Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[OldNick]

http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2016/8/9/brexit-bulletin-what-the-rest-of-the-eu-wants interesting, and if we got away with that it could be not too bad.

[Guided Missile]

 

The Jan. 18, 1999, cover of TIME

[buctootim]

http://www.hl.co.uk/news/2016/8/9/brexit-bulletin-what-the-rest-of-the-eu-wants interesting, and if we got away with that it could be not too bad.

 

Interesting but its very anecdotal though. Talking to a random selection of "government officials" in different EU countries is not very reliable. A bit more meat on the bones here at the original source.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-09/brexit-bulletin-what-the-rest-of-the-eu-wants

[Verbal]

Bullsh*t. He got the job because he agreed to be nothing more than Osborne's puppet. Embarrassing. What other Bank governor would spread unfounded doom and gloom. Surprised Cameron didn't knight him for sucking his left testicle.

 

So now there are two unanswered questions. First the one you ignored:

 

Can you think of a single example of anyone successfully negotiating a deal while unable to even articulate what they want?

 

And the second, given your repeated and otherwise bizarre use of gay sex imagery in your last few posts:

 

Is this your way of coming out?

[Verbal]

Here's some interesting Shape of Things to Come news...

 

The Times today is reporting that a British Bill of Rights is dead in the water. So a Bill that was especially precious to the more rabid Brexiteers in the Tory party, and Theresa May herself, is just too complicated, too fraught, too difficult to disentangle from the existing framework of the European Convention on Human Rights (the latter ironically largely the work of a rather brilliant British Tory politician and Nuremberg prosecutor called David Maxwell Fyfe).

 

If you fail in the foothills...

[Guided Missile]

The Times today is reporting that a British Bill of Rights is dead in the water. So a Bill that was especially precious to the more rabid Brexiteers in the Tory party, and Theresa May herself, is just too complicated, too fraught, too difficult to disentangle from the existing framework of the European Convention on Human Rights (the latter ironically largely the work of a rather brilliant British Tory politician and Nuremberg prosecutor called David Maxwell Fyfe).

The European Convention on Human Rights has nothing at all to do with the EU, but everything to do with the Council of Europe. We signed up to it as founder members of the Council of Europe at the Treaty of London in 1949. The Council of Europe was originally an idea of Winston Churchill after the war.

So, to be clear, f*** all to do with the EU....

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

If I recall correctly a signifcant majority of people living in the North East voted 'Leave' in the EU referendum. Well it seems the consequencs of that decision may strike home in Sunderland sooner that some of them might have thought - if any real 'thought' went into their decision-making process that is:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37024707

[Verbal]

I'm surprised you knew that. The rest of us do, but your grasp on things seems so tenuous that for once you've outdone yourself.

 

But then you do rather let yourself down by completely missing the point. I'll let you try to figure it out.

 

Clock's ticking...

[OldNick]

The European Convention on Human Rights has nothing at all to do with the EU, but everything to do with the Council of Europe. We signed up to it as founder members of the Council of Europe at the Treaty of London in 1949. The Council of Europe was originally an idea of Winston Churchill after the war.

So, to be clear, f*** all to do with the EU....

GM, how has the commodity price inflation due to the pound falling affected you? I know that a roofing company told me this week that their lead is costing 10% more, not all will be down to that but th costs will be feeding through in a minute. Obviously our exports will be cheaper

[Lord Duckhunter]

Here's some interesting Shape of Things to Come news...

 

The Times today is reporting that a British Bill of Rights is dead in the water. So a Bill that was especially precious to the more rabid Brexiteers in the Tory party, and Theresa May herself, is just too complicated, too fraught, too difficult to disentangle from the existing framework of the European Convention on Human Rights (the latter ironically largely the work of a rather brilliant British Tory politician and Nuremberg prosecutor called David Maxwell Fyfe).

 

If you fail in the foothills...

 

Teresa May wanted to stay in the EU.

 

What is the point you're trying to make ? That members of the Tory party who voted Leave and members of the Tory party who voted remain , wanted to leave something that had nothing to do with the EU , but aren't doing so now?

 

I hope you've paid a £5 because that's a waste of a third of your posts today if you haven't .

[Guided Missile]

GM, how has the commodity price inflation due to the pound falling affected you? I know that a roofing company told me this week that their lead is costing 10% more, not all will be down to that but th costs will be feeding through in a minute. Obviously our exports will be cheaper

I buy in dollars and sell in pounds. This year the lower pound will cost me £200k in reduced profits.

 

Worth every penny....

[Verbal]

Teresa May wanted to stay in the EU.

 

What is the point you're trying to make ? That members of the Tory party who voted Leave and members of the Tory party who voted remain , wanted to leave something that had nothing to do with the EU , but aren't doing so now?

 

I hope you've paid a £5 because that's a waste of a third of your posts today if you haven't .

 

Jesus H Christ.

 

First, this a football forum we're contributing to, you great big dufus, not the Bayeux Tapestry. So why should I give a flying **** about how many posts I use?

 

Secondly, you're right - I underestimate the utter detachedness from reality of Brexiteers, who seem to think that leaving the EU is little more complicated than waving goodbye to the continent and getting into bed with the lovely Chinese, the Russians, etc. So to spell it out in words you might understand: if civil servants can't find a way around the ECHR to construct a British Bill of Rights, what hope do they have of wading through the infinitely more complex legal maze that's been created in our several daces in the EU? And all to be achieved by a civil service, by the way, that's 10% smaller than in 2010.

 

And that's assuming the three Brexiteers can ever muster themselves to articulate what it is they actually want by way of Brexit. They've been notable by their complete silence on the subject until now. You Brexit fans should be aiming your anger at those ill-informed sloths 'running' the FCO, the Min of Int Trade and the Dept for ExitEU, not at those simply pointing out some inconvenient realities about the scale of the task.

 

To keep up my drip feed of news from the Brexit front (purely a public service, you understand), here's the Northern Ireland response to Theresa May's visit there recently.

 

https://twitter.com/julianoneill/status/763402293182070786

 

Interesting, don't you think? Especially given that May has made clear that the mandate to leave the EU must include all four nations.

[aintforever]

Here's some interesting Shape of Things to Come news...

 

The Times today is reporting that a British Bill of Rights is dead in the water. So a Bill that was especially precious to the more rabid Brexiteers in the Tory party, and Theresa May herself, is just too complicated, too fraught, too difficult to disentangle from the existing framework of the European Convention on Human Rights (the latter ironically largely the work of a rather brilliant British Tory politician and Nuremberg prosecutor called David Maxwell Fyfe).

 

If you fail in the foothills...

 

Why do you keep banging on about Brexit supporters being Tory when all the Labour areas of the North also voted to leave?

 

The people voted Brexit because they were fed up with being ignored by all the main parties. Branded racist by Labour ******s in Westminster for even bringing up the subject of immigration. If The remain campaign actually listened to the people and offered some sort of solution to their concerns they may have actually won.

 

The swivel eyed UKIP loons didn't win this for Brexit, Labour voters did.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Why do you keep banging on about Brexit supporters being Tory when all the Labour areas of the North also voted to leave?

 

The people voted Brexit because they were fed up with being ignored by all the main parties. Branded racist by Labour ******s in Westminster for even bringing up the subject of immigration. If The remain campaign actually listened to the people and offered some sort of solution to their concerns they may have actually won.

 

The swivel eyed UKIP loons didn't win this for Brexit, Labour voters did.

 

Stop confusing him with facts

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Stop confusing him with facts

 

Stop confusing facts with opinion.

 

63% of Labour voters backed Remain: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-7-graphs-that-explain-how-brexit-won-eu-explained-a7101676.html

[shurlock]

Stop confusing facts with opinion.

 

63% of Labour voters backed Remain: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-7-graphs-that-explain-how-brexit-won-eu-explained-a7101676.html

 

:lol:

 

[Sour Mash]

Stop confusing facts with opinion.

 

63% of Labour voters backed Remain: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-result-7-graphs-that-explain-how-brexit-won-eu-explained-a7101676.html

You seem to struggle reading very basic English. He said "the Labour areas of the North also voted to leave?" He didn't mention Labour voters in London, Brighton, Bristol.

 

Do you ever get anything right?

[Wade Garrett]

So now there are two unanswered questions. First the one you ignored:

 

Can you think of a single example of anyone successfully negotiating a deal while unable to even articulate what they want?

 

And the second, given your repeated and otherwise bizarre use of gay sex imagery in your last few posts:

 

Is this your way of coming out?

 

In answer to your second question, no, I was merely illustrating the subservient relationship Carney had with Osborne and Cameron. Subconsciously though, maybe it is.

 

In response to your first question, to me personally, and probably to a fair percentage of Brexit voters, what I want is sovereignty, democracy and control of our borders (this doesn't mean an end to immigration, just more control. Wouldn't want to be labelled a racist).

[Lord Duckhunter]

You seem to struggle reading very basic English. He said "the Labour areas of the North also voted to leave?" He didn't mention Labour voters in London, Brighton, Bristol.

 

Do you ever get anything right?

 

Exactly . These remoaners are so bitter they're too quick to post . They need to calm down a bit and take a deep breath before posting .

[Johnny Bognor]

Exactly . These remoaners are so bitter they're too quick to post . They need to calm down a bit and take a deep breath before posting .

 

LOL

 

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You seem to struggle reading very basic English. He said "the Labour areas of the North also voted to leave?" He didn't mention Labour voters in London, Brighton, Bristol.

 

Do you ever get anything right?

 

You seem to be having some trouble comprehending that in a national REFERENDUM where you happen to live makes the square root of bugger-all difference as every vote counts the same. Therefore, it makes no more sense claiming that Labour voters in the north east "won" the vote anymore than Conservative voters in the south west did.

 

But it is always interesting to see the Klan viewpoint on various issues so please carry on anyway.

[Wade Garrett]

You seem to be having some trouble comprehending that in a national REFERENDUM where you happen to live makes the square root of bugger-all difference as every vote counts the same. Therefore, it makes no more sense claiming that Labour voters in the north east "won" the vote anymore than Conservative voters in the south west did.

 

But it is always interesting to see the Klan viewpoint on various issues so please carry on anyway.

 

You seem to be having some trouble comprehending that the most votes in a national REFERENDUM wins.

[OldNick]

Isnt it odd that now the vote has been made, the BBC are not concentrating their time on the Syrian refugees not coming in their boats into Europe.

They musyt have stopped coming now Brexit has happened

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You seem to be having some trouble comprehending that the most votes in a national REFERENDUM wins.

 

I do grasp the principle thanks.

[OldNick]

I buy in dollars and sell in pounds. This year the lower pound will cost me £200k in reduced profits.

 

Worth every penny....

I suspect you have under estimated. As the year goes on there will be local inflation that will also impact on your other costs, not just the dollar purchases.

 

Im glad you believe its worth it, Im not sure the majority who voted to leave really were prepared take a 200k+ hit. Sadly people who voted remain also wil have to take such medicine.

[Wes Tender]

Jesus H Christ.

 

First, this a football forum we're contributing to, you great big dufus, not the Bayeux Tapestry. So why should I give a flying **** about how many posts I use?

 

Secondly, you're right - I underestimate the utter detachedness from reality of Brexiteers, who seem to think that leaving the EU is little more complicated than waving goodbye to the continent and getting into bed with the lovely Chinese, the Russians, etc. So to spell it out in words you might understand: if civil servants can't find a way around the ECHR to construct a British Bill of Rights, what hope do they have of wading through the infinitely more complex legal maze that's been created in our several daces in the EU? And all to be achieved by a civil service, by the way, that's 10% smaller than in 2010.

 

And that's assuming the three Brexiteers can ever muster themselves to articulate what it is they actually want by way of Brexit. They've been notable by their complete silence on the subject until now. You Brexit fans should be aiming your anger at those ill-informed sloths 'running' the FCO, the Min of Int Trade and the Dept for ExitEU, not at those simply pointing out some inconvenient realities about the scale of the task.

 

To keep up my drip feed of news from the Brexit front (purely a public service, you understand), here's the Northern Ireland response to Theresa May's visit there recently.

 

https://twitter.com/julianoneill/status/763402293182070786

 

Interesting, don't you think? Especially given that May has made clear that the mandate to leave the EU must include all four nations.

 

The usual arrogant twaddle from the Remainians on here: anybody who voted to leave must be too thick to understand that extricating us from 40 years of EU bureaucracy will be a complicated and lengthy process. Most Brexiteers understand this and are content to wait for the process to unfold, happy that the eventual benefits of our departure are well worth a bit of short term uncertainty in the business and financial spheres.

 

Regarding your claim that Boris, Davis and Fox can't articulate what they actually want, had you actually bothered to listen to both sides of the Referendum debate, you would have heard them articulating their desires then. I'm sorry that they have not issued a daily bulletin to pacify the impatient resident Remainians on this football forum, but it still has not been long since the 23rd June and I suspect that they have been too busy buckling down to sounding out the potential trade deals that we can make around the World in order to strengthen our negotiating position with the EU.

 

If you wish to consider your drip feed (i.e. news items from a drip) contributions as a public service, then I suggest that in order to qualify as such, it ought to be balanced. I realise how difficult it would be for you to accept any news that throws a positive slant on our decision to leave the EU, but until you do, you little rants will just be taken as the ramblings of a bad loser. Furthermore, most of us who voted to leave, are perfectly capable of picking up on these daily news stories and analysing them ourselves, without the likes of you telling us what we should think. Sometimes though, there is some amusement value attached to it, like your faux pas on the European Convention of Human Rights and the wriggling you did to try and get yourself off the hook.

[Guided Missile]

I suspect you have under estimated. As the year goes on there will be local inflation that will also impact on your other costs, not just the dollar purchases.

 

Im glad you believe its worth it, Im not sure the majority who voted to leave really were prepared take a 200k+ hit. Sadly people who voted remain also wil have to take such medicine.

The "medicine" is that rather than buying our RM's from China in dollars next year, we will be manufacturing in the UK at a plant in the North of England. China has an artificial cost advantage in dollar terms as they have no real advantage in cost of goods. Their currency is worth what the Chinese government says it is. Labour is not an issue in chemical manufacturing so the only clear advantage China has over the UK is lower environmental and safety standards.

In 2017, we will be paying less in sterling terms for the raw material than this year and will be exporting the raw material in greater volumes to the EU due to the more realistic sterling/euro rate. Sterling has been overvalued for a while.

 

This approach is, I hope, what defines the British, rather than the London centric europhiles, who are terrified about the price of their lattés going up when the cheap, exploited labour returns to Eastern Europe. Whatever will they do with Tarquin now his underpaid nanny goes back as well? Very frightening....

[Saint86]

Why do you keep banging on about Brexit supporters being Tory when all the Labour areas of the North also voted to leave?

 

The people voted Brexit because they were fed up with being ignored by all the main parties. Branded racist by Labour ******s in Westminster for even bringing up the subject of immigration. If The remain campaign actually listened to the people and offered some sort of solution to their concerns they may have actually won.

 

The swivel eyed UKIP loons didn't win this for Brexit, Labour voters did.

 

Why do remainers keep insulting the majority of the country. that is what I can't grasp tbh. Really need to move on and stop creating a divisive and bad tempered air. No one likes bad losers and now everyone needs to pull together.

[Verbal]

Why do you keep banging on about Brexit supporters being Tory when all the Labour areas of the North also voted to leave?

 

The people voted Brexit because they were fed up with being ignored by all the main parties. Branded racist by Labour ******s in Westminster for even bringing up the subject of immigration. If The remain campaign actually listened to the people and offered some sort of solution to their concerns they may have actually won.

 

The swivel eyed UKIP loons didn't win this for Brexit, Labour voters did.

 

At no point have I said that people who voted for Brexit were just Tories. I have not entered into a discussion about the various factions voting for Brexit. I have no idea where you got that idea, and can only assume you post in a state of hysteria which blocks out rational thought.

 

If you followed politics at all you'd know that a British Bill of Rights was in the last Tory manifesto. The Bill had support (as I stated) from May, but also from Cameron in the 2010 election. But it's been a banner policy change supported most strongly by Brexiteers in the Tory hierarchy. Again, for the hard of thinking, the point I was making was that if a relatively small change designed to unpick our relationship with international bodies proves beyond the capacity of the civil service and politicians, how the hell are they going to manage unpicking a relationship with the EU - a project at least as epic in administrative terms as rearmament in the 1930s?

 

Got it now? Or do you want to invent another thing I'm "banging on about" to suit your ignorant fantasies?

[ashnats]

Why do remainers keep insulting the majority of the country. that is what I can't grasp tbh. Really need to move on and stop creating a divisive and bad tempered air. No one likes bad losers and now everyone needs to pull together.

 

A majority can be wrong, no reason why a majority should be exempt from insult. A majority of Americans believe the universe was created by a white bearded old man who watches our every move from another dimension and judges us when we die. the majority of 5 year olds in the uk think Santa is real. The majority of british voters thought they would get more control of the UKs position in europe if they voted out. All of these are examples of bizarre viewpoints that are somewhat distanced from reality...

[Guided Missile]

A majority can be wrong...

Not in a democracy. You're thinking of North Korea.

[moonraker]

A majority can be wrong, no reason why a majority should be exempt from insult. A majority of Americans believe the universe was created by a white bearded old man who watches our every move from another dimension and judges us when we die. the majority of 5 year olds in the uk think Santa is real. The majority of british voters thought they would get more control of the UKs position in europe if they voted out. All of these are examples of bizarre viewpoints that are somewhat distanced from reality...

 

Also, being pedantic, the majority did not vote for Brexit, the majority of those eligible to vote who voted did vote Brexit but this is only 38% of the electorate, so not a majority. It has reasonably been argued that those who did not vote don’t care, but this does not alter the fact that only 38% voted for change whilst 62% either did not or abstained. What I find disappointing is the low turn out amongst the young, only 35% of 18 – 25 year olds voted and there are over 3,800,000 of them and of those that did vote voted over 75% in favour of remain. It was a real failure of the remain campaign to fail in mobilising the section of he electorate that was most likely to vote for them.

Edited 11 August, 2016 by moonraker

[Special K]

Why do remainers keep insulting the majority of the country. that is what I can't grasp tbh. Really need to move on and stop creating a divisive and bad tempered air. No one likes bad losers and now everyone needs to pull together.

 

From the yawn-athon stock answer of "Get over it!" to the bizarrely triumphalist and equally juvenile "We won, you didn't!" mantra of the UKIPpers, the creation of any "divisive and bad tempered air" is primarily down to gob****e Brexiters who seem to think that the referendum was a Win / Lose scenario and if you "lost" (voted Remain), you need to shut the **** up, forever and a day.

 

I'm not referring to you, Saint 86, but more generally, but imho I don't want to pull together with someone who believes an economic policy should be based upon the phrase "It Will Be Alright". I don't want to pull together with someone who believes they voted to leave the EU because "It would stop the muslims coming in". I don't want to pull together with someone who believes the promotion of lies over facts is a good idea. And I don't want to pull together with someone whose responses to a post - brexit UK range from the bizarre "Well, World War Three didn't happen did it?, huh!" to the "stop moaning and get on with it" slogan from the School of Head Burying ********.

[Sour Mash]

the creation of any "divisive and bad tempered air" is primarily down to gob****e Brexiters .......

 

 

.... but imho I don't want to pull together with someone who believes an economic policy should be based upon the phrase "It Will Be Alright". I don't want to pull together with someone who believes they voted to leave the EU because "It would stop the muslims coming in". I don't want to pull together with someone who believes the promotion of lies over facts is a good idea. And I don't want to pull together with someone whose responses to a post - brexit UK range from the bizarre "Well, World War Three didn't happen did it?, huh!" to the "stop moaning and get on with it" slogan from the School of Head Burying ********.

Good to see your views are in no way divisive

[Sour Mash]

A majority can be wrong, no reason why a majority should be exempt from insult. A majority of Americans believe the universe was created by a white bearded old man who watches our every move from another dimension and judges us when we die. the majority of 5 year olds in the uk think Santa is real. The majority of british voters thought they would get more control of the UKs position in europe if they voted out. All of these are examples of bizarre viewpoints that are somewhat distanced from reality...

If Remainers had a better understanding of the British people and responded accordingly, the British electorate might not have voted to leave your precious political union. Think on that.

[Sour Mash]

You seem to be having some trouble comprehending that in a national REFERENDUM where you happen to live makes the square root of bugger-all difference as every vote counts the same. Therefore, it makes no more sense claiming that Labour voters in the north east "won" the vote anymore than Conservative voters in the south west did.

 

But it is always interesting to see the Klan viewpoint on various issues so please carry on anyway.

Sorry for showing you up yet again, it is getting unfair now

[Special K]

Good to see your views are in no way divisive

 

Don't be such a tart. There was and will continue to be division. I wasn't the one claiming that it's as a result of being a "bad loser".

[Johnny Bognor]

A majority can be wrong, no reason why a majority should be exempt from insult. A majority of Americans believe the universe was created by a white bearded old man who watches our every move from another dimension and judges us when we die. the majority of 5 year olds in the uk think Santa is real. The majority of british voters thought they would get more control of the UKs position in europe if they voted out. All of these are examples of bizarre viewpoints that are somewhat distanced from reality...

 

Yes a majority can be wrong. Just look at the french after they rejected what became the lisbon treaty. The EU changed the words so it no longer required a referendum and it got pushed through because the French people were wrong and the EU knows best...

 

Then look at the Irish who rejected it. They were clearly wrong too. So with a few word changes and millions spent on persuading the clearly wrong irish people, the Lisbon treaty was born.

 

So yes, I agree. The majority of people who vote against the EU are wrong. So they will do everything in their power to go against the will of the people and even 'punish' them. Just look at the arrogance of the EU leaders stating that the UK should be punished, just because the majority of people in the UK had a view that was at odds with theirs.

 

Punished??? Punished?? That alone is reason enough to want to leave.

Edited 11 August, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Sour Mash]

Don't be such a tart. There was and will continue to be division. I wasn't the one claiming that it's as a result of being a "bad loser".

You're clearly far more divisive than any Brexiteer I've seen. Glad you're taking it all so well anyway.

[benjii]

At no point have I said that people who voted for Brexit were just Tories. I have not entered into a discussion about the various factions voting for Brexit. I have no idea where you got that idea, and can only assume you post in a state of hysteria which blocks out rational thought.

 

If you followed politics at all you'd know that a British Bill of Rights was in the last Tory manifesto. The Bill had support (as I stated) from May, but also from Cameron in the 2010 election. But it's been a banner policy change supported most strongly by Brexiteers in the Tory hierarchy. Again, for the hard of thinking, the point I was making was that if a relatively small change designed to unpick our relationship with international bodies proves beyond the capacity of the civil service and politicians, how the hell are they going to manage unpicking a relationship with the EU - a project at least as epic in administrative terms as rearmament in the 1930s?

 

Got it now? Or do you want to invent another thing I'm "banging on about" to suit your ignorant fantasies?

 

That's a pretty fatuous argument though that can be used to say that nothing should ever be done by government more complicated than making a cup of tea. There are numerous examples of civil servants failing miserably to negotiate and manage basic outsourcing or procurement contracts. Following your logic we should therefore scale government back to only the most basic and trivial tasks because you can find an example of something difficult being messed up.

 

Leaving the EU is obviously going to be horrifically complicated. I don't think anyone thinks otherwise.

[Jonnyboy]

That's a pretty fatuous argument though that can be used to say that nothing should ever be done by government more complicated than making a cup of tea. There are numerous examples of civil servants failing miserably to negotiate and manage basic outsourcing or procurement contracts. Following your logic we should therefore scale government back to only the most basic and trivial tasks because you can find an example of something difficult being messed up.

 

Leaving the EU is obviously going to be horrifically complicated. I don't think anyone thinks otherwise.

 

And it's going to cost a hell of a lot. When the main argument for leaving was to save money.

[Wes Tender]

And it's going to cost a hell of a lot. When the main argument for leaving was to save money.

 

No it wasn't. The main arguments for Brexit were immigration and control of our borders, regaining lost sovereignty and restoring the supremacy of our legal system. It was mainly your lot rabbiting on about the financial aspects.

[Whitey Grandad]

No, I was talking percentages.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11700443/The-EUs-dwindling-importance-to-UK-trade-in-three-charts.html

 

Am I really to believe that during a campaign lasting many weeks, where the arguments for and against our membership of the EU were debated nightly, you appear not to have heard any of the arguments for leaving? Or did you just put your fingers in your ears or turn the volume down so as not to hear any criticism of your beloved EU?

No, you seem to have misunderstood my point. The share of our exports to the EU may be declining as a percentage of the overall figure but the actual amount is still increasing. This does not make exports to the EU of diminishing importance it actually makes them more important than they were before.

 

And you still haven't defined any benefits from leaving the EU. There was a lot of empty rhetoric from the Brexiteers but that is all that it was. I am asking you personally what actual advantages you think there will be from our new situation. I have asked several leavers the same question and I have yet to receive even one example.

 

Your economic strategy seems to exist of scrapping our existing trade deal with the largest trading bloc in the world right on our doorstep and then immediately trying to replace it with an inferior one whilst at the same time championing new deals with unspecified emerging economies in other parts of the world. Can you not see the economic lunacy in this approach?

[Whitey Grandad]

No it wasn't. The main arguments for Brexit were immigration and control of our borders, regaining lost sovereignty and restoring the supremacy of our legal system. It was mainly your lot rabbiting on about the financial aspects.

Well none of that's going to happen so it wot be worth the cost, which will be significant.

 

Anyway, if it wasn't about money why was that figure of £350m a week plastered all over the side of that bus in big letters?

Edited 11 August, 2016 by Whitey Grandad

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Sorry for showing you up yet again, it is getting unfair now

 

You seem confused again - but don't feel too bad because this is to be expected from someone of your intellect.

[Wes Tender]

No, you seem to have misunderstood my point. The share of our exports to the EU may be declining as a percentage of the overall figure but the actual amount is still increasing. This does not make exports to the EU of diminishing importance it actually makes them more important than they were before.

 

And you still haven't defined any benefits from leaving the EU. There was a lot of empty rhetoric from the Brexiteers but that is all that it was. I am asking you personally what actual advantages you think there will be from our new situation. I have asked several leavers the same question and I have yet to receive even one example.

 

Your economic strategy seems to exist of scrapping our existing trade deal with the largest trading bloc in the world right on our doorstep and then immediately trying to replace it with an inferior one whilst at the same time championing new deals with unspecified emerging economies in other parts of the world. Can you not see the economic lunacy in this approach?

 

You don't absorb much from reading posts, do you, and you are wide of the mark when it comes to second guessing what I and other Brexiteers want, now that we have voted to leave the EU. Of course, it is debatable as to whether a renegotiated trade deal with the EU will be inferior to the current one. That deal ties us into totally uncontrolled free mass immigration from any other member state. The EU will attempt to insist that if we wish to remain inside the single market, free movement of peoples must continue. We will insist that it cannot. So the negotiations will centre on finding a solution whereby if we cannot remain inside the single market, we will still have access to the single market, as do many other Countries who trade with the EU. It is completely over the top hyperbole to conclude that fixing such a deal and at the same time negotiating several other bilateral deals with the fastest developing economies of the World constitutes economic lunacy, so I have to question your judgement for even thinking that.

 

The benefits of leaving have been explained and debated ad nauseum, but if you are going to dismiss them as empty rhetoric, then I really can't be arsed to restate them. I have certainly given my reasons many times in the referendum debate, so why don't you read back a bit?

 

Regarding your additional question on whether the Brexit campaign was all about money or not, that is not a conclusion that you can reach by just citing in isolation something written on the side of the campaign bus, whilst simultaneously ignoring the main thrust of the campaign which you glibly choose to dismiss without any concrete reasons for why they won't happen. Basing your arguments on this shaky premise seems a bit weak, so why don't you tell us why none of those things mentioned will not happen?

[Wes Tender]

Anyway, if it wasn't about money why was that figure of £350m a week plastered all over the side of that bus in big letters?

 

Big letters were required so that they could be read from a greater distance.

[scotty]

Has it occurred to anyone but me that the Remain campaign was more flaccid than a pensioner whose viagra has run out? And that although the former and current prime ministers both campaigned in favour of staying, there was an immediate statement that regardless of the narrow vote, leave means leave? I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I do think there's a hell of a lot more to this than meets the eye.

[moonraker]

No it wasn't. The main arguments for Brexit were immigration and control of our borders, regaining lost sovereignty and restoring the supremacy of our legal system. It was mainly your lot rabbiting on about the financial aspects.

 

Now you have clarified that there was no economic argument for leaving the EU(apart from £350 m for the NHS), let’s take your stated reasons for leaving and see where we are:

a. Immigration – no change and unlikely to change if we want to retain access to the single market – likely final outcome Brexit Failure.

b. Control of our Borders - we have this we just don’t do it very well due to lack of Government funding. When linked to point a, above likely final outcome Brexit Failure.

c. Regaining Sovereignty – this is a much misused and abused term, what you Brexiters seem to aspire to is Westphalian Sovereignty. Whilst leaving the EU will remove one external body from direct dominion over some aspects of UK Legislation and Regulation there are many more international bodies the membership of which has not been questioned by Brexiters and yet they have direct dominion over areas of our Legislation and Regulation – likely final outcome Brexit Failure.

d. Legal System – The recent u-turn on a UK Bill of Rights has amply demonstrated that this is not easy. If we wish to remain a major economy and nation with global influence we have to accept a whole range of external jurisdictions that are completely separate to the EU - – likely final outcome Brexit Failure.

So what is it that Brexit will actually achieve, apart from uncertainty, economic turmoil, distraction for getting on with the things that really matter.

Edited 12 August, 2016 by moonraker

[Whitey Grandad]

Big letters were required so that they could be read from a greater distance.

 

Bigger letters = bigger lie.

 

As someone famous once said:

 

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it."

 

Or a mate of his:

 

"...in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily;"