Pre-Season (2016/17)

[washsaint]

When will you and many others like you realise that pre season is about the process. It is all about re-learning patterns of movement and getting used to any new tactics which clearly there will be with a new manager, albeit not a major change.

The team has two more weeks of "training" and all of the main players will be back this week. Plus of course we will sign 2-3 new players to freshen it up even more.

The kids looked OK 2nd half but I would be surprised if any are going to have a major impact this season. Sure a few will no doubt play in the JPT and possibly the League Cup but other than Reed I doubt many will have very many premier league minutes.

 

 

 

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Its all very well being very supportive and positive (which I normally am - the CLub has done wonders these last few years). However, that should not blind you to what is right in front of you.

 

Of course pre-season is not the be all and end all. But do you not find it worrying that against average opposition Saints have created maybe 3 or 4 chances in the last 2 games? With players like Austin receiving the ball deep in our own half - not in the box where he is predatory - this is not going to create chances.

 

Tadic looked terrible today - I just hope Puel is flexible in his tactics and thinking but from his past that does not necessarily seem to be the case.

[James]

Saw the friendly, pretty awful.

 

Now watching last year's review that came free with the shirt. Boy oh boy do we need to bolster our attacking options. It's as if the board have forgotten how many goals Mane and Pelle provided us with last year...

 

Long is great and Austin's got a decent record but JRod looks a shadow of his former self thus far so we're relying on those two really.

 

If anyone thinks Redmond will replace Mane they are deluded. Teams backed off us so much last year because they were petrified of Mane's pace, we need a pacy attacker to do the same for us next year and we just don't have that at the moment.

 

Also, slightly concerned about how exposed the defence will be without some muscle in midfield...those early games against Newcastle, Everton etc. were just horrendous as our midfield was too lightweight.

[Slugger]

Hard to read too much into pre season games, although lack of creativity a slight concern.

 

Next weeks games with Davis and Bertrand back, less subs and strong opposition will be a much better indication of where we are.

[Andy Durman]

If you didn't watch then you seriously didn't miss anything. At every level we have been working on a 4-2-3-1 system and now at every level we need to change to 4-diamond-2. VVD is class. Hojbjberg and Romeu looking good and Hesketh also showing signs that he could be involved this season. The rest just looked utterly confused. 4 wins means nothing. We were very ineffective in the final third and just seemed to have too many players in midfield. The opponent we giving too much freedom to come into our half in the first half.

[Spoonman]

Hard to read too much into pre season games, although lack of creativity a slight concern.

 

Next weeks games with Davis and Bertrand back, less subs and strong opposition will be a much better indication of where we are.

This. Our starting line up will be very different in a few weeks time, but the lack of chances made and the general lack of fluidity in the final third is a worry.

[suewhistle]

A few random thoughts.. what was up with Tadic, nothing went right for him and his touch constantly let him down. Perhaps it was the tiredness Puel talked about? Hojbjerg looks the business and has a bit of steel about him as well. Good to see Austin getting the sort of goal we expect him to. Both our full-backs can control the ball when it gets to them courtesy of a long pass, but their crossing lacked a bit. The kid Yan Valery looks like he's got what it takes and both Alfie Jones and Turnbull were able to cope easily with that level of opposition. Reed will do a decent job for us when called upon. Gallagher had a few touches but he still looks as if he hasn't quite grown into his body yet.

 

It was a bit flat as a game and it's a shame the referee had to send the guy off: I don't think Saints would have wished that. I presume Bertrand wasn't even on the bench after the sports science guys ran the rule over him. Perhaps he suffered depression from having to suffer Roy's training methods?

[MarkSFC]

Its all very well being very supportive and positive (which I normally am - the CLub has done wonders these last few years). However, that should not blind you to what is right in front of you.

 

Of course pre-season is not the be all and end all. But do you not find it worrying that against average opposition Saints have created maybe 3 or 4 chances in the last 2 games? With players like Austin receiving the ball deep in our own half - not in the box where he is predatory - this is not going to create chances.

 

Tadic looked terrible today - I just hope Puel is flexible in his tactics and thinking but from his past that does not necessarily seem to be the case.

 

No I don't find it worrying. Like I said it's a process and it would seem like Puels process is firstly about shape and then defending, attacking will come last in that process. If I'm proven wrong come end of September and we have hardly scored feel free to have a pop!!

I did think today though that the pitch looked very slow, grass a bit long and possibly not watered so swift passing although attempted on occasion was not the best option.

 

 

 

 

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[derry]

4-3-3 against Zwolle then switched to this diamond. When I see a manager shoe horning players into formations that neuters most of them against mediocre opposition I question his ability more than the players. Last year we were very effective, we finished the season with a great run but have lost Wanyama and Mane replaced by Redmond and Hojberg. I would have thought unless unfit Rodriguez would have played as much as possible.

 

I question a manager that comes into the Premier for the first time and changes what works in a team that finishes sixth and tries to impose a system rather than seeing how the established way of playing familiar to the players worked. I think he is treading on dangerous ground this isn't the French league. I don't get the diamond being used with mixed teams.

 

These last two games albeit with pickup teams have been poor, the ball meandering around the field and familiar players who we know are better players looking totally lost. If we play this system with one holding midfielder and the full backs pushing up we will get murdered by teams sticking the balls in behind the full backs with runners exposing the centre backs. Bournemouth showed how away last season.

[Slugger]

We were diamond against Zwolle. Same formation in all the games so far.

[Batman]

If we play this system with one holding midfielder and the full backs pushing up we will get murdered by teams sticking the balls in behind the full backs with runners exposing the centre backs. Bournemouth showed how away last season.

 

the point I made further up.

but obviously, got told I am wrong.

 

none of the midfielders who would play in the holding role or a 3 are powerhouses and/or quick

[derry]

Austin, Rodriguez and Redmond played up front in a 4-3-3.

[saint lard]

We've been atrocious in the final third for season upon season....lots of fannying about but no end product.

Can we address this please.

 

 

 

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[Slugger]

Austin, Rodriguez and Redmond played up front in a 4-3-3.

Redmond was behind Austin and Jay Rod, not out wide.

[S-Clarke]

We've been atrocious in the final third for season upon season....lots of fannying about but no end product.

Can we address this please.

 

 

 

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Well, we clearly haven't been atrocious. We finished 8th, 7th and 6th. You can't be atrocious in the final third and finish that high.

[Batman]

Well, we clearly haven't been atrocious. We finished 8th, 7th and 6th. You can't be atrocious in the final third and finish that high.

 

I think we are going to regress a fair bit on the defensive record that has been our bedrock in the last few years.

if we don't get a quality replacement for Mane, just cannot see us being as good going forward.

 

we'll do alright I guess

[derry]

Redmond was behind Austin and Jay Rod, not out wide.

 

He scored both his goals coming in from the right. He wasn't playing behind Austin.

[Slugger]

He scored both his goals coming in from the right. He wasn't playing behind Austin.

Its a flexible position, doesn't mean you have to literally be behind the striker the whole time.

 

All the games so far have seen the diamond used, with a no10 player given a certain amount of license to roam, as Redmond did in that game when for large spells he was in a central position and certainly not a winger in a 4-3-3.

[washsaint]

Batman wtf - regress on the defensive side if we don't replace Mane? The defence is not the concern. 3 of the usual back 4 were not playing today and Pierre looks, albeit early, an upgrade on Wanyama. If anything I think we'll be more solid at the back than last year.

 

It is up front I am concerned about - chances look like they will be few and far between.

[Batman]

Batman wtf - regress on the defensive side if we don't replace Mane? The defence is not the concern. 3 of the usual back 4 were not playing today and Pierre looks, albeit early, an upgrade on Wanyama. If anything I think we'll be more solid at the back than last year.

 

It is up front I am concerned about - chances look like they will be few and far between.

where have I said that?

[Give it to Ron]

where have I said that?

 

Post 467

that was dire

 

i think we will let more in than we are used to, next season

 

 

 

 

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[Batman]

Post 467

 

 

 

 

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where have I said that would happen as a result of not replacing Mane?

[Give it to Ron]

where have I said that would happen as a result of not replacing Mane?

 

You have baffled me sorry it was in your posts like 524 you said we would concede more then went on about Mane which most agree with they read as linked

 

 

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[a1ex2001]

Someone needs to tell the boss we play 4-2-3-1 as a club and to get with the program as that is what the squad suits I thought it would have been made clear in the interview it makes no sense to me employing a manager who wants to play a different way to the whole club is setup!

[ADutchSaint]

I don't know how it looked on the tv but it didnt look great from inside the stadium. It looked slow, sloppy and it was somewhere at the end of the first half when I saw a little bit of pressure for the first time.

 

I expected a bit more so I'll be honest and i was more focused on drinking beer and goofing around after 50/60 minutes. Decent goal tho and man, i forgot how big Virgil is... Hard to imagine that he played at the other side only a few seasons ago.

 

Maybe the players had some hard training sessions this week and of course a few players are still missing but going forward it was pretty poor today.

[eelpie]

4-3-3 against Zwolle then switched to this diamond. When I see a manager shoe horning players into formations that neuters most of them against mediocre opposition I question his ability more than the players. Last year we were very effective, we finished the season with a great run but have lost Wanyama and Mane replaced by Redmond and Hojberg. I would have thought unless unfit Rodriguez would have played as much as possible.

 

I question a manager that comes into the Premier for the first time and changes what works in a team that finishes sixth and tries to impose a system rather than seeing how the established way of playing familiar to the players worked. I think he is treading on dangerous ground this isn't the French league. I don't get the diamond being used with mixed teams.

 

These last two games albeit with pickup teams have been poor, the ball meandering around the field and familiar players who we know are better players looking totally lost. If we play this system with one holding midfielder and the full backs pushing up we will get murdered by teams sticking the balls in behind the full backs with runners exposing the centre backs. Bournemouth showed how away last season.

 

Perhaps the intention is that players become very adept and familiar with this defensive diamond system to use when the need arises, but that it will not exclude other more attacking styles. It's early days. Puel has to see a wide pool of players in action to assess capabilities, and he may well have come to a similar conclusion.

 

I'm curious about how we played in the second half with younger players in a more open and attacking style. He must have directed this. It wasn't tidy at the back then but we did score. Let's see what happens next week when we have a full squad to choose from.

[doddisalegend]

Someone needs to tell the boss we play 4-2-3-1 as a club and to get with the program as that is what the squad suits I thought it would have been made clear in the interview it makes no sense to me employing a manager who wants to play a different way to the whole club is setup!

 

like last season when we played a whole load of games with 5 at the back?

[austsaint]

Very impressed with Hesketh...great tracking back and lovely cross for the goal

 

Good to read that. Was it last season or the one before when Hesketh started and looked good in a couple of games before being injured against Man U.

[Saint-Armstrong]

[LGTL]

Good to read that. Was it last season or the one before when Hesketh started and looked good in a couple of games before being injured against Man U.

 

Think it was Burnley away where he played for 20 minutes, got a bad tackle and went off crying. He did look decent but hopefully bulked up a bit now.

[david in sweden]

Think it was Burnley away where he played for 20 minutes, got a bad tackle and went off crying.

He did look decent but hopefully bulked up a bit now.

 

I watched that game on line and the (Burnley) tackle was really disgusting, and enough to make anyone's eyes water.....was worth a red card!

[Sour Mash]

4-3-3 against Zwolle then switched to this diamond. When I see a manager shoe horning players into formations that neuters most of them against mediocre opposition I question his ability more than the players. Last year we were very effective, we finished the season with a great run but have lost Wanyama and Mane replaced by Redmond and Hojberg. I would have thought unless unfit Rodriguez would have played as much as possible.

 

I question a manager that comes into the Premier for the first time and changes what works in a team that finishes sixth and tries to impose a system rather than seeing how the established way of playing familiar to the players worked. I think he is treading on dangerous ground this isn't the French league. I don't get the diamond being used with mixed teams.

 

These last two games albeit with pickup teams have been poor, the ball meandering around the field and familiar players who we know are better players looking totally lost. If we play this system with one holding midfielder and the full backs pushing up we will get murdered by teams sticking the balls in behind the full backs with runners exposing the centre backs. Bournemouth showed how away last season.

 

Which players do you think have looked totally lost?

[Andy Durman]

Which players do you think have looked totally lost?

 

Clasie, JWP, Tadic, Redmond and Long all struggled yesterday with the system.

 

The wings also didn't take on the full backs.

 

We played very conservative, negative, safe, which is why we were poor in the final third.

 

It was like we were scared to make a mistake.

 

Reed and Gallacher gave the ball away too many times in dangerous positions

[way down south]

Well, the game was boring, and it looked like our first pre season game and not our 4th, but IMO I don't think the players have a clear idea of what puel wants them to do. I think they'll get it as they play more games together but I'm just scared that it'll cost us points while theyre trying to adjust to the new system, might also result in sh*tty nights away in Europa. Also i think for this system to actually work, puel literally needs a ben arfa, he was THE reason nice were so fantastic last season. Tadic is not it as he cant manouver in thight spaces and turn defenders inside out and create space, redmond possibly but hes better outwide rather than central IMO, so that leaves a new signing who would be our ben arfa. Boufal would be perfect (from his youtube clips) he is extremely similar in style to ben arfa with the close control and eye for goal/pass and taking oppo defenders out of the equation. So I hope to god we get someone in that mould, otherwise this system won't work as well as it did at nice and we're in for disappointment this season.

[Sour Mash]

Clasie, JWP, Tadic, Redmond and Long all struggled yesterday with the system.

 

The wings also didn't take on the full backs.

 

We played very conservative, negative, safe, which is why we were poor in the final third.

 

It was like we were scared to make a mistake.

 

Reed and Gallacher gave the ball away too many times in dangerous positions

Not sure why you've quoted my post?

[ally_uk]

Looked clueless I can inderstand that players need to adjust but the season is about to kick off. Get the cheque book out and get a decent Mane replacement now,

[angelman]

Out of interest, how would getting the cheque book out stop the team looking clueless?

[Window Cleaner]

Looked clueless I can inderstand that players need to adjust but the season is about to kick off. Get the cheque book out and get a decent Mane replacement now,

 

I don't doubt that once we get our real players back into action we'll look far less "clueless".

It's wannabee run out time and our actual side won't look much like that which plays in these build up games.

[St.JonB]

We've been atrocious in the final third for season upon season....lots of fannying about but no end product.

Can we address this please.

 

 

 

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Yeah remember that game against Sunderland when we only scored 8? So frustrating!

[Window Cleaner]

Yeah remember that game against Sunderland when we only scored 8? So frustrating!

 

But the first goal was a fair while coming and even then it was a wild deflection of an off target shot. Seemed to boost our confidence and totally destroy Sunderland's.

[SW5 SAINT]

where have I said that?

 

 

Post 524

[saint lard]

Yeah remember that game against Sunderland when we only scored 8? So frustrating!

 

Christ.....I think anyone could cherry pick one game where it all clicked.....especially against an appalling Sunderland.

 

We lack creativity in the final third,and have done for a while.

The number of times it all slows down....goes sideways or backwards has cost us in games we should've won or even got a point out of. And now we lost Mane,someone that had atleast one ounce of pace and daring has gone.

We look impotent in the final third and for quite sometime.

 

 

 

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[S-Clarke]

Christ.....I think anyone could cherry pick one game where it all clicked.....especially against an appalling Sunderland.

 

We lack creativity in the final third,and have done for a while.

The number of times it all slows down....goes sideways or backwards has cost us in games we should've won or even got a point out of. And now we lost Mane,someone that had atleast one ounce of pace and daring has gone.

We look impotent in the final third and for quite sometime.

 

 

 

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We can't be impotent up top if we finished in the top 6. Palace were impotent, so were Norwich.

 

We can have room for improvement, for sure, as everything can - but impotent and abysmal are ridiculous words to use.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Christ.....I think anyone could cherry pick one game where it all clicked.....especially against an appalling Sunderland.

 

We lack creativity in the final third,and have done for a while.

The number of times it all slows down....goes sideways or backwards has cost us in games we should've won or even got a point out of. And now we lost Mane,someone that had atleast one ounce of pace and daring has gone.

We look impotent in the final third and for quite sometime.

 

 

 

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We can't be impotent up top if we finished in the top 6. Palace were impotent, so were Norwich.

 

We can have room for improvement, for sure, as everything can - but impotent and abysmal are ridiculous words to use.

 

Ridiculous summary by Lardy, you are right S Clarke, how high would we have finished if we were potent?

[Matthew Le God]

Christ.....I think anyone could cherry pick one game where it all clicked.....especially against an appalling Sunderland.

 

We lack creativity in the final third,and have done for a while.

The number of times it all slows down....goes sideways or backwards has cost us in games we should've won or even got a point out of. And now we lost Mane,someone that had atleast one ounce of pace and daring has gone.

We look impotent in the final third and for quite sometime.

 

Utterly bizarre!

 

- we came 6th and were the 7th highest scorers in the Premier League

 

How is that "impotent in the final third"?

[ALWAYS_SFC]

We were impotent. We did need a little something extra to improve, but we weren't impotent. But we've lost a major striker option and our most talented attacker, so right now we are pretty impotent.

 

There's little point dwelling on the team that finished 6th, it's about the present and this season. It's an anxious start because we have a really good basis of a team that with a couple of good attacking signings could challenge for top 6 again, but without them like most clubs we'd be a couple of injuries from a very difficult season.

 

Really?? Strange logic there, 7th highest scorers in the division...christ how bad were the other 13...

 

Anxious start? we have`nt started yet

[derry]

Clasie, JWP, Tadic, Redmond and Long all struggled yesterday with the system.

 

The wings also didn't take on the full backs.

 

We played very conservative, negative, safe, which is why we were poor in the final third.

 

It was like we were scared to make a mistake.

 

Reed and Gallacher gave the ball away too many times in dangerous positions

 

You can add Austin to that list. Good answer.

[saint1977]

We can't be impotent up top if we finished in the top 6. Palace were impotent, so were Norwich.

 

We can have room for improvement, for sure, as everything can - but impotent and abysmal are ridiculous words to use.

 

That's minus Mane and the current formation being experimented with doesn't help Tadic who were two of the key contributors of the strong end to last season. But that's last season and we start on 0 in August same as everyone else. Once we've got another pacy amc or striker in, not sure you can replace Mane as his value was his unpredictability, some of the more stressy posts might ease. Puel will be looking for a new signing who can have a Ben Arfa like effect.

 

I'm not too concerned as some of our big guns are still reintegrating post Euros. Hopefully we'll see accompanying transfer activity in those forward areas to accompany that and I think we will. Even with all the new contract extensions, we have the funds to be active.

[themasoon]

I would say that the difference between a 4-4-2 diamond and a 4-3-3 is very minimal, especially when Puel played with a very fluid 3 up top at Nice (2 strikers and top of diamond). He did say that the team were tired following a tough weeks training and I'll expect to see the three up top to be much more flexible with Redmond and tadic moving around, similar to what we did with Lallana lambert and Rodriguez under Pochettino. My one worry with this is whether it suits tadic but a fluid and flexible attack would hopefully give him more freedom like Ben arfa had at nice. With our preferred full backs providing the width as well I think this formation could be a success.

[James]

I would say that the difference between a 4-4-2 diamond and a 4-3-3 is very minimal, especially when Puel played with a very fluid 3 up top at Nice (2 strikers and top of diamond). He did say that the team were tired following a tough weeks training and I'll expect to see the three up top to be much more flexible with Redmond and tadic moving around, similar to what we did with Lallana lambert and Rodriguez under Pochettino. My one worry with this is whether it suits tadic but a fluid and flexible attack would hopefully give him more freedom like Ben arfa had at nice. With our preferred full backs providing the width as well I think this formation could be a success.

 

Agreed, I'm quite excited by the change of formation. Leicester played 4-4-2 to devastating effect last year. I think this system could suit Tadic, Long and Austin in time but yesterday indicated there's a way to go until it all clicks. My one concern is whether one can get away with playing a single holding midfielder in this league. Leicester managed it because they had the super human Kante winning the ball back high up the pitch. As good as Hojberg looks and as good as Romeu is I'm not sure either have the engine to pull of a "Kante".

[DJ_TOAST]

Sorry if it's been said, but what's up with the only option for tickets for the home friendlies being to collect from the ground. (on top of the £1 booking fee)

Huge queues before the game to look forward to then (me being included probably as I will be unable to get down there prior to the game...like most people I should imagine).

 

Why not stick it on peoples ST card like last year (for those with one) and save peoples time and paper too.