Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Unbelievable Jeff]

The knife murders in London eclipse all other violent crime in EU countries so they understandably grab the crime headlines. The murder rate in London now even exceeds that in New York. You have to travel outside the EU to find other cities as violent as London.

 

What an utter crock of ****. Go find me some statistics on this and we'll talk. Otherwise, you're just another sheep that follows what the ****ing media tells you. Get a ****ing opinion based on fact, instead of regurgitating what you get told.

[egg]

EU says it would not open talks with UK after no-deal Brexit until it agrees to divorce bill and Irish backstop

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-eu-juncker-irish-border-backstop-theresa-may-a8852756.html

 

I think most people knew this but it rather smashes the idea that " No deal" was our ace in the hole that leavers wanted to believe it was.

 

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

 

Had that have been the position throughout we'd have know by now. That's an opportunistic stance to add to the fear around no deal. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but had we the balls to bargain hard, and adopted the position from day 1 that we're going on wto terms, that we'll keep our borders open to the EU for trade so long as its reciprocated, that we'd allow all EU citizens to remain here as long as its reciprocated, that we'll pay for what we're benefitting from pending departure (and what we have committed to) we wouldn't be in this mess. The EU would have come to us. As it is we've played an appalling hand and parliament can't commend any way forward cos they're all sh1te.

[OldNick]

Had that have been the position throughout we'd have know by now. That's an opportunistic stance to add to the fear around no deal. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but had we the balls to bargain hard, and adopted the position from day 1 that we're going on wto terms, that we'll keep our borders open to the EU for trade so long as its reciprocated, that we'd allow all EU citizens to remain here as long as its reciprocated, that we'll pay for what we're benefitting from pending departure (and what we have committed to) we wouldn't be in this mess. The EU would have come to us. As it is we've played an appalling hand and parliament can't commend any way forward cos they're all sh1te.

Seems fair, but the moment that woman went to the high court to get Parliament to vote the game changed. Add to that the worst Election manifesto ever by May and the open goal of a large majority was lost. Had she won the election with a massive majority like she should have, the deal would be home and dry.

[buctootim]

There is something really odd about May. Just as her deal was repeatedly rejected but she kept brnging it back, so her request to the EU for an extension to the end of June has been repeatedly rejected but here she is asking for the same thing again Someone should introduce her to the concept of plan B.

[egg]

There is something really odd about May. Just as her deal was repeatedly rejected but she kept brnging it back, so her request to the EU for an extension to the end of June has been repeatedly rejected but here she is asking for the same thing again Someone should introduce her to the concept of plan B.

"Grind em down" politics mate. She's not as daft as people think.

[Brussels Saint]

Genuine question for Leave supporters. Why do you think the determined Brexiteers hold out for no deal?

The reason why I ask, is that demographics will always at some point work against the Brexit ideal.

As older voters die out and youngsters gain the franchise, its not beyond the realms of possibility that in a couple of general election cycles one party or another will run on a ticket to rejoin the EU.

If that happens it would likely mean loss of the rebate and requiring the Euro. As I understand, already if no one changed their minds about Brexit, the death of leave voters means we are already a remainer nation if the referendum was rerun and its only likely to continue (demographics right)

My thinking if I was a Leave MP would be to accept whatever possible to at least get out, in the hope that a softer form of Brexit lasts as long as possible.

 

Just for disclosure, I'm a remainer (considering where I live no surprise) who thinks not implementing Brexit would create a democratic deficit. (but hopes for another referendum anyway even though I know its wrong!)

 

Interested in peoples views on this as I'm bored on a Friday afternoon

[buctootim]

"Grind em down" politics mate.

 

Her belief in that flawed philosophy is exactly why she couldn't get agreement after 2.5 years. Cross party consensus was the only approach which was going to work for a minority government with a second rate leader

[revolution saint]

Genuine question for Leave supporters. Why do you think the determined Brexiteers hold out for no deal?

The reason why I ask, is that demographics will always at some point work against the Brexit ideal.

As older voters die out and youngsters gain the franchise, its not beyond the realms of possibility that in a couple of general election cycles one party or another will run on a ticket to rejoin the EU.

If that happens it would likely mean loss of the rebate and requiring the Euro. As I understand, already if no one changed their minds about Brexit, the death of leave voters means we are already a remainer nation if the referendum was rerun and its only likely to continue (demographics right)

My thinking if I was a Leave MP would be to accept whatever possible to at least get out, in the hope that a softer form of Brexit lasts as long as possible.

 

Just for disclosure, I'm a remainer (considering where I live no surprise) who thinks not implementing Brexit would create a democratic deficit. (but hopes for another referendum anyway even though I know its wrong!)

 

Interested in peoples views on this as I'm bored on a Friday afternoon

 

I'm not sure the age demographic quite works like that - you're basing that on the assumption that people won't change their mind as they get older. To illustrate - JFK was elected largely by his popularity among younger voters and those same voters are now OAPS and voting for Trump. I've no figures and stats to back this up by the way so it's just my muddled thinking. Everyone has been saying the same about the Tory party for ages as well - they'll be wiped out within a generation and it never happens. I think a lot of people naturally become more conservative as they get older. Interesting stuff though.

[Portugalsaint]

Brussels Saint

I reply to your question, I personally don’t think all the leave voters were elderly and of course it depends on what you define as elderly. In the 70’s I was too young to vote in both polls. Obviously I was old enough to vote this time. Therefore maybe, it depends on your life as to how you voted in your late 50’s early 60’s. I do not define this as old but maybe other people do.

 

I think you are right, there may be another vote in maybe 40 years time if the EU is still going then. I won’t be around then but it would be interesting to see how people would vote then.

 

It’s just genuinely interesting times. It’s an extremely decisive subject in the UK. I don’t know if you watch the UK news but there appears to be little else. Certainly, nothing is covered what is going on in Europe at the moment. The Euronews this morning covered the “yellow vests” in Narbonne and poverty, I had no idea how high water bills were in France over 100 euros one particular woman stated per month! Also the EU in Greece are worried regarding the Far Right with the EU elections. In Hungary meanwhile the EU cannot contain that countries leader who did not mince his words regarding who he was going to accept into his country.

 

Interesting times in all countries not just Brexit Britain.

[Sheaf Saint]

I think you are right, there may be another vote in maybe 40 years time if the EU is still going then.

 

I seriously doubt it will take that long.

 

Give it five years at most after we leave, when people get to see the material impacts of the economic downturn it will undoubtedly create and the government can no longer blame all our socio-economic problems on the EU and/or immigration.

[Brussels Saint]

I'm not sure the age demographic quite works like that - you're basing that on the assumption that people won't change their mind as they get older. To illustrate - JFK was elected largely by his popularity among younger voters and those same voters are now OAPS and voting for Trump. I've no figures and stats to back this up by the way so it's just my muddled thinking. Everyone has been saying the same about the Tory party for ages as well - they'll be wiped out within a generation and it never happens. I think a lot of people naturally become more conservative as they get older. Interesting stuff though.

 

It's a good point that peoples views can change over time, but I dont think its really about being conservative or not (there are plenty of solid Labour voters who are for Leave). I just think its a generational question. The young in the main have grown up in a globalized world, are quite tolerant of immigration, have a looser connection to national ideals etc. That to me seems the driving motivations. They don't remember how great we were or aspire to that version of what being great means.

[buctootim]

I'm not sure the age demographic quite works like that - you're basing that on the assumption that people won't change their mind as they get older. To illustrate - JFK was elected largely by his popularity among younger voters and those same voters are now OAPS and voting for Trump. I've no figures and stats to back this up by the way so it's just my muddled thinking. Everyone has been saying the same about the Tory party for ages as well - they'll be wiped out within a generation and it never happens. I think a lot of people naturally become more conservative as they get older. Interesting stuff though.

 

What you say is generally true - but I'm not sure it applies to the EU in the same way as is does for right / left politics. Most people vote in their own self interest, which is why Labour gets more support from poorer people and the Tories from the wealthier. Brexit is different in that its primarily a divide between those who dont see benefits from the EU and those who do. Remain is primarily the young, professional or better educated - those who recognise globalisation and / or whose families want to work abroad / travel regularly / want to retire there. Leave is primarily C2DE and older people who remember 'glorious' Britains independent past.

Edited 5 April, 2019 by buctootim

[buctootim]

It's a good point that peoples views can change over time, but I dont think its really about being conservative or not (there are plenty of solid Labour voters who are for Leave). I just think its a generational question. The young in the main have grown up in a globalized world, are quite tolerant of immigration, have a looser connection to national ideals etc. That to me seems the driving motivations. They don't remember how great we were or aspire to that version of what being great means.

 

This

[buctootim]

Brussels Saint

I reply to your question, I personally don’t think all the leave voters were elderly and of course it depends on what you define as elderly. In the 70’s I was too young to vote in both polls. Obviously I was old enough to vote this time. Therefore maybe, it depends on your life as to how you voted in your late 50’s early 60’s. I do not define this as old but maybe other people do.

 

Read the breakdown of the Brexit polls. The groups where leave voters have a majority are over 50 (especially over 65) and the social groups C2DE. Remain has a majority in the under 50s and social classes ABC1.

[benjii]

My friend’s mum voted leave because, “things aren’t how they used to be”.

[aintforever]

It's a good point that peoples views can change over time, but I dont think its really about being conservative or not (there are plenty of solid Labour voters who are for Leave). I just think its a generational question. The young in the main have grown up in a globalized world, are quite tolerant of immigration, have a looser connection to national ideals etc. That to me seems the driving motivations. They don't remember how great we were or aspire to that version of what being great means.

 

This, and particularly the fact that the older generations views on Europe are very much influenced by the War. Even my generation grew up with the Germans being the bogey men, when I was younger 'Germans' = the bastards who bombed my nan's house and killed my great uncle.

[Portugalsaint]

Read the breakdown of the Brexit polls. The groups where leave voters have a majority are over 50 (especially over 65) and the social groups C2DE. Remain has a majority in the under 50s and social classes ABC1.

 

You see Buctootim what the hell is the difference between social class abc whatever and CDE or whatever? This is the problem with the UK and why there is not a niche in Europe that quite fits. Class. The UK has a problem with Class. In the UK there was always the upper class, those that are done for etc and the working class who if you have to go to work to live that is exactly as you are. The middle class have introduced themselves but in actual fact they have to go to work to eat so ....... in Europe there is no class structure. I have not come across this whatsoever.

 

I will write again and already know I will get a mouth full on here, however, I will write. The university degree is not worth what it was. In the UK there is a tendency to send young people to Uni as there were no jobs particularly in the 90’s and early 2000’s it was a way of massaging the unemployment figures. Of course, employers have caught on and now there are banded Uni’s into first and second rate.

 

Young people as we were all once, do not have the life skills which you gather as you go along in life.

 

As I say, I fully expect to be shot down in flames. It was the press that immediately decided to poll and show those with degrees who voted in and those who didn’t voted out! In my day you didn’t get to Uni unless you went to Grammar school and were in the top two classes to six form. Then Uni. The middle two classes went on to become plumbers, electricians etc and the bottom two classes were factory workers, hairdressers and chefs. Work that out! BTW I didn’t school in Hampshire, Gloucestershire where the grammar system still exists.

Edited 5 April, 2019 by Portugalsaint

[Portugalsaint]

Read the breakdown of the Brexit polls. The groups where leave voters have a majority are over 50 (especially over 65) and the social groups C2DE. Remain has a majority in the under 50s and social classes ABC1.

 

You see Buctootim what the hell is the difference between social class abc whatever and CDE or whatever? This is the problem with the UK and why there is not a niche in Europe that quite fits. Class. The UK has a problem with Class. In the UK there was always the upper class, those that are done for etc and the working class who if you have to go to work to live that is exactly as you are. The middle class have introduced themselves but in actual fact they have to go to work to eat so ....... in Europe there is no class structure. I have not come across this whatsoever.

 

I will write again and already know I will get a mouth full on here, however, I will write. The university degree is not worth what it was. In the UK there is a tendency to send young people to Uni as there were no jobs particularly in the 90’s and early 2000’s it was a way of massaging the unemployment figures. Of course, employers have caught on and now there are banded Uni’s into first and second rate.

 

Young people as we were all once, do not have the life skills which you gather as you go along in life.

 

As I say, I fully expect to be shot down in flames. It was the press that immediately decided to poll and show those with degrees who voted in and those who didn’t voted out! In my day you didn’t get to Uni unless you went to Grammar school and were in the top two classes to six for. Then Uni. The middle two classes went on to become plumbers, electricians etc and the bottom two classes were factory workers, hairdressers and chefs. Work that out! BTW I didn’t school in Hampshire, Gloucestershire where the grammar system still exists.

[buctootim]

You see Buctootim what the hell is the difference between social class abc whatever and CDE or whatever? This is the problem with the UK and why there is not a niche in Europe that quite fits. Class. The UK has a problem with Class. In the UK there was always the upper class, those that are done for etc and the working class who if you have to go to work to live that is exactly as you are. The middle class have introduced themselves but in actual fact they have to go to work to eat so ....... in Europe there is no class structure. I have not come across this whatsoever.

 

I will write again and already know I will get a mouth full on here, however, I will write. The university degree is not worth what it was. In the UK there is a tendency to send young people to Uni as there were no jobs particularly in the 90’s and early 2000’s it was a way of massaging the unemployment figures. Of course, employers have caught on and now there are banded Uni’s into first and second rate.

 

Young people as we were all once, do not have the life skills which you gather as you go along in life.

 

As I say, I fully expect to be shot down in flames. It was the press that immediately decided to poll and show those with degrees who voted in and those who didn’t voted out! In my day you didn’t get to Uni unless you went to Grammar school and were in the top two classes to six form. Then Uni. The middle two classes went on to become plumbers, electricians etc and the bottom two classes were factory workers, hairdressers and chefs. Work that out! BTW I didn’t school in Hampshire, Gloucestershire where the grammar system still exists.

 

https://www.ukgeographics.co.uk/blog/social-grade-a-b-c1-c2-d-e

[Portugalsaint]

Buctootim

LOL obsessed by class. Not you personally, of course, but the UK. As I say, no fit with Europe, no wonder the British have a reputation for being pompous. And now, showing ourselves up to be what we are.

 

In my time, I have met people from across the board. People who lost all their money and fell on very hard times and had to claim benefits. People who were solicitors who started taking drugs and or drink, lost their businesses. Some of these people worked for celebs, rock stars etc or just took to live out all the long hours. There by the grace of God go us all.

[Mosin]

Buctootim

LOL obsessed by class. Not you personally, of course, but the UK. As I say, no fit with Europe, no wonder the British have a reputation for being pompous. And now, showing ourselves up to be what we are.

 

In my time, I have met people from across the board. People who lost all their money and fell on very hard times and had to claim benefits. People who were solicitors who started taking drugs and or drink, lost their businesses. Some of these people worked for celebs, rock stars etc or just took to live out all the long hours. There by the grace of God go us all.

 

In my town, the general population is poor, the majority are students as i live pretty much on the door of 2 different uni's and one of a hand ful of university hospitals in the UK, most support leave. just thought i would share that with you.

 

 

Where i live, the richer tend to want remain, and the poor tend to want to leave, the kids in this local area most want to leave.

[buctootim]

In my town, the general population is poor, the majority are students as i live pretty much on the door of 2 different uni's and one of a hand ful of university hospitals in the UK, most support leave. just thought i would share that with you.

 

 

Where i live, the richer tend to want remain, and the poor tend to want to leave, the kids in this local area most want to leave.

 

Of course there are differences by income, education, age and location. Sometimes they intersect and sometimes they don't. We all know people who voted differently than the 'typical' way. Whereabouts do you live as a matter of interest?

[Portugalsaint]

Of course there are differences by income, education, age and location. Sometimes they intersect and sometimes they don't. We all know people who voted differently than the 'typical' way. Whereabouts do you live as a matter of interest?

 

Mosin’s comment is exactly what I am talking about. The press in the UK are all too quick to pull on polls, they exist for polls and graphs but really? I can go into many sites that back the remain camp and many others who back leave. At the end of the day, you vote for what you believe and what you want. This may be a bit “old fashioned” but our fore fathers fought for us to have a free country and thank God they did. The UK welcome everyone whether that’s right or wrong, the country is very generous in its beliefs etc and that is why so many want to come to such a small country in the world. 60 odd mil in a country the size of NZ with only 4m.

[Mosin]

Of course there are differences by income, education, age and location. Sometimes they intersect and sometimes they don't. We all know people who voted differently than the 'typical' way. Whereabouts do you live as a matter of interest?

 

Might be, but i don't think its an area specific thing, most poor i would gather want out the EU, its bad for wages as unskilled jobs have more workers than we have for demand so wages stay low, less unskilled workers from EU / any where in the world, they take up student jobs that they do to help them with income while they study and affordable accommodation for them, most people live here live here to go collage / uni's or the university NHS hospital, the general population here is Students.

 

 

I obviously cant speak for every one, only my self and the people i know, but here, 70 - 80 % of the people i meet and know, want to leave the EU, the middle aged ones tend to be the ones who want to remain with the older older folk more towards leaving too.

[stug76]

Read the breakdown of the Brexit polls. The groups where leave voters have a majority are over 50 (especially over 65) and the social groups C2DE. Remain has a majority in the under 50s and social classes ABC1.

 

I would imagine that ABC1's would be more engaged with politics before brexit and more likely to vote. Could it be that there are more possible gains to be had from the C2DE's in terms of numbers voting? Also hasn't the population generally aged over the last two years?

[Sheaf Saint]

Might be, but i don't think its an area specific thing, most poor i would gather want out the EU, its bad for wages as unskilled jobs have more workers than we have for demand so wages stay low, less unskilled workers from EU / any where in the world, they take up student jobs that they do to help them with income while they study and affordable accommodation for them, most people live here live here to go collage / uni's or the university NHS hospital, the general population here is Students.

 

 

I obviously cant speak for every one, only my self and the people i know, but here, 70 - 80 % of the people i meet and know, want to leave the EU, the middle aged ones tend to be the ones who want to remain with the older older folk more towards leaving too.

 

That's not actually true though...

 

https://www.edp24.co.uk/business/farming/farmers-struggling-to-recruit-eu-fruit-and-veg-pickers-says-nfu-1-5391153

[Portugalsaint]

Bexy

I can definitely tell you about the fruit and veg picking. Most of the people in the east of England were from Portugal. Portugal has become richer and definitely people are returning. The wage isn’t brilliant over here 604 euros pcm. So people are on the way back.

 

Again only seasonal work, seasonal people required only. Families bought over from poorer EU countries on the basic wage need housing, schooling, hospital and doctors. How do they live, working family tax credits. The farmers need to pay a reasonable wage or maybe instead of the chattering classes sending their kids around the world to work in other countries, get them picking fruit in the UK, I know we did for the summer along with French and Italians back in the 70’s oh and Italy were not members then!

 

Unfortunately, no one wanted to listen to the peasants revolting, those that felt as per Mosin’s post, and still don’t, that is why people voted out.

Edited 5 April, 2019 by Portugalsaint

[Mosin]

That's not actually true though...

 

https://www.edp24.co.uk/business/farming/farmers-struggling-to-recruit-eu-fruit-and-veg-pickers-says-nfu-1-5391153

 

 

How many fruit and veg jobs do you EVER see advertised in the paper / job center plus website? hardly any, you know why? cause labour from the EU is cheaper, a chance to come to the UK earn a decent wage, free housing while here and food, then get a pay check have wages toped up by working tax and family tax while claiming for 11 other family members in the EU that dont even live in the UK.

[Portugalsaint]

How many fruit and veg jobs do you EVER see advertised in the paper / job center plus website? hardly any, you know why? cause labour from the EU is cheaper, a chance to come to the UK earn a decent wage, free housing while here and food, then get a pay check have wages toped up by working tax and family tax while claiming for 11 other family members in the EU that dont even live in the UK.

 

Mosin, I agree with you there. I met a woman who did just that with cleaning jobs, only disclosed what she wanted us to know. Told by her sister to come over etc, etc. Now this was not the only person caught out. It is very difficult to prove, but was proven in the end. Not saying the British didn’t do it and of course there are good and bad everywhere. However, pushing down wages to claim is a favourite and has been since 2005 when WTC and WFTC were introduced. The general way forward was to come over as the advance party, find a bedsit and claim. Once over bring over your child then you are under accommodated and therefore the council would need to be involved to find appropriate accommodation/provide. It’s surprising what goes on at the wrong end of the ladder, I would never have known about this had I not been employed in the sector. It was nothing short of astonishing.

[van Hanegem]

How many fruit and veg jobs do you EVER see advertised in the paper / job center plus website? hardly any, you know why? cause labour from the EU is cheaper, a chance to come to the UK earn a decent wage, free housing while here and food, then get a pay check have wages toped up by working tax and family tax while claiming for 11 other family members in the EU that dont even live in the UK.

 

Mosin, I agree with you there. I met a woman who did just that with cleaning jobs, only disclosed what she wanted us to know. Told by her sister to come over etc, etc. Now this was not the only person caught out. It is very difficult to prove, but was proven in the end. Not saying the British didn’t do it and of course there are good and bad everywhere. However, pushing down wages to claim is a favourite and has been since 2005 when WTC and WFTC were introduced. The general way forward was to come over as the advance party, find a bedsit and claim. Once over bring over your child then you are under accommodated and therefore the council would need to be involved to find appropriate accommodation/provide. It’s surprising what goes on at the wrong end of the ladder, I would never have known about this had I not been employed in the sector. It was nothing short of astonishing.

 

Because of EU regulation they can also 'export' possible unemployment benefits to another European country for three months. In Holland and Germany (I don't know about the UK) many Poles use this regulation to take a break and visit their friends and family. They should be looking for a job in Poland of course but the unemployment benefits in the Netherlands are at least twice as high as the regular income in Poland so they don't bother and return to Western Europe after three months. At this moment it's mainly Poles who misuse this regulation but it's expected that many other Eastern and Southern Europeans will soon follow.

Instead of putting an end to this, the three-month period will soon be extended to six months because more European countries want this than there are countries who don't. The Dutch government says it's terrible that taxpayers money is going down the drain like this yet they refuse to say they it's not acceptable to the EU as they can't veto. "We just have to take our loss..." As if they haven't got a clue why more and more people are fed up with the free movement of persons and vote differently in the elections.

[Verbal]

Because of EU regulation they can also 'export' possible unemployment benefits to another European country for three months. In Holland and Germany (I don't know about the UK) many Poles use this regulation to take a break and visit their friends and family.

 

How many is 'many', Geert? Evidence please.

[Portugalsaint]

Because of EU regulation they can also 'export' possible unemployment benefits to another European country for three months. In Holland and Germany (I don't know about the UK) many Poles use this regulation to take a break and visit their friends and family. They should be looking for a job in Poland of course but the unemployment benefits in the Netherlands are at least twice as high as the regular income in Poland so they don't bother and return to Western Europe after three months. At this moment it's mainly Poles who misuse this regulation but it's expected that many other Eastern and Southern Europeans will soon follow.

Instead of putting an end to this, the three-month period will soon be extended to six months because more European countries want this than there are countries who don't. The Dutch government says it's terrible that taxpayers money is going down the drain like this yet they refuse to say they it's not acceptable to the EU as they can't veto. "We just have to take our loss..." As if they haven't got a clue why more and more people are fed up with the free movement of persons and vote differently in the elections

 

Van Hanegam. I knew the three month rule but had no idea it’s being extended to six. Indeed the poorer countries of the EU residents will migrate to the better off and Germany and The Netherlands are the most generous with benefits and government pensions.

 

Verbal, governments don’t publish numbers in this game and massage figures to suit themselves. They massage the unemployment figures in the UK by taking people off JSA and move them to ESA which is the sickness benefit. This allows them to show unemployment has diminished. Not everything is in black and white. If you work/worked in the game it’s astonishing what goes on.

 

Not many know about polygamous marriage payments. Sorry don’t know the figures.

 

Euronews running the Narbonne yellow vests news again and also problems in Italy with their gypsy population.

 

It “ain’t”pretty out there in amongst Brexit.

[van Hanegem]

How many is 'many', Geert? Evidence please.

 

Thousands Verb, thousands...

 

Journalists from Nieuwsuur (a program from the Dutch Public Broadcast Service) got a document from the government which stated that 4462 persons 'exported' their unemployment benefit for three months to Poland, only 21 found a job in their home country, a mere 0,5%. When you're really interested you can translate this piece yourself: https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2276236-opnieuw-grootschalig-misbruik-met-ww-uitkeringen-door-polen.html

 

What's even worse Verb is that far more Poles are engaged in real fraud with unemployment benefits (not the ones who say they are using the export regulation), they don't live in the Netherlands anymore or haven't lived in the Netherlands at all but they apply for unemployment benefits and usually get it because of the help from fraudulent intermediaries. Research showed that there are at least 150 of the latter who 'helped' 9400 Poles. It appears this fraud has been going on since 2009, imagine the sum of taxmoney lost (yup, including the taxmoney from fellow Poles who live and work in the Netherlands and are not involved in this).

 

Oh, I almost forgot your 'evidence': https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2248811-poolse-arbeidsmigranten-plegen-op-grote-schaal-uitkeringsfraude.html

[van Hanegem]

Van Hanegam. I knew the three month rule but had no idea it’s being extended to six. Indeed the poorer countries of the EU residents will migrate to the better off and Germany and The Netherlands are the most generous with benefits and government pensions.

 

Yup, it's going to be 6 months though they have postponed the decision for a short time "to answer the many questions from the Dutch and Germans."

What's even worse in this new regulation is that migrants don't have to work for at least 6 months in the Netherlands (or Germany or any other European country) anymore in order to apply for unemployment benefits. They can use their employment history from their home country, work for one day in the Netherlands and when they get fired after this day they can apply for unemployment benefits and get a check based on their Dutch income. You'll sure understand it's not that hard to get an employers statement which says someone has worked for years with them in Hungary, Poland, Greece or Italy. This way they can get unemployment benefits for years...

[van Hanegem]

Euronews running the Narbonne yellow vests news again and also problems in Italy with their gypsy population.

 

It “ain’t”pretty out there in amongst Brexit.

 

I read your remark there's not much information about the situation in France in British media. Don't know if that's true but here you read a good analysis of France's problems and why they will probably end up in the hands of the IMF. Brexit won't be fun but France faces some hard times too.

 

http://www.other-news.info/2019/02/macrons-france-unfortunately-waterloo-before-austerlitz/

[Window Cleaner]

I read your remark there's not much information about the situation in France in British media. Don't know if that's true but here you read a good analysis of France's problems and why they will probably end up in the hands of the IMF. Brexit won't be fun but France faces some hard times too.

 

http://www.other-news.info/2019/02/macrons-france-unfortunately-waterloo-before-austerlitz/

 

The funny thing is (well not so funny if you're fuel dependant) is that the prices at the pumps are now at least the equivalent of those that they would have been if the new fuel taxes had been implemented on 1/1/2019 as planned. The crux of the affair was to make E10 fuel less expensive than diesel. The diesel secteur of the car market plunged by about half as people traded in diesels for petrol versions, which are by far less economical and probably just as polluting. After a couple of weeks when E10 was a fraction cheaper than diesel we've gone back to diesel being about 3 or 4 centimes per litre cheaper than E10. So we've all bought "cleaner" cars and are now paying over the odds for our ecological gesture.

Apart from that the original yellow vest movement has become a hobby horse for anarchists and political extremes.

[van Hanegem]

The funny thing is (well not so funny if you're fuel dependant) is that the prices at the pumps are now at least the equivalent of those that they would have been if the new fuel taxes had been implemented on 1/1/2019 as planned. The crux of the affair was to make E10 fuel less expensive than diesel. The diesel secteur of the car market plunged by about half as people traded in diesels for petrol versions, which are by far less economical and probably just as polluting. After a couple of weeks when E10 was a fraction cheaper than diesel we've gone back to diesel being about 3 or 4 centimes per litre cheaper than E10. So we've all bought "cleaner" cars and are now paying over the odds for our ecological gesture.

Apart from that the original yellow vest movement has become a hobby horse for anarchists and political extremes.

 

Like one of those yellow vests said in an interview: “the elite is worried about the end of the world, we don’t know if we’ll make it to the end of the month.”

[Window Cleaner]

Like one of those yellow vests said in an interview: “the elite is worried about the end of the world, we don’t know if we’ll make it to the end of the month.”

 

Well yes, but the French still manage to pump about 4 billion euros into savings accounts every month. Probably because at the end of your career your income takes a 50% (or more) hit bcause of the pension system based on 50% of the average of your best 25 years salaries.. Unless of course you're one of the 6 or 7 million or so civil servants who don't even notice a difference because of their pension based on 75% of their pay on their last day at work. That's where the real inequality lies in the French system.i

[Tamesaint]

Presumably you are talking about the state pension.

 

What about private pensions?? Do they exist in France ?? If so, do people use them ??

[Window Cleaner]

Presumably you are talking about the state pension.

 

What about private pensions?? Do they exist in France ?? If so, do people use them ??

 

Very few workplace based private pension systems in operation here. Might even be none at all. The state "social charges" are so high that you'd have nothing left if you were paying into a parallel pension system at the same time. I can't remember the exact details because I wasn't in the private sector for very long in France but from what I can recall your take home pay is about

75% of your gross pay and about half of what it costs your employer.That's without income tax by the way. The French tax system is just fundamentally flawed. If you live away from where you work you can deduct what it costs you to get to work and back every day from your taxable income. Up to 25 miles or so, that's 50 miles a day they don't even ask any questions. Depending on the fiscal rating of your car you can knock off 40 or 50 euros a day with no questions asked. 200 or so days a year

and about 4.60 euros a day for lunch. So that's 11000 euros before you start. Result is people with decent salaries are paying little or no income tax at all. So the system has to catch up by deducting whopping amounts from everyone whether they're making a decent living or not.

[Tamesaint]

Very few workplace based private pension systems in operation here. Might even be none at all. The state "social charges" are so high that you'd have nothing left if you were paying into a parallel pension system at the same time. I can't remember the exact details because I wasn't in the private sector for very long in France but from what I can recall your take home pay is about

75% of your gross pay and about half of what it costs your employer.That's without income tax by the way. The French tax system is just fundamentally flawed. If you live away from where you work you can deduct what it costs you to get to work and back every day from your taxable income. Up to 25 miles or so, that's 50 miles a day they don't even ask any questions. Depending on the fiscal rating of your car you can knock off 40 or 50 euros a day with no questions asked. 200 or so days a year

and about 4.60 euros a day for lunch. So that's 11000 euros before you start. Result is people with decent salaries are paying little or no income tax at all. So the system has to catch up by deducting whopping amounts from everyone whether they're making a decent living or not.

 

Thank you. Interesting.

[Portugalsaint]

Like one of those yellow vests said in an interview: “the elite is worried about the end of the world, we don’t know if we’ll make it to the end of the month.”

 

The comments from Window Cleaner in France and Van Hanegam in the Netherlands show that all is not well. I must admit I was amazed at the size of The Netherlands unemployment benefit compared to the UK’s poultry 73.10 for over 25’s from April 2019. This is still exportable but who would want to export our small amount when you can get higher in The Netherlands and Germany? I would suspect that all the southern and Eastern European countries overwhelmingly voted for 3-6?

 

France, are noted for their protests, it looks like the dwindling numbers of yellow vests may find their voices heard at the ballot box in May. I see on Euro news that Marine Le Pen had much to say.

 

Hungary’s prime minister has become uncontrollable (any Saints in Hungary)?

 

There is life before, during and after Brexit. Hope everyone on here gets a look at Euronews to see another prospective on life after Laura bloody Kuenssberg!

[van Hanegem]

Well yes, but the French still manage to pump about 4 billion euros into savings accounts every month. Probably because at the end of your career your income takes a 50% (or more) hit bcause of the pension system based on 50% of the average of your best 25 years salaries.. Unless of course you're one of the 6 or 7 million or so civil servants who don't even notice a difference because of their pension based on 75% of their pay on their last day at work. That's where the real inequality lies in the French system.i

 

At the same time the French Government is borrowing 17 billion each month, the public debt is 2300 billion representing 100% of GDP. Like that Vettovaglia sais in his analysis: France is an outdated state, desperately in need of reforms. I'm afraid neither Macron nor Le Pen or anybody else can deliver these reforms. Macron was aiming for a European "stablisation plan" which would help economies in "unexpected trouble". Luckily there's not enough support thus far as it would mean that Northern Europe would bleed for the laziness of the French, like they did for the Greeks. However, I wouldn't dare to say it will never happen as Germany is getting a mini Merkel soon and who knows what Macron can achieve with her. Then there's also the European Commission with pigs like Juncker and Timmermans. Did you hear their latest trick with them agreeing on the Italian budget? According to their own figures (which they should use in order to treat every country equally) the EC should not have accepted this flawed budget and Italy should be given a fine for not meeting the demands of the EC. Instead of this the EC used the figures the Italians showed and accepted that the Italians delayed their idiot plan for early retirement and a basic income for the poor (€ 780,- a month) for just a couple of months while they don't have the money for it. Of course the EC wanted this to be secret and again the European Parliament showed it's incompetence by not acting on this. Thanks to Peter Omtzigt (a Dutch MP) and the Open Goverment Act we now know how Juncker & Co deliberately broke their own rules. It's reminiscent of the way the Greeks entered the Eurozone and we know how that ended.

 

People like Macron & Merkel are afraid that the "European Project" will fall apart sooner or later. Personally I hope the current form of the EU will soon disappear and replaced by something better, a more flexible Union which allows countries to make their own decisions concerning their domestic economies. Too bad the UK has placed itself offside with Brexit, it will be dearly missed in this struggle for change.

Edited 7 April, 2019 by van Hanegem

[van Hanegem]

The comments from Window Cleaner in France and Van Hanegam in the Netherlands show that all is not well. I must admit I was amazed at the size of The Netherlands unemployment benefit compared to the UK’s poultry 73.10 for over 25’s from April 2019. This is still exportable but who would want to export our small amount when you can get higher in The Netherlands and Germany? I would suspect that all the southern and Eastern European countries overwhelmingly voted for 3-6?

 

France, are noted for their protests, it looks like the dwindling numbers of yellow vests may find their voices heard at the ballot box in May. I see on Euro news that Marine Le Pen had much to say.

 

Hungary’s prime minister has become uncontrollable (any Saints in Hungary)?

 

There is life before, during and after Brexit. Hope everyone on here gets a look at Euronews to see another prospective on life after Laura bloody Kuenssberg!

 

73 quid a week? That's preposterous! Even people who can't apply for unemployment benefit because they didn't work get a social assistance allowance of € 935 a month (families get € 1336) in the Netherlands. I reckon wages are much higher in the UK compared to the Netherlands because employers and employees don't have to pay a monthly premium for unemployment? In the Netherlands you get an unemployment benefit based on 80% of your last income, after that it's 70% of your last income and dependant of how many years you have worked you can get this benefit for a maximum of three years. After that you can get the social assistance as mentioned above. You wouldn't believe how much fraud there is from Eastern Europe with the social assistance, a couple of years ago Dutch television showed that almost a complete village in Bulgaria was living on Dutch social assistance because it's fairly easy to get. "Free money!" said some teethless peasant with a big smile on his face. "Next year I'll come again to your wonderful country!"

[colehillsaint]

73 quid a week? That's preposterous! Even people who can't apply for unemployment benefit because they didn't work get a social assistance allowance of € 935 a month (families get € 1336) in the Netherlands. I reckon wages are much higher in the UK compared to the Netherlands because employers and employees don't have to pay a monthly premium for unemployment? In the Netherlands you get an unemployment benefit based on 80% of your last income, after that it's 70% of your last income and dependant of how many years you have worked you can get this benefit for a maximum of three years. After that you can get the social assistance as mentioned above. You wouldn't believe how much fraud there is from Eastern Europe with the social assistance, a couple of years ago Dutch television showed that almost a complete village in Bulgaria was living on Dutch social assistance because it's fairly easy to get. "Free money!" said some teethless peasant with a big smile on his face. "Next year I'll come again to your wonderful country!"

 

So are you unhappy about your tax bill? Is that your problem? Government has a big complicated task, which leads to lots of inefficiency. That’s not to say it shouldn’t be accountable. Do you think clamping down on Bulgarians with poor teeth is going to save a lot of your tax? Or is it just about being angry with a demon you have successfully raised to suitable proportions?

 

I think if our government is susceptible to fraud it should be encouraged to do its job through calm rigorous journalism, rather than let it constantly scapegoat a higher or lower tier of government, or a poverty stricken minority.

[van Hanegem]

So are you unhappy about your tax bill? Is that your problem? Government has a big complicated task, which leads to lots of inefficiency. That’s not to say it shouldn’t be accountable. Do you think clamping down on Bulgarians with poor teeth is going to save a lot of your tax? Or is it just about being angry with a demon you have successfully raised to suitable proportions?

 

I think if our government is susceptible to fraud it should be encouraged to do its job through calm rigorous journalism, rather than let it constantly scapegoat a higher or lower tier of government, or a poverty stricken minority.

 

Nope, it's not my tax bill. Though more than half of my income is spent on taxes, I'm happy to pay that bill as I know it is for the good of Dutch society in which we take care of people less fortunate. However, it's getting tough to maintain this welfare state when people who don't contribute to our society are abusing our social system. For example: more and more Dutchmen are not able to pay the insurance for a dentist anymore due to the increasing cost of healthcare, they just have to hope they're lucky and won't end up like that Bulgarian peasant. Also many Dutchmen (employed and unemployed) have to make use of foodbanks because they can't make ends meet. Could you explain to them why we're losing more than a billion each year on fraud by foreigners?

Sure, you can say the Dutch government is accountable and yes: they're going to hire hundreds of workers in order to get more control of the applications for benefits. So hopefully this will mean a decrease of the fraud otherwise we will lose even more money because of the wages of those extra workers. Unfortunately, those workers won't be allowed to go to Poland or other countries to see if someone is doing his or her best to get a job or to see if they are really disabled to work. They just have to rely on their Polish contacts, good luck with that...

 

I'm unhappy with the unrestraint freedom of movement within Europe which causes a lot of problems. The undermining of our social system is one thing but what do you think that the arrival of all those cheap workers from Eastern Europe does to the average hourly wage in low paid jobs? It won't rise, I can tell you that. In fact, even left wing politicians in the Netherlands are now concerned with so many unskilled workers not being able to get a job because it would mean they would get less money than they get from social assistance. What's your idea on this?

[whelk]

Peter Oborne, a Brexiteer, having a rethink.

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/i-was-strong-brexiteer-now-we-must-swallow-our-pride-and-think-again/

[Portugalsaint]

73 quid a week? That's preposterous! Even people who can't apply for unemployment benefit because they didn't work get a social assistance allowance of € 935 a month (families get € 1336) in the Netherlands. I reckon wages are much higher in the UK compared to the Netherlands because employers and employees don't have to pay a monthly premium for unemployment? In the Netherlands you get an unemployment benefit based on 80% of your last income, after that it's 70% of your last income and dependant of how many years you have worked you can get this benefit for a maximum of three years. After that you can get the social assistance as mentioned above. You wouldn't believe how much fraud there is from Eastern Europe with the social assistance, a couple of years ago Dutch television showed that almost a complete village in Bulgaria was living on Dutch social assistance because it's fairly easy to get. "Free money!" said some teethless peasant with a big smile on his face. "Next year I'll come again to your wonderful country

 

£73 per week is for a single person over the age of 25-65. If there are children supplements are added plus child benefit. Also the UK government will pay all or some of your rent and council tax(a local council fee). There are now caps for the amount that can be claimed inside London and outside of London due to large rents in London. This has pushed people out of London to the counties around and beyond. In the UK a percentage of income is not taken into account. You could therefore be earning large sums in the city one week, made unemployed and if your savings were not high £73 the next if you are single.

 

I see they were protesting in Berlin today at high rents, €600 per month! May I say for a capital city, compared to London this is very cheap.

 

I believe the Dutch are keeping a very close eye on Brexit. Do you think that Donald Tusk has anything to do with the 3-6 month extension?

 

I think the irony of the toothless Bulgarian is lost! As you say with a glint in his eye! To unpolitically correct for the UK as the UK is fond of turning themselves inside out with political correctness.

[shurlock]

Mark Francois is going to command a six figure fee on “I’m a Celebrity” by the time this is all said and done.

[van Hanegem]

£73 per week is for a single person over the age of 25-65. If there are children supplements are added plus child benefit. Also the UK government will pay all or some of your rent and council tax(a local council fee). There are now caps for the amount that can be claimed inside London and outside of London due to large rents in London. This has pushed people out of London to the counties around and beyond. In the UK a percentage of income is not taken into account. You could therefore be earning large sums in the city one week, made unemployed and if your savings were not high £73 the next if you are single.

 

I see they were protesting in Berlin today at high rents, €600 per month! May I say for a capital city, compared to London this is very cheap.

 

I believe the Dutch are keeping a very close eye on Brexit. Do you think that Donald Tusk has anything to do with the 3-6 month extension?

 

I think the irony of the toothless Bulgarian is lost! As you say with a glint in his eye! To unpolitically correct for the UK as the UK is fond of turning themselves inside out with political correctness.

 

Thanks for the info Portugalsaint and of course there was no pun intended on that Bulgarian peasant, some people are way too sensitive these days. It was just funny to see this man waving around with his credit card amidst all his chicken, donkey and his prewar carriage. Hopefully he was able to buy false teeth, I don't blame him as he was probably thinking we're all filthy rich in the West.

Naturally we have 'political correct' people in the Netherlands too, usually a bunch of hypocrites who smile along when you tell them a joke about the 50 shades of gay in the Vatican. When the joke is on jewish religion it gets a bit awkward: half of them believe you're an "antisemite" and half (those who believe it's quite fashionable to wear a scarf like Arafats around their neck) is still laughing because, you know, Israel is treating Palestinians really wrong. When the joke is on islam they all get furious because you're an "islamophobe". Not that you hear many jokes on islam anymore as our stand up comedians are scared to death to make them. But let's not go over there, before you know Verbal is all over the place and I reckon he needs some more time to translate the evidence I gave him on the Poles...

 

€ 600,- is indeed cheap for a city like Berlin but weren't the protests against the enormous profits project developers and investors make when they buy houses, renovate them and soon after start asking ridiculous rents? We see that in the Netherlands too, even a member of our royal family is getting filthy rich this way. He owns almost 600 houses, apartments, shopping malls and office buildings, much of them in Amsterdam. The city council of Amsterdam is looking for a way to disown guys like him because of the affordable housing shortage. I doubt they'll succeed bit I wish them luck.

 

No, Donald Tusk has nothing to do with the 3-6 month extension. It's the European Commission (Juncker & Co) and the current chairman of the EU Romania. The extension of the three month period to six months is part of a package which includes much more. In this package there are also subjects who don't go well in Eastern Europe. So eight of the European countries voted against the package while Poland, Hungary and Malta are withholding their approval. This way there's not the majority needed to go on but our Minister of Social Affairs and Employment said Romania and the EC are still pushing to take care of this so we have to wait and see.

 

Yes, the Dutch are keeping a very close eye on Brexit as our economy will also take a big hit, especially when there's no deal. We can write off our fishing industry for example when we're not welcome anymore in British territorial waters and we have many patients who rely on British medicines. Also, the Netherlands is a transit port for the rest of Europe and our economy relies on trade so less trade due to Brexit will really hurt. Still there are a lot of Dutchmen (including myself ) who wonder what will happen with the UK completely outside the EU in the long run. Everyone understands it will be a big mess for years to come but eventually? There's a program on Dutch televison called Tegenlicht, Backlight in English but I don't know if this really covers the meaning. This program is always looking at things from a different angle and they did so with Trump's protectionism (which won't work for every American...) and Brexit (a look into the "Preston Model" which might help to get out of the mess after Brexit). It's quite refreshing to hear an economist like Dani Rodrik or a historian like Quinn Slobodian commenting on the developments in world economy without the bias you usually get from journalists and politicians. The commentary is in Dutch, sorry for that, but the interviews are in english of

course: https://www.vpro.nl/programmas/tegenlicht/kijk/afleveringen/2018-2019/Eigen-handel-eerst.html

Edited 8 April, 2019 by van Hanegem