Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Bognanor's conclusion in that article is:

 

"Today, similarly, our exit from the EU depends upon the continuing consent of the people. The notion of finality is quite alien to the spirit of democratic politics. For it must always remain open for a sovereign people to reassess its verdict."

 

Which I presume means you'll now support a second referendum. Or did you not read that bit - you know, the actual point of the article?

 

As "It is written by one of the most preeminent authorities on British Constitutional history, Vernon Bogdanor" I would presume he does, as well as admitting that his interpretation of the original article was flawed...

[badgerx16]

If NI had voted leave, you could have a point, but they didn’t. So the DUP are obstructing the will of the NI people.

 

As for not being a sovereign state, why don’t you tell the Queen that? Or explain to me why I’ve got Sterling ten and twenty pound notes in my wallet and not Euros? Or why the self assessment tax form I filled out was for HMRC. That is HMRC of he Majesty’s Revenue & Customs and her Majesty’s government, UK. See the commonality here?

 

I hate to tell you this, but the Tory Party is literally dying in terms of its membership. Like Labour, it has been propped up by an influx of single issue extremists but history shows these people never build or sustain anything. So the main parties will go the way of the Lib Dem’s anyway. The biggest short term danger you have is that no deal pushes younger voters - and I mean 18-22 here - into the arms of Corbyn. I thought him being PM was impossible but the post Brexit UK you want and the leave voters in Sunderland, Barnsley, S Wales, cannot be reconciled. They want increased public spending and renationalisation, you want Singapore super light. So they aren’t going to like your post Brexit ideas and the miners strike showed those areas won’t take it lying down.

 

The Uk is leaving - we all know that. It’s on what terms and what follows. I make no apologies for saying that I think May was appalling at the Home Office and set the Windrush scandal going, Boris is a useless oaf, Grayling is an example of why Brexiteers should never be allowed to be ministers. Pellegrino or Branfoot would be better as Transport Sec. Corbyn, Abbott, McDonnell all make me equally sick. Someone like Philip Hammond or Jo Johnston are my sort of politicians and the sort of people you can work with and live under. Nationalism and xenophobia don’t put bread on the table and make the world a s hit place. It’s bad enough with the c nuts in charge of the US and Brazil.

 

 

‘

[badgerx16]

As "It is written by one of the most preeminent authorities on British Constitutional history, Vernon Bogdanor" I would presume he does, as well as admitting that his interpretation of the original article was flawed...

It is clearly biased remoaner tripe, written by a whinging 'liberal'.

[CB Fry]

Wes has crashed out yet again.

[trousers]

Bognanor's conclusion in that article is:

 

"Today, similarly, our exit from the EU depends upon the continuing consent of the people. The notion of finality is quite alien to the spirit of democratic politics. For it must always remain open for a sovereign people to reassess its verdict."

 

Which I presume means you'll now support a second referendum. Or did you not read that bit - you know, the actual point of the article?

 

I guess a Brexiteer might reply to this with: "So, when 'remain' wins the next referendum, will Remainers come back on here to quote Bognanor's conclusion again?"?

Edited 5 January, 2019 by trousers

[Wes Tender]

Bognanor's conclusion in that article is:

 

"Today, similarly, our exit from the EU depends upon the continuing consent of the people. The notion of finality is quite alien to the spirit of democratic politics. For it must always remain open for a sovereign people to reassess its verdict."

 

Which I presume means you'll now support a second referendum. Or did you not read that bit - you know, the actual point of the article?

 

I accept that there are many who are anti-democratic and want a losers' referendum because they think that the plebs got it wrong the first time. But as he says in his reasoned analysis, there are numerous problems associated with a further referendum, what the choices should be and the timescale required to hold one. I have already made my position crystal clear, that it is a complete farce to have a third referendum before we have enacted the second one.

 

But if you're prepared to accept his authority on this, then presumably you also accept his premise that the people are sovereign on matters like this, not Parliament, you know, the actual point of his previous article.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I guess a Brexiteer might reply to this with: "So, when 'remain' wins the next referendum, will Remainers come back on here to quote Bognanor's conclusion again?"?

 

I guess it depends if the continuing consent of the majority of people has changed.

[Wes Tender]

If NI had voted leave, you could have a point, but they didn’t. So the DUP are obstructing the will of the NI people.

 

As for not being a sovereign state, why don’t you tell the Queen that? Or explain to me why I’ve got Sterling ten and twenty pound notes in my wallet and not Euros? Or why the self assessment tax form I filled out was for HMRC. That is HMRC of he Majesty’s Revenue & Customs and her Majesty’s government, UK. See the commonality here?

 

I hate to tell you this, but the Tory Party is literally dying in terms of its membership. Like Labour, it has been propped up by an influx of single issue extremists but history shows these people never build or sustain anything. So the main parties will go the way of the Lib Dem’s anyway. The biggest short term danger you have is that no deal pushes younger voters - and I mean 18-22 here - into the arms of Corbyn. I thought him being PM was impossible but the post Brexit UK you want and the leave voters in Sunderland, Barnsley, S Wales, cannot be reconciled. They want increased public spending and renationalisation, you want Singapore super light. So they aren’t going to like your post Brexit ideas and the miners strike showed those areas won’t take it lying down.

 

The Uk is leaving - we all know that. It’s on what terms and what follows. I make no apologies for saying that I think May was appalling at the Home Office and set the Windrush scandal going, Boris is a useless oaf, Grayling is an example of why Brexiteers should never be allowed to be ministers. Pellegrino or Branfoot would be better as Transport Sec. Corbyn, Abbott, McDonnell all make me equally sick. Someone like Philip Hammond or Jo Johnston are my sort of politicians and the sort of people you can work with and live under. Nationalism and xenophobia don’t put bread on the table and make the world a s hit place. It’s bad enough with the c nuts in charge of the US and Brazil.

 

‘

 

You've widened the scope rather substantially from my two line post, haven't you? And when talking about sovereignty, you conveniently missed the word independent in front of it. We might have a monarchy, our own currency, government and revenue authority. But then if all in the garden of sovereignty was rosy, there would be no need for a vote to leave the EU to regain control of our money, our borders and our laws, would there? See the commonality of those things?

 

As a member of the Conservative Party, I have no need of patronising advice on the state of the party. The membership is substantially in favour of Brexit, but very much against May's "deal". Over 50% of the party want a new leader, so she is almost certainly toast if her deal is rejected in the Commons, as it will be.

 

It is a bit previous to be discussing the future political landscape at this stage, as it isn't clear whether there will be a losers' rerun of the referendum, or an election before the legislated 5 year period expires. Regarding your reference to the miners strike, the political landscape has changed quite a bit since then, but they are much the same areas that voted leave in the highest numbers, and they will be the ones where there will be consdierable civil unrest if Brexit doesn't happen.

 

As for your assessment of the state of the political parties, I don't disagree. May is the worst Tory PM ever, presiding over the worst cabinet, chosen by her. Also Labour's front bench is a joke and the Lib Dems are totally insignificant.

[Highfield Saint]

No, not some Messiah, but the rebirth of the UK as an independent nation once again, free to control its own destiny perhaps. As we will be freed from Brussels, it could be fitting to have Belgian chocolate behind each daily door.

 

Next step..."but the rebirth of Scotland as an independent nation once again, free to control its own destiny perhaps. As it will be freed from Westminster, it could be fitting to have Cadburys chocolate behind each daily door"?

[shurlock]

Next step..."but the rebirth of Scotland as an independent nation once again, free to control its own destiny perhaps. As it will be freed from Westminster, it could be fitting to have Cadburys chocolate behind each daily door"?

 

If Brexit goes ahead in the form that jihadists like Les wish, happy to wager my life savings that Scotland will gain independence in our lifetime.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I guess a Brexiteer might reply to this with: "So, when 'remain' wins the next referendum, will Remainers come back on here to quote Bognanor's conclusion again?"?

 

Everybody thinks that if Remain win the losers vote that they’ll be trouble on the street and real aggro. I had an interesting conversation with a Remain supporting journo last night, who claimed the real danger in his eyes was if Leave win again. Not because of the obvious reason (that he doesn’t want to leave the EU), but because of the fallout in the aftermath of another leave vote. Leave voting Tory members and MPs will not trust another reformed remainer to deliver Brexit, so we will end up with a real leaver. Hammond, Rudd and other wets will be dumped from the cabinet, replaced by hard line pure Brexiters. Even Gove will be tainted by campaigning for May’s turd. The right will control the party as much as Corbyn controls labour. We’ll be heading for Singapore Brexit because the opposition to it will have been discredited by losing their people’s vote. They can hardly start up with “the people didn’t vote for this again”, or trying to use parliament to block it again. Two wins for leave and it will be the hardest of hard Brexit followed by the rightest of right wing governments. I must admit it appeals to me, but maybe the sopping wet remoaners should be careful what they wish for. If you don’t think a right wing government can win an election, just look at who they’ll be up against. They may get an 8 year run to change The UK beyond recognition.

 

 

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[Cabbage_Face]

If Brexit goes ahead in the form that jihadists like Les wish, happy to wager my life savings that Scotland will gain independence in our lifetime.

 

I think they will get Independence either way in our lifetime. Why they are so determined to do this is beyond me, bit like us leaving the EU. Stupidity.

[trousers]

I think they will get Independence either way in our lifetime. Why they are so determined to do this is beyond me, bit like us leaving the EU. Stupidity.

If the Scots are "so determined" to leave the UK, why did only a quarter of the Scottish electorate vote for the SNP in the 2016 Scottish Parliament election?

[hypochondriac]

If the Scots are "so determined" to leave the UK, why did only a quarter of the Scottish electorate vote for the SNP in the 2016 Scottish Parliament election?

Probably because lots of Scots want independence but despise the snp.

[Wes Tender]

Next step..."but the rebirth of Scotland as an independent nation once again, free to control its own destiny perhaps. As it will be freed from Westminster, it could be fitting to have Cadburys chocolate behind each daily door"?

 

Why would they wish to have chocolate owned by an American brand behind the doors?

[buctootim]

The right will control the party as much as Corbyn controls labour. We’ll be heading for Singapore Brexit because the opposition to it will have been discredited by losing their people’s vote.

 

Aah Singapore. The most recent Brexiteer fantasy du jour.

 

"Multilateral cooperation has now become “more urgent than ever” for the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), said Singapore’s Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong on Tuesday (Nov 13). For one, the international order is at a turning point, with the existing free, open and rules-based multilateral system coming under stress, said Mr Lee.

 

“Countries, including major powers, are resorting to unilateral actions and bilateral deals, and even explicitly repudiating multilateral approaches and institutions. It is unclear if the world will settle into new rules and norms of international engagement, or whether the international order will break up into rival blocs.” These strategic trends of big power competition and shifts against multilateralism are pulling ASEAN member states in different directions, said Mr Lee. Nevertheless, ASEAN has shown that it is able to work together and find common ground. This boils down to the conviction that “ASEAN is greater than the sum of its parts”.

 

“By coming together in one collective voice, instead of going our separate ways as ten disparate countries, ASEAN members have strengthened our standing in the world,” he said, Apart from a new strategic landscape, there are other challenges facing ASEAN. These include disruptions that come with digital technology, as well as looming non-traditional and transnational threats such as terrorism and climate change, said Mr Lee. All these mean that multilateral cooperation is now more urgent than ever, stressed Mr Lee. “These common challenges are complex and unprecedented. No single solution applies to all of us or all of these problems, yet no country can deal with them alone. We need to pool our ideas and resources to tackle these issues together.”

 

ASEAN member countries have redoubled integration efforts over the past year. This includes the “substantial progress” made towards completing negotiations on the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, and the building of an ASEAN Smart Cities Network that will connect people and economies seamlessly.

Edited 5 January, 2019 by buctootim

[Lord Duckhunter]

Aah Singapore. The most recent Brexiteer fantasy du jour.

 

 

His opinion was its where we’re heading IF Leave win the referendum rerun. That’s why, despite being a remoaner he doesn’t want a losers vote.

 

 

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[shurlock]

Everybody thinks that if Remain win the losers vote that they’ll be trouble on the street and real aggro. I had an interesting conversation with a Remain supporting journo last night, who claimed the real danger in his eyes was if Leave win again. Not because of the obvious reason (that he doesn’t want to leave the EU), but because of the fallout in the aftermath of another leave vote. Leave voting Tory members and MPs will not trust another reformed remainer to deliver Brexit, so we will end up with a real leaver. Hammond, Rudd and other wets will be dumped from the cabinet, replaced by hard line pure Brexiters. Even Gove will be tainted by campaigning for May’s turd. The right will control the party as much as Corbyn controls labour. We’ll be heading for Singapore Brexit because the opposition to it will have been discredited by losing their people’s vote. They can hardly start up with “the people didn’t vote for this again”, or trying to use parliament to block it again. Two wins for leave and it will be the hardest of hard Brexit followed by the rightest of right wing governments. I must admit it appeals to me, but maybe the sopping wet remoaners should be careful what they wish for. If you don’t think a right wing government can win an election, just look at who they’ll be up against. They may get an 8 year run to change The UK beyond recognition.

 

 

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Unlikely. If the headbangers in the Conservative party who have nothing economically or philosophically in common with the Labour Brexit vote in the north think winning a second referendum will give them license to indulge their failed libertarian fantasies, they’ll be signing their own electoral death warrant. That alone should check any excesses.

Edited 5 January, 2019 by shurlock

[whelk]

Did I hear correctly that some Brexit protesters blocked a Greggs in Manchester outraged at selling a vegan sausage roll. Might be bs but who da snowflakes?

[badgerx16]

Did I hear correctly that some Brexit protesters blocked a Greggs in Manchester outraged at selling a vegan sausage roll. Might be bs but who da snowflakes?

About 30 yellow vested EDL / Tommy Robinson supporters, shouting pro-Brexit slogans, were 'corralled' by GMP outside Greggs on Mosley Street.

[Weston Super Saint]

Did I hear correctly that some Brexit protesters blocked a Greggs in Manchester outraged at selling a vegan sausage roll. Might be bs but who da snowflakes?

 

EDL I believe...

 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/were-yellow-vests-protesting-against-15634441

 

Thought those morons had disappeared.

[badgerx16]

Strange how the EDL are nicking ideas from the French.

[aintforever]

What the **** has vegan sausage rolls got to do with Brexit or the EDL? Bonkers.

[Winnersaint]

The right will control the party as much as Corbyn controls labour. We’ll be heading for Singapore Brexit because the opposition to it will have been discredited by losing their people’s vote. They can hardly start up with “the people didn’t vote for this again”, or trying to use parliament to block it again. Two wins for leave and it will be the hardest of hard Brexit followed by the rightest of right wing governments. I must admit it appeals to me, but maybe the sopping wet remoaners should be careful what they wish for. If you don’t think a right wing government can win an election, just look at who they’ll be up against. They may get an 8 year run to change The UK beyond recognition.

 

 

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This view has been around for a while. It's not a gimme that People's Vote will be successful. Be interested to know in terms of likely possible policies how a hard right government would be an attractive proposition for anyone other than the self-interested.

[Lord Duckhunter]

What the **** has vegan sausage rolls got to do with Brexit or the EDL? Bonkers.

 

Fake news, read the above link.

 

“ it appears that the protesters were just being temporarily held outside Greggs as they tried to march from St Peter's Square up to Piccadilly Gardens”

 

****ing hell, you remoaners believe any old pony.

 

 

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[Unbelievable Jeff]

EDL I believe...

 

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/were-yellow-vests-protesting-against-15634441

 

Thought those morons had disappeared.

 

It seems like we have quite a few members on here TBH.

[badgerx16]

Fake news, read the above link.

 

“ it appears that the protesters were just being temporarily held outside Greggs as they tried to march from St Peter's Square up to Piccadilly Gardens”

 

****ing hell, you remoaners believe any old pony.

Sarcasm, satire, and irony all pass you by.

[Nolan]

Aah Singapore. The most recent Brexiteer fantasy du jour.

 

"Multilateral cooperation has now become “more urgent than ever” for the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), said Singapore’s Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong on Tuesday (Nov 13). For one, the international order is at a turning point, with the existing free, open and rules-based multilateral system coming under stress, said Mr Lee.

 

“Countries, including major powers, are resorting to unilateral actions and bilateral deals, and even explicitly repudiating multilateral approaches and institutions. It is unclear if the world will settle into new rules and norms of international engagement, or whether the international order will break up into rival blocs.” These strategic trends of big power competition and shifts against multilateralism are pulling ASEAN member states in different directions, said Mr Lee. Nevertheless, ASEAN has shown that it is able to work together and find common ground. This boils down to the conviction that “ASEAN is greater than the sum of its parts”.

 

“By coming together in one collective voice, instead of going our separate ways as ten disparate countries, ASEAN members have strengthened our standing in the world,” he said, Apart from a new strategic landscape, there are other challenges facing ASEAN. These include disruptions that come with digital technology, as well as looming non-traditional and transnational threats such as terrorism and climate change, said Mr Lee. All these mean that multilateral cooperation is now more urgent than ever, stressed Mr Lee. “These common challenges are complex and unprecedented. No single solution applies to all of us or all of these problems, yet no country can deal with them alone. We need to pool our ideas and resources to tackle these issues together.”

 

ASEAN member countries have redoubled integration efforts over the past year. This includes the “substantial progress” made towards completing negotiations on the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, and the building of an ASEAN Smart Cities Network that will connect people and economies seamlessly.

Not really comparable to the current EU.

 

Don't see any stories of USEAN trying to impose and Collect taxes from member countries.

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/eu-commission-pushes-ahead-with-plan-to-end-unanimity-on-tax-1.3746080?mode=amp

[buctootim]

Not really comparable to the current EU.

 

Don't see any stories of USEAN trying to impose and Collect taxes from member countries.

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/eu-commission-pushes-ahead-with-plan-to-end-unanimity-on-tax-1.3746080?mode=amp

 

Two things.

1. As usual you have totally failed to understand the story you posted. It’s not about the EU raising taxes it’s about stopping the incentive to base erode and profit shifting from one tax regime to another - allowing companies to avoid tax - and thereby forcing more tax onto individuals

2. You should read up on the ASEAN Development Fund and the ASEAN Infrastructure Fund.

 

It’s not where ASEAN is now which is important as they are 25 years behind the EU, it’s the direction of travel, unifying into a bloc.

Edited 5 January, 2019 by buctootim

[Verbal]

I accept that there are many who are anti-democratic and want a losers' referendum because they think that the plebs got it wrong the first time. But as he says in his reasoned analysis, there are numerous problems associated with a further referendum, what the choices should be and the timescale required to hold one. I have already made my position crystal clear, that it is a complete farce to have a third referendum before we have enacted the second one.

 

But if you're prepared to accept his authority on this, then presumably you also accept his premise that the people are sovereign on matters like this, not Parliament, you know, the actual point of his previous article.

 

I didn't ask whether you could throw a hissy fit. We know the answer to that. I asked whether you agreed with Bogdanor's core point and conclusion.

 

To say that 'there are many who are anti-democratic and want a losers' referendum' is to say the exact opposite of Bogdanor's point - yet you produced his article as if it gave your 'position' a ringing endorsement.

 

Once again, here's Bogdanor's conclusion:

 

"Today, similarly, our exit from the EU depends upon the continuing consent of the people. The notion of finality is quite alien to the spirit of democratic politics. For it must always remain open for a sovereign people to reassess its verdict."

 

Do you, or do you not, agree that it 'must remain open for a sovereign people to reassess its verdict'?

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

Do you, or do you not, agree that it 'must remain open for a sovereign people to reassess its verdict'?

 

When do you think you should stop doing so, or do you propose yearly referenda. What if Remain win the re run, shall we check again in 2020?

 

Even if we don’t have a re run, the people have an opportunity to change their minds every 5 years. They can vote for a party that wants to join the EU, after all that’s how the losers reversed the result of the last vote. The Lib Dem’s went into the last election with the slogan “Exit from Brexit”, had they won a majority that’s exactly what would have happened.

 

 

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[Wes Tender]

I didn't ask whether you could throw a hissy fit. We know the answer to that. I asked whether you agreed with Bogdanor's core point and conclusion.

 

To say that 'there are many who are anti-democratic and want a losers' referendum' is to say the exact opposite of Bogdanor's point - yet you produced his article as if it gave your 'position' a ringing endorsement.

 

Once again, here's Bogdanor's conclusion:

 

"Today, similarly, our exit from the EU depends upon the continuing consent of the people. The notion of finality is quite alien to the spirit of democratic politics. For it must always remain open for a sovereign people to reassess its verdict."

 

Do you, or do you not, agree that it 'must remain open for a sovereign people to reassess its verdict'?

 

Do you agree with his previous article that the people are sovereign?

 

As for your stupid premise that there should be a loser's referendum before we have even enacted the decision of the last one two and a half years ago, then LD sums it up very well in his response.

 

Please be assured that I am not throwing any kind of hissy fit about it. I am calmly watching the clock run down to the default position if we don't agree a trade deal with the EU before the 29th March, leaving on WTO terms.

 

But just to annoy the hell out of you and your fellow anti-democrat remoaners, I give you this:-

 

[Guided Missile]

Finally, the mainstream press catches up with this thread in this article in today's Telegraph.

 

A “sovereign Brexit” would give tremendous impetus to a US-UK free trade deal that would enhance economic freedom on both sides of the Atlantic. In a riposte to the misguided Euro federalism of Barack Obama, US Treasury Secretary, Steven Mnuchin, has made it abundantly clear that Britain will be at the “front of the queue” for a trade deal with the US.

 

In October, the office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR) announced the Trump administration’s intention to negotiate a free trade deal with the UK. And on Capitol Hill, 19 senators have joined the rapidly expanding bipartisan Senate UK Trade Caucus. They understand that a US-UK trade deal will be a generator for jobs, investment and growth, and a further bond uniting two great nations with a common language and heritage. There is every expectation here in Washington that a US-UK trade deal could be in place by the end of 2019 if Brexit goes forward in March, and Britain leaves the customs union.

 

The start of this thread needs to be re-read. Talk about prescient...

[colehillsaint]

What the process now needs is a promise of a people’s vote a year or two after an exit on WTO terms. That way we needn’t commit to permanent financial meltdown. If our new state works then fine, and if not the old gits would shut up permanently with blaming blaming Europe for everything. We could return to Europe re-invigorated and ready to lead as we should always have been doing! I even think that more than 50% would willingly sign up to it.

 

You heard it here first.

[Batman]

What the process now needs is a promise of a people’s vote a year or two after an exit on WTO terms. That way we needn’t commit to permanent financial meltdown. If our new state works then fine, and if not the old gits would shut up permanently with blaming blaming Europe for everything. We could return to Europe re-invigorated and ready to lead as we should always have been doing! I even think that more than 50% would willingly sign up to it.

 

You heard it here first.

you dont need a people's vote, just vote for the political party that wants to return to the EU (ditching the £ and everything)

LibDems are your people my friend. How are they getting on?

Even as more talk from Labour about a 'peoples vote', their 'ratings' are dropping further....

Edited 6 January, 2019 by Batman

[badgerx16]

Finally, the mainstream press catches up with this thread in this article in today's Telegraph.

"A “sovereign Brexit” would give tremendous impetus to a US-UK free trade deal that would enhance economic freedom on both sides of the Atlantic. In a riposte to the misguided Euro federalism of Barack Obama, US Treasury Secretary, Steven Mnuchin, has made it abundantly clear that Britain will be at the “front of the queue” for a trade deal with the US. "

"In October, the office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR) announced the Trump administration’s intention to negotiate a free trade deal with the UK. And on Capitol Hill, 19 senators have joined the rapidly expanding bipartisan Senate UK Trade Caucus. They understand that a US-UK trade deal will be a generator for jobs, investment and growth, and a further bond uniting two great nations with a common language and heritage. There is every expectation here in Washington that a US-UK trade deal could be in place by the end of 2019 if Brexit goes forward in March, and Britain leaves the customs union. "

 

 

The start of this thread needs to be re-read. Talk about prescient...

 

#AmericaFirst - it won't be a meeting of equals.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Do you agree with his previous article that the people are sovereign?

 

As for your stupid premise that there should be a loser's referendum before we have even enacted the decision of the last one two and a half years ago, then LD sums it up very well in his response.

 

Please be assured that I am not throwing any kind of hissy fit about it. I am calmly watching the clock run down to the default position if we don't agree a trade deal with the EU before the 29th March, leaving on WTO terms.

 

But just to annoy the hell out of you and your fellow anti-democrat remoaners, I give you this:-

 

 

If we leave on WTO terms, does that mean a hard border in Northern Ireland straight away?

[colehillsaint]

you dont need a people's vote, just vote for the political party that wants to return to the EU (ditching the £ and everything)

LibDems are your people my friend. How are they getting on?

Even as more talk from Labour about a 'peoples vote', their 'ratings' are dropping further....

 

Not the point. The promise, after a reasonable trial, would be the only way to heal the split in society. I’m away skiing and my wife is getting ****y so will leave it with you. x

[badgerx16]

If we leave on WTO terms, does that mean a hard border in Northern Ireland straight away?

The WTO trade rules would not require a 'hard' border, but the EU Single Market almost certainly would.

[Guided Missile]

This thread needs some pictures:

 

 

 

[Batman]

The WTO trade rules would not require a 'hard' border, but the EU Single Market almost certainly would.

 

Despite all saying there won’t be one?

[saint si]

 

Now post the equivalent graph for UK GDP. Then explain why rest of world is going to be so desperate to trade with us.

[badgerx16]

Despite all saying there won’t be one?

Without an agreement the EU will have to impose strict border controls, the Single Market necessitates this. Without it, for instance, what is to stop somebody importing goods into NI from elsewhere under WTO tariffs that are lower than those of the EU, and then simply shipping these goods across a 'soft' border into Eire. One of the main criticisms of the 'smart' customs solutions is that they cannot "see inside sealed trucks".

[badgerx16]

Now post the equivalent graph for UK GDP. Then explain why rest of world is going to be so desperate to trade with us.

I would have thought that a graph of EU trade share was bound to show a small drop, as China's growth since 1980 has been astronomic in comparison.

[badgerx16]

This thread needs some pictures:

 

 

 

 

Not sure what this is showing, the UK's greatest current account deficit was just over £32Bn.

 

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/current-account-to-gdp

[aintforever]

The problem with the current situation is that it is so polarised. It’s gone from a population deciding what is the best way forward for the country to two groups fighting it out to try and win some sort of battle at all costs. Brexiteers v Remainers - it’s like the same old red v blue crap on steroids with both sides insulting each other and refusing to understand either’s point of view. All empathy and common sense has gone out of the window.

 

Fact is we are all on the same side, no one won or lost June 2016. If we make the wrong choice we are all losers. On the face of it a second referendum is undemocratic but the result would be a much more informed decision and if the alternative is a hard brexit it makes sense to have the option.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

The problem with the current situation is that it is so polarised. It’s gone from a population deciding what is the best way forward for the country to two groups fighting it out to try and win some sort of battle at all costs. Brexiteers v Remainers - it’s like the same old red v blue crap on steroids with both sides insulting each other and refusing to understand either’s point of view. All empathy and common sense has gone out of the window.

 

Fact is we are all on the same side, no one won or lost June 2016. If we make the wrong choice we are all losers. On the face of it a second referendum is undemocratic but the result would be a much more informed decision and if the alternative is a hard brexit it makes sense to have the option.

 

For many of us, the battle is to keep the poor from getting poorer, the economy from struggling and to keep a relationship with our close friends and neighbours in the EU.

 

The other side seem to be wanting to get rid of them pesky foreigners. It'll be interesting though, as from those Brexiteers that I've spoken to, they prefer white foreigners to those of other colours, and we're likely to get a large mix of races going forward.

 

As an aside, do you know that when you foster, you can specify that you only want 'White British'? Disgraceful IMHO.

[saint si]

I would have thought that a graph of EU trade share was bound to show a small drop, as China's growth since 1980 has been astronomic in comparison.

 

Well yes, precisely.

[Verbal]

For many of us, the battle is to keep the poor from getting poorer, the economy from struggling and to keep a relationship with our close friends and neighbours in the EU.

 

The other side seem to be wanting to get rid of them pesky foreigners.

 

This is spot on, Jeffrey. Brexit has never been about getting rid of the EU. It's been about getting rid of immigrants. And to do that, an overwhelmingly old, white, male constituency has said it is quite prepared to make other people poorer. (So long as it's just other people, mind.)

 

Their fantasies on the general theme of Unicorn++++++++++ are merely cover, as they plainly known nothing about nor show any interest in actual trade. Witness the stale pale Brexit loons on here.

[aintforever]

For many of us, the battle is to keep the poor from getting poorer, the economy from struggling and to keep a relationship with our close friends and neighbours in the EU.

 

The other side seem to be wanting to get rid of them pesky foreigners. It'll be interesting though, as from those Brexiteers that I've spoken to, they prefer white foreigners to those of other colours, and we're likely to get a large mix of races going forward.

 

As an aside, do you know that when you foster, you can specify that you only want 'White British'? Disgraceful IMHO.

 

Everyone has their own reasons for voting either way. Most people I know voted remain but of the Brexiteers; one is a typical old Tory - a wealthy company director, very patriotic - thinks Britain with thrive outside. The other has a disabled son and is fed up with queue behind Polish people at the doctors in Shirley. The other is a self employed chippy/builder annoyed with being under-cut by foreign labour. I wouldn’t say any of them are racist.

 

Of course a large chunk of the Brexit vote was probably old people not wanting as many foreigners around - wanting to be around people who speak your language is not racist though. I guess a lot of the older generation are lonely and just don’t like change - if that is their reason for voting leave then that’s up to them.