Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Sheaf Saint]

The members didn’t have a vote.

 

I’m sure we will this time and provided the true Conservatives get behind one candidate, a full blooded Brexit believer will walk it. They’ve got one vote already.

 

 

 

 

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Ah, so you're saying the contest last time was flawed because people who would be directly affected by the result were not given the opportunity to cast a vote?

 

I see.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

LOL. I'm really quite sanguine about the current position. Delude yourself that I'm in a fury if that's what rocks you boat. I'm enjoying the mental picture of your discomfort. I have considered your piece of political guesswork and have already passed comment on it. As I said, you really don't get this democracy lark, do you, believing that there should be a second referendum before the result of the last one has not even been enacted.

 

Yes, if there isn't a majority tonight in the vote of no confidence against May, the rules mean that a further vote of no confidence cannot be held for a year. Technically she could win by one vote and remain as PM. But of course, in the real world, if the vote of no confidence in her was substantial, she would be badly damaged politically and if she didn't offer to resign, would be advised to by the Party hierarchy. See, as a Party member of decades standing I am indeed capable of responding to that as a political outcome.

 

Do you not think if she was going to resign, she would have already? If she wins the vote she's here for quite a while...

[badgerx16]

I never noticed that The Thick of It was a documentary.

[Wes Tender]

Do you not think if she was going to resign, she would have already? If she wins the vote she's here for quite a while...

 

You don't read May very well, do you? She would cling on to her position as PM with her fingertips if necessary. She has a bone-headed stubborness which doesn't allow her to think straight about the massive dissent towards her in her own Party. Recent polls of members had their approval rating of her at historically rock bottom levels for a Party leader. She has surrounded herself with lackeys, so doesn't listen to the clamour in the Party to have her removed from office. Just as an example of how out of touch she is with the membership, she annoyed them last week by getting Central Office to post missives to all Party members crowing about what a great deal hers was and that they should help sell it to the electorate. Apart from the membership being furious that membership fees were being used to fund this propaganda for a deal that the vast majority do not support, they didn't appreciate her going over the heads of MPs to their constituents. Most local associations refused to distribute them so most ended up in the recycling bins.

 

Yes, if she wins the vote she could technically be here for a year, provided that she isn't forced out by other circumstances. However, as I say, if the vote against her is substantial, it doesn't need to be a majority for the Party bigwigs to advise her to resign.

[moonraker]

You don't read May very well, do you? She would cling on to her position as PM with her fingertips if necessary. She has a bone-headed stubborness which doesn't allow her to think straight about the massive dissent towards her in her own Party. Recent polls of members had their approval rating of her at historically rock bottom levels for a Party leader. She has surrounded herself with lackeys, so doesn't listen to the clamour in the Party to have her removed from office. Just as an example of how out of touch she is with the membership, she annoyed them last week by getting Central Office to post missives to all Party members crowing about what a great deal hers was and that they should help sell it to the electorate. Apart from the membership being furious that membership fees were being used to fund this propaganda for a deal that the vast majority do not support, they didn't appreciate her going over the heads of MPs to their constituents. Most local associations refused to distribute them so most ended up in the recycling bins.

 

Yes, if she wins the vote she could technically be here for a year, provided that she isn't forced out by other circumstances. However, as I say, if the vote against her is substantial, it doesn't need to be a majority for the Party bigwigs to advise her to resign.

 

So you are saying that even if she wins the vote it is actually the "Party Bigwigs" who will decide she has to resign, great to see democracy in action in the Tory party!

[benjii]

On today of all days, Corbyn gets mullered at PMQ. Utterly inept all round.

[Cabbage_Face]

Here we go again.....Jezza slinging mud at May, when he doesn't have any plan whatsoever.

[Cabbage_Face]

On today of all days, Corbyn gets mullered at PMQ. Utterly inept all round.

 

How is he losing this? He has so much ammo but cannot work it out. Utter moron.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You don't read May very well, do you? She would cling on to her position as PM with her fingertips if necessary. She has a bone-headed stubborness which doesn't allow her to think straight about the massive dissent towards her in her own Party. Recent polls of members had their approval rating of her at historically rock bottom levels for a Party leader. She has surrounded herself with lackeys, so doesn't listen to the clamour in the Party to have her removed from office. Just as an example of how out of touch she is with the membership, she annoyed them last week by getting Central Office to post missives to all Party members crowing about what a great deal hers was and that they should help sell it to the electorate. Apart from the membership being furious that membership fees were being used to fund this propaganda for a deal that the vast majority do not support, they didn't appreciate her going over the heads of MPs to their constituents. Most local associations refused to distribute them so most ended up in the recycling bins.

 

Yes, if she wins the vote she could technically be here for a year, provided that she isn't forced out by other circumstances. However, as I say, if the vote against her is substantial, it doesn't need to be a majority for the Party bigwigs to advise her to resign.

 

I'm not disagreeing with the fact that she would cling onto this with all her might, so I presume you don't read her very well either??

 

She'll still be here tomorrow, mark my words.

[Cabbage_Face]

Fair play to May, she was very good in that PMQ's. Think she may have won round some of the fence sitters in the vote tonight.

[Sheaf Saint]

Fair play to May, she was very good in that PMQ's. Think she may have won round some of the fence sitters in the vote tonight.

 

FWIW, I think PMQs is just a pointless pantomime. It doesn't matter what Corbyn gets up and asks May, she will never give a straight answer anyway, because she never once has.

 

All she can do is spin every question round into some sort of attack on Labour, as if they are the ones responsible for the total catastrophe we currently find ourselves in. It's risible.

[Cabbage_Face]

FWIW, I think PMQs is just a pointless pantomime. It doesn't matter what Corbyn gets up and asks May, she will never give a straight answer anyway, because she never once has.

 

All she can do is spin every question round into some sort of attack on Labour, as if they are the ones responsible for the total catastrophe we currently find ourselves in. It's risible.

 

Labour are partly responsible, they offer no real alternative view on Brexit at all. Jezza has no plan.

[benjii]

FWIW, I think PMQs is just a pointless pantomime. It doesn't matter what Corbyn gets up and asks May, she will never give a straight answer anyway, because she never once has.

 

All she can do is spin every question round into some sort of attack on Labour, as if they are the ones responsible for the total catastrophe we currently find ourselves in. It's risible.

 

That's what every PM in history has done. Effective opposition still lands blows and boosts support. Corbyn was pathetic today.

[Cabbage_Face]

The problem with Jezza he can't attack May for having a no confidence vote against her, because he had the same.

 

Utter Mess.

[Wes Tender]

So you are saying that even if she wins the vote it is actually the "Party Bigwigs" who will decide she has to resign, great to see democracy in action in the Tory party!

 

Read carefully. I added the caveat that her position would be untenable if there was a substantial vote against her. In those circumstances her authority as PM would be badly undermined. If the party grandees then advised her that the honourable thing to do would be to resign, then it would be difficult for her not to do so. Either that, or have a large portion of the executive and membership of the Party ranged against her.

[shurlock]

That's what every PM in history has done. Effective opposition still lands blows and boosts support. Corbyn was pathetic today.

 

Don't think he was as bad as you claim. Your mate Dunt thinks he did reasonably well. Frankly appeals to parliamentary democracy, as Corbyn made, are pretty abstract and likely to fly above most peoples heads, especially when the reality is that MPs are held in very low regard.

[Sheaf Saint]

Labour are partly responsible, they offer no real alternative view on Brexit at all. Jezza has no plan.

 

And what if they did have a plan? How would that detract from the utter shambles this government has become?

[Cabbage_Face]

And what if they did have a plan? How would that detract from the utter shambles this government has become?

 

It would help the cause of a re-vote or general election. Just sitting there throwing mud, hoping it might stick, is utterly useless.

 

The whole things is shambles, Right to left, Red to Blue. They don't want to leave, so stop lying and just say it as it is.

[Sheaf Saint]

That's what every PM in history has done. Effective opposition still lands blows and boosts support. Corbyn was pathetic today.

 

I dunno. I seem to remember Cameron at least paying lip service to the actual questions asked before giving fashion advice to Corbyn (though that seems so long ago now, given everything that's happened since his disappearing act).

[Sheaf Saint]

It would help the cause of a re-vote or general election. Just sitting there throwing mud, hoping it might stick, is utterly useless.

 

The whole things is shambles, Right to left, Red to Blue. They don't want to leave, so stop lying and just say it as it is.

 

But you repeatedly say you don't want a re-vote and that the 2016 result must be respected or it will cause further unrest. So how would Labour campaigning for it help the situation in your eyes?

[benjii]

And what if they did have a plan? How would that detract from the utter shambles this government has become?

 

It would present a credible (possibly), alternative. As it is, they offer nothing.

 

The SNP is the only credible opposition party in the House at the moment.

[benjii]

Benjii's Brexit Predictions (as of 12/12/18):

 

- May wins confidence vote

 

- May attends a number of discussions with EU. Discussions conclude that greater clarity around backstop arrangements would be beneficial for all but that there is not time to conclude the text this year or sufficiently in advance of leave date

 

- UK and EU agree six month "stay" of leaving date

 

- Slightly clearer deal agreed in the Spring

 

- Parliament votes through deal before summer recess

 

- UK leaves EU in September

 

- May stands down before next general election

 

- PM Boris

[Cabbage_Face]

But you repeatedly say you don't want a re-vote and that the 2016 result must be respected or it will cause further unrest. So how would Labour campaigning for it help the situation in your eyes?

 

I don't want a re-vote, but millions do. Maybe if they offered this an alternative Uncle Jezza might stand a chance. But we all know he isn't a fan of the EU.

 

I don't want him to do anything for me. I just feel he is letting down Labour and it's voters badly. Just like May is doing for us Tories.

[van Hanegem]

****ing in hell what a mess. If this sparks a general election it will be the first time, in my adult life, that I will struggle to cast a vote. I honestly can't see any party worth voting for...****s the lot of them constantly looking to serve their own interests rather the work for the good of country. Not that its really been any different it just seems more magnified the last couple of years.

 

Though every European has to deal with clowns at every side of the political spectrum, clearly the UK wins this contest. One might even get to think a federal Europe would be a better solution...

[Sheaf Saint]

I don't want a re-vote, but millions do. Maybe if they offered this an alternative Uncle Jezza might stand a chance. But we all know he isn't a fan of the EU.

 

I don't want him to do anything for me. I just feel he is letting down Labour and it's voters badly. Just like May is doing for us Tories.

 

Well, you're absolutely right in that respect.

 

The majority of Labour voters voted remain, but are being led by someone who, despite having voted remain himself, would actually rather leave.

 

Conversely, the Tory voters, who mostly voted leave, are being led by someone who voted to remain and, despite constantly declaring that leave means leave, seems to be surreptitiously trying to scupper Brexit completely.

 

It really is a #mess.

[Cabbage_Face]

Well, you're absolutely right in that respect.

 

The majority of Labour voters voted remain, but are being led by someone who, despite having voted remain himself, would actually rather leave.

 

Conversely, the Tory voters, who mostly voted leave, are being led by someone who voted to remain and, despite constantly declaring that leave means leave, seems to be surreptitiously trying to scupper Brexit completely.

 

It really is a #mess.

 

#Mesxit

[shurlock]

It would help the cause of a re-vote or general election. Just sitting there throwing mud, hoping it might stick, is utterly useless.

 

The whole things is shambles, Right to left, Red to Blue. They don't want to leave, so stop lying and just say it as it is.

 

Think of removing the thousands of shreds of cabbage that go into an industrial batch of coleslaw and individually piecing them back to make a cabbage whole again.

 

Leaving the EU is complicated pal.

Edited 12 December, 2018 by shurlock
Brought to you from analogies for dummies.

[Cabbage_Face]

Think of removing the thousands of shreds of cabbage that go into an industrial batch of coleslaw and individually piecing them back to make a cabbage whole again.

 

Leaving the EU is complicated pal.

 

Not really, Leave without a deal, Leave with a deal or remain.

 

Pretty simple, Pal.

[the saint in winchester]

Benjii's Brexit Predictions (as of 12/12/18):

 

- May wins confidence vote

 

- May attends a number of discussions with EU. Discussions conclude that greater clarity around backstop arrangements would be beneficial for all but that there is not time to conclude the text this year or sufficiently in advance of leave date

 

- UK and EU agree six month "stay" of leaving date

 

- Slightly clearer deal agreed in the Spring

 

- Parliament votes through deal before summer recess

 

- UK leaves EU in September

 

- May stands down before next general election

 

- PM Boris

 

All of that SHOULD happen, Benji, it's the sensible course of action. But sense has gone out the window and personal pride and intransigence has taken over.

What I think will happen is similar. She is (allegedly per BBC news) making private agreements with backbenchers today to agree an exit date in return for their support in the vote. She will Brexit us then exit stage left.

ps. Maybe NOT Boris as next PM.

[Cabbage_Face]

Hints that May will stand down after Brexit.

[Wes Tender]

All of that SHOULD happen, Benji, it's the sensible course of action. But sense has gone out the window and personal pride and intransigence has taken over.

What I think will happen is similar. She is (allegedly per BBC news) making private agreements with backbenchers today to agree an exit date in return for their support in the vote. She will Brexit us then exit stage left.

ps. Maybe NOT Boris as next PM.

 

Backbenchers would be foolish to believe anything she promises. She is completely untrustworthy and duplicitous. She is also too weak to make promises and then to keep them, as she is too easily persuaded to alter course towards her fundamental beliefs, rather than sticking to what she was instructed to do by those who put here in office.

[Mystic Force]

One key provision of democracy especially the form that Britain has is that no law cannot be overturned by the passing of a new law. So if people choose to have a new vote and there is a different outcome that is consistent with the way it works. Just because we at some point in the past voted to allow slavery didn't mean the country could not change its mind and vote to abolish the same for example. Similarly by voting again at some point people could change their mind on this action, so this whole nonsense of we can't vote again is ridiculous, now how that works out in the end is probably going to make a bunch more problems. But it is not like everything is running with out incident right now. If for example the original referendum had gone the other way do you think UKIP would have been like "fair enough we will not voice any opinion or run for office we were wrong, and we won't ever ask to leave again" I doubt it.

[shurlock]

Backbenchers would be foolish to believe anything she promises. She is completely untrustworthy and duplicitous. She is also too weak to make promises and then to keep them, as she is too easily persuaded to alter course towards her fundamental beliefs, rather than sticking to what she was instructed to do by those who put here in office.

 

I hope she wins 52-48% with 72% turnout, so she can declare it the will of MPs for all time.

 

As Hammond says, the vote should flush out the 'extremists' (his words) pushing for a no deal.

[ecuk268]

She is completely untrustworthy and duplicitous. .

 

Could equally be said about some of her potential successors.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Could equally be said about some of her potential successors.

 

And the rest of those in parliament as well.

 

It's like saying saying "Brexiteers are thick racists". You don't get one without the other.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

This guy seems alright though...frank, open and honest. Ed Vaizey, take a bow, son.

 

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/conservative-mp-praised-brutally-honest-interview/

Edited 12 December, 2018 by Unbelievable Jeff

[Wes Tender]

I hope she wins 52-48% with 72% turnout, so she can declare it the will of MPs for all time.

 

As Hammond says, the vote should flush out the 'extremists' (his words) pushing for a no deal.

 

You weren't listening, or just don't understand party politics to the degree that you do economics. If 48% of Conservative MPs voted against May, she would be toast.

 

Hammond is being his usual tw*tish self. Voting against Remoaner May doesn't make an Conservative MP an extremist pushing for no deal. Most Brexiteer MPs want a FTA with the EU, but failing that they would happily go for a WTO deal. One doesn't need a vote for May to identify the remoaner MPs in the Conservative Party. You only need to listen to their language. They are the ones who either would even now ignore the wishes of their own electorates, prefer our existing arrangement with the EU to any FTA deal and speak of leaving the EU on WTO terms as "crashing out", going over a "cliff edge" and other shrill language.

 

With luck, May will be replaced by a pro-Brexit leader, who will consider it a pleasure to get rid of spreadsheet Phil, who never passes up the opportunity to talk down our country and our economy in order to weaken our negotiating position with the EU. Amber Rudd will be no loss either.

[RedArmy]

I hope she wins 52-48% with 72% turnout, so she can declare it the will of MPs for all time.

 

As Hammond says, the vote should flush out the 'extremists' (his words) pushing for a no deal.

I hope she loses 52-48% and demands a second vote for the next 2 years.

[Sheaf Saint]

[Lord Duckhunter]

One key provision of democracy especially the form that Britain has is that no law cannot be overturned by the passing of a new law. So if people choose to have a new vote and there is a different outcome that is consistent with the way it works. Just because we at some point in the past voted to allow slavery didn't mean the country could not change its mind and vote to abolish the same for example. Similarly by voting again at some point people could change their mind on this action, so this whole nonsense of we can't vote again is ridiculous, now how that works out in the end is probably going to make a bunch more problems. But it is not like everything is running with out incident right now. If for example the original referendum had gone the other way do you think UKIP would have been like "fair enough we will not voice any opinion or run for office we were wrong, and we won't ever ask to leave again" I doubt it.

 

Can you name another vote where the decision was voted on again BEFORE the result was implemented.

 

This is what remoaners don’t get. They keep coming up with these clever **** analogies every time there’s some sort of vote. It’s perfectly reasonable for a country to change its mind, perfectly normal to campaign again after your side has lost, hoping to change people’s minds and win next time. But, democracy involves enacting the original result first.

 

 

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[Sheaf Saint]

Can you name another vote where the decision was voted on again BEFORE the result was implemented.

 

This is what remoaners don’t get. They keep coming up with these clever **** analogies every time there’s some sort of vote. It’s perfectly reasonable for a country to change its mind, perfectly normal to campaign again after your side has lost, hoping to change people’s minds and win next time. But, democracy involves enacting the original result first.

 

 

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All of which completely ignores the fact that the 2016 referendum was non-binding and advisory.

 

[Verbal]

You weren't listening, or just don't understand party politics to the degree that you do economics. If 48% of Conservative MPs voted against May, she would be toast.

 

Hammond is being his usual tw*tish self. Voting against Remoaner May doesn't make an Conservative MP an extremist pushing for no deal. Most Brexiteer MPs want a FTA with the EU, but failing that they would happily go for a WTO deal. One doesn't need a vote for May to identify the remoaner MPs in the Conservative Party. You only need to listen to their language. They are the ones who either would even now ignore the wishes of their own electorates, prefer our existing arrangement with the EU to any FTA deal and speak of leaving the EU on WTO terms as "crashing out", going over a "cliff edge" and other shrill language.

 

With luck, May will be replaced by a pro-Brexit leader, who will consider it a pleasure to get rid of spreadsheet Phil, who never passes up the opportunity to talk down our country and our economy in order to weaken our negotiating position with the EU. Amber Rudd will be no loss either.

 

You're like a speak-my-extremism parody. Your support for ERG, allied with your (in your mind) genteel racism and your creepily expressed hunt for traitors, puts you in a tiny minority of far-right ignoramuses. May voted remain but she is fundamentally in tune with the core Brexit constituency, who thought the same as her that the real evil was those damned immigrants. As Home Sec she resorted to vicious actions - like the Go Home wagon and ramping up 'hostile environments' - to victimise, among others, ageing British citizens born in the Caribbean, ruining their lives and evidently delighting you.

 

And to address a couple of earlier points: 1. Neither Brexiters nor remainers resort to violent language - but Brexit jihadists do. You do. As does your bestie JJ.

 

And 2. Re: your 'dislike' of 'the Arabs' (fu ck me, what an utterly cretinous comment), why do you 'dislike' any of the following Arabs:

 

Yazidis, Kurds, Ismailis, Ahmadis, Druze, Zoroastrians, Copts, Lebanese Christians, Iraqi Marsh Arabs, Christian Palestinians, any Palestinians, Bedouin Arabs, Israeli Arabs, Bahraini Shia, Southern Iraqi Shia, Syriac Christians, Assyrians, etc., etc.

 

These, and many more, are encompassed within your 'the Arabs'. So give us a good, heartwarming, Brexity explanation for your racist feelings against Arabs. And confirmation that you've ever knowingly met a single one of them. Ta very much!

[shurlock]

Next year Rodney...

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-politics-salvini/italys-salvini-changes-tack-on-eu-in-bid-for-center-ground-idUSKBN1OB224

[Wes Tender]

All of which completely ignores the fact that the 2016 referendum was non-binding and advisory.

 

 

You obviously missed the statements by then Prime Minister Cameron and other major politicians saying that whatever the electorate vote for will be implemented by them and that a simple majority would be sufficient. There ensued the GE manifestos in 2017 stating the same and the substantial majority in Parliament to trigger Article 50. There was the opportunity immediately after the vote for the Government to have said, "right we hear what you want, but we're not going to implement it, because it was only advisory and we think that we're better off inside the EU". But then they would have risked the repercussion of civil unrest unprecedented in our modern history, so they thought better of it.

 

It is a bit feeble two and a half years after the referendum vote suggesting that it was purely advisory. Who would dare take that line now in Parliament?

[Wes Tender]

You're like a speak-my-extremism parody. Your support for ERG, allied with your (in your mind) genteel racism and your creepily expressed hunt for traitors, puts you in a tiny minority of far-right ignoramuses. May voted remain but she is fundamentally in tune with the core Brexit constituency, who thought the same as her that the real evil was those damned immigrants. As Home Sec she resorted to vicious actions - like the Go Home wagon and ramping up 'hostile environments' - to victimise, among others, ageing British citizens born in the Caribbean, ruining their lives and evidently delighting you.

 

And to address a couple of earlier points: 1. Neither Brexiters nor remainers resort to violent language - but Brexit jihadists do. You do. As does your bestie JJ.

 

And 2. Re: your 'dislike' of 'the Arabs' (fu ck me, what an utterly cretinous comment), why do you 'dislike' any of the following Arabs:

 

Yazidis, Kurds, Ismailis, Ahmadis, Druze, Zoroastrians, Copts, Lebanese Christians, Iraqi Marsh Arabs, Christian Palestinians, any Palestinians, Bedouin Arabs, Israeli Arabs, Bahraini Shia, Southern Iraqi Shia, Syriac Christians, Assyrians, etc., etc.

 

These, and many more, are encompassed within your 'the Arabs'. So give us a good, heartwarming, Brexity explanation for your racist feelings against Arabs. And confirmation that you've ever knowingly met a single one of them. Ta very much!

 

Calm down dear. I can almost see the blood vessels popping out on your temple and the reddening rage in your face. You do enjoy your little fantasies with you churlish name-calling and your bizarre labeling of people who disagree with you as jihadists for some reason. Sorry to disappoint you, but immigration wasn't the top reason why I voted to leave the EU, but just carry on with your pigeon-holing fantasies if it gives you a hard-on barking up the wrong tree as usual. I'm quite relaxed about the Windrush generation and see no reason why they should be repatriated so long after they came here. They have generally integrated well into our society. I'm also quite relaxed about controlled immigration, assessed on the basis of qualifications and need rather than just citizenship of the EU. I know that this doesn't suit your agenda, so I'm sorry if you are disappointed.

 

As for the rest, it isn't worth wasting my time on. Again, sorry to disappoint you. As I say, sit down, take a deep breath and calm yourself.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Calm down dear. I can almost see the blood vessels popping out on your temple and the reddening rage in your face. You do enjoy your little fantasies with you churlish name-calling and your bizarre labeling of people who disagree with you as jihadists for some reason. Sorry to disappoint you, but immigration wasn't the top reason why I voted to leave the EU, but just carry on with your pigeon-holing fantasies if it gives you a hard-on barking up the wrong tree as usual. I'm quite relaxed about the Windrush generation and see no reason why they should be repatriated so long after they came here. They have generally integrated well into our society. I'm also quite relaxed about controlled immigration, assessed on the basis of qualifications and need rather than just citizenship of the EU. I know that this doesn't suit your agenda, so I'm sorry if you are disappointed.

 

As for the rest, it isn't worth wasting my time on. Again, sorry to disappoint you. As I say, sit down, take a deep breath and calm yourself.

 

Why do you hate Arabs though, or is it all brown skinned people?

[RedArmy]

 

Skip to 39:00 and remind yourselves what was said.

[shurlock]

Farage -aka racist Zippy from Rainbow- getting worked up on LBC.

[Wes Tender]

Why do you hate Arabs though, or is it all brown skinned people?

 

Sorry to correct you, I didn't say that I hated Arabs. You really do need to take everything that Verbal says with a giant pinch of salt.

[Cabbage_Face]

I think we should go third time lucky with the people’s vote, **** it.

 

 

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