up to the complexities of leaving the EU in a way that you’d never hear from the mediocre Raab or the unserious Johnson.

 

Agree about Gove. He's very able and deserves to be a minister, I'm just not sure I trust him though.

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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

Posted
Posted
Agree Hunt is terrible and like Javid says whatever he needs to say to be popular. Calling the EU a Soviet Prison was among, if not, the most obnoxious pandering to the Tory base we’ve seen over the past three years. There’s something ironic about pleading to the party not to lurch to the right when he’s contributed so much to the febrile, swivel-eyed atmosphere.

 

Out of the candidates who can claim to be true Brexiteers, Gove is probably the best or least worst (he still has plenty of faults). He’s already promised to implement the Costa amendent and introduce free citizenship for EU nationals if he becomes PM, though that might just be clever politics. You’re closer to environmental issues than I am but he appears to have been a successful Defra SoS and has fessed up to the complexities of leaving the EU in a way that you’d never hear from the mediocre Raab or the unserious Johnson.

 

But he's hated internally. He is, by far, the best speaker the Tories have. Certainly more Hague than Howard.

 

Has it been long enough since he was education secretary as well, to convince any voters down the line?

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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

Posted
Posted
I'm actually embarrassed to be a remain voter.

 

Bunch of bed wetting bad losers.

 

Looks like Cabbage Face has already voted for a second time...

 

I voted leave because I ate lots of crayons in that morning.

 

Well long live democracy, and thats the very reason the EU is a horrid organisation. How dare the people that pay the taxes have a say in how the country is run.

 

Serves old Cameron and the remain lot right for being so cocky. That was half the problem.

 

This is the exact reason I voted leave.
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Sheaf Saint

Sheaf Saint

Posted
Posted
Agree Hunt is terrible and like Javid says whatever he needs to say to be popular. Calling the EU a Soviet Prison was among, if not, the most obnoxious pandering to the Tory base we’ve seen over the past three years. There’s something ironic about pleading to the party not to lurch to the right when he’s contributed so much to the febrile, swivel-eyed atmosphere.

 

Out of the candidates who can claim to be true Brexiteers, Gove is probably the best or least worst (he still has plenty of faults). He’s already promised to implement the Costa amendent and introduce free citizenship for EU nationals if he becomes PM, though that might just be clever politics. You’re closer to environmental issues than I am but he appears to have been a successful Defra SoS and has fessed up to the complexities of leaving the EU in a way that you’d never hear from the mediocre Raab or the unserious Johnson.

 

As an employee of an organisation under the Defra umbrella, I can confirm that most people here are in agreement that he has been surprisingly effective and even inspiring. But then, given who he replaced, it wasn't hard to look good in comparison.

 

I can't believe I'm actually finding myself wanting him to get the job now, as he would appear to be the least worst option. And even more unbelievably, I find myself preferring that he stay on at Defra because the list of potential replacements is horrifying.

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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted
As an employee of an organisation under the Defra umbrella, I can confirm that most people here are in agreement that he has been surprisingly effective and even inspiring. But then, given who he replaced, it wasn't hard to look good in comparison.

 

I can't believe I'm actually finding myself wanting him to get the job now, as he would appear to be the least worst option. And even more unbelievably, I find myself preferring that he stay on at Defra because the list of potential replacements is horrifying.

 

Very interesting insight.

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
As an employee of an organisation under the Defra umbrella, I can confirm that most people here are in agreement that he has been surprisingly effective and even inspiring. But then, given who he replaced, it wasn't hard to look good in comparison.

 

I can't believe I'm actually finding myself wanting him to get the job now, as he would appear to be the least worst option. And even more unbelievably, I find myself preferring that he stay on at Defra because the list of potential replacements is horrifying.

 

I think he's competent in a management sense - he gets things done. He's also clearly highly intelligent. The problem with him is that he has a really idiosyncratic collection of views. At DEFRA he's on the money. At education he was more minister for the 19th century than Rees-Mogg.

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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

Posted
Posted
I think he's competent in a management sense - he gets things done. He's also clearly highly intelligent. The problem with him is that he has a really idiosyncratic collection of views. At DEFRA he's on the money. At education he was more minister for the 19th century than Rees-Mogg.

 

He does still have a lot of support in the schools community, weirdly, because he expanded the academy programme and gets a lot of support for that.

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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted
I think he's competent in a management sense - he gets things done. He's also clearly highly intelligent. The problem with him is that he has a really idiosyncratic collection of views. At DEFRA he's on the money. At education he was more minister for the 19th century than Rees-Mogg.

 

True. He has a certain romantic, anti-utilitarian view of the world that would mesh well with some departments e.g. Defra but appear outdated in others e.g. DoE.

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
He does still have a lot of support in the schools community, weirdly, because he expanded the academy programme and gets a lot of support for that.

 

I guess my views are coloured by my ex wife and some of her friends - all primary school teachers. He brought in fact based learning and SATS for younger children which most teachers of the under 8s saw as counter productive and regressive

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Sheaf Saint

Sheaf Saint

Posted
Posted
I think he's competent in a management sense - he gets things done. He's also clearly highly intelligent. The problem with him is that he has a really idiosyncratic collection of views. At DEFRA he's on the money. At education he was more minister for the 19th century than Rees-Mogg.

 

Yep, agreed. He passionately believed he could change education for the better, and ended up becoming the most despised education secretary in history because his ideas were archaic.

 

At Defra, he has proven to be effective because he appears to be just as passionate about the environment. And he also seems to be willing to listen to expert advice, and get involved where he sees necessary. For example, his intervention into the scandalous removal of Sheffield's street trees by a profit-making organisation sub-contracted by the council proved to be decisive in the local effort to stop it. And following his interest in that issue, he has now announced a massive urban tree-planting program across the country.

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Unbelievable Jeff

Unbelievable Jeff

Posted
Posted
I guess my views are coloured by my ex wife and some of her friends - all primary school teachers. He brought in fact based learning and SATS for younger children which most teachers of the under 8s saw as counter productive and regressive

 

I'm not defending him, by any means, more that I know he has a loyal base of supporters from his work in that job.

 

Those that I know in the education sector, however, dislike him.

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