Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[RedArmy]

All I keep hearing is we must be allowed a second (AKA 4th) vote now that we have all of the facts.

 

Can anybody give me a list of the FACTS that we have now that we didn't have before?

 

Thanks in advance xx

[Verbal]

All I keep hearing is we must be allowed a second (AKA 4th) vote now that we have all of the facts.

 

Can anybody give me a list of the FACTS that we have now that we didn't have before?

 

Thanks in advance xx

 

Hello again, Mr RedJihad, and thanks for the kisses

 

Could you post any public discussion, by UK politicians, before the referendum date on the following:

 

Article 50

 

The customs union

 

The single market

 

The Good Friday agreement

 

WTO

 

Non-tariff barriers

 

Just-in-time supply for manufacturing

 

Passporting (or financial services - not those ridiculous arguments for 'blue' passports)

 

Citizen's rights (EU in the UK and UK in EU) after Brexit

 

How long it will take to get the EU's trade deals replicated with non-EU states

 

Inward investment

 

The impact of the withdrawal of EU regional and development investment

 

The imminent accession of Turkey

 

...etc...

 

V xxxx

[Tamesaint]

Hello again, Mr RedJihad, and thanks for the kisses

 

Could you post any public discussion, by UK politicians, before the referendum date on the following:

 

Article 50

 

The customs union

 

The single market

 

The Good Friday agreement

 

WTO

 

Non-tariff barriers

 

Just-in-time supply for manufacturing

 

Passporting (or financial services - not those ridiculous arguments for 'blue' passports)

 

Citizen's rights (EU in the UK and UK in EU) after Brexit

 

How long it will take to get the EU's trade deals replicated with non-EU states

 

Inward investment

 

The impact of the withdrawal of EU regional and development investment

 

The imminent accession of Turkey

 

...etc...

 

V xxxx

 

Liam Fox said that to prevent trade disruption we would replicate current trade deals with 40 countries. So far trade deals have been signed with ..... 0 countries.

 

So unless Fox pulls his finger out, stops blaming others and does something pretty fast I think it will be trade disruption !!

[CB Fry]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-deal-vote-theresa-may-second-referendum-vote-election-yvette-cooper-a8736216.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

 

 

This will take us to the endgame, which I believe I predicted broadly something like this on this thread several weeks ago.

 

A version of the May deal - not particularly different to how it is right now - will get through because it will eventually win more support than all other options.

 

No deal will not happen, and once the swivel-eyed MPs understand this and can feel the hot breath of a second ref/a general election/A50 extension coming, they will vote the deal through.

 

Rees Mogg has already started the groundwork. He will vote Deal vs every option that stops Brexit.

 

The Endgame is coming, and May's robotic repetition will prove to be broadly the correct strategy in the context of the most stupid thing this country has ever done, of course.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-deal-vote-theresa-may-second-referendum-vote-election-yvette-cooper-a8736216.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

 

 

This will take us to the endgame, which I believe I predicted broadly something like this on this thread several weeks ago.

 

A version of the May deal - not particularly different to how it is right now - will get through because it will eventually win more support than all other options.

 

No deal will not happen, and once the swivel-eyed MPs understand this and can feel the hot breath of a second ref/a general election/A50 extension coming, they will vote the deal through.

 

Rees Mogg has already started the groundwork. He will vote Deal vs every option that stops Brexit.

 

The Endgame is coming, and May's robotic repetition will prove to be broadly the correct strategy in the context of the most stupid thing this country has ever done, of course.

 

Not only that, but then the Tories will be able to push the line that Labour under Corbyn are enemy's of Democracy, and that Labour voted the only leave option down.

 

Corbyn's been one step behind the whole time - and it takes a lot to get schooled by that moron May.

[RedArmy]

Hello again, Mr RedJihad, and thanks for the kisses

 

Could you post any public discussion, by UK politicians, before the referendum date on the following:

 

Article 50

 

The customs union

 

The single market

 

The Good Friday agreement

 

WTO

 

Non-tariff barriers

 

Just-in-time supply for manufacturing

 

Passporting (or financial services - not those ridiculous arguments for 'blue' passports)

 

Citizen's rights (EU in the UK and UK in EU) after Brexit

 

How long it will take to get the EU's trade deals replicated with non-EU states

 

Inward investment

 

The impact of the withdrawal of EU regional and development investment

 

The imminent accession of Turkey

 

...etc...

 

V xxxx

 

Nice try but that's not a list of FACTS.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Hello again, Mr RedJihad, and thanks for the kisses

 

Could you post any public discussion, by UK politicians, before the referendum date on the following:

 

Article 50

 

The customs union

 

The single market

 

The Good Friday agreement

 

WTO

 

Non-tariff barriers

 

Just-in-time supply for manufacturing

 

Passporting (or financial services - not those ridiculous arguments for 'blue' passports)

 

Citizen's rights (EU in the UK and UK in EU) after Brexit

 

How long it will take to get the EU's trade deals replicated with non-EU states

 

Inward investment

 

The impact of the withdrawal of EU regional and development investment

 

The imminent accession of Turkey

 

...etc...

 

V xxxx

 

 

Were you asleep during the campaign, for somebody who claims to be some sort of political expert, you really didn’t pay much attention to the issue did you?

 

Here’s some to be getting on with, if there’s a rerun I suggest you pay a bit more attention.

 

 

Single Market.

 

http://

 

A50 and WTO

 

http:// https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uOmc9LmEWk0

 

 

Irish border

 

http:// http://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/06/16/news/david-cameron-warns-of-post-brexit-border-controls-564340/

 

Customs union

 

http://

 

Turkey

 

http://

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[RedArmy]

This is your chance to shine now and look like less of a lunatic.

 

I'm not asking for what politicians have said pre and post June 2016 because we can argue about lies from both sides until the cows come home.. I'm not asking for opinions, hypotheticals etc.

 

I want to know what these so called cold hard FACTS are that are public information now that weren't available 3 years ago.

 

There must be plenty if we are being told we must have a second (4th) vote now that we can vote with all the facts, so it shouldn't take you long.

 

Thanks xx

[LGTL]

Highly unlikely they'll be a second vote or a general election, and there sure as hell won't be a no deal.

 

We'll leave, but will still be a valuable part of the EU in all but name. Those that voted to leave think they get what they voted for (especially with the threat of a second vote), when actually it'll be the softest of soft exits and we can all be thankful of that.

[aintforever]

Not only that, but then the Tories will be able to push the line that Labour under Corbyn are enemy's of Democracy, and that Labour voted the only leave option down.

 

Corbyn's been one step behind the whole time - and it takes a lot to get schooled by that moron May.

 

But the Tory Brexiteers have spent the last month and a half saying how sh!t the deal is and what a disaster it will be for the country. They are not going to look great if they push it through, they will look even worse if Brexit ends up making a mess of the economy. All for the sake of not letting the public have a final say.

[Verbal]

This is your chance to shine now and look like less of a lunatic.

 

I'm not asking for what politicians have said pre and post June 2016 because we can argue about lies from both sides until the cows come home.. I'm not asking for opinions, hypotheticals etc.

 

I want to know what these so called cold hard FACTS are that are public information now that weren't available 3 years ago.

 

There must be plenty if we are being told we must have a second (4th) vote now that we can vote with all the facts, so it shouldn't take you long.

 

Thanks xx

 

How's that ever going to work Mr Jihad? In your world, facts don't exist if you simply choose not to believe them. That's what a cult is. (Having said that, I've had more luck talking to actual Jihadists than Brexit versions).

 

What I've been saying is that the whole debate has moved miles since 2016, and there is now a recognition, among rational people, that the version of Brexit sold to the public in 2016 was false: the cake-and-eat-it option does not and never has existed. We now know that - or at least the sentient ones among us do. That is a FACT (as you call it).

 

So the choice is simple: do we accept an economically diminished Britain, with thousands of job losses, or do we think again, now that we know the terms of the 'deal' and know a great deal more about what the parameters of any relationship with the EU are.

 

As Lord Crap accidentally demonstrates, it's not possible to compare 2016 with now without realising how massively things have changed. His posting of the Irish border issue, as discussed in 2016, doesn't even mention how the GFA will prove such an overwhelming obstacle. He lamely uses a Cameron speech in 2010, in which he's blowing smoke to a turkish audience, to suggest that Turkish accession had any chance (it did not). Etc, etc.

 

By the way, I'd add that some economists have been quite clear about job losses. 800,000 plus in motor manufacturing alone, which will be all but wiped out. Quite some price to pay (although not by you, right Jack?)

[Unbelievable Jeff]

But the Tory Brexiteers have spent the last month and a half saying how sh!t the deal is and what a disaster it will be for the country. They are not going to look great if they push it through, they will look even worse if Brexit ends up making a mess of the economy. All for the sake of not letting the public have a final say.

 

But they delivered on the referendum result - don't forget that people are so sick of it they just want something done. This way they are seeing the ERG compromise, and it makes them look like a United party. You'll then have the remain part of the Labour party ripping Corbyn a new one because he didn't do enough.

[CB Fry]

But the Tory Brexiteers have spent the last month and a half saying how sh!t the deal is and what a disaster it will be for the country. They are not going to look great if they push it through, they will look even worse if Brexit ends up making a mess of the economy. All for the sake of not letting the public have a final say.

 

Well, they will push it through, once they realise they've got nowhere else to go.

 

And you seem to have missed the fact that these people have no shame, as demonstrated for the last three years. They couldn't give two sh its if you don't think they "look great".

 

Bit late for you to worry about letting the public "have their say" after you bottled out of voting the first time round.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Well, they will push it through, once they realise they've got nowhere else to go.

 

I’m not so sure.

 

How do we get to cancelling Brexit, surely it’s a second referendum? The manoeuvres, plots and frankly the people involved (Blair, Madleson etc) in getting there, are going to harm the Remain side. I reckon there’s 50-60 Tory MP’s that’ll take the chance they’ll win a rerun. Even if they don’t, The next election will return a lot of Brexit betrayal candidates, and they’ll go again.

 

Personally, I’d have thought May’s soft exit deal would appeal to all but the Adonis wing of Remain.

 

 

 

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[aintforever]

Well, they will push it through, once they realise they've got nowhere else to go.

 

And you seem to have missed the fact that these people have no shame, as demonstrated for the last three years. They couldn't give two sh its if you don't think they "look great".

 

Bit late for you to worry about letting the public "have their say" after you bottled out of voting the first time round.

 

I dunno. May’s deal was ripped to shreds in Parliament last time, I just can’t see it getting through.

 

It’s one thing voting for it because they think it’s a decent deal but voting for something they have openly said will make the country worse is just plain bonkers.

[Weston Super Saint]

Almost exactly one year ago : https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/brexit-theresa-may-tells-eu-no-deal-better-bad-deal-britain/

 

Having had her deal destroyed in Parliament, the slippery snake has changed her mind : https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/mays-new-brexit-pitch-my-bad-deal-is-better-than-no-deal/

 

This is the person in charge of negotiating for us - no wonder we're in such bad shape!

 

#MSS

[Lord Duckhunter]

Almost exactly one year ago : https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/17/brexit-theresa-may-tells-eu-no-deal-better-bad-deal-britain/

 

Having had her deal destroyed in Parliament, the slippery snake has changed her mind : https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/01/mays-new-brexit-pitch-my-bad-deal-is-better-than-no-deal/

 

This is the person in charge of negotiating for us - no wonder we're in such bad shape!

 

#MSS

 

According to James Forsyth tonight, she’s decided this cross party reach out hasn’t worked so she’s changing tack. He claims she told the cabinet in todays conference call that she’s seeking something on the backstop to get the ERG & DUP onside. She’s joked previously that the cabinet use a Forsyth App rather than Whats App as he always seems to be ITK on cabinet discussions.

 

She seems to be a pathological liar when it comes to Brexit,and I doubt the EU would agree anything, but you never know. I never understood why she went searching for votes by talking to remoaners like PC, SNP, Lucas and the Labour Blairites, when she only needs to get the Tory backbench & DUP onboard. Perhaps she was playing them. If and it’s a ****ing big if, she gets something, Wollaston, Grieve and other sopping wet remoaners will have to show their true colours. I’m sure they’ll be half a dozen turncoats but maybe Field, Hoey, Mann and other solid Labour democrats could cancel them out.

 

 

 

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[CB Fry]

 

Protestant Jesus and Catholic Jesus wept.

[badgerx16]

 

Protestant Jesus and Catholic Jesus wept.

Considering that a car bomb was set off in (London)Derry on Saturday, she had better tread carefully around that potential powder keg.

Edited 20 January, 2019 by badgerx16

[Guided Missile]

Considering that a car bomb was set off in (London)Derry on Saturday, she had better tread carefully around that potential powder keg.

So, the British government should moderate their Brexit plans, to prevent the Real IRA from setting off car bombs in the UK?

[doddisalegend]

All I keep hearing is we must be allowed a second (AKA 4th) vote now that we have all of the facts.

 

Can anybody give me a list of the FACTS that we have now that we didn't have before?

 

Thanks in advance xx

So you knew what the deal between the EU and the UK looked like when you voted leave before any deal had been negotiated? That's impressive can I have next week's lotto numbers.

 

The first refferendum was flawed for the public to be properly informed a leave deal should have been negotiated first the vote could have been a simple two part vote first leave or remain second if the vote is to leave do you want the deal or no deal. Everyone would have had a better idea what they where voting for then. Both sides lied during the refferendum a lot of those lies would have been exposed if we had negotiated a leave deal first for people to vote on.

 

At the very list we should get a second vote on a deal or no deal rather than leaving it to the charlatans in parliament even if remain isn't added back in to the options.

 

 

I'll throw a question back at the leavers why are you so scared of another vote? I keep hearing it would be the death of democracy how so? If we have another vote and leave wins happy days for you if leave losses than the public have changed their mind either way democracy wins so you are in a win win situation. The only reason to not want another vote is you're scared you'd lose it..

 

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[badgerx16]

So, the British government should moderate their Brexit plans, to prevent the Real IRA from setting off car bombs in the UK?

Did I say that ? Teresa May is desperately casting around for a way to make her completely unpalatable mess of an ugly duckling, overwhelmingly rejected by Parliament, into a graceful swan. If she tries to achieve this by rewriting elements of the GFA, she will need to be very well advised, very clear as to what she is, or more importantly is not, saying, and certain that she isn't selling the progress made in NI down the river purely for her own ego and vanity.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

The first refferendum was flawed for the public to be properly informed a leave deal should have been negotiated first the vote could have been a simple two part vote first leave or remain second if the vote is to leave do you want the deal or no deal.

 

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The EU won’t negotiate until A50 is triggered.

 

So what you’re suggesting is that Cameron should have triggered A50, negotiated a withdrawal agreement then gone back to the country on the basis of that withdrawal agreement. We still wouldn’t know the future relationship, because the EU won’t agree that until you’ve left.

 

You haven’t really thought this through have you.

 

 

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[Guided Missile]

Did I say that ? Teresa May is desperately casting around for a way to make her completely unpalatable mess of an ugly duckling, overwhelmingly rejected by Parliament, into a graceful swan. If she tries to achieve this by rewriting elements of the GFA, she will need to be very well advised, very clear as to what she is, or more importantly is not, saying, and certain that she isn't selling the progress made in NI down the river purely for her own ego and vanity.

 

This is what you posted:

 

Considering that a car bomb was set off in (London)Derry on Saturday, she had better tread carefully around that potential powder keg.

 

Do you have any other terrorist organisations or countries, you think the UK should surrender it's sovereignty to?

[badgerx16]

This is what you posted:

 

Do you have any other terrorist organisations or countries, you think the UK should surrender it's sovereignty to?

"She had better tread carefully", does not say "she should surrender sovereignty". Why do you always look for arguments ?

[Wes Tender]

So you knew what the deal between the EU and the UK looked like when you voted leave before any deal had been negotiated? That's impressive can I have next week's lotto numbers.

 

The first refferendum was flawed for the public to be properly informed a leave deal should have been negotiated first the vote could have been a simple two part vote first leave or remain second if the vote is to leave do you want the deal or no deal. Everyone would have had a better idea what they where voting for then. Both sides lied during the refferendum a lot of those lies would have been exposed if we had negotiated a leave deal first for people to vote on.

 

At the very list we should get a second vote on a deal or no deal rather than leaving it to the charlatans in parliament even if remain isn't added back in to the options.

 

 

I'll throw a question back at the leavers why are you so scared of another vote? I keep hearing it would be the death of democracy how so? If we have another vote and leave wins happy days for you if leave losses than the public have changed their mind either way democracy wins so you are in a win win situation. The only reason to not want another vote is you're scared you'd lose it..

 

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Your proposal for how the referendum should have been handled in your opinion, was totally impractical, as the EU would not have played ball, as they are not doing now. In any event, would the EU have had any incentive to have offered a good deal to us, knowing that it would have encouraged a vote to leave, and also furnished good reasons for other member states to follow us out?

 

I would be perfectly happy to have a third referendum vote on our membership of the EEC/EU with a bilateral choice of May's deal or leave on WTO terms. But those who want a losers' referendum before we have even left the EU want to have Remain on the ballot. The only problem with this referendum you are proposing, is the length of time it would take, when we should be out on WTO terms on 29th March anyway, unless we arrange a deal with the EU before then. So what would be the point of it?

 

I'll throw your last question back at you. Following the next General Election, should we ignore the result and campaign to have it overturned a few months later? You just don't understand this democracy lark, do you? As you believe that you're so sound on what you think is democratic, please do let us know whether you think that there should have been referenda held for each of the treaties that we signed which altered the entire basis of the original reason that we joined the so-called Common Market? Had they taken place, we wouldn't be having this situation now.

Edited 21 January, 2019 by Wes Tender

[Highfield Saint]

https://thebrexitsyndicate.com

[Highfield Saint]

The Malign Incompetence of the British Ruling Class

 

From David Cameron, who recklessly gambled his country’s future on a referendum in order to isolate some whingers

in his Conservative Party, to the opportunistic Boris Johnson, who jumped on the Brexit bandwagon to secure the prime

ministerial chair once warmed by his role model Winston Churchill, and the top-hatted, theatrically retro Jacob Rees-Mogg,

whose fund management company has set up an office within the European Union even as he vehemently scorns it, the

British political class has offered to the world an astounding spectacle of mendacious, intellectually limited hustlers.

 

Even a columnist for The Economist, an organ of the British elite, now professes dismay over “Oxford chums” who coast

through life on “bluff rather than expertise.” “Britain,” the magazine belatedly lamented last month, “is governed by a

self-involved clique that rewards group membership above competence and self-confidence above expertise.” In Brexit,

the British “chumocracy,” the column declared, “has finally met its Waterloo.”

 

Pankaj Mishra, in the New York Times 17/01/2019

[Wes Tender]

The Malign Incompetence of the British Ruling Class

 

From David Cameron, who recklessly gambled his country’s future on a referendum in order to isolate some whingers

in his Conservative Party, to the opportunistic Boris Johnson, who jumped on the Brexit bandwagon to secure the prime

ministerial chair once warmed by his role model Winston Churchill, and the top-hatted, theatrically retro Jacob Rees-Mogg,

whose fund management company has set up an office within the European Union even as he vehemently scorns it, the

British political class has offered to the world an astounding spectacle of mendacious, intellectually limited hustlers.

 

Even a columnist for The Economist, an organ of the British elite, now professes dismay over “Oxford chums” who coast

through life on “bluff rather than expertise.” “Britain,” the magazine belatedly lamented last month, “is governed by a

self-involved clique that rewards group membership above competence and self-confidence above expertise.” In Brexit,

the British “chumocracy,” the column declared, “has finally met its Waterloo.”

 

Pankaj Mishra, in the New York Times 17/01/2019

 

LOL! Glorious satirical stuff. I think that there is enough material here and in the Brexit syndicate site for a political comedy film, what with the conspiracy theories that abound and are the basis for it. However, it is all very well claiming that there is a conspiracy on the Brexit side with backing for this particular agenda and the lies and deceit which are a part of it, but to be really credible as a film, it would need to show the agenda of the other side, pressing for a Federal United States of Europe and the backers financing them, the likes of Soros and the multi national business lobby.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Soubry must of been on the lash again at the weekend. Told Marr that she didn’t stand on the Conservative manifesto in 2017.

 

 

http://

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[shurlock]

LOL! Glorious satirical stuff. I think that there is enough material here and in the Brexit syndicate site for a political comedy film, what with the conspiracy theories that abound and are the basis for it. However, it is all very well claiming that there is a conspiracy on the Brexit side with backing for this particular agenda and the lies and deceit which are a part of it, but to be really credible as a film, it would need to show the agenda of the other side, pressing for a Federal United States of Europe and the backers financing them, the likes of Soros and the multi national business lobby.

 

It always comes back to Soros, doesn't it Les. Why is that?

[Wes Tender]

It always comes back to Soros, doesn't it Les. Why is that?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/11/george-soros-proud-donating-anti-brexit-campaign

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/29/george-soros-drastic-action-needed-for-eurozone-to-survive

 

Merely in the interests of balance, as I said, Shurlock. We have this comedy organisation, The Brexit Syndicate, formed to highlight their Brexit conspiracy theory and listing the main protagonists and the organisations behind it. Remain's financing was not any more squeaky clean than Leave's and there are as many groups and players in it campaigning to thwart Brexit. Leave won the democratic referendum vote, and if there are several organisations formed to see it thorough, that is largely because they need to counter the number of organisations formed by the establishment attempting to stop it.

[shurlock]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/feb/11/george-soros-proud-donating-anti-brexit-campaign

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/29/george-soros-drastic-action-needed-for-eurozone-to-survive

 

Merely in the interests of balance, as I said, Shurlock. We have this comedy organisation, The Brexit Syndicate, formed to highlight their Brexit conspiracy theory and listing the main protagonists and the organisations behind it. Remain's financing was not any more squeaky clean than Leave's and there are as many groups and players in it campaigning to thwart Brexit. Leave won the democratic referendum vote, and if there are several organisations formed to see it thorough, that is largely because they need to counter the number of organisations formed by the establishment attempting to stop it.

 

You said that Soros is funding those pressing for a Federal United States of Europe. Those links are a nonsequitur pal.

 

What do you make of Pankaj Mishra's article?

[Wes Tender]

You said that Soros is funding those pressing for a Federal United States of Europe. Those links are a nonsequitur pal.

 

What do you make of Pankaj Mishra's article?

 

I think that he should stick to writing fiction and travel guides instead of comedy.

[shurlock]

I think that he should stick to writing fiction and travel guides instead of comedy.

 

Sounds like you're bit of an authority on his work Les. How do you think Britain handled the process of decolonisation in India?

[Highfield Saint]

I think that he should stick to writing fiction and travel guides instead of comedy.

 

Taking the embellished rhetoric away Mishra's points are hard to dispute though.

 

p.s. your second Guardian link says that Soros was "Echoing a call made by David Cameron before the Brexit vote, he argued for the EU to allow member states to pursue “multi-track” relations with the bloc, rather than “ever closer union”."?

[Wes Tender]

Sounds like you're bit of an authority on his work Les. How do you think Britain handled the process of decolonisation in India?

 

It was before I was born, Shurlock. Tell, me, when it was decided that India would gain their independence, was there a movement and plans to try and reverse the decision?

[shurlock]

It was before I was born, Shurlock. Tell, me, when it was decided that India would gain their independence, was there a movement and plans to try and reverse the decision?

 

That's the problem with you Les - you have zero understanding of history.

[Verbal]

It was before I was born, Shurlock. Tell, me, when it was decided that India would gain their independence, was there a movement and plans to try and reverse the decision?

 

Yes. And you don't mean 'independence' alone because partition came as part of the package. There are plenty on both sides who wanted to reverse partition, and still do.

 

There was also a determined bid to delay partition because it was being done on such a tight schedule that it was bound to lead to disaster. But the desire to just get on with it meant the original schedule was trictly adhered to, resulting in the deaths of more than a million people.

[moonraker]

A

Yes. And you don't mean 'independence' alone because partition came as part of the package. There are plenty on both sides who wanted to reverse partition, and still do.

 

There was also a determined bid to delay partition because it was being done on such a tight schedule that it was bound to lead to disaster. But the desire to just get on with it meant the original schedule was trictly adhered to, resulting in the deaths of more than a million people.

and led to 3 wars and ongoing terroism and insurgency, innocent people are still paying with their lives.

[Wes Tender]

I know all about Indian Independence and partition. My comment about the movements to stop it were very much tongue in cheek. The situation of us leaving the EU is totally different from India's independence from us and wouldn't have been mentioned in the same breath as Indian Independence had it not been for this Indian writer sticking his oar in with his comical and faulty analysis.

[shurlock]

Les did you go to this?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/21/england-rebel-spirit-no-deal-brexit

[Unbelievable Jeff]

http://news.sky.com/story/cross-channel-freight-trade-could-drop-by-87-govt-document-warns-11614002

 

Cross-Channel freight trade could drop by between 75% and 87% for six months in the event of a "no-deal" Brexit, according to a Border Force document obtained by Sky News.

 

A slide from an internal Government presentation marked "Official-Sensitive" and titled "Freight Traffic Contingency Assumptions" is a recent internal assessment much of which was omitted from public No Deal documentation.

 

 

It reads: "The reasonable worst case flow through the Short Straits is reduced to between 13% and 25% of current capacity for a period of between 3-6 months".

 

 

This is a reference to traffic from Dover-Calais and in the Channel Tunnel.

 

This occurs because of matters out of the control of the UK Government - the imposition of "third country" checks on UK trade by all EU countries and France in particular.

 

 

The document assumes: "The French will apply at least the legal minimum of third country customs controls on all goods and sanitay and phytosanitary (SPS) checks on specified food and agricultural products. This includes the imposition of 100% customs documents checks".

 

Even after an initial shock, Border Force assumes that a "new normal" for cross Channel freight will be 50-100% of current flows lasting "until significant changes are made to improve border arrangements such as automation".

 

The document suggests that Agrifood exports (up to 15% of goods trade) would all have to be rerouted away from Calais and the Channel Tunnel to ports with an existing Border Inspection Post, such as Zeebrugge or Rotterdam, but that "it is unclear whether they will have sufficient capacity , causing delay at these locations".

 

The document acknowledges that a "significant proportion of traders will not be ready for D1ND (Day One No Deal)".

[Verbal]

I know all about Indian Independence and partition.

 

No. You don't. Not realising that independence and partition are intimately bound makes you a Grade F dunce.

 

My comment about the movements to stop it were very much tongue in cheek.

 

A lie.

 

The situation of us leaving the EU is totally different from India's independence from us.

 

On the contrary, this is yet another instance where you've pulled the pin on a grenade and forgotten to throw it. The 'situation' is importantly analogous. In both cases, severe warnings were given about the devastating consequences of sticking to a timetable that no one in their right mind would think was workable. In both cases, the warnings have been ignored.

 

It wouldn't have been mentioned in the same breath as Indian Independence had it not been for this Indian writer sticking his oar in with his comical and faulty analysis.

 

So this is you being the miserable little racist, infuriated by the cheek of a brown-skinned man 'sticking his oar in' to white, Anglo-Saxon folks' business.

[Wes Tender]

No. You don't. Not realising that independence and partition are intimately bound makes you a Grade F dunce.

 

A lie.

 

On the contrary, this is yet another instance where you've pulled the pin on a grenade and forgotten to throw it. The 'situation' is importantly analogous. In both cases, severe warnings were given about the devastating consequences of sticking to a timetable that no one in their right mind would think was workable. In both cases, the warnings have been ignored.

 

So this is you being the miserable little racist, infuriated by the cheek of a brown-skinned man 'sticking his oar in' to white, Anglo-Saxon folks' business.

 

Suit yourself imagining that you know what I know, or think, or feel. Personally I really couldn't give a toss.

[Wes Tender]

Les did you go to this?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/21/england-rebel-spirit-no-deal-brexit

 

No. I had already gone to the Leave means Leave rally at the Bournemouth International Centre, so I saw no point.

[buctootim]

71% of voters in Northern Ireland voted for the Good Friday Agreement on 81% turnout and 94% voted for it in the Republic - which essentially ended sectarian violence in NI. The DUP were the only party in NI to campaign against it.

 

May is unfit to be PM is she doesn't understand that messing with the GFA approved by the overwhelming majority of voters in Ireland is gutter moral free politics. And for what? - to suck up to the 'No Surrender' DUP AND giving a £1billion sweetener of other peoples money to garner votes for discredited and voted down 'deal'.

Edited 21 January, 2019 by buctootim

[RedArmy]

Has anybody provided a list of these FACTS yet?

 

Waiting patiently.

[CB Fry]

Has anybody provided a list of these FACTS yet?

 

Waiting patiently.

The only relevant fact here is you are particularly odd.

 

There's rarely any singular, cold/hard facts in a rolling discourse like this. There is plenty more water under the bridge since June 2016 and the situation has developed significantly since then and all parties have learned a lot about what will happen next. In most cases, it is nothing like the scenarios that were presented before the vote. If you don't have any sense of that, at all, then well done.

 

If you want the entire thing distilled into "cold hard facts" you might need to wait until they publish a Horrible Histories book about it, maybe in around 2028.

 

So, for now, none of us can give you capital letter FACTS so congratulations you win the internet.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

https://www.ft.com/content/4849bf68-1b13-11e9-9e64-d150b3105d21

 

How the Brexit options would affect the economy

As the UK weighs up its future relationship with the EU, economists assess the choices.

The fortunes of Britain’s economy hinge on what sort of relationship with the EU the UK finally decides on — and the options range from no deal to no Brexit.

 

Following the defeat of Prime Minister Theresa May’s deal to leave the EU, City of London economists have published widely differing views on the probability of the possible outcomes. Yet there is clear agreement that the current deadlock is damaging the economy, and that the softest Brexit possible — or no Brexit at all — would best serve UK economic interests.*

 

“Ongoing uncertainty . . . could have a pernicious effect,” said George Buckley, at Nomura.*

 

 

Consensus Economics has compiled independent forecasts of the short term outlook based on the prime minister’s deal passing, no deal and remaining in the EU. The government’s economic analysis of different scenarios, alongside its white paper on immigration, contain the building blocks needed to give a good estimate of what officials think the longer-term impact of different options would be.*

 

No deal

If the UK leaves on March 29 with no deal, economists are not now predicting a recession because the EU is prepared to mitigate the effects temporarily. But UK output growth will slow sharply to just 0.9 per cent in 2019 and 2020, according to Consensus Economics.

 

The costs rise, however, as the UK adjusts to its new circumstances, with tariffs at the UK-EU border, significant non-tariff barriers on goods and new restrictions on trade in services.

 

According to the government’s white paper on migration, the inflow of migrants from the EU would fall 80 per cent; this imposes significant further costs, says the official impact assessment.

 

After 15 years, the long-term estimate is that the economy would be 9.1 per cent smaller than if the UK had remained in the EU, the government said.

 

Canada-style trade deal

This is the outcome sought by most Brexiters. It has proved impossible to negotiate because it clashes with Britain’s pledge to avoid infrastructure on the Irish border. Even if that changed, the economics of a free trade agreement are not that much better than that of no deal, according to the published assessments.

 

There is no specific short term forecast available. In the long term, a free trade agreement avoids tariffs and some non-tariff barriers. But many obstacles to trade remain, including the burdens of completing customs declarations and product checks to ensure that goods meet both EU and British regulations. Services’ access to the EU would be significantly weaker than now and migration much more restrictive.*

 

The total costs in the official analysis suggest the economy would be 6.3 per cent smaller by 2034 than if the UK had remained in the EU.*

 

A customs union with alignment on goods regulations

Britain was heading in this direction under Mrs May’s deal. If Britain aligned its product rules with the EU and joined a customs union, it would be able to keep an infrastructure-free border with Ireland and minimal new checks at the key Dover-Calais border. For goods, it would have a closer relationship with the EU than Switzerland, although it would lose free access to the EU services market.*

 

One downside is that Britain would not be able to strike meaningful free trade deals with other countries, although it might win regulatory gains in the service sector.*

 

 

It probably could still introduce its own, much more restrictive, immigration regime, which would impose economic costs. “It seems unlikely they [the current government] would use the extra sovereignty in a way that would boost growth,” said Andy Goodwin, deputy director at the consultancy Oxford Economics.*

 

Friction-free goods trade, however, would make this a much less costly outcome than a Canada-style agreement. Losing the ability to have an independent trade policy has minimal effect according to the government’s assessment.

 

The total costs in the official analysis suggest the economy would be 2.2 per cent smaller in 15 years than if the UK had remained in the EU.*

 

Remain in the EU single market and customs union

Under the Norway Plus model advocated by MPs such as Nick Boles, Stephen Kinnock and Nicky Morgan, Britain would seek to remain inside the economic institutions of the EU, while leaving its political apparatus.

 

The UK would gain no new freedoms and by being part of the EU’s economic institutions, the country would lose the ability to set its own migration and regulatory regimes, but the economic analysis suggests this is a price worth paying. There would be no economic cost either in the short or long run.*

 

Remain in the EU after a second referendum

Economists say the short-term economic outlook would be similar as under any of the negotiated outcomes described above. With transitional arrangements in place, the immediate uncertainty would subside and the differences would emerge over time. “This is all about kicking the can down the road,” said Daniel Vernazza, economist at UniCredit.

 

But some economists said a decision to hold a second referendum could, by contrast, depress economic activity in the short term. Kallum Pickering, economist at Berenberg, described it as the biggest risk to the outlook for this year, while John Wraith, a strategist at UBS, said any relief “would be offset by the drawing out of the intense uncertainty”.

 

However, if a new vote casts Brexit aside, economists inside and outside government think the outcomes would be the best available. Economists and officials think it would lead to more rapid growth in the next two years and avoid any longer-term hit to prosperity.