Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Verbal]

Yep, and they'll get violent if they don't get their way.

 

And as Tender threatened, it's all kicking off. The Brexit Betrayal March has started with literally tens of protesters. Well, ten.

 

Like the rest of the remoaner elite, I'm petrified.

[Tamesaint]

You remoaners just don't understand the machinations of Conservative Party politics at all. Boris and McVey are jockeying for pole position for when May is told to arrange the removal lorries to leave No.10. May's deal will be voted down the next time too and when the leadership competition comes, there is a majority of remoaners in the house to appease, but who realise that they will have to appoint a leaver in the final two to put before the membership, or the Party is toast.

 

I think that is patently obvious. The extremes which the leading Tories are going to in order to pander to the right wing fantasies of the Conservative membership are quite hilarious.

 

There is "The saj" (his own description of himself) who cracks down on and makes a big story out of the dozen illegal immigrants who crossed the Channel around Christmas. There is Gavin Williamson making bellicose comments about using his yet to be commissioned aircraft carrier against China. Jeremy Hunt is all of a sudden voting with the hard-core Brexiteers despite having been a leading Remainer during the referendum. Boris, Davis , Gove and even that intellectual Mcvey all fancy their chances of becoming leader and are pandering to the right wing gallery. It just needs Failing Grayling to throw his hat in the ring and all the incompetents will be there together.

 

In normal circumstances the electorate would give this lot a huge thumbs down at the next election. With the Labour party however in its current state , under its current leader and unable to capitalise on Tory divisions the scary prospect is that one of the Tory incompetents could end up as PM.

Edited 16 March, 2019 by Tamesaint

[Wes Tender]

The fact that you don’t see Remainers as Conservatives tells you where you heading and Heidi Allen is spot on - a minority xenophobic party whose members are rapidly passing away - Boris, Sheridan, Griffin, Farage, Chope, Bone, McVey, Foster, Redwood. You’ll be utterly unelectable. The best you could hope for is that you’ll retain 150 or so seats like the IDS days. Although I think even IDS would find you too far right and JRM would find you too in-intellectual to want to hang out, and prefer to be a maverick in a new centrist party of grown up Ex Tory and Labour MPs.

 

Still half asleep? Where have I ever suggested that I don't see remoaners as Conservatives? That's right, when you are fully awake, you will see that I haven't.

 

Heidi Allen? Elected on a Tory manifesto as a Conservative, promising to respect the referendum vote, leave the SM and CU, voted to trigger article 50. Resigned from the party, wants to have a second/third referendum on our EU membership when we haven't even left yet, but hasn't had the decency to offer her constituency the opportunity of re-electing her, or replacing her, as she is no longer a Conservative. A fine example of a democrat - not.

[ecuk268]

Heidi Allen? Elected on a Tory manifesto as a Conservative, promising to respect the referendum vote, leave the SM and CU, voted to trigger article 50. Resigned from the party, wants to have a second/third referendum on our EU membership when we haven't even left yet, but hasn't had the decency to offer her constituency the opportunity of re-electing her, or replacing her, as she is no longer a Conservative. A fine example of a democrat - not.

 

She needs a good spanking.

[Wes Tender]

If democracy means anything, if it is more than an empty assertion, it means the rule of the people. And by any measure, it is now clear where the main threat to democracy lies in Britain today: in parliament. All that is rotten in Britain has come together in the Palace of Westminster. The idea that the people are too stupid to be entrusted with the future of the country. The belief that Britain – and by extension the British people – is finished, too weak and pathetic to make its own way in the world (unlike virtually every other country). The notion that Britain cannot survive in any form except under rule from abroad. All this is the essence of reaction, distilled and purified with the sole purpose of steering decline. It denies the enormous productive force of the British people, among the most educated and skilled in the world. It denies the future.

 

So was this written by Boris? No, actually the Communist Party of GB

 

And with that, I'm happy to sit out the remaining few days until the 29th March to see what develops by then. I can see that you remoaners are all getting yourselves in an increasing frenzy as the date draws ever closer, so I'll leave you to argue among yourselves whilst I just observe your bile from outside your little bubble with an expression of detached amusement on my face.

 

Bye. x

[shurlock]

So was this written by Boris? No, actually the Communist Party of GB

 

And with that, I'm happy to sit out the remaining few days until the 29th March to see what develops by then. I can see that you remoaners are all getting yourselves in an increasing frenzy as the date draws ever closer, so I'll leave you to argue among yourselves whilst I just observe your bile from outside your little bubble with an expression of detached amusement on my face.

 

Bye. x

 

PM me if you need any help. The lines of communication are always open pal.

[CB Fry]

So was this written by Boris? No, actually the Communist Party of GB

 

And with that, I'm happy to sit out the remaining few days until the 29th March to see what develops by then. I can see that you remoaners are all getting yourselves in an increasing frenzy as the date draws ever closer, so I'll leave you to argue among yourselves whilst I just observe your bile from outside your little bubble with an expression of detached amusement on my face.

 

Bye. x

You're the one ranting and raving about "the worst deal in history" sunshine.

 

Anyway, I'll stick with my prediction. The deal will go through and you will celebrate celebrate celebrate.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

So was this written by Boris? No, actually the Communist Party of GB

 

And with that, I'm happy to sit out the remaining few days until the 29th March to see what develops by then. I can see that you remoaners are all getting yourselves in an increasing frenzy as the date draws ever closer, so I'll leave you to argue among yourselves whilst I just observe your bile from outside your little bubble with an expression of detached amusement on my face.

 

Bye. x

 

Please tell me this is forever...or are you just flouncing off again because you keep being made to look stupid?

[whelk]

Les - how’s Sunderland this morning?

 

Are they live streaming it?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Just gonna leave this one here...

 

[whelk]

And as Tender threatened, it's all kicking off. The Brexit Betrayal March has started with literally tens of protesters. Well, ten.

 

Like the rest of the remoaner elite, I'm petrified.

 

 

Man of his word, man of the people

[benjii]

Just gonna leave this one here...

 

 

 

Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice.

 

One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force. Evil always carries within itself the germ of its own subversion in that it leaves behind in human beings at least a sense of unease.

 

Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears; facts that contradict one’s prejudgment simply need not be believed – in such moments the stupid person even becomes critical – and when facts are irrefutable they are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this the stupid person, in contrast to the malicious one, is utterly self satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack. For that reason, greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one. Never again will we try to persuade the stupid person with reasons, for it is senseless and dangerous.

 

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison

[saint1977]

Not sure about that characterisation of JRM - a fair number of his supporters are thick, unapologetic racists. Not surprising when you’re happily hanging around with alt- or far-right figures like Candace Owens who inspired the shooter behind yesterday’s carnage in NZ or attending dinners with groups calling for the repatriation or black Britons.

 

He did apparently meet with Bannon as well so could be the case Shurlock. I always had the impression JRM was an obsessive nationalist in a technical sense rather than say Boris who doesnt try and hide his blatant racism.

 

Tragic events in NZ do demonstrate the need to curb the far right of which Bannon is definitely part. Alt Right right my arse, it’s no different to Tommy Sheridan, Nick Griffin or David Duke. Nazis are Nazis and there is one in the White House, crucial to keep them out of Downing Street.

 

According to the swivels on here Brexit is all about democracy. Did I imagine reading that JRM’s company has made £7m or so since the referendum?

[badgerx16]

According to the swivels on here Brexit is all about democracy.

Which is why we won't get a 2nd referendum, yet May's failed 'deal' will get a 3rd chance, despite losing twice to 2 of the 4 heaviest Commons defeats ever recorded.

Did I imagine reading that JRM’s company has made £7m or so since the referendum?

That is what has been widely reported. ( eg The Metro and C4 News )

[CB Fry]

https://amp.ft.com/content/b7336670-4711-11e9-b83b-0c525dad548f?__twitter_impression=true

 

Graham Brady urging his colleagues to vote for the deal on Tuesday.

 

Gobble gobble yum yum yum yum yum.

[Hamilton Saint]

Stupidity is a more dangerous enemy of the good than malice.

 

One may protest against evil; it can be exposed and, if need be, prevented by use of force. Evil always carries within itself the germ of its own subversion in that it leaves behind in human beings at least a sense of unease.

 

Against stupidity we are defenseless. Neither protests nor the use of force accomplish anything here; reasons fall on deaf ears; facts that contradict one’s prejudgment simply need not be believed – in such moments the stupid person even becomes critical – and when facts are irrefutable they are just pushed aside as inconsequential, as incidental. In all this the stupid person, in contrast to the malicious one, is utterly self satisfied and, being easily irritated, becomes dangerous by going on the attack. For that reason, greater caution is called for when dealing with a stupid person than with a malicious one. Never again will we try to persuade the stupid person with reasons, for it is senseless and dangerous.

 

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison

 

Bonhoeffer quoted on Saints Web Forum! Amazing. He was a great, great man. I studied his life and work many years ago (late 70s) at university.

[CB Fry]

 

Open wide. Yum yum yum yum yum.

[Nordic Saint]

Why there is so much fear of another referendum. The ever-widening gap:

 

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

[LGTL]

Why there is so much fear of another referendum. The ever-widening gap:

 

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/in-highsight-do-you-think-britain-was-right-or-wrong-to-vote-to-leave-the-eu/

 

Oh make no mistake, the fear of another referendum from the 52% is absolutely nothing to do with democracy but absolutely everything to do with the fact that now we've all seen what Brexit really is and what it really means, the leave vote would be annihilated.

[Guided Missile]

Oh make no mistake, the fear of another referendum from the 52% is absolutely nothing to do with democracy but absolutely everything to do with the fact that now we've all seen what Brexit really is and what it really means, the leave vote would be annihilated.

 

Maybe the leave vote would be less, maybe not, but thankfully, you won't get the chance to find out. You should have dug a bit deeper into the polls you were quoting. Here's some more:

 

1. Do you think it would help bring the country back together or make it even more divided if britain had a new referendum and voted to remain in the eu after all?
   
2. Do you think it would or would not respect the result of the original referendum if britain had a new referendum and voted to remain in the eu after all
   
3. Do you think that it would help bring the country back together or make it more divided if britain left the eu with an alternative deal that included remaining in the single market and customs union
   

There's no appetite in the country for a Losers Vote, mate...

[badgerx16]

There's no appetite in the country for a Losers Vote, mate...

So why might May's deal get another airing ?

[benjii]

I agree with GM. Don't have another vote. Just can the whole thing.

[scotty]

Oh make no mistake, the fear of another referendum from the 52% is absolutely nothing to do with democracy but absolutely everything to do with the fact that now we've all seen what Brexit really is and what it really means, the leave vote would be annihilated.

Personally, I very much doubt that. I'd say attitudes on both sides have hardened, and the result of another referendum would be similar to its predecessor.

[CB Fry]

Personally, I very much doubt that. I'd say attitudes on both sides have hardened, and the result of another referendum would be similar to its predecessor.

Referendums aren't won on the hard edges, - the 30% hard leave and 30% hard remain - have indeed hardened but they are irrelevant.

 

It's the middle few - probably 3 million people - that would swing it either way.

 

Anyway, it won't get to another referendum because Parliament will not vote for it. Corbyn is just going his "well, I tried" routine.

 

The deal will go through, eventually.

[scotty]

Referendums aren't won on the hard edges, - the 30% hard leave and 30% hard remain - have indeed hardened but they are irrelevant.

 

It's the middle few - probably 3 million people - that would swing it either way.

 

Anyway, it won't get to another referendum because Parliament will not vote for it. Corbyn is just going his "well, I tried" routine.

 

The deal will go through, eventually.

 

True enough. I didn’t say I thought another referendum would (or should) happen, just that if it did I think the outcome would be broadly similar.

 

Incidentally, if LGTL's assertion that the 52% who voted out are in fear of a rerun was accurate, well they wouldn't actually have any need to be worried, would they

[shurlock]

Maybe the leave vote would be less, maybe not, but thankfully, you won't get the chance to find out. You should have dug a bit deeper into the polls you were quoting. Here's some more:

 

1. Do you think it would help bring the country back together or make it even more divided if britain had a new referendum and voted to remain in the eu after all?
   
2. Do you think it would or would not respect the result of the original referendum if britain had a new referendum and voted to remain in the eu after all
   
3. Do you think that it would help bring the country back together or make it more divided if britain left the eu with an alternative deal that included remaining in the single market and customs union
   

There's no appetite in the country for a Losers Vote, mate...

 

JJ- got some piano wire ready for the traitors from the ERG who are going to sell you down the river?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

How's the march going guys?

[Verbal]

How's the march going guys?

 

I think it's going great! If you want to demonstrate the strength of feeling behind the Leave Means Leave spaffocracy, seeing ten people trudge through a field does exactly that.

 

If they could chant 'fu ck business' as they traipse through all those industrial estates their message will have got across brilliantly.

[Sheaf Saint]

I think it's going great! If you want to demonstrate the strength of feeling behind the Leave Means Leave spaffocracy, seeing ten people trudge through a field does exactly that.

 

If they could chant 'fu ck business' as they traipse through all those industrial estates their message will have got across brilliantly.

 

Such passionate believers in the cause, obviously...

 

https://twitter.com/billiebobs66/status/1107554105763995648

[Guided Missile]

JJ- got some piano wire ready for the traitors from the ERG who are going to sell you down the river?

They need a motion to vote for, sh!t 4 brains....

John Bercow has warned Theresa May he will block any attempt to schedule a third meaningful vote unless she makes substantial changes to the motion being voted on by MPs. In a major intervention, the Speaker of the House of Commons told MPs that he would rebuff any attempt to bring back the same motion unless there were “substantial” changes made to it.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

They need a motion to vote for, sh!t 4 brains....

 

Oh well, massive delay to Brexit it is then!

[Verbal]

Oh well, massive delay to Brexit it is then!

 

So who on here is stupid enough to think that anything is going to happen on 29 March?

 

Oh, and BTW, excellent trolling by Bercow just now. 3rd attempt at getting the withdrawal agreement passed has just taken a massive constitutional hit.

[Window Cleaner]

Oh well, massive delay to Brexit it is then!

 

Provided none of the other 27 nations decides to veto that for some reason known to themselves.

[Tamesaint]

Looks like some piano wire will have to be delivered to the Speaker's house

[Nordic Saint]

Provided none of the other 27 nations decides to veto that for some reason known to themselves.

 

Farage is trying to persuade Italy's new right-wing alliance to veto the British government's request. He reminds me more and more of Oswald Mosley, who was a friend of Mussolini.

[Window Cleaner]

Farage is trying to persuade Italy's new right-wing alliance to veto the British government's request. He reminds me more and more of Oswald Mosley, who was a friend of Mussolini.

 

But the Italians aren't having any truck with that. It's more likely to be Lithuania or Estonia who are just hacked off with the whole affair and want it over and done with.

[Guided Missile]

But mama said you can't hurry leave

No you just have to wait

She said leave don't come easy

It's a game of give and take

You can't hurry leave

No, you just have to wait

You gotta trust, give it time

No matter how long it takes

[Window Cleaner]

But mama said you can't hurry leave

No you just have to wait

She said leave don't come easy

It's a game of give and take

You can't hurry leave

No, you just have to wait

You gotta trust, give it time

No matter how long it takes

 

But in this case Mama is wrong. The longer it takes the more likely it becomes that it won't happen at all. The Hard Brexiters had their chance, they got picky and now it's highly likely that Brexit just won't happen. Johnson and his ilk have shafted themselves.

The remainers will have won what they lost in the referendum, which was always their goal.

Edited 18 March, 2019 by Window Cleaner

[Unbelievable Jeff]

If Labour were intelligent, which they're not, as soon as the deadline is extended they should get rid of Corbyn, and then Brexit will be cancelled.

[Verbal]

But mama said you can't hurry leave

No you just have to wait

She said leave don't come easy

It's a game of give and take

You can't hurry leave

No, you just have to wait

You gotta trust, give it time

No matter how long it takes

 

Does the chorus explain how you want us to trade on WTF rules?

[trousers]

Given the EU don't want the UK to leave, isn't it obvious to them that their best tactic now is to engineer a veto on an extension to article 50? That will just leave 'no deal' and 'article 50 revocation' as the only two options left on the table before 29th March. Given that scenario, isn't it more likely the Commons will vote for revocation, citing it as the lesser of two evils?

[aintforever]

They will probably allow an extension on the condition of there being a second refurendum.

[Portugalsaint]

John Bercow has thrown a spanner into the works. The meaningful vote cannot be bought back to the table in its present form.

 

We will leave on 29th with no deal unless TM comes back from the council of Europe with an extension. Brexit is cancelled.

 

Kirsty on BBC2 just said ******** shock horror.

 

There is so much swivelling now, it’s becoming swivillier by the minute.

Edited 18 March, 2019 by Portugalsaint

[Weston Super Saint]

But in this case Mama is wrong. The longer it takes the more likely it becomes that it won't happen at all. The Hard Brexiters had their chance, they got picky and now it's highly likely that Brexit just won't happen. Johnson and his ilk have shafted themselves.

The remainers will have won what they lost in the referendum, which was always their goal.

 

The legal, default position, is that the UK will leave the EU on the 29th March whether there is a deal or not.

 

The only way this can possibly not happen is if the EU grant an extension to Article 50, which 1. We haven't even asked for yet and 2. The EU have said will not be granted unless there is a realistic chance of the deadlock being broken at the end of the extension.

 

So far as I can tell, May's only bargaining chip to ask for an extension was to get her deal voted for in a third vote - which Bercow has now said cannot happen - and use the extension time to make arrangements for the UK to leave under that deal.

 

Frankly, it looks more and more likely that March 29th will result in the default position of leaving without a deal - unless May and the EU can come up with a deal that satisfies both sides in the next nine days and get it passed through a vote in the Commons - something which they have been unable to achieve in the last two years!

[Window Cleaner]

They will probably allow an extension on the condition of there being a second refurendum.

 

A condition that no self respecting nation could ever accept. Mind you the Irish caved in over abortion when then EU threatened to turn off the money tap if they didn't. Then again it's the Irish.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

We leave without a deal, it's the end of the Conservative party for a long time...therefore I can only see a long Article 50 delay, or a revocation of article 50, with the thought to reinstate once we have a plan of what we actually want.

[trousers]

We leave without a deal, it's the end of the Conservative party for a long time...therefore I can only see a long Article 50 delay, or a revocation of article 50, with the thought to reinstate once we have a plan of what we actually want.

What are the EU rules on re-triggering article 50 a further time, having previously revoked it?

 

I've got a feeling there's a "one time only" clause in there somewhere which prevents a country triggering it more than once? Although, maybe that's conditional on the circumstances. (For example, perhaps a country can revoke then invoke again if the basis on which they want to leave is fundamentally different to the first time?)

 

If it's technically possible for a country to invoke article 50 again in the future, after a revokation, then maybe that's the way May sells it in the end. i.e. "I'm reluctantly pressing the revoke button at the 11th hour as it's better to pause and possibly reinvoke it later than go out now on no-deal". In other words, it could be sold as just an alternative method of delaying Brexit (if the EU veto our request for a delay) rather than canning it altogether, in order to get enough MPs onside.

 

Dunno. Usual thinking-out-loud stuff from yours truly.

Edited 19 March, 2019 by trousers

[hypochondriac]

What are the EU rules on re-triggering article 50 a further time, having previously revoked it?

 

I've got a feeling there's a "one time one" clause in there somewhere which prevents a country triggering it more than once. Although, maybe that's conditional on the circumstances. (For example, perhaps a country can revoke then invoke again if the basis on which they want to leave is fundamentally different to the first time?)

 

If it's technically possible for a country to invoke article 50 again in the future, after a revokation, then maybe that's the way May sells it in the end. i.e. "I'm reluctantly pressing the revoke button at the 11th hour as it's better to pause and possibly reinvoke it later than go out now on no-deal". In other words, it could be sold as just an alternative method of delaying Brexit rather than canning it altogether, in order to get enough MPs onside.

 

Dunno. Usual thinking-out-loud stuff from yours truly.

From memory the ruling from the courts said something about not being able to use article 50 in bad faith- so we can't revoke it then invoke it again as a negotiating tactic which seems fair enough to me.

 

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[trousers]

From memory the ruling from the courts said something about not being able to use article 50 in bad faith- so we can't revoke it then invoke it again as a negotiating tactic which seems fair enough to me.

 

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Rings a bell. I guess we could argue it wasn't in bad faith but a necessity in the circumstances. All a tad subjective perhaps.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

From memory the ruling from the courts said something about not being able to use article 50 in bad faith- so we can't revoke it then invoke it again as a negotiating tactic which seems fair enough to me.

 

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

 

This isn't in bad faith, so I don't think it would be an issue - it was triggered too early, we all know that, and it least now we know what "deal" is possible with the EU.

 

For me, the biggest issue is still NI and contravening the GFA. If the vote was held again, and it was well known that it could lead to a return to sectarian violence in the British Isles, I think it would lead to further votes changing sides.