Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[Sheaf Saint]

Agreed and with respect, desiring a United States of Europe would undoubtedly be a minority view in this country.

 

You're probably right, but it would very much depend on who you ask and where.

 

In principle, I'm not against the idea. If it's going to happen anyway then I would much prefer the UK to be part of it, rather than a minor little nationalistic island on the outside that's thrown its toys out of the pram.

[hypochondriac]

Lol gove not resigning. What a man of principle!

[scotty]

 

In principle, I'm not against the idea. If it's going to happen anyway then I would much prefer the UK to be part of it, rather than a minor little nationalistic island on the outside that's thrown its toys out of the pram.

 

Much the same view was being voiced when we were favourites to go into the euro. Is there actually anyone left now suggesting that we should have done that, or that we still ought to?

[hypochondriac]

Much the same view was being voiced when we were favourites to go into the euro. Is there actually anyone left now suggesting that we should have done that, or that we still ought to?

I can't be annoyed at someone who states an honest opinion. If you don't care about sovereignty then that's fair enough at least it's a sincerely held belief I just fundamentally disagree.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Meanwhile Juncker’s sciatica playing up again, having trouble dressing himself.

 

http:// https://mobile.twitter.com/freespirited_p/status/1063331262151213056

 

 

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[Sheaf Saint]

Lol gove not resigning. What a man of principle!

 

As a Defra employee, apparently I must refrain from sharing on any form of social media what I really think of him.

 

However, as one of the architects of this entire mess, refusing to accept the job which would actually enable him to be involved in shaping the outcome really isn't a good look for him.

[hypochondriac]

As a Defra employee, apparently I must refrain from sharing on any form of social media what I really think of him.

 

However, as one of the architects of this entire mess, refusing to accept the job which would actually enable him to be involved in shaping the outcome really isn't a good look for him.

Well to be fair it sounds like that job is a bit of a sham. I can understand not taking that job at this stage as clearly they just want someone to be a cheerleader for this terrible deal but if he knows he can't support this deal, how can he possibly stay in the cabinet?

[Cabbage_Face]

Gove is a berk.

[shurlock]

Much the same view was being voiced when we were favourites to go into the euro. Is there actually anyone left now suggesting that we should have done that, or that we still ought to?

 

Reading the experts on this thread, you’d think that the UK had joined the Euro and Schengen given Brussels is all-powerful and national sovereignty is just a fig-leaf (forget the fundamental principles of subsidiarity and unanimity in the most sensitive areas).

 

But no if the UK remained in the EU, it would be strong-armed into an EU army under the Fourth Reich. The state of this place sometimes

Edited 16 November, 2018 by shurlock

[hypochondriac]

Reading the experts on this thread, you’d think that the UK had joined the Euro and Schengen given Brussels is all-powerful and national sovereignty is just a fig-leaf (forget the fundamental principles of subsidiarity and unanimity in the most sensitive areas).

 

But no if the UK remained in the EU, it would be strong-armed into an EU army under the Fourth Reich. The state of this place sometimes [emoji38]

I wouldn't worry. Talk of an EU army is just a dangerous fantasy...

[shurlock]

I wouldn't worry. Talk of an EU army is just a dangerous fantasy...

 

I'm not worrying. Can't say the same about others on here, though

[hypochondriac]

I'm not worrying. Can't say the same about others on here, though [emoji38]

Sprinkling of sovereignty this year, a little EU army next year. Its nothing to be bothered about as long as they do it slowly. I wonder if the current direction of travel had been made clear to the public of the EU even twenty years ago what the reaction would have been.

[Plastic]

Sprinkling of sovereignty this year, a little EU army next year.

Ah, an EU Army. Agree there have been plenty of lies about this in the past, but if we look at it objectively - A strong UK within the EU would likely have had a very prominent role in this, now we will have a large coordinated military force on our doorstep that we are not a part of. Disquieting.

[Window Cleaner]

Ah, an EU Army. Agree there have been plenty of lies about this in the past, but if we look at it objectively - A strong UK within the EU would likely have had a very prominent role in this, now we will have a large coordinated military force on our doorstep that we are not a part of. Disquieting.

 

 

I'd not worry about it at all. Wait until they start argueing about who's going to pay for it.

[hypochondriac]

Ah, an EU Army. Agree there have been plenty of lies about this in the past, but if we look at it objectively - A strong UK within the EU would likely have had a very prominent role in this, now we will have a large coordinated military force on our doorstep that we are not a part of. Disquieting.

It's the people saying it would never ever happen who are now deriding people for being nervous about the direction of travel in Europe. Let's remember that this is an EU looking to punish Italy for daring to implement the promises they were elected for and look at how Greece were forced into a surrender. Next time they will have military power to back it up led by the Germans. They want "an empire of the good" and they don't realise how hilarious a phrase like that sounds? If you point any of this out though you are dismissed as "dangerous fantisists" but people aren't stupid, they can see where the EU has been heading despite those at the top openly admitting that they lie about it. Look at the amount of supposedly democratic votes that have been lost by the EU where the result is either ignore or they are forced to vote again until they vote the right way. They are now well on their way to doing the same with brexit which makes a mockery of the idea that the people are listened to.

 

Let's be honest, if they allowed the general public to have a say about an EU army they would be resoundingly defeated. They are only interested in consolidating their power.

Edited 16 November, 2018 by hypochondriac

[RedArmy]

Ah, an EU Army. Agree there have been plenty of lies about this in the past, but if we look at it objectively - A strong UK within the EU would likely have had a very prominent role in this, now we will have a large coordinated military force on our doorstep that we are not a part of. Disquieting.

Ever heard of NATO? Fear mongering wally.

[hypochondriac]

Ever heard of NATO? Fear mongering wally.

Good point. We already have a defence force, why then do you think we would require an EU army then do you think?

[Window Cleaner]

Saudi Arabia's defence budget is higher than either that of France or of German by some way. France's total defence budget runs at about 55 billion dollars, and a fair old chunk of that is attributed to it's far flung colonies, Germany about 10 billion less than that. Italy comes next I think with about 22 million. So a total for the "big 3" of some 125 billion dollars. The rest are fairly inconsequent . Compared to the US at 610 billion or so they've a lot of money to find to have anything vaguely comparable.

Edited 16 November, 2018 by Window Cleaner

[Plastic]

Ever heard of NATO? Fear mongering wally.

 

No, who are they? Ever heard the word objective?

 

Good point. We already have a defence force, why then do you think we would require an EU army then do you think?

 

I don't - but its not our choice any more is it!

[shurlock]

Ever heard of NATO? Fear mongering wally.

 

A bit more complicated than that pal. Your mate Trump has called NATO obsolete.

 

Never mind the current US administration has led to uncertainty about its engagement and commitment in the world or that it’s positon on a number of issues is at odds with Europe and the UK or that there are security issues such as migration crisis which are local in nature.

 

Even NATO leaders have called on Europe to grow up and be willing to provide all the capabilities to handle a regional crisis without American engagement if the US does not wish to engage.

[doddisalegend]

I like this opinion peace quite long but spot on for me it certainly could describe a few posters on this thread....

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/16/brexit-paranoid-fantasy-fintan-otoole

[Cabbage_Face]

Would a European Army really be that effective, the French part would just surrender and the Italian part would swap sides. #mess

[sandwichsaint]

It's the people saying it would never ever happen who are now deriding people for being nervous about the direction of travel in Europe. Let's remember that this is an EU looking to punish Italy for daring to implement the promises they were elected for and look at how Greece were forced into a surrender. Next time they will have military power to back it up led by the Germans. They want "an empire of the good" and they don't realise how hilarious a phrase like that sounds? If you point any of this out though you are dismissed as "dangerous fantisists" but people aren't stupid, they can see where the EU has been heading despite those at the top openly admitting that they lie about it. Look at the amount of supposedly democratic votes that have been lost by the EU where the result is either ignore or they are forced to vote again until they vote the right way. They are now well on their way to doing the same with brexit which makes a mockery of the idea that the people are listened to.

 

Let's be honest, if they allowed the general public to have a say about an EU army they would be resoundingly defeated. They are only interested in consolidating their power.

 

Extraordinary, you can leave tomorrow if you want, the EU aren't stopping anybody from leaving.

 

Pay the money we owe, agree on how much for future payments we owe for projects/pensions we've already committed to and off we go. Hard border in Ireland, no frictionless free trade, 1m expats cast adrift and stateless in the EU, no idea what we would do with the EU citizens that happen to be here, probably keep the economically worthwhile ones and put the rest on trains. No agreement or deal on euratom, medicine testing, aviation but who needs those things. No security link-up or info sharing. We can start trading on WTO terms tomorrow, bend over and ask Trump what sort of deal he can do for us. Watch the money and the mobile pour out of the country. Watch the collapse of the NHS and care sector due to huge staff shortages, watch food rot in the fields without anybody to pick it. The EU aren't stopping us doing any of these things, if it's the will of the people then why the hell aren't we just getting on with it?

[shurlock]

I like this opinion peace quite long but spot on for me it certainly could describe a few posters on this thread....

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/16/brexit-paranoid-fantasy-fintan-otoole

 

That’s an understatement

[Cabbage_Face]

Extraordinary, you can leave tomorrow if you want, the EU aren't stopping anybody from leaving.

 

Pay the money we owe, agree on how much for future payments we owe for projects/pensions we've already committed to and off we go. Hard border in Ireland, no frictionless free trade, 1m expats cast adrift and stateless in the EU, no idea what we would do with the EU citizens that happen to be here, probably keep the economically worthwhile ones and put the rest on trains. No agreement or deal on euratom, medicine testing, aviation but who needs those things. No security link-up or info sharing. We can start trading on WTO terms tomorrow, bend over and ask Trump what sort of deal he can do for us. Watch the money and the mobile pour out of the country. Watch the collapse of the NHS and care sector due to huge staff shortages, watch food rot in the fields without anybody to pick it. The EU aren't stopping us doing any of these things, if it's the will of the people then why the hell aren't we just getting on with it?

 

 

Nice to know Donald Tusk posts on here.

[Sheaf Saint]

Extraordinary, you can leave tomorrow if you want, the EU aren't stopping anybody from leaving.

 

Pay the money we owe, agree on how much for future payments we owe for projects/pensions we've already committed to and off we go. Hard border in Ireland, no frictionless free trade, 1m expats cast adrift and stateless in the EU, no idea what we would do with the EU citizens that happen to be here, probably keep the economically worthwhile ones and put the rest on trains. No agreement or deal on euratom, medicine testing, aviation but who needs those things. No security link-up or info sharing. We can start trading on WTO terms tomorrow, bend over and ask Trump what sort of deal he can do for us. Watch the money and the mobile pour out of the country. Watch the collapse of the NHS and care sector due to huge staff shortages, watch food rot in the fields without anybody to pick it. The EU aren't stopping us doing any of these things, if it's the will of the people then why the hell aren't we just getting on with it?

 

Quite. And the leavers have the gall to accuse remainers of promulgating 'project fear.' Amazing hypocrisy.

[Sheaf Saint]

https://twitter.com/james_cj_w/status/1063387190112206849

 

 

It’s *almost* as if the best way to deal with being a member of an imperfect organisation is to stay a member, and change it from the inside ...

 

Who’d’ve thought?

[ecuk268]

Perhaps May should write "My Brexit Deal is Brilliant" on the side of a big red bus.

 

That seems a good way of convincing the "intellectually challenged".

[Lord Duckhunter]

Extraordinary, you can leave tomorrow if you want,

 

We can start trading on WTO terms tomorrow,

 

 

What a load of old pony.

 

 

 

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[shurlock]

What a load of old pony.

 

 

 

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I know pal. Trading on WTO term is more complicated than Brexiteers claim.

[ecuk268]

What a load of old pony.

 

 

 

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Yeah, good idea.

 

Under WTO rules, car parts would incur a 10% tariff every time they cross an EU-UK border. So, in the case of the BMW Minis, the crankshaft crosses the channel 3 times so thats over 30% added to the cost.

 

Or the Bentley bumper which is made in Eastern Europe, sent to Crewe for further work then back to Germany for finishing and then back to the UK for fitting. Then there's the fact that these factories carry no stock. They operate on a "just in time" basis so cannot afford any delays at border crossings.

 

Those are just 2 examples. Other car parts cross the channel many more times.

[Guided Missile]

Under WTO rules, car parts would incur a 10% tariff every time they cross an EU-UK border. So, in the case of the BMW Minis, the crankshaft crosses the channel 3 times so thats over 30% added to the cost.

 

Or the Bentley bumper which is made in Eastern Europe, sent to Crewe for further work then back to Germany for finishing and then back to the UK for fitting. Then there's the fact that these factories carry no stock. They operate on a "just in time" basis so cannot afford any delays at border crossings.

 

Those are just 2 examples. Other car parts cross the channel many more times.

You do realise that WTO rules wouldn't force the UK to impose 10% tariffs on car parts? 10% is the maximum tariff. The UK could waive tariffs altogether. WTO tariffs average about 2.6% on all non-agricultural goods.

 

Personally I hope the UK waives tariffs altogether and cuts corporation tax to about 16%. That would p!$$ on the EU's protectionist bonfire...

[Lord Duckhunter]

Yeah, good idea.

 

Under WTO rules, car parts would incur a 10% tariff every time they cross an EU-UK border. So, in the case of the BMW Minis, the crankshaft crosses the channel 3 times so thats over 30% added to the cost.

 

Or the Bentley bumper which is made in Eastern Europe, sent to Crewe for further work then back to Germany for finishing and then back to the UK for fitting. Then there's the fact that these factories carry no stock. They operate on a "just in time" basis so cannot afford any delays at border crossings.

 

Those are just 2 examples. Other car parts cross the channel many more times.

 

For a bloke deriding people for being intellectually challenged, you do seem incapable of understand my reply. Personally, I’d lay off the intelligence insults if I was you.

 

 

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[ecuk268]

You do realise that WTO rules wouldn't force the UK to impose 10% tariffs on car parts? 10% is the maximum tariff. The UK could waive tariffs altogether. WTO tariffs average about 2.6% on all non-agricultural goods.

 

Personally I hope the UK waives tariffs altogether and cuts corporation tax to about 16%. That would p!$$ on the EU's protectionist bonfire...

 

So fresh produce could come in tariff free but the EU could maintain their tariffs on imports.

 

I'm sure the UK farmers would love that.

[Sheaf Saint]

New Brexit Secretary - Steve Barclay (no, me neither.)

 

New DWP secretary - Amber Rudd.

 

May really is having to scrape the barrel now isn't she.

[Batman]

A bit more complicated than that pal. Your mate Trump has called NATO obsolete.

 

Never mind the current US administration has led to uncertainty about its engagement and commitment in the world or that it’s positon on a number of issues is at odds with Europe and the UK or that there are security issues such as migration crisis which are local in nature.

 

Even NATO leaders have called on Europe to grow up and be willing to provide all the capabilities to handle a regional crisis without American engagement if the US does not wish to engage.

 

The idea of an EU force is laughable

Only the French and the U.K. have the equipment, expertise and will to lead it.

 

Look at the last time that happened without the USA!

[Batman]

Ah, an EU Army. Agree there have been plenty of lies about this in the past, but if we look at it objectively - A strong UK within the EU would likely have had a very prominent role in this, now we will have a large coordinated military force on our doorstep that we are not a part of. Disquieting.

 

Laughable really

[Wes Tender]

Perhaps May should write "My Brexit Deal is Brilliant" on the side of a big red bus.

 

That seems a good way of convincing the "intellectually challenged".

 

So you would find it easy to comprehend then?

[Guided Missile]

So fresh produce could come in tariff free but the EU could maintain their tariffs on imports.

 

I'm sure the UK farmers would love that.

Slap a 25% tariff on German cars. I'm sure the German car manufacturers would love that.

 

You post as if the EU are buying shed loads of goods from us. You do realise we have a trade deficit of over £70 BILLION with the EU and as such, hold all the cards, when it comes to tariffs. i.e. protectionism will hurt them more than us.

 

I can understand you not realising the strength of our position, in regard to trade with the EU. Theresa May obviously didn't...

[shurlock]

The idea of an EU force is laughable

Only the French and the U.K. have the equipment, expertise and will to lead it.

 

Look at the last time that happened without the USA!

 

Yes exactly pal. That's why its a distant, if not abstract aspiration and the little kippers are needlessly wetting their union jack panties. EU countries could start by getting joint procurement in order.

[Batman]

Yes exactly pal. That's why its a distant, if not abstract aspiration and the little kippers are needlessly wetting their union jack panties. EU countries could start by getting joint procurement in order.

 

Oh, the EU will be pressing ahead with it.

Don’t worry about that.

 

It will be as useful as tits on a fish for anything meaningful

[shurlock]

Slap a 25% tariff on German cars. I'm sure the German car manufacturers would love that.

 

You post as if the EU are buying shed loads of goods from us. You do realise we have a trade deficit of over £70 BILLION with the EU and as such, hold all the cards, when it comes to tariffs. i.e. protectionism will hurt them more than us.

 

I can understand you not realising the strength of our position, in regard to trade with the EU. Theresa May obviously didn't...

 

I dont know why May didn't call up a failed local businessman to lead negotiations.

 

The trade deficit argument is and has always been a zombie idea: UK exports to the EU are three times more important to the UK’s economy than vice versa (7.5% of GDP vs. 2.5%). The EU holds the cards.

 

If it was a credible argument or a point of leverage, don't worry little fella it would have been used

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Sorry to interrupt this debate - but is the answer not bleeding obvious now.

 

There are 3 options:

- May's plan (which works within the EU framework)

- Hard Brexit

- No Brexit

 

Considering that the first two won't get through parliament irrespective of the party or leader that puts it's forward, surely all that can happen now is a vote of the 3 options to the people?

[shurlock]

Liam Fox: ' ......ultimately I hope that across parliament we will recognise that a deal is better than no deal'.

 

I had to read that twice just in case

[shurlock]

Sorry to interrupt this debate - but is the answer not bleeding obvious now.

 

There are 3 options:

- May's plan (which works within the EU framework)

- Hard Brexit

- No Brexit

 

Considering that the first two won't get through parliament irrespective of the party or leader that puts it's forward, surely all that can happen now is a vote of the 3 options to the people?

 

I think a people’s vote is much closer today than it was last week. What’s clear is that there is zero parliamentary majority for a hard Brexit. The swivels can rejoin the Conservative party all they like in the hope of a leadership contest. It isn’t going to make a damned difference.

[whelk]

Yes exactly pal. That's why its a distant, if not abstract aspiration and the little kippers are needlessly wetting their union jack panties. EU countries could start by getting joint procurement in order.

 

‘‘Tis funny how excitable many get at the mention of an EU army.

News full of vox pops - stating in thick northern accents that they want various outcomes.

Tiring of it all already. More interesting is how mad everyone is getting.

[whelk]

Sorry to interrupt this debate - but is the answer not bleeding obvious now.

 

There are 3 options:

- May's plan (which works within the EU framework)

- Hard Brexit

- No Brexit

 

Considering that the first two won't get through parliament irrespective of the party or leader that puts it's forward, surely all that can happen now is a vote of the 3 options to the people?

 

Debate?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Sorry to interrupt this debate - but is the answer not bleeding obvious now.

 

There are 3 options:

- May's plan (which works within the EU framework)

- Hard Brexit

- No Brexit

 

Considering that the first two won't get through parliament irrespective of the party or leader that puts it's forward, surely all that can happen now is a vote of the 3 options to the people?

 

The country rejected one of those already, but the losers wouldn’t accept the result. What makes you think they will next time?

 

 

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[Unbelievable Jeff]

I’m wondering - what was the point of any politicians working on anything over the last 2 years? The only option has been a hard Brexit, via the date, as no hard Brexit, or soft Brexit was ever going to get through parliament…so I’m wondering, what are people so up in arms about with Theresa? It makes no difference whether or was handled well or badly, the result will always have been the same.

[aintforever]

Sorry to interrupt this debate - but is the answer not bleeding obvious now.

 

There are 3 options:

- May's plan (which works within the EU framework)

- Hard Brexit

- No Brexit

 

Considering that the first two won't get through parliament irrespective of the party or leader that puts it's forward, surely all that can happen now is a vote of the 3 options to the people?

 

I guess one option if May’s deal doesn’t get through would be to amend the deal and go back to Europe with a second draft saying it’s this or we leave with no deal. Not sure there is anything that the EU would agree with that would come close to getting through parliament though.