Brexit - Post Match Reaction

[shurlock]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the popularity of euro sceptic parties had nothing at all to do with a feeling of euro scepticism within a portion of their voters?

 

Did I say that? Of course euroscepticism is part of the mix but only part of it. But its a general election covering a whole host of issues. Thus Five Star Movement's main policy proposal is the introduction of an unconditional €780 basic income for all. They are not single issue parties which is the impression one gets reading some of the more uninformed posts on here.

[hypochondriac]

Did I say that? Of course euroscepticism is part of the mix but only part of it. But its a general election covering a whole host of issues. Thus Five Star Movement's main policy proposal is the introduction of an unconditional €780 basic income for all. They are not single issue parties which is the impression one gets reading some of the more uninformed posts on here.

 

It's the impression you have got but I don't think anyone has suggested they are single issue parties, simply that there is a significant number of European citizens who want more control over their own affairs and this election result is yet more evidence of this. If France and Germany push for their United States of Europe project against the will of a number of their people, it is going to end in tears.

[shurlock]

It's the impression you have got but I don't think anyone has suggested they are single issue parties, simply that there is a significant number of European citizens who want more control over their own affairs and this election result is yet more evidence of this. If France and Germany push for their United States of Europe project against the will of a number of their people, it is going to end in tears.

 

One poster held up the general election result as direct refutation of the survey evidence Verbal presented, even though its comparing apples and pears. The only way they would be comparable is if the general election was solely about EU -and by extension anti establishment parties were single issue parties, not the multidimensional parties they in reality are. All pretty clear.

 

As for the rest of your post, a lot of suppositions there.

[Verbal]

Exactly. Verbal seemed to be under the impression that i was replying to him in that post which is utterly bizarre as I had already replied to his post and was quoting someone completely unrelated to him. Odd.

 

Not under any 'impression' at all. I just find it depressingly predictable that anecdotes within families are some sort of evidence of anything, except possibly relatives wanting to shut up Brexit jihadist chatter by appearing to agree with it. But the context was certainly evidence versus what your mum/brother/aunt said. It always is with the cult.

 

A couple of things about the Italian result.

 

One, it's clearly driven by the refugee crisis - just a glance at the regional demographics and the north-south split tells you that. While in the UK the panic during the 2016 referendum was about the roughly 6000 Syrian refugees coming in, in Italy (and Greece, even more so), it was about the hundred of thousands.

 

Two, I know this is going to make Brexit jihadists' heads explode, because it involves a complex thought - but Euroscepticism in Italy is different to here, and does not amount to any sort of unified call for withdrawal from the EU. It's also driven by a depressingly genuine undercurrent of fascism, in the birthplace of fascism.

[scotty]

Not under any 'impression' at all. I just find it depressingly predictable that anecdotes within families are some sort of evidence of anything, except possibly relatives wanting to shut up Brexit jihadist chatter by appearing to agree with it. But the context was certainly evidence versus what your mum/brother/aunt said. It always is with the cult.

 

A couple of things about the Italian result.

 

One, it's clearly driven by the refugee crisis - just a glance at the regional demographics and the north-south split tells you that. While in the UK the panic during the 2016 referendum was about the roughly 6000 Syrian refugees coming in, in Italy (and Greece, even more so), it was about the hundred of thousands.

 

Two, I know this is going to make Brexit jihadists' heads explode, because it involves a complex thought - but Euroscepticism in Italy is different to here, and does not amount to any sort of unified call for withdrawal from the EU. It's also driven by a depressingly genuine undercurrent of fascism, in the birthplace of fascism.

 

Nobody has suggested that the Italians would vote to withdraw from the EU.

[Verbal]

Nobody has suggested that the Italians would vote to withdraw from the EU.

 

I know. I was offering a public service by informing the cult of that fact, and snuffing out any jihadist hope that Brexit might have other national imitators (paging Jihadi John).

 

We're very much on our own. Or rather, if you take the entirety of Europe, with May's red lines we'd be with Russia, Belarus, Greenland, the Faroe Islands and Armenia.

 

All other European states are in the EU, want to be in the EU (a long list), participate so heavily in the EU that they're subject to the four freedoms, in the customs union or area, or, even though they're outside the EU, have the Euro as their currency.

 

Such inglorious isolation and bad company may sit well with the character types most closely associated with voting for Brexit - male, white, southern, on a pension (ie majority Saintsweb jihadists) - because isolation is their thing (aside from the impending one-to-one with the grim reaper). But the rest of us will be wending our way back into the EU, thanks all the same.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

Such inglorious isolation and bad company may sit well with the character types most closely associated with voting for Brexit - male, white, southern, on a pension (ie majority Saintsweb jihadists).

 

Ignorance personified.

 

 

 

 

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[hypochondriac]

I know. I was offering a public service by informing the cult of that fact, and snuffing out any jihadist hope that Brexit might have other national imitators (paging Jihadi John).

 

We're very much on our own. Or rather, if you take the entirety of Europe, with May's red lines we'd be with Russia, Belarus, Greenland, the Faroe Islands and Armenia.

 

All other European states are in the EU, want to be in the EU (a long list), participate so heavily in the EU that they're subject to the four freedoms, in the customs union or area, or, even though they're outside the EU, have the Euro as their currency.

 

Such inglorious isolation and bad company may sit well with the character types most closely associated with voting for Brexit - male, white, southern, on a pension (ie majority Saintsweb jihadists) - because isolation is their thing (aside from the impending one-to-one with the grim reaper). But the rest of us will be wending our way back into the EU, thanks all the same.

For someone who's clearly intelligent, you come across incredibly childish on here. I can see why your wife was upset with your presence on here.

[van Hanegem]

“We needed to have as secretary general somebody who really knows how the EU works and has connections in Europe and beyond.” According to Jean-Claude Juncker the German Martin Selmayr is that somebody... It now appears that Selmayr got his new job by promising EU Commissioners more suspension, an office with two assistants and a car and driver after they retire. Of course it's all denied at this moment but in case things turn out to be true I'll bet we get to hear that democracy is still functioning in Brussels...

[Sour Mash]

I know. I was offering a public service by informing the cult of that fact, and snuffing out any jihadist hope that Brexit might have other national imitators (paging Jihadi John).

 

We're very much on our own. Or rather, if you take the entirety of Europe, with May's red lines we'd be with Russia, Belarus, Greenland, the Faroe Islands and Armenia.

 

All other European states are in the EU, want to be in the EU (a long list), participate so heavily in the EU that they're subject to the four freedoms, in the customs union or area, or, even though they're outside the EU, have the Euro as their currency.

 

Such inglorious isolation and bad company may sit well with the character types most closely associated with voting for Brexit - male, white, southern, on a pension (ie majority Saintsweb jihadists) - because isolation is their thing (aside from the impending one-to-one with the grim reaper). But the rest of us will be wending our way back into the EU, thanks all the same.

Someone's having another breakdown

[OldNick]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/theresa-may-only-has-two-brexit-options-left-capitulation-to-the-eu-or-a-second-referendum/ar-BBJVrWA?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp

[buctootim]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/theresa-may-only-has-two-brexit-options-left-capitulation-to-the-eu-or-a-second-referendum/ar-BBJVrWA?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp

 

Its true, and has been so since the referendum. Its been a wasted 20 months - all because of hard brexiteers denial of reality.

[Verbal]

Its true, and has been so since the referendum. Its been a wasted 20 months - all because of hard brexiteers denial of reality.

 

Not forgetting May's 'red lines', most of which have been driven by the jihadists but not all (free movement, for example).

 

This is what jihadists don't comprehend when they bleat about the EU trying the 'bully' May in the negotiations. The red lines themselves determine very precisely what deals with the EU are possible, and they are vanishingly small outside of a Canada-type FTA, which is barely worth the paper it's written on.

 

The delusion is in refusing to accept this. But May will eventually run into the wall of reality, and that's only a few months off now.

[Batman]

Its true, and has been so since the referendum. Its been a wasted 20 months - all because of hard brexiteers denial of reality.

 

I remember when you came off the fence before the referendum. You were certain 'leave' had little to no chance of winning.

 

You keep your certainties coming

[buctootim]

Not forgetting May's 'red lines', most of which have been driven by the jihadists but not all (free movement, for example).

 

This is what jihadists don't comprehend when they bleat about the EU trying the 'bully' May in the negotiations. The red lines themselves determine very precisely what deals with the EU are possible, and they are vanishingly small outside of a Canada-type FTA, which is barely worth the paper it's written on.

 

The delusion is in refusing to accept this. But May will eventually run into the wall of reality, and that's only a few months off now.

 

 

[Weston Super Saint]

 

The delusion is in refusing to accept this. But May will eventually run into the wall of reality, and that's only a few months off now.

 

Not really.

 

Most of us have said all along that the only possible outcome is that we will be leaving and we won't be leaving with any sort of agreement! There are just too many fingers in too many pies for anything else to happen.

 

You, on the other hand, don't seem to accept that this is the reality....

[Lord Duckhunter]

Not really.

 

Most of us have said all along that the only possible outcome is that we will be leaving and we won't be leaving with any sort of agreement! There are just too many fingers in too many pies for anything else to happen.

 

You, on the other hand, don't seem to accept that this is the reality....

 

This nonsense that Brexiters are deluded or live in a fantasy world is pony. They are fully aware of exactly where the land lies. Frasier Nelson hit the nail on the head when asked why the ERG group of MP’s welcomed May’s latest speech,despite it making concessions that were unpalatable to them. His reply was The EU will chuck it out anyway, so they can appear reasonable and conciliatory and still get what they want. The more the EU continue with their hardline approach, the more likely a no deal scenario is. They will bring the Government down over “A” or “the” customs union ( although probably won’t have to as Morgan was backing down at a rapid rate of knots on Sunday, now May has “listened” to her concerns) and the electorate won’t accept free movement, ruling out the SM.

 

The EU gave David Cameron **** all because they knew he’d recommend staying in regardless. A German embassy source confirmed to Andrew Neil that they were also sure that the British people would vote to stay in, so didn’t give him any concessions. They misjudged the British electorate then and they’re misjudging them now. They are the deluded ones living in a fantasy land if they think playing hardball will soften British public opinion, it’ll just harden it and bring more on the side of no deal.

 

 

 

 

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[shurlock]

This nonsense that Brexiters are deluded or live in a fantasy world is pony. They are fully aware of exactly where the land lies. Frasier Nelson hit the nail on the head when asked why the ERG group of MP’s welcomed May’s latest speech,despite it making concessions that were unpalatable to them. His reply was The EU will chuck it out anyway, so they can appear reasonable and conciliatory and still get what they want. The more the EU continue with their hardline approach, the more likely a no deal scenario is. They will bring the Government down over “A” or “the” customs union ( although probably won’t have to as Morgan was backing down at a rapid rate of knots on Sunday, now May has “listened” to her concerns) and the electorate won’t accept free movement, ruling out the SM.

 

The EU gave David Cameron **** all because they knew he’d recommend staying in regardless. A German embassy source confirmed to Andrew Neil that they were also sure that the British people would vote to stay in, so didn’t give him any concessions. They misjudged the British electorate then and they’re misjudging them now. They are the deluded ones living in a fantasy land if they think playing hardball will soften British public opinion, it’ll just harden it and bring more on the side of no deal.

 

 

 

 

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Always someone else's fault.

 

#deluded

Edited 8 March, 2018 by shurlock

[Wes Tender]

I remember when you came off the fence before the referendum. You were certain 'leave' had little to no chance of winning.

 

You keep your certainties coming

Also he was certain enough to agree to a £50 bet that we would end up with a Norway style agreement too

[Verbal]

Also he was certain enough to agree to a £50 bet that we would end up with a Norway style agreement too

 

Jumping gefilte fish - he's back! Calling Shylock to the Lounge...

[buctootim]

Also he was certain enough to agree to a £50 bet that we would end up with a Norway style agreement too

 

Can you really not see the difference between simply listening to what the EU had consistently said and predicting the collective results of tens of millions of people voting independently? Thought not.

 

Pre referendum I relied on what the polls said. Post referendum I relied on what was bleeding obvious. You going to send the cheque now or just post date it?

[shurlock]

Jumping gefilte fish - he's back! Calling Shylock to the Lounge...

 

Give me a plate of drained gefilte fish and a can of pringles crisps and I'd happily listen to Les all day

[ecuk268]

Sad news....

 

https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2018/03/03/uks-youngest-pro-brexit-voter-has-died-aged-seventy-three/

[scotty]

Sad news....

 

https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2018/03/03/uks-youngest-pro-brexit-voter-has-died-aged-seventy-three/

 

There's an excellent point lurking there. If that generation hadn't been so pathetically self serving we could have not bothered with WW2; think how much better off we'd all be now, German efficiency throughout our manufacturing sector, a generation of wealth creating young men wouldn't have got killed in our fit of pique, europe would be united under a single flag, and financially everyone would be in gravy. And people in their seventies have the brass neck to call Churchill a hero.

[shurlock]

There's an excellent point lurking there. If that generation hadn't been so pathetically self serving we could have not bothered with WW2; think how much better off we'd all be now, German efficiency throughout our manufacturing sector, a generation of wealth creating young men wouldn't have got killed in our fit of pique, europe would be united under a single flag, and financially everyone would be in gravy. And people in their seventies have the brass neck to call Churchill a hero.

 

God bless Bert. And to think he was storming the beaches of Normandy in his nappies or thinking about the jerries in his mother's womb. How brave and selfless can you get.

 

The reality pal is that most Brexiteers don’t have the foggiest about WWII. You think the JJs of this world have ever sacrificed anything for the public good

 

By contrast, it's no coincidence that a fair number of those who did live through WWII are actually pretty pro-European. Churchill who you don't have a clue about certainly was.

Edited 9 March, 2018 by shurlock

[Verbal]

There's an excellent point lurking there. If that generation hadn't been so pathetically self serving we could have not bothered with WW2; think how much better off we'd all be now, German efficiency throughout our manufacturing sector, a generation of wealth creating young men wouldn't have got killed in our fit of pique, europe would be united under a single flag, and financially everyone would be in gravy. And people in their seventies have the brass neck to call Churchill a hero.

 

Is this the first ever meta whoosh?

 

Aside from the fact that 'Bert' wouldn't have been born during the second world war, didn't you get any inkling at all that the piece was satirising gormless Brexiteers who drone on about the war and the Germans as if Nazism only really came to an end with the referendum result?

[scotty]

God bless Bert. And to think he was storming the beaches of Normandy in his nappies or thinking about the jerries in his mother's womb. How brave and selfless can you get.

 

The reality pal is that most Brexiteers don’t have the foggiest about WWII. You think the JJs of this world have ever sacrificed anything for the public good

 

By contrast, it's no coincidence that a fair number of those who did live through WWII are actually pretty pro-European. Churchill who you don't have a clue about certainly was.

 

You infer a great deal about what I know and what I don't. The point I was making is that practically every argument put forward on this thread in favour of staying is basically referring to the financial consequences of leaving. Those voting to leave didn't do so on financial grounds in the main, although a few may have believed the twaddle peddled by the hard line leavers.

[scotty]

Is this the first ever meta whoosh?

 

Aside from the fact that 'Bert' wouldn't have been born during the second world war, didn't you get any inkling at all that the piece was satirising gormless Brexiteers who drone on about the war and the Germans as if Nazism only really came to an end with the referendum result?

 

...and yes, I was fully aware of the satirical nature of the piece.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Churchill did indeed call for a United States of Europe in his Zurich speech of Sept 1946. The speech is reproduced here by The Churchill Society. Particularly attention should be paid to the final paragraph.

 

“Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America, and I trust Soviet Russia - for then indeed all would be well - must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine”.

 

 

 

 

 

http:// http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

Edited 9 March, 2018 by Lord Duckhunter

[hypochondriac]

Meanwhile, that bastion of democracy that is the EU shows its true colours once again:

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/a-very-eu-coup-martin-selmayrs-astonishing-power-grab/

[Verbal]

Churchill did indeed call for a United States of Europe in his Zurich speech of Sept 1946. The speech is reproduced here by The Churchill Society. Particularly attention should be paid to the final paragraph.

 

“Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America, and I trust Soviet Russia - for then indeed all would be well - must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine”.

 

 

 

 

 

http:// http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html

 

If you don't like that, you'll like this even less.

 

https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/971368475422789633

[Wes Tender]

Can you really not see the difference between simply listening to what the EU had consistently said and predicting the collective results of tens of millions of people voting independently? Thought not.

 

Pre referendum I relied on what the polls said. Post referendum I relied on what was bleeding obvious. You going to send the cheque now or just post date it?

 

I've only just bothered to look back to see whether you had responded to my post.

 

Are you trying to wriggle out of the bet, with this waffle about why you felt sure that we would go for the Norway option?

 

It very much looks like Canada +++, but I'll wait until it is finalised before I call you out on honouring the bet; if you are honourable, that is.

[buctootim]

I've only just bothered to look back to see whether you had responded to my post.

 

Are you trying to wriggle out of the bet, with this waffle about why you felt sure that we would go for the Norway option?

 

It very much looks like Canada +++, but I'll wait until it is finalised before I call you out on honouring the bet; if you are honourable, that is.

Talking of weasels - you're claiming your vision of Brexit was always Canada+++ - the deal that didnt even exist at the time the bet was made.

[Wes Tender]

Talking of weasels - you're claiming your vision of Brexit was always Canada+++ - the deal that didnt even exist at the time the bet was made.

 

Where did I claim that my vision of Brexit was always Canada+++ ? Show me. Read my post above again. It only says that it looks as if we might end up with a Canada +++ deal, it doesn't in any way infer that I claimed that was what we would get.

 

Please confirm in unambiguous language that you will honour the bet that we agreed on, to pay £50 to a charity if we do not go down the route of a Norway style deal.

[shurlock]

Where did I claim that my vision of Brexit was always Canada+++ ? Show me. Read my post above again. It only says that it looks as if we might end up with a Canada +++ deal, it doesn't in any way infer that I claimed that was what we would get.

 

Please confirm in unambiguous language that you will honour the bet that we agreed on, to pay £50 to a charity if we do not go down the route of a Norway style deal.

 

Got to admit Les, you’re looking good for that £50.

[badgerx16]

So we are looking to base our post-Brexit deal on Canada's FTA with the EU - a country that exports less than 10% of it's output to the EU, and takes about 2% of the EU's exports. That's a rather large jump to the UK's trade figures for the 'plus plus plus' to bridge.

[Guided Missile]

The UK and EU have agreed on a "large part" of the agreement that will lead to the "orderly withdrawal" of the UK. Brexit negotiators Michel Barnier and David Davis said they had agreed terms for a transition period, calling the announcement a "decisive step". The transitional period is set to last from 29 March, 2019 to December 2020, and is intended to smooth the path to a future permanent relationship.

The UK will also be able to negotiate and sign trade deals during the transition period.

[Guided Missile]

Pounds in the sh!tter as well:

 

[shurlock]

JJ get on message - your fellow oddball jihadists are livid over the transition arrangement, accusing the government of rolling over without even having its tummy tickled and now planning to board a boat and throw fish in the direction of the House of Commons.

 

You're a bit slow on the uptake. To repeat one more time: the less happy the jihadists are, the more happy the currency markets are. Portsmouth Uni must be proud of you pal.

[Batman]

The proposed transition deal appears sensible and good news

[scotty]

The proposed transition deal appears sensible and good news

 

.....which is why it will doubtless be roundly condemned on here by both sides.

[saint si]

The UK and EU have agreed on a "large part" of the agreement that will lead to the "orderly withdrawal" of the UK. Brexit negotiators Michel Barnier and David Davis said they had agreed terms for a transition period, calling the announcement a "decisive step". The transitional period is set to last from 29 March, 2019 to December 2020, and is intended to smooth the path to a future permanent relationship.

The UK will also be able to negotiate and sign trade deals during the transition period.

 

i'm sure we'll be able to get loads and loads of great deals done in a little less than 2 years.

[Verbal]

JJ get on message - your fellow oddball jihadists are livid over the transition arrangement, accusing the government of rolling over without even having its tummy tickled and now planning to board a boat and throw fish in the direction of the House of Commons.

 

You're a bit slow on the uptake. To repeat one more time: the less happy the jihadists are, the more happy the currency markets are. Portsmouth Uni must be proud of you pal.

 

You may have got this all wrong Shylock. JJ could be a closet remoaner, celebrating what all the commentators are calling Brexit In Name Only (BINO).

 

The real Jihadists are screaming and hurling faeces - or is that fish? - into the Thames outside Parliament. As mature grown-ups with an intelligent argument are wont to do.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The proposed transition deal appears sensible and good news

 

Agreed. I’ve wanted out since Maastricht, another 21 months isn’t going to matter.

 

I don't know what will happen now. We've got some difficult days ahead. But it really doesn't matter now, because DD has been to the mountaintop. And looked over. And he’s seen the Promised Land and we, as a people, will get to the Promised Land on 31/12/2020

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[hypochondriac]

The proposed transition deal appears sensible and good news

 

Agreed. Not sure why anyone would be overly upset by it.

[Jonnyboy]

Jesus, have we got 3 more years of this bollock-boring thread?

[badgerx16]

Jesus, have we got 3 more years of this bollock-boring thread?

And probably another 5 years after that before we can accurately deduce whether Brexit is a good decision.

[Verbal]

So the Brexit Jihadi backlash is ON.

 

A puddle-worthy trawler full of creatures past their sell-by date - plus some dead fish - rocked the very foundations of the Houses of Parliament.

 

All Remoaners should sit up and take notice. This is going to be easier than we thought.

[John B]

The proposed transition deal appears sensible and good news

 

Not leaving the EU would be even better and sensible news as suggested by most sensible people

[Guided Missile]

Not leaving the EU would be even better and sensible news as suggested by most sensible people

By "sensible people" you mean people that don't give a rat's arse about democracy...

 

Suck it up, buttercup. You lost and should start getting over it. You've got 12 months, which should be enough to get the counselling you need.