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Guided Missile

By Guided Missile,
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Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum  

217 members have voted

  1. 1. Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted

 

the EU - the organisation responsible for maintaining the longest sustained period of peace in Europe in recorded history

 

Apart from the titchy little skirmish in the Balkans following the break up of the old Yugoslavia. Not really worthy of consideration in this context, is it?

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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted
Apart from the titchy little skirmish in the Balkans following the break up of the old Yugoslavia. Not really worthy of consideration in this context, is it?

 

Maybe Les you’ve failed to consider that there have been no wars precisely because of the EU’s success in maintaining peace and stability.

 

Never mind that EU enlargement, on balance, has been a success when it could have been very easy for transitional countries to backslide into repression and authoritarianism.

 

But then I suspect your grasp of European history is as weak as your grasp of economics.

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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted
Apart from the titchy little skirmish in the Balkans following the break up of the old Yugoslavia. Not really worthy of consideration in this context, is it?

Since the EU was formed in 1957 there have been many armed conflicts on the continent of Europe, including the civil wars in the former Yugoslavia. The claim for 'sustained peace', when attributed to the EU, is applied to to conflicts between EU member states - historically these have predominantly involved the UK, France, and Germany.

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Plastic

Plastic

Posted
Posted
My worst case scenario is that May remains as PM of the Party I support. She has to be the worst PM we have had in modern times

 

Which particular splinter of this hapless rabble of smug Etonians do you support?

 

We are now in a weird hyper-factional reality where even staunch leavers now scream “Your brexit isn’t my brexit!” at each other, while jockeying for position at the post-May trough.

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted

I still think it will go through Parliament.

 

Moderate MPs from both sides scared of a no deal will back it.

 

ERG headbangers are ultimately bottle-jobs whose default position is complaining and objecting rather than actually taking responsibility and making decisions that have consequences. They will be sacred of Corbyn or no Brexit. Ultimately they will take getting out in any form and then settle in for the next thirty years of blaming the EU for everything just like the previous thirty years. Win-win for Peter Bone and gang.

 

Corbyn ultimately will get tied up by the fact that May's deal isn't that far away from what Starmer and co have been asking for. Rump Labour MPs in leave constituencies will also bottle it (despite all the evidence that it won't impact their majorities) and enough will row in behind the deal.

 

Much as I'd like to see the government collapse for the LOLs I just can't see it happening - most Tories, when it comes to it, will not rock the boat and self-destruct plus enough Labour MPs are pathetic enough to back it, plus those like swivel eyed Hoey actually believe in it anyway. And not letting the SNP and especially the DUP wag the dog will also play a part too.

 

Hold your noses, lads.

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doddisalegend

doddisalegend

Posted
Posted

Would have been a lot easier if the Uk had banged a draft leave proposal with the EU first and then asked the Uk public to vote on that.

 

We where basically asked to vote on a whole load of lies, best guesses and fantasies, from both sides of the argument, with no actual facts to go on. No surprise the whole thing is mess.

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
Since the EU was formed in 1957 there have been many armed conflicts on the continent of Europe, including the civil wars in the former Yugoslavia. The claim for 'sustained peace', when attributed to the EU, is applied to to conflicts between EU member states - historically these have predominantly involved the UK, France, and Germany.

 

Ah, so no wars in Europe only meant wars between Germany, France, the UK and Italy, Why didn't he say so? No wars in Europe meant wars only between the earliest EU member states, nothing to do with non-EU members in Europe at the time. Hail peace in Europe as a result of the EU!

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
Maybe Les you’ve failed to consider that there have been no wars precisely because of the EU’s success in maintaining peace and stability.

 

Never mind that EU enlargement, on balance, has been a success when it could have been very easy for transitional countries to backslide into repression and authoritarianism.

 

But then I suspect your grasp of European history is as weak as your grasp of economics.

 

If you really wish to airbrush the war in the Balkan states post the break up of the former Yugoslavia from history, then it is patently you who have a poor grasp of European history.

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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted (edited)
If you really wish to airbrush the war in the Balkan states post the break up of the former Yugoslavia from history, then it is patently you who have a poor grasp of European history.

 

I’m not airbrushing anything - remind me when Yugoslavia was part of the EEC or the EU Les.

Edited by shurlock
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aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted
Since the EU was formed in 1957 there have been many armed conflicts on the continent of Europe, including the civil wars in the former Yugoslavia. The claim for 'sustained peace', when attributed to the EU, is applied to to conflicts between EU member states - historically these have predominantly involved the UK, France, and Germany.

 

Isn't that more to do with NATO or the UN?

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
I’m not airbrushing anything - remind me when Yugoslavia was part of the EEC or the EU Les.

 

Did I suggest that Yugoslavia or the former member states of it were part of the EU when war broke out there? No, I didn't. Were they part of Europe geographically at the time and still remain part of Europe now? Yes. Do you dispute that? Do you dispute that the conflict be classified as a war? Then unless your powers of reasoning are not yet fully wakened this morning, there actually was a war in Europe that took place after the formation of the EEC/EU, wasn't there? Trying to restrict that peace in Europe to Germany, the UK, France and Italy is frankly pathetic, but typical of the type of stilted argument you would advance.

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Verbal

Verbal

Posted
Posted
Did I suggest that Yugoslavia or the former member states of it were part of the EU when war broke out there? No, I didn't. Were they part of Europe geographically at the time and still remain part of Europe now? Yes. Do you dispute that? Do you dispute that the conflict be classified as a war? Then unless your powers of reasoning are not yet fully wakened this morning, there actually was a war in Europe that took place after the formation of the EEC/EU, wasn't there? Trying to restrict that peace in Europe to Germany, the UK, France and Italy is frankly pathetic, but typical of the type of stilted argument you would advance.

 

Christ this is some huge pile of stupid.

 

Talking of which, the government's chief negotiator of the Brexit agreement has resigned over...the agreement.

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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted (edited)
Did I suggest that Yugoslavia or the former member states of it were part of the EU when war broke out there? No, I didn't. Were they part of Europe geographically at the time and still remain part of Europe now? Yes. Do you dispute that? Do you dispute that the conflict be classified as a war? Then unless your powers of reasoning are not yet fully wakened this morning, there actually was a war in Europe that took place after the formation of the EEC/EU, wasn't there? Trying to restrict that peace in Europe to Germany, the UK, France and Italy is frankly pathetic, but typical of the type of stilted argument you would advance.

 

No Les it’s simply on the historical record that Western and Eastern Europe was divided by the Cold War and communist states operated in their own oppressive orbit beyond the influence of the EEC/EU.

 

The subsequent enlargement of the EU to the former Eastern Bloc, on the other hand, has been a success given the region’s bloody history.

 

Part of that success has depended on significant agricultural and structural funds spending in these countries which has allowed them to catch up to Western European living standards while spurring economic and institutional reform.

 

Most people would say that financial and strategic bargain was well worth it to heal a fractured Continent post the Cold War (never mind that it ultimately means a larger domestic market for UK businesses).

 

Needless to say swivels like you are clamouring to cut off the UK’s budget contribution to the EU; yet have the hypocrisy and ignorance to claim that the EU hasn’t done more or should be doing more for peace and stability. Good lad.

Edited by shurlock
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Window Cleaner

Window Cleaner

Posted
Posted
Yep the Brexiteers. They own this mess.

 

If only they'd let us long term European Expats vote none of this would have happened.

Hope they correct that if there's another referendum. It affects us more than most and yet we had no say.

Obviously for just UK issues it's nothing to do with us as a rule but in European Issues it is.

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Sheaf Saint

Sheaf Saint

Posted
Posted
"I don't want a Brexit deal" - says man whose sole job is to get a Brexit deal...

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/dominic-raab-is-privately-pushing-for-no-deal-brexit-2018-11

 

Problems with your comprehension?

 

He didn't say that he didn't want a Brexit deal, did he? Read it again.

 

I don't need to read it again; I read between the lines the first time.

 

Let's try a different headline then. How about...

 

"Man whose job it was to negotiate withdrawal agreement resigns from government, because he can't support the terms of the withdrawal agreement that HE NEGOTIATED".

 

How much further proof do you need that the whole negotiation was a sham, undertaken in bad faith with no intention of accepting any deal offered?

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
No Les it’s simply on the historical record that Western and Eastern Europe was divided by the Cold War and communist states operated in their own oppressive orbit beyond the influence of the EEC/EU.

 

The subsequent enlargement of the EU to the former Eastern Bloc, on the other hand, has been a success given the region’s bloody history.

 

Part of that success has depended on significant agricultural and structural funds spending in these countries which has allowed them to catch up to Western European living standards while spurring economic and institutional reform.

 

Most people would say that financial and strategic bargain was well worth it to heal a fractured Continent post the Cold War (never mind that it ultimately means a larger domestic market for UK businesses).

 

Needless to say swivels like you are clamouring to cut off the UK’s budget contribution to the EU; yet have the hypocrisy and ignorance to claim that the EU hasn’t done more or should be doing more for peace and stability. Good lad.

 

Typical of tour usual idiotic obfuscation and waffle. You totally ignore answering my questions as to whether the conflict in the Balkans constituted a war, and whether those countries were geographically part of Europe.

 

Had you done so honestly, then of course you would be affirming that there had indeed been a war in Europe since the formation of the EEC/EU, so that the claim that peace had been preserved in Europe as a result of the EEC/EU was flawed.

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doddisalegend

doddisalegend

Posted
Posted
66df6fcfefaa521432cd4254df8ce57d.jpg

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

 

Are we leaving? Yes we are so it does honour the deal of the referendum which was stay or leave nothing else.

 

The referendum never specified what leaving would look like as a result it was flawed from the beginning.

 

The way this should have been done is the deal should have been worked out first. Then once we all knew what we where getting the public should have voted on it.

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Window Cleaner

Window Cleaner

Posted
Posted
More please. She has to be removed for the good of the country.

 

Don't see it making much difference really. They're all far too inexperienced to obtain a Brexit with any reasonable outcome anyway. The EU are just following their rules, there are 2 options really, in or out. If it's out then it has to be done cleanly and accept the consequences.

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
So far she’s lost 2 cabinet ministers & 3 junior ministers in one day and it’s only 10:30.

 

4 Leavers & 1 Remainer according to Sky

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

It's brilliant news. Please fall on your sword, May. You are damaged beyond repair as a Party leader and PM. Your credibility is zero.

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Sheaf Saint

Sheaf Saint

Posted
Posted
Typical of tour usual idiotic obfuscation and waffle. You totally ignore answering my questions as to whether the conflict in the Balkans constituted a war, and whether those countries were geographically part of Europe.

 

Had you done so honestly, then of course you would be affirming that there had indeed been a war in Europe since the formation of the EEC/EU, so that the claim that peace had been preserved in Europe as a result of the EEC/EU was flawed.

 

And you're just splitting hairs.

 

And you seem to be blissfully ignoring the period from when the EU was first formed (1957) to when the Balkans conflict started (1991), and the fact that the Balkans conflict ended in 2001, and that no member states of the EU have been at war with each other during that entire period.

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aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted
And you're just splitting hairs.

 

And you seem to be blissfully ignoring the period from when the EU was first formed (1957) to when the Balkans conflict started (1991), and the fact that the Balkans conflict ended in 2001, and that no member states of the EU have been at war with each other during that entire period.

 

When was the last time two major developed countries went to war anywhere in the World?

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Window Cleaner

Window Cleaner

Posted
Posted
She’s trying to scare Leavers to vote for her turd.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Oh I think they've every reason to be scared actually. I really don't see any other outcome, this deal or no brexit because there is no way that the UK will just slam the door. May lost that option with her ill-advised General Election.

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