Les reed ultimately to blame?

[Mr X]

An ultimatum was given to koeman sign an extension or go

 

Why did we not let koeman see out his last year? That way we would have got one more season and still had plenty of time to look for his eventual successor was it purely for a bit of compensation?

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/06/17/everton-manager-ronald-koeman-southampton-ultimatum-forced-me-ou/

[farawaysaint]

Sure, but then you need to give him credit for 5 great years. He is ultimately responsible for all football decisions.

 

He is very much in the black as far as I'm concerned.

[eelpie]

Now is not the time to make presumptions of blame. It is a complicated series of events and causes.

[doddisalegend]

An ultimatum was given to koeman sign an extension or go

 

Why did we not let koeman see out his last year? That way we would have got one more season and still had plenty of time to look for his eventual successor was it purely for a bit of compensation?

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/06/17/everton-manager-ronald-koeman-southampton-ultimatum-forced-me-ou/

 

really? you cant see why that might have caused problems?

[SaintDan]

Les Reed needs to remain accountable until the end of the transfer window when it's back to the football and we have to work with what we've got. He is more than willing to come out with statements that everything is rosey but has not spoken up once since Koeman left when all the fans wanted were reassurances.

 

In reality if it was all in hand the Koeman saga would have been resolved by the last game of the season giving us further options with regards to Rafa and Rodgers.

 

That being said we've improved year on year for 7 years now so let's just sit back and let him do his job, he has earned the right for fans trust.

[Window Cleaner]

Really doesn't make pleasant reading, perhaps it's less than factual.

[Fan The Flames]

An ultimatum was given to koeman sign an extension or go

 

Why did we not let koeman see out his last year? That way we would have got one more season and still had plenty of time to look for his eventual successor was it purely for a bit of compensation?

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/06/17/everton-manager-ronald-koeman-southampton-ultimatum-forced-me-ou/

 

 

Wha wha wha it's all his fault. Ffs grow up.

[S-Clarke]

Anyone who cannot see the issues associated with an uncommitted manager sticking around for 1 more year is a bit dim.

[SuperSAINT]

Wouldn't be a summer without a Les Reed thread.

 

The Les Reed See-Saw is currently down on the "negative" side. I expect it to tip to the positive side soon enough.

[Nordic Saint]

An ultimatum was given to koeman sign an extension or go

 

Why did we not let koeman see out his last year? That way we would have got one more season and still had plenty of time to look for his eventual successor was it purely for a bit of compensation?

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/06/17/everton-manager-ronald-koeman-southampton-ultimatum-forced-me-ou/

 

"The FA and England

 

In 1998 Reed rejoined the FA as part of the England national coaching setup under Kevin Keegan. During Euro 2000, Keegan allowed Reed to respond to virtually all the tactical questions posed by the English press after England's defeat by Portugal. Many journalists wondered in their columns how a manager and his coaching team had allowed a minor member of their entourage such an important role.

 

In his autobiography, Gerrard: My Autobiography, Liverpool captain Steven Gerrard said that he had "no respect" for Les Reed after the way he treated him during England's Euro 2000 campaign. Gerard wrote, "To this day, I have no respect for Reed"

 

In 2002 Reed replaced Howard Wilkinson as the FA's Technical Director. During his second spell at the FA he authored the FA's official coaching manual, The Official FA Guide to Basic Team Coaching ,but he was sacked by the FA in 2004.

 

Charlton Athletic

 

Reed worked for a time as a consultant. He returned to Charlton to become Iain Dowie's assistant manager in summer 2006. Dowie was sacked on 14 November 2006 and Reed was promoted to replace him. During his six-week spell as manager Reed managed just one victory, and Charlton were knocked out of the League Cup by Football League Two side Wycombe Wanderers. Reed's spell at Charlton became infamous, as the media attacked him frequently, nicknaming him "Les Misérables" and "Santa Clueless",[8] and he was later voted in an unofficial online poll "the worst manager of all time". He was replaced as manager by Alan Pardew on 24 December, leaving Charlton Athletic by mutual consent.

 

Reed is a cuckoo in the nest. He was brought in by Cortese and he was the first one he stabbed in the back. One way or another, since then he has got rid of nearly all the people who were responsible for the club's success over the last few years: the players, the managers, the coaches and the staff. Now, he is getting credit for their work, especially that of the managers, the head of recruitment, Paul Mitchell and the Academy coaches, Dodd and Williams. Gradually he seems to have assumed more and more power in the club until it has now reached the stage where he decides which players we buy and sell and tries to get involved in team selection. Pride comes before a fall.

[Window Cleaner]

Wouldn't be a summer without a Les Reed thread.

 

The Les Reed See-Saw is currently down on the "negative" side. I expect it to tip to the positive side soon enough.

 

Yep, got our Les Reed thread, now all we need to make a summer are a few swallows, a bit of sun and distinctly less firkin rain...oh and some decent bowling from Hampshire.

[Fabrice29]

The FA and Charlton of course have prospered since the guy holding them back has left. Look he's got his critics but he's been nothing but near perfect for us so how anyone can start blaming him for something that hasn't happened yet is beyond me.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Anyone who cannot see the issues associated with an uncommitted manager sticking around for 1 more year is a bit dim.

 

This..

Sadly there are several on here who fit the "bit dim" description

[CB Fry]

An ultimatum was given to koeman sign an extension or go

 

Why did we not let koeman see out his last year? That way we would have got one more season and still had plenty of time to look for his eventual successor was it purely for a bit of compensation?

 

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/06/17/everton-manager-ronald-koeman-southampton-ultimatum-forced-me-ou/

And listen to an entire season and all next summer of people saying "what was Les Reed doing, fannying about and not tying our manager down, we've been weak and walked all over it was obvious his contract was running down we didn't even try etc etc etc etc"

 

People like you.

[Dellman]

Thanks Unce Les, I remember where we were when you joined us, some people seem to forget that, and look where we are now. It's just amazing! He deserves gratitude not groans

[Turkish]

Whatever goes right at saints is inspite of Les Reed, whatever goes wrong is because of him

 

Mongboard FACT

[Suhari]

Anyone who cannot see the issues associated with an uncommitted manager sticking around for 1 more year is a bit dim.

 

Absolutely.

 

We've got a plan, a direction. We need the manager to buy into that. If he's only interested in sticking around and seeing out his contract then it's time to go.

[Milton]

Anyone who cannot see the issues associated with an uncommitted manager sticking around for 1 more year is a bit dim.

 

Totally this!

[doddisalegend]

Whatever goes right at saints is inspite of Les Reed, whatever goes wrong is because of him

 

Mongboard FACT

 

The last few seasons have all been luck......but Les's luck will run out one day and then I will come on here and tell everyone I was right that the summer of 2014 would bite us on the arse one day.

[Gemmel]

Yes, Ultimately Les is to blame.

 

I blame him for back to back promotions, winning the JPT, 7 consecutive seasons finishing higher than the previous year, European football, fleecing every team that ones to buy one of our players and identifying and hiring two of the best managers this club has ever had.

 

So of course he is to blame, just let me know what petition to sign, what protest to join, whatever it takes to get the sh!tester out of our club.

[Saint IQ]

"The FA and England

 

In 1998 Reed rejoined the FA as part of the England national coaching setup under Kevin Keegan. During Euro 2000, Keegan allowed Reed to respond to virtually all the tactical questions posed by the English press after England's defeat by Portugal. Many journalists wondered in their columns how a manager and his coaching team had allowed a minor member of their entourage such an important role.

 

In his autobiography, Gerrard: My Autobiography, Liverpool captain Steven Gerrard said that he had "no respect" for Les Reed after the way he treated him during England's Euro 2000 campaign. Gerard wrote, "To this day, I have no respect for Reed"

 

In 2002 Reed replaced Howard Wilkinson as the FA's Technical Director. During his second spell at the FA he authored the FA's official coaching manual, The Official FA Guide to Basic Team Coaching ,but he was sacked by the FA in 2004.

 

Charlton Athletic

 

Reed worked for a time as a consultant. He returned to Charlton to become Iain Dowie's assistant manager in summer 2006. Dowie was sacked on 14 November 2006 and Reed was promoted to replace him. During his six-week spell as manager Reed managed just one victory, and Charlton were knocked out of the League Cup by Football League Two side Wycombe Wanderers. Reed's spell at Charlton became infamous, as the media attacked him frequently, nicknaming him "Les Misérables" and "Santa Clueless",[8] and he was later voted in an unofficial online poll "the worst manager of all time". He was replaced as manager by Alan Pardew on 24 December, leaving Charlton Athletic by mutual consent.

 

Reed is a cuckoo in the nest. He was brought in by Cortese and he was the first one he stabbed in the back. One way or another, since then he has got rid of nearly all the people who were responsible for the club's success over the last few years: the players, the managers, the coaches and the staff. Now, he is getting credit for their work, especially that of the managers, the head of recruitment, Paul Mitchell and the Academy coaches, Dodd and Williams. Gradually he seems to have assumed more and more power in the club until it has now reached the stage where he decides which players we buy and sell and tries to get involved in team selection. Pride comes before a fall.

 

Tries to get involved in team selection?

[Saint Pete]

Anyone who cannot see the issues associated with an uncommitted manager sticking around for 1 more year is a bit dim.

 

Yep. Koeman's account pretty much confirms what I thought was probably going on all along.

 

Koeman was happy to see out the final year and then see what offers came in for him at that point, whereas Saints/Les (quite rightly in my opinion) felt that this would be a difficult situation to manage through the season with a manager who was not prepared to commit beyond the end of the season. In the mean time, Everton's interest firmed up and this offered both sides (Koeman and Saints) a way out.

 

Personally, I don't think either Les or Koeman did anything wrong in this situation.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Tries to get involved in team selection?

 

This Nordi ck saint is a weird one

[Marching Halos]

Les reed is most likely ultimately to blame - Yes

 

so that all the credit also goes to Les reed when we win the league.

 

(you dont let a manager enter his last year of contact, and an ultimatum is need, Ronald choose 3-years with everton over more-years more with saints.)

 

my point i guess is Ronald is to blame for him leaving.

[eelpie]

Les has overseen success for his ultimate line manager, Katherina who has instructed him that SFC must live within its means, and balance sheets will always risk the fine line of success or failure on the pitch. I don't think it is a bad thing for Les and co to be aware of supporters views - but ultimately we have not done badly from management decisions so far (and compare with Lowe's later catastrophes!). We don't know whether earlier prospective managers were asking the impossible. Maybe Les might have been erring on caution, and perhaps Pellegrini and Koeman etc were demanding the impossible. But ffs we don't want the likes of an 'arry appointed or repeats of our relegation years. It's difficult being patient, but we have to.

[Saint Pete]

Les reed is most likely ultimately to blame - Yes

 

so that all the credit also goes to Les reed when we win the league.

 

(you dont let a manager enter his last year of contact, and an ultimatum is need, Ronald choose 3-years with everton over more-years more with saints.)

 

my point i guess is Ronald is to blame for him leaving.

 

 

Yes, in the sense that it was ultimately his choice. He had an offer of a new contract from Saints and an offer from Everton - whatever his reasons were, it was his choice which one he went with.

[View From The Top]

Nordic Saint and Mr X; Colossal bedwetting clueless co_cks.

[Monk]

The FA and Charlton of course have prospered since the guy holding them back has left. Look he's got his critics but he's been nothing but near perfect for us so how anyone can start blaming him for something that hasn't happened yet is beyond me.

 

Yes, The FA's education and effect on standard of coaching has dramatically increased.

[eelpie]

Yep. Koeman's account pretty much confirms what I thought was probably going on all along.

 

Koeman was happy to see out the final year and then see what offers came in for him at that point, whereas Saints/Les (quite rightly in my opinion) felt that this would be a difficult situation to manage through the season with a manager who was not prepared to commit beyond the end of the season. In the mean time, Everton's interest firmed up and this offered both sides (Koeman and Saints) a way out.

 

Personally, I don't think either Les or Koeman did anything wrong in this situation.

 

My view too. I think it is churlish to blame Koeman for having no sensible choice other than to negotiate best terms with Everton, neither to blame Les Read for forcing the outcome, in the circumstances. I don't rate RK for wailing to the press saying he was forced out though.

[ADutchSaint]

Anyone who cannot see the issues associated with an uncommitted manager sticking around for 1 more year is a bit dim.

 

Well ill bite then, what issues? Everybody in here talks about issues that would come up but i dont see anyone mentioning a single issue. I see far less issues with that then having to replace your manager on short notice in this time of the year where your preparing the pre-season and talking with players while not having a manager yet.

 

And whats with this committing stuff anyway? Why do you have to be committed long term to do your job? Or do you think a manager (or player) is going to half ass the last year of his contract cause he's going to leave anyway? Nobody with ambition is going to do that.

[hutch]

So that exposes the huge lie that Koeman handed in his resignation. And that Everton paid compensation for poaching him before the end of his contract. I've completely lost faith in the entire board for lying to us like that.

 

When does poor Les's case for unfair dismissal come up at the tribunal?

[Toadhall Saint]

Thanks Unce Les, I remember where we were when you joined us, some people seem to forget that, and look where we are now. It's just amazing! He deserves gratitude not groans

 

Absolutely 100% this

[BallBoy]

In our working lives I suspect that we have all seen senior managers like Les Reed. They are very good at taking credit when things go well but go missing when things do not go well. They ride on the backs of the staff who actually get the results.

 

I have no doubt that Reed is a very capable, intelligent man but I think his luck will run out eventually. Unfortunately that means the club will suffer. So I hope I am wrong but my gut feeling is that we are unlikely to progress from where we are now as long as we are relying on the academy continuing to produce as it has in the past. Koeman was realistic enough to deduce that the tap has run dry for the moment. Unless we suddenly produce another golden generation then the "Southampton (Reed) Way" cannot take us forward.

 

It looks as though we have rejected Pellegrini in favour of Puel because he "ticks the (Reed) boxes". That is a massive gamble.

 

As a fan I hope it works and Reed lives another day. I just can't see it.

[mini_me]

ll "the worst manager of all time"[/b]

Reed is a cuckoo in the nest. He was brought in by Cortese and he was the first one he stabbed in the back

 

This is 100% incorrect.

[Give it to Ron]

This is 100% incorrect.

 

So all the success is in spite of Reed? Just one question then who appointed all the staff? Obviously Les had nothing to do with that?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[shurlock]

Anyone who cannot see the issues associated with an uncommitted manager sticking around for 1 more year is a bit dim.

 

That argument is completely overdone. But glad to see you dimly parroting it.

 

For the sake of his reputation and career prospects, Koeman would have had every incentive to complete his contract on a high. Memories are short in football and you tend to be judged by only your most recent performance.

Edited 25 June, 2016 by shurlock

[kermitsaint]

Now this has come out will all the hysterical cries of hate and sharpening of knives stop ?

 

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

[tajjuk]

I don't really see the issue with this, they asked Koeman to commit, he didn't so they said go. Our whole club's revival has been built on sound planning and planning for all eventualities. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask you manager to commit to the future when he's only got one year left.

 

IMO better to get him gone now so we can have stability now for 3-4 years, rather than a year of instability, will he won't he, players not knowing what's happened etc. for a year, then having to get a new manager. Imagine if he stayed then in January Luis Enrique says he is stepping down as Barca coach end of season, then we get speculation over Koeman, he potentially signs pre-contract with Barca, he loses focus, players lose focus and we waste a season going backwards.

 

To be honest this just looks like his spin on the whole holding the club to ransom to me, he tried to bluff for a better contract and found out he's not as good as he thinks he is. Quite easy to cover it up with this 'ultimatum' excuse and our board are too professional to comment.

 

The club's official statement when he left speaks volumes to me, Koeman mucked the club around and tried to play us and it backfired. He's made his bed and he can lie in it, will be fun watching them fail next season, that squad they have is not good enough for top 6 at all and it'll only get worse once the better players go.

[PhilippineSaint]

"The FA and England

 

In 1998 Reed rejoined the FA as part of the England national coaching setup under Kevin Keegan. During Euro 2000, Keegan allowed Reed to respond to virtually all the tactical questions posed by the English press after England's defeat by Portugal. Many journalists wondered in their columns how a manager and his coaching team had allowed a minor member of their entourage such an important role.

 

In his autobiography, Gerrard: My Autobiography, Liverpool captain Steven Gerrard said that he had "no respect" for Les Reed after the way he treated him during England's Euro 2000 campaign. Gerard wrote, "To this day, I have no respect for Reed"

 

In 2002 Reed replaced Howard Wilkinson as the FA's Technical Director. During his second spell at the FA he authored the FA's official coaching manual, The Official FA Guide to Basic Team Coaching ,but he was sacked by the FA in 2004.

 

Charlton Athletic

 

Reed worked for a time as a consultant. He returned to Charlton to become Iain Dowie's assistant manager in summer 2006. Dowie was sacked on 14 November 2006 and Reed was promoted to replace him. During his six-week spell as manager Reed managed just one victory, and Charlton were knocked out of the League Cup by Football League Two side Wycombe Wanderers. Reed's spell at Charlton became infamous, as the media attacked him frequently, nicknaming him "Les Misérables" and "Santa Clueless",[8] and he was later voted in an unofficial online poll "the worst manager of all time". He was replaced as manager by Alan Pardew on 24 December, leaving Charlton Athletic by mutual consent.

 

Reed is a cuckoo in the nest. He was brought in by Cortese and he was the first one he stabbed in the back. One way or another, since then he has got rid of nearly all the people who were responsible for the club's success over the last few years: the players, the managers, the coaches and the staff. Now, he is getting credit for their work, especially that of the managers, the head of recruitment, Paul Mitchell and the Academy coaches, Dodd and Williams. Gradually he seems to have assumed more and more power in the club until it has now reached the stage where he decides which players we buy and sell and tries to get involved in team selection. Pride comes before a fall.

 

What did Les do to you to make you so bitter and twisted?

 

Have you the facts to back up all the accusations in the above statement?

 

Well apart from the Charlton Athletic bit which is true.

[Daft Kerplunk]

No blame from me for Koeman. This was what was going to happen and (from the ITK posts) the club didn't want him to stay. This was a potential good thing if we were prepared with an alternative, which currently is taking longer than was probably wanted.

[S-Clarke]

That argument is completely overdone. But glad to see you dimly parroting it.

 

For the sake of his reputation and career prospects, Koeman would have had every incentive to complete his contract on a high. Memories are short in football and you tend to be judged by only your most recent performance.

 

It's true though.

 

He may have wanted to end on a high, but that wouldn't stop the media asking about his future every.single.week. That wouldn't stop potential signings asking the question ''But what happens next summer?'. The club looked at what was more damaging to their prospects and having an uncommitted manager who was off next season probably pipped it.

[Batman]

It's true though.

 

He may have wanted to end on a high, but that wouldn't stop the media asking about his future every.single.week. That wouldn't stop potential signings asking the question ''But what happens next summer?'. The club looked at what was more damaging to their prospects and having an uncommitted manager who was off next season probably pipped it.

 

but the next summer question by new signings would be daft. Don't see any other premier league club with a churn of first team people as we do

[pluto]

It would have been total carnage, if Koeman was allowed to enter his final year going into a new season. The media would be jumping up and down on a weekly basis and it would have all damaged the club tenfold. The option was to sign a new contract with a release clause, but he wouldnt sign, why ? The fact is Reed has been heavily involved in two promotions, and two best ever PL finishes. That of course still doesnt give him a 100% 'get out of jail free card' because football is about the 'here and now'. We are currently in a 'anxiety vacumm' because we have no manager and lets just see how things roll along until end of July.

[Toadhall Saint]

Don't know what to make of this. Never heard any real evidence managers don't get on with him. Why should him being a rubbish manager at Charlton mean he's rubbish at all other jobs? He seems to do a good job for us, we've improved immeasurably since he arrived. Yes, there's a chance he's a charlatan and he's taken credit for others and it's purely coincidence we've done so well with him here. Seems a little unlikely though.

 

I think his main problem is he comes across as a bit old school the way he talks, his FA history and so on. I don't see much in reality to blame him for. We sell players who won't sign new contracts for big money. We try to make managers commit and if they won't then maybe they'll go. He gets asked about potential player sales and manager situation and says we're offering good new deals and are hopeful. What else can you say? If he says no comment or avoids interviews we probably moan about lack of information. There's some PR garbage like any other business or industry of course, but overall I'm not sure we have much to complain about. But maybe that's the problem. There's no obvious target, things have gone well and our setbacks are actually expected and understandable. Players and managers are drawn to big clubs, big money etc. So we look for blame, hate Pochetinno, Koeman, Lallana, Reed, whoever, because it's harder to accept it's probably always going to be that way, and success for us will be replacing players and managers well.

 

Personally I never wanted to support a massive club. I'm delighted with where we are and want to see us stay up there, compete for cups, produce good young players and play good football. I'm fine with Liverpool thinking they're huge. Sounds awful to me, expecting titles every season and never getting it. Expecting your team to win every game and being disappointed. We don't have Liverpool's history or money, but thankfully we also don't have their bitterness or delusion. Let's not start trying to compete on that.

 

[emoji106][emoji122][emoji56]

[Ken Tone]

Don't know why the OP has started this thread today with a week old article ,but since that was published I thought we'd been told that Koeman was offered a new contract that included a break clause after one year ..... I'm presuming a clause that allowed him to go under certain conditions ,eg Barcelona or Arsenal wanted him.

 

if that was the case, then it seems eminently reasonable to me.

[angelman]

Now I am a little confused, so maybe the OP could explain it to me. I was under the impression that Rk had 1 year left on his contract. I was under the impression that he resigned. Was that the case or not?

[St.JonB]

It's true though.

 

He may have wanted to end on a high, but that wouldn't stop the media asking about his future every.single.week. That wouldn't stop potential signings asking the question ''But what happens next summer?'. The club looked at what was more damaging to their prospects and having an uncommitted manager who was off next season probably pipped it.

 

But this is our policy with players. We all know when some of our better players will be leaving but hope they stay committed for their final season. Not so sure its different for a manager?

[Saint Benali]

Maybe I am a bit dim but something doesn't add up with the Koeman thing. If he said he wanted to finish his last season but was told he needed to sign a new deal why did we get compensation? Surely if he was not going to sign we would of had to sack him?

[Professor]

We have been extremely fortunate to have Les Reed. After all he has achieved this quite a distasteful thread and only adding to it to say I'm sorry it was started.

[Saint-Fred]

Personally I didn't see the harm in RK seeing out his contract however many (probably the majority) did and said it was unacceptable for him to go into his last year without signing a new one. i would assume all of those posters would support Reed and his actions 100% so no I can't see they would to see him held to account.