Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[shurlock]

if you google Juncker surely you get the most recent results about him?

 

I'm saying that the BBC article is the first link featured. No more, no less.

[OldNick]

I'm saying that the BBC article is the first link featured. No more, no less.

Oh ok it j just read you said first result when you google. I found it great and would rather watch that arrogant unelected person looking foolish. The same as I would Blatter.

[shurlock]

Oh ok it j just read you said first result when you google. I found it great and would rather watch that arrogant unelected person looking foolish. The same as I would Blatter.

 

As opposed to the hate-filled s**t spewed by Trump. Glad you've got your priorities straight pal.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Literally the first result when you google Jean Claude Juncker. But hey it's scandalous that Trump's threat to NATO, a charged visit to the UK, the publication of a critical white paper are all considered more newsworthy pal.

 

Not one mention of it on the BBC headlines - funny that. The President of the European Commission can barely stand up after crucial NATO talks and the BBC reports it but does not publicise it. Would a plastered Boris or Nigel Farage have made their headline news page?

[shurlock]

Not one mention of it on the BBC headlines - funny that. The President of the European Commission can barely stand up after crucial NATO talks and the BBC reports it but does not publicise it. Would a plastered Boris or Nigel Farage have made their headline news page?

 

I thought no BBC story existed a few mins ago

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

the burocrats will rally behind him and say it was a bad prawn or something.

 

Here we go...Sciatica attack apparently!

 

https://euobserver.com/tickers/142375

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I thought no BBC story existed a few mins ago

 

I never saw it on the main news. Just buried in the website.

[OldNick]

As opposed to the hate-filled s**t spewed by Trump. Glad you've got your priorities straight pal.

I don't know quite what this 'Pal' is all about in a lot of your posts. I would have thought you may have shown a bit of restraint after you made a mistake in your post saying Google instead of BBC news.

As for Trump he will shake the tree and get results. He is correct that the US taxpayer is paying a good amount into protect Germany. They can relax and enjoy not spending quite so much on defence and give it away to other projects knowing the US is spending to protect.Of course it is to the US benefit but like the Brexitters have always felt that we pay to keep French farmers in a life that is uneconomical

[buctootim]

I don't know quite what this 'Pal' is all about in a lot of your posts. I would have thought you may have shown a bit of restraint after you made a mistake in your post saying Google instead of BBC news.

As for Trump he will shake the tree and get results. He is correct that the US taxpayer is paying a good amount into protect Germany. They can relax and enjoy not spending quite so much on defence and give it away to other projects knowing the US is spending to protect.Of course it is to the US benefit but like the Brexitters have always felt that we pay to keep French farmers in a life that is uneconomical

 

The deal has always been since WW2 'you get to be the leader of the West because you are writing the cheques'. If the US guarantee of European safety no longer applies then they don't get to be leader.

 

The French farmers is just another Brexit red herring. It was Britain who led reform of the Common Agricultural Policy and moved it away from volume of production subsidies to a stewardship payment based on number of acres / hectares farmed. Guess what? French farmers get exactly the same level of subsidy per hectare as the British, its just that because France is bigger and has twice the amount of agricultural land then the French get more in total. If you want to blame someone, blame British politicians.

[shurlock]

I don't know quite what this 'Pal' is all about in a lot of your posts. I would have thought you may have shown a bit of restraint after you made a mistake in your post saying Google instead of BBC news.

As for Trump he will shake the tree and get results. He is correct that the US taxpayer is paying a good amount into protect Germany. They can relax and enjoy not spending quite so much on defence and give it away to other projects knowing the US is spending to protect.Of course it is to the US benefit but like the Brexitters have always felt that we pay to keep French farmers in a life that is uneconomical

 

What mistake. When you google Juncker, literally the first link is to a bbc story. Simple.

[shurlock]

The deal has always been since WW2 'you get to be the leader of the West because you are writing the cheques'. If the US guarantee of European safety no longer applies then they don't get to be leader.

 

The French farmers is just another Brexit red herring. It was Britain who led reform of the Common Agricultural Policy and moved it away from volume of production subsidies to a stewardship payment based on number of acres / hectares farmed. Guess what? French farmers get exactly the same level of subsidy per hectare as the British, its just that because France is bigger and has twice the amount of agricultural land then the French get more in total. If you want to blame someone, blame British politicians.

 

Exactly. It's a curious omission: the US puts more in than others, in return, it enjoys disproportionate influence.That's the quid pro quo. Should others pay a bit more? Yes and Trump is simply reiterating the policy and position of previous presidents rather than doing anything new. Either way, its an arrangement that has benefited all parties - never mind there are obvious historical reasons why spending by states such as Germany is relatively low.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

The deal has always been since WW2 'you get to be the leader of the West because you are writing the cheques'. If the US guarantee of European safety no longer applies then they don't get to be leader.

 

The French farmers is just another Brexit red herring. It was Britain who led reform of the Common Agricultural Policy and moved it away from volume of production subsidies to a stewardship payment based on number of acres / hectares farmed. Guess what? French farmers get exactly the same level of subsidy per hectare as the British, its just that because France is bigger and has twice the amount of agricultural land then the French get more in total. If you want to blame someone, blame British politicians.

 

I think you will find that the French have always fiercely resisted any meaningful reform of farm subsidies. A French politician cannot get elected by doing so because of the strength of the farming vote over there. Their inheritance laws mean that a lot of French have a stake on the land.

Edited 13 July, 2018 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[buctootim]

I think you will find that the French have always fiercely resisted any meaningful reform of farm subsidies. A French politician cannot get elected by doing so because of the strength of the farming vote over there. Their inheritance laws mean that a lot of French have a stake on the land.

 

They have - but it doesn't change the fact that the CAP has been radically reformed several times despite that opposition. If you want to see inefficiency look no further than British hill farmers, 70% of whose income is from subsidy. It all depends if you want to see the tourist landscapes of the Lake District, Brecon Beacons, Scottish Highlands etc disappear and have them covered by trees if the sheep are no longer there.

[shurlock]

I think you will find that the French have always fiercely resisted any meaningful reform of farm subsidies. A French politician cannot get elected by doing so because of the strength of the farming vote over there. Their inheritance laws mean that a lot of French have a stake on the land.

 

Sergei - the % of the EU budget going to agriculture has fallen from 70% in 1986 to 30% in recent years (rural development adds a few more percentage points, though most of this is directed towards economic diversification and is a challenge to vested interests). All this is despite the fact that the 13 countries from Eastern Europe that have joined the EU since 2000 have significant farming sectors, especially Romania and Bulgaria. Spending has fallen, even before you take into account reforms to make the CAP greener, more efficient and transparent. There will continue to be resistance to change and perhaps we'd all like to see spending fall further; but to suggest nothing meaningful has happened is jihadist horses**t (pun intended).

 

If you're going to bat for the loons pal, at least, try not to be so intellectually lazy and illinformed.

Edited 13 July, 2018 by shurlock

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Sergei - the % of the EU budget going to agriculture has fallen from 70% in 1986 to 30% in recent years (rural development adds a few more percentage points, though most of this is directed towards economic diversification and is a challenge to vested interests). All this is despite the fact that the 13 countries from Eastern Europe that have joined the EU since 2000 have significant farming sectors, especially Romania and Bulgaria. Spending has fallen, even before you take into account reforms to make the CAP greener, more efficient and transparent. There will continue to be resistance to change and perhaps we'd all like to see spending fall further; but to suggest nothing meaningful has happened is jihadist horses**t (pun intended).

 

If you're going to bat for the loons pal, at least, try not to be so intellectually lazy and illinformed.

 

Really? so how much was the EU budget in 1986 and how much was the EU budget in 2016? Would that give your numbers more context?

 

It is well recognised how much UK farmers owe French farmers for resisting radical reform of CAP. It will be a major issue when we leave, particularly if we do a deal with the US because some have indicated that we will sell out our farmers for a trade deal.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

They have - but it doesn't change the fact that the CAP has been radically reformed several times despite that opposition. If you want to see inefficiency look no further than British hill farmers, 70% of whose income is from subsidy. It all depends if you want to see the tourist landscapes of the Lake District, Brecon Beacons, Scottish Highlands etc disappear and have them covered by trees if the sheep are no longer there.

 

I agree with you I don't want to see the end of the Single Farm Payment for that reason but don't tell me that farmers don't need to thank the French farmers for shaping the CAP.

[buctootim]

I agree with you I don't want to see the end of the Single Farm Payment for that reason but don't tell me that farmers don't need to thank the French farmers for shaping the CAP.

 

The CAP attempts to balance the competing priorities of food security for Europe, the environment and biodiversity, employment, animal welfare, rural development and tourism value. There are many ways to structure the CAP depending on the weight given to each priority. Its an area of valid debate. What irks me is the simplistic and dishonest approach of some that its all the French farmers fault.

 

In farming efficiency means huge factory farms with subsidies going to massive agri-businesses. It means keeping animals indoors in confined spaces where they cant waste energy by moving. It means massive prairie style arable crop and silage fields, aesthetically ugly with no dry stone walls or hedges. The irony is that this is the antithesis of what many Brexiteers say they want - a return to the idyllic England of the 1950s.

[OldNick]

The CAP attempts to balance the competing priorities of food security for Europe, the environment and biodiversity, employment, animal welfare, rural development and tourism value. There are many ways to structure the CAP depending on the weight given to each priority. Its an area of valid debate. What irks me is the simplistic and dishonest approach of some that its all the French farmers fault.

 

In farming efficiency means huge factory farms with subsidies going to massive agri-businesses. It means keeping animals indoors in confined spaces where they cant waste energy by moving. It means massive prairie style arable crop and silage fields, aesthetically ugly with no dry stone walls or hedges. The irony is that this is the antithesis of what many Brexiteers say they want - a return to the idyllic England of the 1950s.

How much food is destroyed to keep the said prices??

French farmers hold a massive sway over the French government, there is no getting over that. They are very militant and get their way. Good for them. Farmers are not getting it so easy here now, and it was surprising that so many of them voted out.

[buctootim]

Efficient pig farming in china

 

'Barn' raised chickens in Britain

 

Britain with farm subsidy

 

Britain without farm subsidy

Edited 13 July, 2018 by buctootim

[buctootim]

How much food is destroyed to keep the said prices??

French farmers hold a massive sway over the French government, there is no getting over that. They are very militant and get their way. Good for them. Farmers are not getting it so easy here now, and it was surprising that so many of them voted out.

 

Simply not true. Food fit for consumption is not destroyed, its not the 1980s with its production led subsidies anymore. 55% of British farmers income comes from the CAP and less than 40% from actually selling produce. You think that isnt enough? you think it will be more after Brexit?

[OldNick]

Efficient pig farming in china

 

'Barn' raised chickens in Britain

So what is the answer? Do you think we could get the food supply by each having a farm to wander around? If you want to start the vegetarian thing then so be it, but sadly a pig in a cage being produced for food is the way it is. Letting it in a field enjoying itself and then slaughtering is just as bad I would suggest

[OldNick]

Simply not true. Food fit for consumption is not destroyed, its not the 1980s with its production led subsidies anymore. 55% of British farmers income comes from the CAP and less than 40% from actually selling produce. You think that isnt enough? you think it will be more after Brexit?

i didn't vote for Brexit so I was happy with the status quo, except I do not like the Eurocrats who are unelected and unaccountable feeding out of the trough

[shurlock]

i didn't vote for Brexit so I was happy with the status quo, except I do not like the Eurocrats who are unelected and unaccountable feeding out of the trough

 

Like Whitehall civil servants?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

The CAP attempts to balance the competing priorities of food security for Europe, the environment and biodiversity, employment, animal welfare, rural development and tourism value. There are many ways to structure the CAP depending on the weight given to each priority. Its an area of valid debate. What irks me is the simplistic and dishonest approach of some that its all the French farmers fault.

 

In farming efficiency means huge factory farms with subsidies going to massive agri-businesses. It means keeping animals indoors in confined spaces where they cant waste energy by moving. It means massive prairie style arable crop and silage fields, aesthetically ugly with no dry stone walls or hedges. The irony is that this is the antithesis of what many Brexiteers say they want - a return to the idyllic England of the 1950s.

 

I agree with your sentiments although there is also a balance to be struck between providing cheap food and preserving the countryside's aesthetics. I am afraid you cannot escape the fact that the French farming vote is as high as 15% or so I once read and that has meant that no French PM can ever support significant change to the CAP. That is not dishonest that is a fact.

[buctootim]

Like Whitehall civil servants?

 

Yeah but there are only 375,000 British civil servants. Not like the bloated EU bureaucracy which has 48,000 split between 28 countries

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Simply not true. Food fit for consumption is not destroyed, its not the 1980s with its production led subsidies anymore. 55% of British farmers income comes from the CAP and less than 40% from actually selling produce. You think that isnt enough? you think it will be more after Brexit?

 

What will become of the milk powder mountain then? You do actually need to differentiate between different types of farming - how do you get to 55%?

[buctootim]

Do you think we could get the food supply by each having a farm to wander around? sadly a pig in a cage being produced for food is the way it is. Letting it in a field enjoying itself and then slaughtering is just as bad I would suggest

 

there is also a balance to be struck between providing cheap food and preserving the countryside's aesthetics.

 

Animal welfare issues aside if you keep animal indoors you dont need hedges and walls and small fields. So you will also need to employ an army of people scrub clearing in aesthetically sensitive areas, a job the sheep and cattle currently do

[buctootim]

What will become of the milk powder mountain then? You do actually need to differentiate between different types of farming - how do you get to 55%?

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/26/farmers-leader-seeks-government-subsidy-equal-to-support-given-b/

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Animal welfare issues aside if you keep animal indoors you dont need hedges and walls and small fields. So you will also need to employ an army of people scrub clearing in aesthetically sensitive areas, a job the sheep and cattle currently do

 

You don't keep sheep indoors unless they are lambing and apart from a very few 'super dairies' most dairy and beef cattle are outside when there is grass. Pigs and poultry have never roamed. Anyway I agree with your sentiments about preserving the countryside but I am not sure the public will be happy to pay for practices that date back to James Herriot. Our farming industry is actually very well developed because subsidies or no subsidies it has had to be to compete.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/26/farmers-leader-seeks-government-subsidy-equal-to-support-given-b/

 

Still think it is a very difficult figure to reach when some farmers don't receive any subsidy.

[buctootim]

You don't keep sheep indoors unless they are lambing and apart from a very few 'super dairies' most dairy and beef cattle are outside when there is grass. Pigs and poultry have never roamed. Anyway I agree with your sentiments about preserving the countryside but I am not sure the public will be happy to pay for practices that date back to James Herriot. Our farming industry is actually very well developed because subsidies or no subsidies it has had to be to compete.

 

You're missing the point. Sheep are not economically viable without subsidy. Take away the subsidy and there will be no sheep. What you say about cattle is changing very quickly as intensive factory farming increases, currently 20% of cattle are zero grazed and the number of pasture days for most of the rest are being rapidly reduced . Pigs and poultry have always roamed, its only recently they have been brought indoors. Surely you remember the corrugated tin pig shelters which used to cover Hampshire?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/17/uk-has-nearly-800-livestock-mega-farms-investigation-reveals

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/28/free-range-milk-asda-dairy-farming-cows-in-fields-pasture-promise

Edited 13 July, 2018 by buctootim

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You're missing the point. Sheep are not economically viable without subsidy. Take away the subsidy and there will be no sheep. What you say about cattle is changing very quickly as intensive factory farming increases. Pigs and poultry have always roamed, its only recently they have been brought indoors. Surely you remember the corrugated tin pig shelters which used to cover Hampshire?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/17/uk-has-nearly-800-livestock-mega-farms-investigation-reveals

 

 

Pigs never roamed in fields and paddocks. The pigs you show are not roaming they are 'outdoor pigs' that are widespread because you get a higher price for them because they have a higher welfare grade. Like chickens, pigs have always been farm yard animals.

 

You are right that sheep farming would disappear without support and it is sheep farming that has most to lose from us leaving Europe not least because France is our biggest export market for lamb

[buctootim]

Pigs never roamed in fields and paddocks. The pigs you show are not roaming they are 'outdoor pigs' that are widespread because you get a higher price for them because they have a higher welfare grade. Like chickens, pigs have always been farm yard animals.

 

You're simply wrong. Bringing pigs indoors is a recent phenomenom and still nearly half are kept outside.

https://www.pigprogress.net/World-of-Pigs1/Articles/2017/12/United-Kingdom-A-pig-industry-on-the-edge-214053E/

http://www.dalehead.co.uk/fun-facts-pigs-pig-farming.html

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

You are right that sheep farming would disappear without support and it is sheep farming that has most to lose from us leaving Europe not least because France is our biggest export market for lamb

 

That would be really baaaaaaad. Just as well we can provide our own subsidies,support our own farmers. And here’s they key thing, if the general public don’t like supporting farmers or feel we’re paying them too much, or even too little, they can vote the Government out.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

You're simply wrong. Bringing pigs indoors is a recent phenomenom and still nearly half are kept outside.

https://www.pigprogress.net/World-of-Pigs1/Articles/2017/12/United-Kingdom-A-pig-industry-on-the-edge-214053E/

http://www.dalehead.co.uk/fun-facts-pigs-pig-farming.html

 

I am sorry but you seemed to be suggesting that by bringing pigs indoors that has an impact on stone walls and hedgerows numbers. It does not because the pig was always a back yard animal. That is why when farming became more intensive and they were put in small fenced pens in outdoor fields they needed the Arks you pointed out. There are still a lot of pigs outdoors because they are a different welfare standard and you get a better price for them from the supermarkets.

Edited 13 July, 2018 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[buctootim]

I am sorry but you seemed to be suggesting that by bringing pigs indoors that has an impact on stone walls and hedgerows numbers. It does not because the pig was always a back yard animal. That is why when farming became more intensive and they were put in small fenced pens in outdoor fields they needed the Arks you pointed out. There are still a lot of pigs outdoors because they are a different welfare standard and you get a better price for them from the supermarkets.

 

This is just another of your struggles against reality

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

This is just another of your struggles against reality

 

Yes I never thought I would be squandering time on a football forum arguing that the pig is not an animal that roams in fields! The irony is that I run a pig business.

[OldNick]

Yes I never thought I would be squandering time on a football forum arguing that the pig is not an animal that roams in fields! The irony is that I run a pig business.

lol what would you know then?Afterall there are lots of pages on the internet to get down to the hard facts. I think that is one of the best comebacks ever on here.

[shurlock]

Yes I never thought I would be squandering time on a football forum arguing that the pig is not an animal that roams in fields! The irony is that I run a pig business.

 

Based on your experience, how thick is pig****?

[buctootim]

lol what would you know then?Afterall there are lots of pages on the internet to get down to the hard facts. I think that is one of the best comebacks ever on here.

 

He's either lying, wrong or stupid. The irony is that most posters who grew up in Hampshire in the 50s, 60s and 70s remember the fields filled with pigs.

 

"Outdoor pig farming is big in the UK. About 40% of British sows are kept in the fields". Pig Progress https://www.pigprogress.net/World-of-Pigs1/Articles/2017/12/United-Kingdom-A-pig-industry-on-the-edge-214053E/

 

 

There he is. Farmers Weekly Pig Farmer of the Year with definitely not in a field pigs.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/2017-fw-awards-pig-farmer-of-the-year-finalists

 

 

https://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/2017-fw-awards-pig-farmer-of-the-year-finalists

Edited 13 July, 2018 by buctootim

[buctootim]

Yes I never thought I would be squandering time on a football forum arguing that the pig is not an animal that roams in fields! The irony is that I run a pig business.

 

Thats weird because last time you struggled with reality you claimed you worked in the drinks industry.

[shurlock]

Thats weird because last time you struggled with reality you claimed you worked in the drinks industry.

 

[benjii]

Thats weird because last time you struggled with reality you claimed you worked in the drinks industry.

 

[buctootim]

 

 

[shurlock]

 

 

See it’s indoors...

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Thats weird because last time you struggled with reality you claimed you worked in the drinks industry.

 

I have invested in lots of things, some work out others don't but yes I am still involved in the drinks industry.

 

I am genuinely embarrassed that I have wasted so much time arguing about whether a hedge was ever planted to keep a pig in. You?

[buctootim]

See it’s indoors...

 

Its one of those new 'enriched environment' outdoor shelters

[buctootim]

I am genuinely embarrassed that I have wasted so much time arguing about whether a hedge was ever planted to keep a pig in. You?

 

Thats not what you said. you're trying to change your claim now you've been made to look stupid. Your quote is below. I do however agree that it would be better if you didnt waste my time arguing against the bleeding obvious

 

Pigs never roamed in fields and paddocks.

[buctootim]

The irony is that I run a pig business.

 

I have invested in lots of things, some work out others don't but yes I am still involved in the drinks industry.

 

So you dont actually run a pig business either.

[Batman]

Tim, can I ask what your experience is within the industry you are talking about?