Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Maybe it just gets f*cking boring trying to reason with people like you, as to why some people don't believe adding a million plus to our population every 3 years is sustainable.

 

Why is it not sustainable? And considering that it's mostly people coming in from outside the EU Brexit ain't gonna change that.

 

As an aside, I have hardly been on this thread, so not quite sure why everyone is getting so angsty with me? Just asking some questions.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You draw your own conclusions. I'm not remotely interested in what they are.

 

I have hardly been on this thread. It was a simple question. No idea why you're getting yourself in a tizz over it.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You really do believe everything that project fear tells you, don't you? How incredibly naive you must be. Nobody with any intelligence believes what the Treasury forecasts are any more and even Carney places caveats on his own dire forecasts. What a pity that it is only the Remoaners who have the brains and that all of the Brexiteers are thickos, eh? They must be, mustn't they, as they are prepared to bugger the economy and ruin the livelihoods of untold millions just to get out of the EU straight-jacket and regain control over our own destiny. There aren't any upsides from Brexit, are there? All doom and gloom, we're all going to hell in a handcart,aren't we?

 

By the way, you never told me how old you were following your previous infantile outbursts.

 

I think you'd be rather surprised if you knew who Verbal was... I'm all up for criticising muppets on this forum, but some have some quite decent credentials.

[Wes Tender]

The last you extolled the upsides from Brexit (i.e. something vague about cheaper imports), I gave you a few facts at which point you ran away, unable to defend your position.

 

Do enlighten me Les.

 

The referendum was two and a half years ago and I'm not going to fight the campaign all over again. Most of the project fear predictions which would follow from a vote to leave the EU from before the referendum never materialised. In fact in many cases, quite the opposite, with rises in employment, growth in the economy, rises in house prices, etc. So excuse me if I show a great deal of cynicism about the same people making the same dire forecasts, including you.

[Wes Tender]

I think you'd be rather surprised if you knew who Verbal was... I'm all up for criticising muppets on this forum, but some have some quite decent credentials.

 

Who ever he is, he lowers any respect that his credentials might earn him by the childish puerility of some of his responses. Ditto Shurlock and Moonraker.

[Orange]

Why is it not sustainable? And considering that it's mostly people coming in from outside the EU Brexit ain't gonna change that.

 

As an aside, I have hardly been on this thread, so not quite sure why everyone is getting so angsty with me? Just asking some questions.

 

You said I think that shows what you're about then. Hardly 'just asking questions' were you.

 

And it's sustainable or unsustainable depending on what kind of UK you think is desirable for our future. If you want to live in a concreted-over sprawl of a country, with little identity left of it's own, then f*ck it, why don't we add another couple of million on every 3 years. Fair enough if you're enthusiastic about that, but it's bizarre you can't see why a lot of people aren't.

[shurlock]

The referendum was two and a half years ago and I'm not going to fight the campaign all over again. Most of the project fear predictions which would follow from a vote to leave the EU from before the referendum never materialised. In fact in many cases, quite the opposite, with rises in employment, growth in the economy, rises in house prices, etc. So excuse me if I show a great deal of cynicism about the same people making the same dire forecasts, including you.

 

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Les.

 

You’ve talked up the benefits of rejecting May’s deal and reverting to WTO terms - in particular the consumer gains from eliminating tariffs which is one JRM’s favourite talking points. We’re not refighting the campaign; it’s a very live issue.

 

I presented data casting doubt on the size of those gains. I made no reference to HMT or the BoE or their macroeconomic forecasts, so that’s a complete red herring.

 

As you’re unable to defend your position (just as you were previously), I can only conclude you don’t have a response. Nothing wrong with accepting and even admitting your limitations pal.

Edited 29 November, 2018 by shurlock

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You said I think that shows what you're about then. Hardly 'just asking questions' were you.

 

And it's sustainable or unsustainable depending on what kind of UK you think is desirable for our future. If you want to live in a concreted-over sprawl of a country, with little identity left of it's own, then f*ck it, why don't we add another couple of million on every 3 years. Fair enough if you're enthusiastic about that, but it's bizarre you can't see why a lot of people aren't.

 

Your issue is with over-population, but that is more of a demographic based forecast - you can add a million over 3 years, if the birth rate within the UK is slowing. You can add to the population without putting a strain on public resources, as long as you have the investment and sustainability in the economy, as well as a willing Government, to allow the continued expansion of these resources. However, none of these are a Brexit or EU issue.

[moonraker]

Who ever he is, he lowers any respect that his credentials might earn him by the childish puerility of some of his responses. Ditto Shurlock and Moonraker.

 

This is football forum, childish puerility is the norm, the problem is that when one attempts to debate in an adult manner both sides descend very quickly to childish puerility. The biggest frustration being peoples inability to give a straight answer to a question.

[shurlock]

Your issue is with over-population, but that is more of a demographic based forecast - you can add a million over 3 years, if the birth rate within the UK is slowing. You can add to the population without putting a strain on public resources, as long as you have the investment and sustainability in the economy, as well as a willing Government, to allow the continued expansion of these resources. However, none of these are a Brexit or EU issue.

 

It also helps that European migrants pay substantially more in taxes to the government than they take in benefits or public services.

 

One reason to be relatively optimistic about the UK’s long-term economic prospects is that the workforce is projected to grow whereas it is shrinking in other countries. Of course that assumes the same levels of migration that we’ve come used to.

[Cabbage_Face]

Have we left yet?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

It also helps that European migrants pay substantially more in taxes to the government than they take in benefits or public services.

 

One reason to be relatively optimistic about the UK’s long-term economic prospects is that the workforce is projected to grow whereas it is shrinking in other countries. Of course that assumes the same levels of migration that we’ve come used to.

 

Exactly, and the point I'm getting to.

 

A lot of the Brexiteers who have an issue with the strain that immigration has put on public resources are not looking into it enough. The reason we now have schools with 35 kids in a class, or A&E waiting times are up, is not that there are too many people here - it's that the relative investment to those people has not been made by the incumbent Government(s). However, in the years leading up to the Brexit vote (when we were in 'Austerity' kids), there was a campaign to take the spotlight off the Government spending plans, and onto immigration, so they could fool people into thinking that immigration was the issue. It wasn't then, it isn't now, and it won't be in the future.

 

We can control our EU borders so that those pesky Euro people will only be allowed to stay over here IF they have a job, and create a net surplus to the economy - which as Shurlock rightly pointed out, they do.

 

Unfortunately, too many people have been duped, and these are the people who have voted themselves out of jobs, into debt, and eating out of a ****ing food bank.

 

Oh, and I am also an ex card-carrying member of the Tory party, before people think I'm some pansy lefty socialist.

[Cabbage_Face]

 

Unfortunately, too many people have been duped, and these are the people who have voted themselves out of jobs, into debt, and eating out of a ****ing food bank.

 

 

Evidence please.

[Wes Tender]

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Les.

 

You’ve talked up the benefits of rejecting May’s deal and reverting to WTO terms - in particular the consumer gains from eliminating tariffs which is one JRM’s favourite talking points. We’re not refighting the campaign; it’s a very live issue.

 

I presented data casting doubt on the size of those gains. I made no reference to HMT or the BoE or their macroeconomic forecasts, so that’s a complete red herring.

 

As you’re unable to defend your position (just as you were previously), I can only conclude you don’t have a response. Nothing wrong with accepting and even admitting your limitations pal.

 

Economy, economy, economy. You just don't get it, do you? That emphasis lost Remain the referendum and yet they still go on about the economy, the economy, the economy, when the majority of Brexit voters placed their priorities elsewhere. The pound might have dropped, but the penny hasn't yet. You do know the story about Peter and the Wolf, don't you? People are fed up with unsubstantiated claptrap about the affects that a clean Brexit would have on us, and they have heard it explained so often as a cliff edge, a car crash, a disaster, that they have just stopped believing any of it.

[shurlock]

Economy, economy, economy. You just don't get it, do you? That emphasis lost Remain the referendum and yet they still go on about the economy, the economy, the economy, when the majority of Brexit voters placed their priorities elsewhere. The pound might have dropped, but the penny hasn't yet. You do know the story about Peter and the Wolf, don't you? People are fed up with unsubstantiated claptrap about the affects that a clean Brexit would have on us, and they have heard it explained so often as a cliff edge, a car crash, a disaster, that they have just stopped believing any of it.

 

Les, you're bundling lots of different things and still wont answer the question, so lets be clear.

 

First I've expressed my scepticism of official forecasts numerous times on here and am careful not to invoke them to support a position.

 

Second, you are correct that people didn't just vote for economic reasons (though those other reasons are no less contestable, never mind their realisation depends on a strong economy).

 

However, in the particular case of tariffs and consumer savings, you unambiguously made an economic claim (indeed it is one of leave's favourite claims). You failed to respond to the evidence I presented. Shall I take to mean that you can't respond pal?

[Orange]

Your issue is with over-population, but that is more of a demographic based forecast - you can add a million over 3 years, if the birth rate within the UK is slowing. You can add to the population without putting a strain on public resources, as long as you have the investment and sustainability in the economy, as well as a willing Government, to allow the continued expansion of these resources. However, none of these are a Brexit or EU issue.

 

You don't get it though, we don't want to cram over a million on to the population every 3 years. We don't want to concrete over our country with new housing, roads and infrastructure services to sustain never-ending population growth.

 

And I can see why you're pro EU, clearly support the same vision of population replacement. The old 'ageing population guise'.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You don't get it though, we don't want to cram over a million on to the population every 3 years. We don't want to concrete over our country with new housing, roads and infrastructure services to sustain never-ending population growth.

 

And I can see why you're pro EU, clearly support the same vision of population replacement. The old 'ageing population guise'.

 

But how is leaving the EU going to stop that? Last year we saw a massive fall in the number of migrants from the EU. Do you know what happened? We replaced that with people from non-EU countries as we had to cover the slack.

 

The situation you are talking about is not going to stop because of Brexit - because the economy and population drives the need for working people. The problem starts at home where we have to replace people unwilling to work in our population, and the massive ageing population, to ensure the economy and basic services keep functioning.

 

If you think we're going to stop inviting people over here to work, then you are going to be sorely disappointed. The same number of skilled workers are still going to be needed, and because of the poor investment in public services, those people are still going to come from overseas.

 

What you need to do is deal with the source of the problem, and not with the result. The problem is you've been fooled that where the migrants come in is the source, when in actual fact it is WAY before that.

[Cabbage_Face]

But how is leaving the EU going to stop that? Last year we saw a massive fall in the number of migrants from the EU. Do you know what happened? We replaced that with people from non-EU countries as we had to cover the slack.

 

 

Evidence please.

[shurlock]

Evidence please.

 

The number of EU citizens moving to the UK has continued to drop, but more people coming from elsewhere means the overall migration rate is unchanged.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46384417

[Cabbage_Face]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46384417

 

Since 2008 Non- EU Migration has always been higher than EU Migration thou. So bit of a non Argument from both sides.

 

I think the problem is "freedom of movement" where little or no checks are carried out on the people transiting the EU Countries and the fact when you have mass migration of folk from Hostile environments these people are not checked adequately and given citizenship. That's what Brexit folk feared.

 

Whatever the arguments, the people have spoken, we must leave the EU.

[shurlock]

Since 2008 Non- EU Migration has always been higher than EU Migration thou. So bit of a non Argument from both sides.

 

I think the problem is "freedom of movement" where little or no checks are carried out on the people transiting the EU Countries and the fact when you have mass migration of folk from Hostile environments these people are not checked adequately and given citizenship. That's what Brexit folk feared.

 

Whatever the arguments, the people have spoken, we must leave the EU.

 

What the hell does this mean?

 

Do you have the breaking point poster up in your bedroom or something?

 

#mess

Edited 29 November, 2018 by shurlock
coleslaw in mess shocker

[Sheaf Saint]

Whatever the arguments, the people have spoken, we must leave the EU.

 

[Cabbage_Face]

What the hell does this mean?

 

Do you have the breaking point poster up in your bedroom or something?

 

#msss

 

Sorry, i'll make it simple for you. Brexitters don't like foreigners coming over and blowing stuff up.

 

#msss

[Cabbage_Face]

 

Yeah because going for a picnic is the same as 1 million people out voting the other side.

 

I voted Remain, I accept we lost, get over it.

[doddisalegend]

Since 2008 Non- EU Migration has always been higher than EU Migration thou. So bit of a non Argument from both sides.

 

I think the problem is "freedom of movement" where little or no checks are carried out on the people transiting the EU Countries and the fact when you have mass migration of folk from Hostile environments these people are not checked adequately and given citizenship. That's what Brexit folk feared.

 

Whatever the arguments, the people have spoken, we must leave the EU.

 

 

Worried we will be over run by Rote Armee Fraktion, Rode Jeugd, Euskadi Ta Askatasuna and the IRA?

[Cabbage_Face]

Worried we will be over run by Rote Armee Fraktion, Rode Jeugd, Euskadi Ta Askatasuna and the IRA?

 

 

Probably. God knows. It's (as Shurlock would say) one big MSSS

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Evidence please.

 

Here you go:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/29/eu-net-migration-uk-falls-lowest-level-almost-six-years

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Yeah because going for a picnic is the same as 1 million people out voting the other side.

 

I voted Remain, I accept we lost, get over it.

 

You do understand the point of metaphor's don't you? It's not the picnic that's important, it's the fact that decision cannot be changed based on a change of circumstances.

[Cabbage_Face]

You do understand the point of metaphor's don't you? It's not the picnic that's important, it's the fact that decision cannot be changed based on a change of circumstances.

 

 

I do, but try and compare it to something comparable. It's a very ****e metaphor.

 

I'd like a second vote, but i fear the outcome wouldn't change.

 

If this is the case. How many votes do you want until we get the outcome we want?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I do, but try and compare it to something comparable. It's a very ****e metaphor.

 

I'd like a second vote, but i fear the outcome wouldn't change.

 

If this is the case. How many votes do you want until we get the outcome we want?

 

I'm not even 100% sure I want another vote. This is not a decision that should have been given to the general public.

 

If we don't get May's deal voted in (which it shouldn't be), the Government should just stop Brexit as it is irresponsible to take the country down that route.

[Cabbage_Face]

I'm not even 100% sure I want another vote. This is not a decision that should have been given to the general public.

 

If we don't get May's deal voted in (which it shouldn't be), the Government should just stop Brexit as it is irresponsible to take the country down that route.

 

Well sadly they cannot stop Brexit, the people that elected the Government have voted to Leave the EU. They would all risk political suicide to do this.

 

God, we can't even get the Leaders of the two biggest parties to agree what channel the debate should be on, because old Jezza doesn't want to miss "Im a celeb". Maybe we should send him into the Jungle.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Well sadly they cannot stop Brexit, the people that elected the Government have voted to Leave the EU. They would all risk political suicide to do this.

 

God, we can't even get the Leaders of the two biggest parties to agree what channel the debate should be on, because old Jezza doesn't want to miss "Im a celeb". Maybe we should send him into the Jungle.

 

May is on her way out - she will be regarded as a hero if she stopped us in our tracks rather than the coach driver that drove us off the cliff.

 

We voted to leave the EU, but the vote wasn't binding, it was advisory. As more information comes to light for a lot of the population, and the Government, surely doing what is best for the country is the number one priority.

[Cabbage_Face]

May is on her way out - she will be regarded as a hero if she stopped us in our tracks rather than the coach driver that drove us off the cliff.

 

We voted to leave the EU, but the vote wasn't binding, it was advisory. As more information comes to light for a lot of the population, and the Government, surely doing what is best for the country is the number one priority.

 

She won't thou, it might have been "advisory" but lets face it, if Cameron would have ignored it and said "nope we are staying". What would have been the point? No politician would dare to do that. Not with the voting turnout.

 

Personally i'm sick of it all, I will not be voting again for any party and will just spoil my paper. What i've learnt from all this, all politicians are in it for themselves, they don't care about the people that vote them into power.

 

It's a right old Msss

Edited 29 November, 2018 by Cabbage_Face

[Wes Tender]

Shall I take to mean that you can't respond pal?

 

No. Take it that frankly I can't be arsed.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

No. Take it that frankly I can't be arsed.

 

Ah, so you coincidentally picked this specific time to decide you can't be arsed?

 

Alright then

[badgerx16]

...all politicians are in it for themselves, they don't care about the people that vote them into power.

True dat.

[Lord Duckhunter]

You do understand the point of metaphor's don't you? It's not the picnic that's important, it's the fact that decision cannot be changed based on a change of circumstances.

 

I’ll give you a metaphor that’s nearer the mark. Jeremy Corbyn wins the next election, as he’s driving to Buckingham Palace to see her Maj, he gets a call. “Jezza, there’s been a run on the pound, business would prefer The Tories, Carney is wetting his pants, nobody voted to be worse off. Turn round and come home, we’re having another go in case people have changed their mind”.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[aintforever]

We voted to leave the EU, but the vote wasn't binding, it was advisory. As more information comes to light for a lot of the population, and the Government, surely doing what is best for the country is the number one priority.

 

That’s one way of looking at it, another way is that May and the EU have carefully crafted a deal that they know has no chance of getting through Parliament and used the threat of no deal Armageddon to bully the UK to stay in against its democratic wish.

[shurlock]

That’s one way of looking at it, another way is that May and the EU have carefully crafted a deal that they know has no chance of getting through Parliament and used the threat of no deal Armageddon to bully the UK to stay in against its democratic wish.

 

Don’t be a cretin.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

That’s one way of looking at it, another way is that May and the EU have carefully crafted a deal that they know has no chance of getting through Parliament and used the threat of no deal Armageddon to bully the UK to stay in against its democratic wish.

 

Well, fingers crossed eh?

[Jonnyboy]

That’s one way of looking at it, another way is that May and the EU have carefully crafted a deal that they know has no chance of getting through Parliament and used the threat of no deal Armageddon to bully the UK to stay in against its democratic wish.

 

I think it's more likely they would collude to trigger a second referendum but make it look as if May had no choice legally.

[aintforever]

Well, fingers crossed eh?

 

Probably the best option but it will lead to a lot of resentment. Basically means that we’re stuck in the EU for good wether we like it or not. The only way a second refurendum would be palatable for me would be if the EU make some sort of concession on free movement.

[doddisalegend]

I’ll give you a metaphor that’s nearer the mark. Jeremy Corbyn wins the next election, as he’s driving to Buckingham Palace to see her Maj, he gets a call. “Jezza, there’s been a run on the pound, business would prefer The Tories, Carney is wetting his pants, nobody voted to be worse off. Turn round and come home, we’re having another go in case people have changed their mind”.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

so you are saying we should have a referendum on being in (or out) of the EU every four years so people can change their mind like they do in a general election….sounds like a plan

[Lord Duckhunter]

so you are saying we should have a referendum on being in (or out) of the EU every four years so people can change their mind like they do in a general election….sounds like a plan

 

Sure, GE’s are every 5 years, but apart from that, good point. We’ll implement the leave vote, then 5 years after leaving we can have a vote to remain out, or go back in.

 

I do feel you missed the crucial point. People get to vote and maybe change their mind AFTER the result has been implemented in full.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Wes Tender]

Ah, so you coincidentally picked this specific time to decide you can't be arsed?

 

Alright then

 

Yes, it is my privilege you know. Not much point in wasting time on idle chit chat until after May's pathetic attempt at a deal is rejected by Parliament. In the meantime, I'll just watch the establishment hysteria vent itself in project fear on steroids as freedom day the 29th March gets closer and closer.

[badgerx16]

.... AFTER the result has been implemented in full.

Looks like we're in for a long wait then.

[Weston Super Saint]

It also helps that European migrants pay substantially more in taxes to the government than they take in benefits or public services.

 

 

As opposed to migrants from outside the EU?

 

Unless of course their visa states 'no recourse to public funds' as most of them do

[buctootim]

I do, but try and compare it to something comparable. It's a very ****e metaphor.

 

How about Sarah Woolaston, a GP and Chair of the Health select committee?

 

As a doctor, Wollaston has a long acquaintance with the principle of “informed consent”. Any patient about to undergo an operation, she says, would “expect to know what the operation is going to be, the risks and benefits. What you wouldn’t do is consent someone to an operation two years in advance, without them knowing what the operation involved”.

 

This, she says, is why she has joined the campaign for a second referendum. “If, in two years’ time, there are serious unintended consequences, I don’t want people writing to me asking ‘what did you do?’ I want to be able to point to the things that I did try to do. Not because I want to block Brexit, but because I want to check we’re prepared. To proceed without informed consent would be a catastrophic mistake.”

Edited 29 November, 2018 by buctootim

[buctootim]

As opposed to migrants from outside the EU?

 

Unless of course their visa states 'no recourse to public funds' as most of them do

 

The biggest, far and away the biggest spend of public funds is the NHS. Anybody living in the UK can access it for free. Quite a deal if you also claim you are domiciled for tax purposes overseas and therefore not liable for tax. EU citizens have no incentive to do that 1. because of reciprocity on health within the EU 2. Tax burdens in EU countries are generally at least as high as the UK and enforcement is tight. Not so with visa holders from developing countries.

Edited 29 November, 2018 by buctootim

[badgerx16]

Yes, it is my privilege you know. Not much point in wasting time on idle chit chat until after May's pathetic attempt at a deal is rejected by Parliament. In the meantime, I'll just watch the establishment hysteria vent itself in project fear on steroids as freedom day the 29th March gets closer and closer.

Exactly how 'free' do you expect to be on 30th March 2019 ?