Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Whitey Grandad]

Look, you might label it a divisive and unnecessary process, but a majority of the electorate who voted in the referendum to leave the EU, would with good reason accuse you of expressing the typical arrogance of the Remain camp by attempting to belittle their decision in this way.

 

What will we have achieved at the end of the Brexit process? You will just have to be patient and wait and see. You're quite a bit like those posters on the football side of the forum who are forecasting doom and gloom following the results of just three matches in the new season.

 

Had you bothered to look past the headline that May doesn't want a points based system, her criticism is based on her fears that anybody who tots up the appropriate points total could come here with or without a job being available for them. She wants greater control than that. She emphasises that Brexit will allow us to control immigration numbers from the EU, that there is no question of us signing an agreement with the EU that allows for immigration to be imposed on us by them. Also, she has castigated the Indian PM for not assisting adequately the repatriation of illegal Indian immigrants.

 

Sorry, but personally I don't see much to be that concerned about yet.

 

I have repeatedly made the point about trying and failing to control net migration from the rest of the world. Presumably after Brexit all these illegal Indian immigrants will be repatriated?

 

'arrogance of the Remain camp'? That's a bit rich.

[moonraker]

What does it have to do with him? He is not elected and has no more democratic mandate to speak for anybody than I do. That doesn't stop the BBC dragging him in at every opportunity.

 

Breakfast means Breakfast

 

Sometimes it means Brunch, which as you will know is a blend of breakfast and lunch, so perhaps our PM realy wants brexmain.

[scotty]

I have repeatedly made the point about trying and failing to control net migration from the rest of the world. Presumably after Brexit all these illegal Indian immigrants will be repatriated?

 

'arrogance of the Remain camp'? That's a bit rich.

 

I maintain the view that immigration was not a major factor in the referendum vote. Nobody I've spoken with has cited that as a decisive issue for them. Most people I know have basically said that the reason for voting leave was the seemingly inexorable path to full European integration, with all that would have entailed.

[badgerx16]

Wes, most people who voted for Brecit seem to have done so for a specific reason; control of immigration, more money for the NHS, recovering our national sovereignty, or simpy voting against David Cameron, etc. As each of thesd desires is eroded, it raises the question as to whether these voters will truly support whatever compromise / fudge we end up being lumbered with.

[Johnny Bognor]

What does it have to do with him? He is not elected and has no more democratic mandate to speak for anybody than I do. That doesn't stop the BBC dragging him in at every opportunity.

 

Breakfast means Breakfast

Ah but what does breakfast mean?

 

Are we looking at continental with croissants and orange juice or are we looking at a full on fry up??

 

Sometimes people elect to have breakfast but don't quite know what they want until they see the menu

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Whitey Grandad]

I maintain the view that immigration was not a major factor in the referendum vote. Nobody I've spoken with has cited that as a decisive issue for them. Most people I know have basically said that the reason for voting leave was the seemingly inexorable path to full European integration, with all that would have entailed.

 

I think those who voted to leave all voted for different reasons. I have heard all sorts of motivations given, most of them full of misconceptions.

[buctootim]

Teresa May is now ruling out a points based immigration system. How many supported Brexit on the basis that such a system was being promised / proposed ?

 

One of the central planks of the Brexit campaign was that large scale immigration of unskilled labour stopped the young from getting first jobs and depressed working class wages. Its true, it does. A points based system is used where you want immigrants to have skills and education which are useful to the country but where the workers arent available locally. Ruling it out effectively signals we are going to have a quota system - continue to import unskilled low paid labour and screw many of those who voted for Brexit.

Edited 5 September, 2016 by buctootim

[buctootim]

Ah but what does breakfast mean?

 

Are we looking at continental with croissants and orange juice or are we looking at a full on fry up??

 

Sometimes people elect to have breakfast but don't quite know what they want until they see the menu

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

Its Dog Schitt or Cat Schitt on the menu. Which one are you opting for Johnny?

[Whitey Grandad]

Its Dog Schitt or Cat Schitt on the menu. Which one are you opting for Johnny?

Dogschitt means DogSchitt whereas Catschitt means Catschitt. Everybody knows that

[Johnny Bognor]

So what single reason did remainers vote to remain???

 

Just asking...

Edited 5 September, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Lord Duckhunter]

One of the central planks of the Brexit campaign was that large scale immigration of unskilled labour stopped the young from getting first jobs and depressed working class wages. Its true, it does. A points based system is used where you want immigrants to have skills and education which are useful to the country but where the workers arent available locally. Ruling it out effectively signals we are going to have a quota system - continue to import unskilled low paid labour and screw many of those who voted for Brexit.

 

 

So May , a remoaner , my make a right Royal **** up of immigration post Brexit . That's why the winning side should have produced the PM rather than the women who was in charge of our diasterous immigration policy the past dozen years , and was in the losing side with Izzard , Geldof , Anna sloshedbry , Clarke, Blair & other assorted **** wits .

[Whitey Grandad]

So what single reason did remainers vote to remain???

 

Just asking...

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

...and totally irrelevant.

[Whitey Grandad]

So May , a remoaner , my make a right Royal **** up of immigration post Brexit . That's why the winning side should have produced the PM rather than the women who was in charge of our diasterous immigration policy the past dozen years , and was in the losing side with Izzard , Geldof , Anna sloshedbry , Clarke, Blair & other assorted **** wits .

 

They didn't, that is what is called 'democracy'.

 

Can this please be the last of this 'loser' and 'winners' mentality which, quite frankly, belongs in the school playground where it belongs. There are no winners in this sorry mess.

[moonraker]

So May , a remoaner , my make a right Royal **** up of immigration post Brexit . That's why the winning side should have produced the PM rather than the women who was in charge of our diasterous immigration policy the past dozen years , and was in the losing side with Izzard , Geldof , Anna sloshedbry , Clarke, Blair & other assorted **** wits .

 

It really is hard to take the rantings of an un-reconstituted bigot seriously. Your use of the term "women" is plainly sexist, your inaccuracy about her tenure of immigration policy is ignorance and your dismissal of remain supporters as ****wits is arrogant and frankly bad-mannered. But then anyone who can use a picture of the supreme bigot Farage without any irony is unlikely to be capable of anything else. Thankfully remainers and leavers with a better grip on reality, civility and the facts will be negotiating our exit from the EU and not Farage and his ilk.

[buctootim]

So May , a remoaner , my make a right Royal **** up of immigration post Brexit . That's why the winning side should have produced the PM rather than the women who was in charge of our diasterous immigration policy the past dozen years , and was in the losing side with Izzard , Geldof , Anna sloshedbry , Clarke, Blair & other assorted **** wits .

 

If May had made a success of reducing non EU immigration then I would have had less opposition to Brexit. Excessive immigration is a real problem for Britain. As Home Secretary May failed to reduce numbers even when it was easy to do so - for example those coming on student visas but not leaving at the end of their courses - some 100,000 pa according to Radio 2 this morning. Thats why for me leaving the EU was pointless - you get all the pain but the promised gains don't materialise.

Edited 5 September, 2016 by buctootim

[Whitey Grandad]

If May had made a success of reducing non EU immigration then I would have had less opposition to Brexit. Excessive immigration is a real problem for Britain. As Home Secretary May failed to reduce numbers even when it was easy to do so - those coming on student visas but not leaving at the end of their courses. They apparently add 100,000 pa to the numbers according to Radio 2 this morning. Thats why for me leaving the EU was pointless - you get all the pain but the promised gains don't materialise.

 

Totally agree. The problem lies within the Home Office who, despite all the government's attempts, have no stomach or desire to do anything about reducing the numbers.

[badgerx16]

So what single reason did remainers vote to remain???

 

Just asking...

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

Because I felt remaining was better than leaving. Just saying.

[Johnny Bognor]

...and totally irrelevant.

Not really. Remainers have different reasons, as do the leavers.

 

Some lefties wanted to remain because they saw the EU as being able to keep tabs on the tories, in the absence of a labour government.

 

Some wanted unrestricted travel as they were too young to remember unrestricted travel prior to maastrict

 

Some believe in the single market (which I do sympathise with)

 

There is a whole array of reasons for leaving as there is for staying (some good and some ridiculous).

Edited 5 September, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[moonraker]

So what single reason did remainers vote to remain???

 

Just asking...

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

Very simple, to remain part of collaborative family of nations with far more that unites them than separates them.

[Johnny Bognor]

Its Dog Schitt or Cat Schitt on the menu. Which one are you opting for Johnny?

 

**** that, I'm not coming round yours for a breakkie

[Wes Tender]

So why didn’t your clever Brexit leaders identify that glaring fault in their dastardly plans when they propsoed it as soloution to the problem? It seems you voted for somthing you for which have absoloutly no idea of the outcome, i rest my case where brexit is concerned. You constant judgment of those who debate with you and have a different view as arrogant brings pots and black kettles to mind.

 

Do try and concentrate; it really is quite simple. I voted to leave the EU. A majority of the electorate who voted in the referendum voted to leave the EU. From that perspective, which is the one of most importance to those who voted to leave, they can be satisfied that that will happen. May has stated that Brexit means Brexit, there will be no second referendum, there will be no subterfuge whereby we stay in via the back door. We will not accept free movement of peoples as a condition of future trade with the EU. These are the essential points of the situation which satisfy those who voted to leave.

 

We will leave the EU. End of.

 

What you and others are arguing about are the repercussions that will ensue in the various areas that will be affected by our leaving. As those will be subject to negotiations between the UK and the EU (and the rest of the World), it is obvious to pretty well everybody that there was uncertainty during the referendum campaign as to the outcome of those negotiations, so it is perfectly reasonable to counsel patience as events unfold, rather than jump to stupid conclusions about what might happen before it does, as you are doing.

 

Different people voted either way for different reasons that they prioritised in order of importance to them.

 

I reiterate my charge that it is arrogant for you to dismiss those personal reasons that motivated their decisions as divisive or unnecessary.

[Wes Tender]

Very simple, to remain part of collaborative family of nations with far more that unites them than separates them.

 

That was the single reason, was it? As you say, the response was very simple.

[buctootim]

Bless. Wes tries so hard to score he doesn't care which end its at.

[buctootim]

**** that, I'm not coming round yours for a breakkie

 

Its got to be better than the 'Curiously Cinnamon' cereal I bought the other day.

[Whitey Grandad]

Do try and concentrate; it really is quite simple. I voted to leave the EU. A majority of the electorate who voted in the referendum voted to leave the EU. From that perspective, which is the one of most importance to those who voted to leave, they can be satisfied that that will happen. May has stated that Brexit means Brexit, there will be no second referendum, there will be no subterfuge whereby we stay in via the back door. We will not accept free movement of peoples as a condition of future trade with the EU. These are the essential points of the situation which satisfy those who voted to leave.

 

We will leave the EU. End of.

 

What you and others are arguing about are the repercussions that will ensue in the various areas that will be affected by our leaving. As those will be subject to negotiations between the UK and the EU (and the rest of the World), it is obvious to pretty well everybody that there was uncertainty during the referendum campaign as to the outcome of those negotiations, so it is perfectly reasonable to counsel patience as events unfold, rather than jump to stupid conclusions about what might happen before it does, as you are doing.

 

Different people voted either way for different reasons that they prioritised in order of importance to them.

 

I reiterate my charge that it is arrogant for you to dismiss those personal reasons that motivated their decisions as divisive or unnecessary.

 

For my response I am reminded of the Life of Brian.

 

'But how shall we fûck off oh Lord?'

[Whitey Grandad]

Its got to be better than the 'Curiously Cinnamon' cereal I bought the other day.

 

Cinnamon means cinnamon.

[shurlock]

**** that, I'm not coming round yours for a breakkie

 

[aintforever]

I think those who voted to leave all voted for different reasons. I have heard all sorts of motivations given, most of them full of misconceptions.

 

No different to the people who voted remain. everyone had their own reasons for voting whatever, plenty of misconceptions on either side.

[Verbal]

No different to the people who voted remain. everyone had their own reasons for voting whatever, plenty of misconceptions on either side.

 

There is a big difference though - in the logic failure of the present government position on Brexit, summed up by Davis.

 

In the Commons today, he said people in Britain voted 'decisively' for Brexit - and now they want to know what it means. Doesn't that feel ever so weirdly the wrong way around? Isn't it normal to figure out what something is or means, and then vote for it?

[moonraker]

That was the single reason, was it? As you say, the response was very simple.

 

For me it is that simple, embrace international co-opertaion and collaboration and it is a rejection of the regressive, multi layered, disjointed muddle, created by the self interested Brexit campaign.

[buctootim]

There is a big difference though - in the logic failure of the present government position on Brexit, summed up by Davis.

 

In the Commons today, he said people in Britain voted 'decisively' for Brexit - and now they want to know what it means. Doesn't that feel ever so weirdly the wrong way around? Isn't it normal to figure out what something is or means, and then vote for it?

 

Interesting definition of 'decisive' too. 27% of the population, 35% of the electorate.

[Whitey Grandad]

No different to the people who voted remain. everyone had their own reasons for voting whatever, plenty of misconceptions on either side.

 

Not at all. I heard no misconceptions from those who wanted to remain. Primarily because they wanted the status quo.

[aintforever]

Not at all. I heard no misconceptions from those who wanted to remain. Primarily because they wanted the status quo.

 

There was just as much bull**** spouted by the remain camp. Just one example was that post Brexit vote austerity budget that was just a plain lie.

 

Just accept that the people have made their choice, wether you like reason why they made their choice is irrelivant.

[Whitey Grandad]

There was just as much bull**** spouted by the remain camp. Just one example was that post Brexit vote austerity budget that was just a plain lie.

 

Just accept that the people have made their choice, wether you like reason why they made their choice is irrelivant.

 

That's not true. It's a common response by the Leavers to say that there were just as many inaccuracies on both sides of the debate but there was only one side that don't don't have a clue what to do if the vote went their way. Osborne ceased to be chancellor the instant that Cameron resigned so you can't call it a lie and there was very prompt action by the BofE and we have an Autumn Statement to look forward to.

 

People are entitled and free to make their choice even if they don't have a reason. That is their right.

 

Bullshît means bullshît. (Stupid statement isn't it?)

[aintforever]

That's not true. It's a common response by the Leavers to say that there were just as many inaccuracies on both sides of the debate but there was only one side that don't don't have a clue what to do if the vote went their way. Osborne ceased to be chancellor the instant that Cameron resigned so you can't call it a lie and there was very prompt action by the BofE and we have an Autumn Statement to look forward to.

 

People are entitled and free to make their choice even if they don't have a reason. That is their right.

 

Bullshît means bullshît. (Stupid statement isn't it?)

 

I disagree, I don't think the remain camp showed they had a clue how to deal with a future of mass uncontrolled immigration. They just pretended the effects didn't exist and tried to scare people with lies. How can you say Osbourne didn't lie? He knew he would resign if he lost so to say there would be a austerity budget straight after was a clear lie.

[buctootim]

I don't think the remain camp showed they had a clue how to deal with a future of mass uncontrolled immigration.

 

There isnt going to be a major reduction in immigration - at least not as the result of government action. Never was going to be. The only difference is that Remain didn't pretend they would do something about it.

[Lord Duckhunter]

It really is hard to take the rantings of an un-reconstituted bigot seriously. Your use of the term "women" is plainly sexist, your inaccuracy about her tenure of immigration policy is ignorance and your dismissal of remain supporters as ****wits is arrogant and frankly bad-mannered. But then anyone who can use a picture of the supreme bigot Farage without any irony is unlikely to be capable of anything else. Thankfully remainers and leavers with a better grip on reality, civility and the facts will be negotiating our exit from the EU and not Farage and his ilk.

 

What a load of pony .

 

I haven't got a bigoted bone in my body .

 

Wow calling May " a women " is sexist? What bollards .

 

As for her immigration policy , I am 100% right , she has been a disaster as home sec and lost control of non eu immigration .

 

I didn't call every remoaner a **** wit , just some of them , but I would include your good self

[Lord Duckhunter]

There was just as much bull**** spouted by the remain camp. Just one example was that post Brexit vote austerity budget that was just a plain lie.

.

 

Add to that

 

Cameron won't resign - lie

 

Article 50 will be triggered on day one - lie

[Wes Tender]

For me it is that simple, embrace international co-opertaion and collaboration and it is a rejection of the regressive, multi layered, disjointed muddle, created by the self interested Brexit campaign.

Presumably by self-interest, you do mean the self-interest of the United Kingdom, rather than the self-interest of the individuals who voted for Brexit? What was in it for the self-interest of the individuals who wished to get us out of the EU particularly? They were told by our Chancellor that they would be £4300 annually per family worse off if they dared to vote us out, so not much pandering to their self interests there.

 

And do you really believe that post-Brexit we will not embrace co-operation and collaboration with the EU and indeed with the much wider international sphere, the whole of the World? We will continue trading with the regressive, multi-layered, disjointed, sclerotic and over-bureaucratic EU, will we not?

[hutch]

That's not true. It's a common response by the Leavers to say that there were just as many inaccuracies on both sides of the debate but there was only one side that don't don't have a clue what to do if the vote went their way. Osborne ceased to be chancellor the instant that Cameron resigned so you can't call it a lie and there was very prompt action by the BofE and we have an Autumn Statement to look forward to.

 

People are entitled and free to make their choice even if they don't have a reason. That is their right.

 

Bullshît means bullshît. (Stupid statement isn't it?)

To be fair, you just repeated the biggest remain fallacy further up the page, that a vote for remain was a vote for the status quo.

 

If the EU leaders had got together and stated...

 

"That's it chaps, no more expansion. 28 is more than enough. No more ever closer union. No more qualified majority voting. Let's stick with what we have and fix the problems we've already got, rather than exacerbate them by extending further into Asia and the Middle East"

 

...then I think remain would have won comfortably. A lot of people voted against what they thought was coming. They didn't like the look of it.

[Johnny Bognor]

To be fair, you just repeated the biggest remain fallacy further up the page, that a vote for remain was a vote for the status quo.

 

If the EU leaders had got together and stated...

 

"That's it chaps, no more expansion. 28 is more than enough. No more ever closer union. No more qualified majority voting. Let's stick with what we have and fix the problems we've already got, rather than exacerbate them by extending further into Asia and the Middle East"

 

...then I think remain would have won comfortably. A lot of people voted against what they thought was coming. They didn't like the look of it.

 

Nail. Hit. Head.

 

There is and was no status quo and remaining is not risk free, although a lot of remainers voted that way. When the campaign started, that was pretty much my line of thought. However, when realising that the status quo didnt exist, I started to question it and changed my mind.

Edited 6 September, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[moonraker]

Presumably by self-interest, you do mean the self-interest of the United Kingdom, rather than the self-interest of the individuals who voted for Brexit? What was in it for the self-interest of the individuals who wished to get us out of the EU particularly? They were told by our Chancellor that they would be £4300 annually per family worse off if they dared to vote us out, so not much pandering to their self interests there.

 

And do you really believe that post-Brexit we will not embrace co-operation and collaboration with the EU and indeed with the much wider international sphere, the whole of the World? We will continue trading with the regressive, multi-layered, disjointed, sclerotic and over-bureaucratic EU, will we not?

 

I was referring to the leaders of the campaign who it seemed to me had only one objective, furtherance of their careers or the continued ideological struggle the evil forces of the EU. I agree very few if any the normal voters cast their ballot out of self interest.

Of course we will continue to co-operate and trade internationally where have I ever said we would not. However it is my belief that being a part of the EU makes that much easier, less costly over time and more aligned to the world of today.

It is interesting that prior to the vote the Leave campaign was focussed on the mythical £350 m that would suddenly be available to the UK Government and Immigration, now the majority of the focus is trade. Currently all we get from leavers on trade is don’t worry it will be alright, there is no coherent strategy, little agreement between the various factions, and no understanding of how to negotiate international trade agreements, so by all means accuse me of being a tad concerned that it might not be aright, because i am.

Edited 6 September, 2016 by moonraker

[moonraker]

Nail. Hit. Head.

 

There is and was no status quo and remaining is not risk free, although a lot of remainers voted that way. When the campaign started, that was pretty much my line of thought. However, when realising that the status quo didnt exist, I started to question it and changed my mind.

 

You make a very good and for me important point. I asked the same question and came to a different decision, which of us has made the right prediction only time will tell. I decided that remaining in and fignting for an EU that was only focused on the benefits it could bring to the citizens of its member countries was prefereable to being outside but signifcantly impacted with no say or influence.

[Whitey Grandad]

Nail. Hit. Head.

 

There is and was no status quo and remaining is not risk free, although a lot of remainers voted that way. When the campaign started, that was pretty much my line of thought. However, when realising that the status quo didnt exist, I started to question it and changed my mind.

 

Staus quo means status quo. In my case that meant that I was comfortable with our relationship with our European partners and none of the scaremongering from the Leave campaigners had any effect on me.

[CB Saint]

Status quo means nothing changes ie it will be as it is now.

 

That has never been the case in the EU and never will be.

[Whitey Grandad]

Status quo means nothing changes ie it will be as it is now.

 

That has never been the case in the EU and never will be.

 

Not true. Status quo can mean 'the situation as it is now' or 'existing state of affairs' which can also mean changes if you're happy that those changes are being managed by your elected representatives.

[Guided Missile]

Read all about it here....

 

The 19-country eurozone lost some economic momentum in August, largely because of a slowdown in Germany, a closely watched survey showed Monday, days ahead of another possible stimulus package from the European Central Bank.

The central bank has launched a series of stimulus measures to help the eurozone over the past couple of years, including cutting its key interest rate to zero. It is also pumping 80 billion euros ($90 billion) of new money into the economy every month by buying bonds from banks and companies in the hope of keeping a lid on borrowing rates in the real economy to encourage lending and promote business activity.

 

Printing money again. That didn't end too well for the Weimar Republic and ended in a shift to the right in Germany, Nazism and the Second World War. Never learn, do they?

[Whitey Grandad]

Read all about it here....

 

 

 

 

Printing money again. That didn't end too well for the Weimar Republic and ended in a shift to the right in Germany, Nazism and the Second World War. Never learn, do they?

 

It's not called that any more, its called Quantitive Easing.

 

Keep up

[Johnny Bognor]

You make a very good and for me important point. I asked the same question and came to a different decision, which of us has made the right prediction only time will tell. I decided that remaining in and fignting for an EU that was only focused on the benefits it could bring to the citizens of its member countries was prefereable to being outside but signifcantly impacted with no say or influence.

 

In my sector, the European Data Protection Regulation came to pass. The UK, which has a bigger reliance on online / e-commerce lobbied quite hard for softer regulations. They were watered down in part from the proposed draconian legislation, but the regulation is still anti-business. So we don't really have that much of a say in things and our influence is limited. So all in all, there is/was risk to both remain and leave.

 

I just wanted it down for the record, that remaining is not risk free and not necessarly playing it safe.

 

 

Staus quo means status quo. In my case that meant that I was comfortable with our relationship with our European partners and none of the scaremongering from the Leave campaigners had any effect on me.

 

The scare mongering from the remainers, in part, influenced me to vote out. If they couldn't put a coherent positive argument for remaining, instead of desperate scare tactics, it made me question their motives.

 

 

Status quo means nothing changes ie it will be as it is now.

That has never been the case in the EU and never will be.

 

... and that is still the crux of the matter. If the status quo means being subject to regulations that will be forced on member countries (who have little say and influence) which may be to their detriment, then it is not risk free. There is no "playing it safe" in remaining, as there is no "playing it safe" in leaving.

 

One of the points made on here about exiting the single market relates to the extra paperwork and regulation involved in trading with the EU. This is true, but only for the companies that will export to the EU. Under the current "status quo", all regulations relate to all businesses. So whilst some businesses may have extra paperwork if we exit, most businesses could have less paperwork. The changes in regulations will never stand still. This presents a risk at the end of the day as we don't know where it will end up

Edited 6 September, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[trousers]

Not true. Status quo can mean 'the situation as it is now' or 'existing state of affairs' which can also mean changes if you're happy that those changes are being managed by your elected representatives.

 

So, those that voted to join the Common Market in 1975 got 41 years of 'status quo'?